Many of us get frustrated with the slow pace of international action on climate change. But powerless as we feel, we can still make a difference by rethinking the way we design our lives.
Design is rarely considered when talking about climate change, yet is a significant factor in the economic activities and political decisions that are driving emissions higher.
The World Bank’s Turn Down the Heat report warns of the consequences of global temperatures rising by an average of four degrees Celcius by the end of this century.
Let us be clear about one thing – the prospect of a four-degree rise is a conservative prediction.
Many equally reasonable scientists believe it is likely we will face more dangerous changes than that, sooner than we think.
This is where designers and their employers, as well as consumers, have to share responsibility for dealing with climate change.
From handmade to mass production
For most of the past two centuries, design has been the handmaiden to industry.
Whether design has been framed as an applied art, an artisan craft guild tradition, or an industrial art, the purpose of design in an industrial context has been to encourage consumer choice and purchasing.
Public policy and education policy embraced this tradition in 1837 in the United Kingdom, when what is now the Royal College of Art was established as the Government School of Design.
This concept entered the public mind with the Great Exhibition of 1851. In Germany, the birth of the Bauhaus in 1919 was a key moment. In the United States, industrial design education began at the Carnegie Institute of Technology in the 1930s.
In all these places, the role of design was to encourage better-designed products for increased sales.
More people wanting more
Between 1900 and 1950, world population grew from just over one and a half billion people to nearly two and a half billion. In the next half century the population more than doubled, and today it stands at nearly seven billion.
Along the way, something else happened: the world’s wealthy economies shifted from production to consumption, and much of the world’s productive capacity shifted to meet demand.
The design profession had a key role in making products desirable.
At a time when production was the key to prosperity and growth – and while economic growth was seen as the road out of poverty, this made sense.
Back then, the world had enough environmental resources, or “carrying capacity”, to cope with our extra demand to permit growth.
In 1950, 70% of the world’s people lived in rural areas, and it wasn’t until 2008 that more people lived in cities than in rural areas.
A wealthy and growing middle class in North America and Europe powered global economic growth, while much of the world got by on far less.
Growing pains
Today, the problem is that the world economy is growing, and many of the seven billion people now alive want the lifestyle that was possible for half a billion in 1950.
By the 1960s, a handful of future-oriented designers understood the problem.
Buckminster Fuller studied the balance between global resources, population and opportunities. He came to the view that the world could support the full population of the time at a high level of comfort, based on comprehensive recycling and reuse of materials in an economy oriented toward values other than consumption.
At the same time, Victor Papanek began to ask why designers were making so many shabby products, focusing on style while wasting resources.
Designers such as Ezio Manzini, Anna Meroni, Tony Fry, and Jurgen Faust now continue the tradition, with encouragement from economists such as Nobel Laureate Muhammad Yunus and Grameen Lab, while economists such as Jeffrey Sachs look for solutions to sustainable development.
Built to last
The answer is simple. While we live in a world that requires economic growth, we do not recognise that economic growth requires sustainable development.
Rather than sell new products repeatedly to the same few wealthy consumers, we could achieve a different kind of growth by selling better and more durable products to larger groups of people.
The world requires a return to a productive ethos for economic growth linked to the reduced resource consumption that will make the world sustainable.
This may be a challenge, but designers can play their part in change by accepting their responsibilities for ethical engagement.
If the World Bank predictions are correct, we have less than half a century left and every year remaining in this half century counts.
I would like to believe that designers are prepared to move from consumption to sustainable development. The alternative is unimaginably worse.
Anthony Nolan
Ruminant
I can't believe what I just read:
"The answer is simple. While we live in a world that requires economic growth, we do not recognise that economic growth requires sustainable development."
Capitalist economics require economic growth. The world doesn't.
I like to believe that economists, politicians, journalists, academics and other public intellectuals will take the lead in a dialogue about the urgent need to overturn the fundamentals of capitalist economics. The alternative is unimaginably worse.
"...the tensions between ‘green growth’ and the ‘steady state’ continue to battle it out as the main models of an environmentally responsible economy. As the UN's Rio summit approaches, the question of whether economic growth can be reconciled with environmental constraints remains an open one."
http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/guy-shrubsole/green-growth-or-steady-state-rival-visions-of-green-economy
David Clerke
Teacher
As always the best leadership is by example, but do not expect the third world to follow.
Anthony Nolan
Ruminant
The third world should follow? We should be following Peru mate!
http://blogs.worldwatch.org/sustainableprosperity/sustainabilitysweetspot/
Ian L. McQueen
Retired
I realize that this article is meant to be concerned with matters of design but the article itself is based on assumptions that are questionable at best. Assumerism in action!
Read moreWe should note from the beginning that fear of "climate change" is misplaced. Climate has always been changing, is changing now, and probably always will be, so the words "climate change" are meaningless. "Global warming" is no better.
The purported four degrees Celsius (note spelling!) of the World Bank is based on nothing…
Anthony Nolan
Ruminant
@ Ian L McQueen.I find your take on science deeply reassuring. Ah, no thanks, I wont accept your offer of the kool aid.
John Phillip
John Phillip is a Friend of The Conversation.
Grumpy Old Man
Anthony, what the world requires is a negative rate of population growth (at least for a while). It doesn’t matter what standard of living we and the developing countries aspire to, at some point the carrying capacity of the Earth WILL be exceeded. Capitalism, communism, whatever is largely irrelevant in the long term. One system may reach the limits of that carrying capacity before the other(s) but in the end, the outcome will still be the same - a world largely bereft of accessible resources and flooded by the by-products of the use of those same resources.
Glenn Tamblyn
logged in via Facebook
John
The problem with trying to achieve a negative population growth rate (aside from a host of ethical issues associated with it) is that the decline in birth rate needed to acieve it has horrendous demographis implications.
China had it's 1 child policy for several decades and it was achieving results. Even so their population continued to rise, although slower than it would have if they adn'thad the policy. Because the point is that 1 child per couple still won't achieve negative growth…
Read moreTim Scanlon
Debunker
To quote David Suzuki: Perpetual growth cannot exist in a finite world.
It really is time that we addressed our flawed economic model. I remember my undergrad economics lecturer's response to my question about the growth model underlying our economy. I asked "We don't have infinite resources in the world, so how can we continue to have growth?", he replied "Technology will provide the next growth step."
Ever since I have had this cartoon on my office wall: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uTejckqN3C0/SsbdhhSdU6I/AAAAAAAAADo/uT-j8-ivj4k/s400/cartoon-technology.gif
Felix MacNeill
Environmental Manager
Tim, I understand what you and Anthony are saying (and largely agree that we need to evolve to steady state economies and that these don't at all represent the road back to the caves!) but, despite the quote Anthony began with, I think this article is a bit subtler and more nuanced than that.
There's no denying that, so far, de-coupling hasn't been a great success. I suspect Amory Lovins is a bit optimistic, but equally the pessimism of The Conundrum (the kind of 'Jevons paradox alway happens…
Read moreAnthony Nolan
Ruminant
Felix - fair enough, what you say. It's just that I reckon that the urgency of the situation is so far greater than this article allows. The idea that good design builds in ecological values is excellent and you are correct to emphasise the way that this allows consumers of goods and services to not have to struggle with the eco-economics. However, realistically, do you think we have that much time available for such things to flow through?
Felix MacNeill
Environmental Manager
Anthony - not really, but then again, I doubt we'll be able to stop the juggernaut in time so anything that reduces damage is probably still worth pursuing. Then again, I have to concede, there is always the danger of 'premature closure' - i.e. thinking that because you've bought 'green' products (which is worth doing) that you've actually fixed the problem (which you obviously haven't) - it's the reason I'm no fan of Earth Hour as I think it reduces the valency of the motivation to act, through an illusion of action, without really achieving anything. So I have to agree it's far from being clear.
Maybe the right view is to presume that we will simply have to move to a far lower impact, essentially 'steady state' economy one way or another, but that any genuine design improvements that we can achieve now are likely to stand us in good stead in both the transition and the final new economy.
John Hartshorn
logged in via Facebook
Every reasonable person would prefer to purchase durable and functional products built with designs that emphasize long life, easy repair, modifiability for evolving technologies in the future, minimal life-cycle use of energy and materials and full recyclability. The main reason we don't see this in most products is the perverse motivational structure of capitalist economies, not a lack of thoughtful design. Merchants and manufacturers worship at the altars of planned obsolescence, manufactured…
Read moreDoug Hutcheson
Poet
John, you are dead right when you say "Our whole culture revolves around wasteful unnecessary consumption", but I question your assertion "and changing it will be the work of a generation." The profit motive lies deep in our genes and I doubt a single generation will do much to budge it.
Judging by historical precedent, the only way such a fundamental change is going to occur is through collapse of the old system, not through planned and thoughtful tweaks. That collapse might come from losing a war to a power with a different paradigm, but our current situation suggests the collapse will only come when our global, profit-seeking civilisation becomes unsustainable on our warmer world.
Felix MacNeill
Environmental Manager
John, as noted above, I think it's about 95% certain that you're dead right (there's always a small possibility that capitalism could pull a few rabbits out of the hat, starting with cold fusion, but even then there would have to be an awful lot of rabbits in the hat, I must admit!).
I guess I was just trying to indicate that, however we go, there is a genuine role for design, as suggested in the article and one we should be looking much harder at making use of - however constrained our future will be (and I'm unable to imagine how it won't be and, by the way, not necessarily particularly troubled by some material constraints) one o fthe best ways to get the greatest bang from whatever bucks we have will be cleve rdesign, based on sound sustainability analysis.
Grant Burfield
Dr
"Let us be clear about one thing - the prospect of a four degree rise is a conservative prediction".
Well the non-intensive global temperature anomaly will have to get a shake on won't it? Is the UK Met office aware of this? They seem to agree that there has been no increase in the non-intensive global temperature anomaly over the last 15 years and what's worse they predict that there won't be any over the next 5 years.
An acceleration is needed to fulfill our worst predictions.
Doug Hutcheson
Poet
Oh, dear. The old "no warming since [insert cherry-picked date here]" chestnut gets another airing. Those interested in the facts should look at http://www.skepticalscience.com/16_more_years_of_global_warming.html
Tim Scanlon
Debunker
You really should stop reading denial sites. The UK Met Office never said anything of the sort, in fact it had to come out and correct the record on what they had and hadn't said.
http://metofficenews.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/met-office-in-the-media-14-october-2012/
Mark McGuire
climate rebel
Quote from your link:
"Dave Britton (10:48:21) :
We agree with Mr Rose that there has been only a very small amount of warming in the 21st Century.
As stated in our response, this is 0.05 degrees Celsius since 1997 equivalent to 0.03 degrees Celsius per decade."
.
That 0.03 per decade is NOT outside natural variation.
Howsabout Germany?
European Climate Institute: “Climate In Germany Has Been Cooling For 15 Years”!
http://notrickszone.com/2013/01/16/european-climate-institute-climate-in-germanys-has-been-cooling-for-15-years/
Howsabout the UEA-CRU, home of climategate?
Phil Jones, director of the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) at the University of East Anglia (UEA)-
“Q. Do you agree that from 1995 to the present there has been no statistically-significant global warming
A. Yes, but only just.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8511670.stm
Deny that.
Felix MacNeill
Environmental Manager
Mark, no one is denying any of this, they're just denying that it actually has any real meaning.
Mark McGuire
climate rebel
Felix, you should tell Ben Santer it hasn't any real meaning:
"Our results show that temperature records of at least 17 years in length are required for identifying human effects on global-mean tropospheric temperature."
http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com/2011/09/07/comments-on-the-new-paper-separating-signal-and-noise-in-atmospheric-temperature-changes-the-importance-of-timescale-by-santer-et-al-2011/
Alex Cannara
logged in via LinkedIn
Don't worry Doug, this is just how Grant shows: a) no understanding of statistics and b) no understanding of science.
We should love it when such revelations are made by deniers & fact avoiders in public.
;]
Gerard Dean
Managing Director
I made a new year's resolution not to comment on The Converstion in 2013.
The author puts that consumption would fall if designers designed better and more durable products.
From the perspective that a durable product lasts longer, I agree to some extent. An excellent example being a well built public building.
Sadly, it does not follow that a well designed house will reduce consumption. Australians are fanatics when it comes to new homes, new kitchens and renovations. In my childhood…
Read moreDianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
Built-in obsolescence needs to be banned. We can build long life items. For ever evolving computer technology, replaceable parts in an existing frame-work would help. On an individual basis, I purchase re-furbished equipment where possible and do not desire the latest gizmo.
We do not face an impossible situation, however, what is required is collaboration, cooperation and long-term planning - anathema to capitalism which is why resistance to genuine economics and sustainable practice is so vociferously opposed.
John Phillip
John Phillip is a Friend of The Conversation.
Grumpy Old Man
Dianna, I am wondering (this is not a rhetorical question) whether, in the long term, it is better to keep plugging away with my 1997 Pajero and continue to maintain or buy a new Mazda3 and change it every 5 -7 years. Which alternative is the best from an environmental perspective?
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
I cannot tell you how to life your life, but suggest applying use of common sense in you decision making.
For example, a vehicle that runs on diesel would be a good investment - a vehicle designed to last longer than 5- 7 years would be even better.
Felix MacNeill
Environmental Manager
John, I believe the evidence is that, assuming your old car is still running reasonably well, you're better to squeeze the maximum life you reasonably can out of it and only when it really is dead (and you've turned the embodied emissions in its materials and manufacture into the maximum amount of practical mobility possible) you buy the 'greenest' option available at the time.
But I'm sure that the issue is really more complex than this crude rule of thumb and can vary a lot from case to case (how bad is your old car, how much better would the new car you choose really be, what are the effective 'payback' periods, etc.).
Fred Moore
Builder
Your Corporate Executiveness here,
Look we have women on our team with OUR promises of equal rights to have all the children they desire and use all the man-beguiling poisonous cosmetics and toiletries that we can manufacture with the remnants of the world's forests and the remnants of healthy oceans.
By the time they realise they are destroying the planet amidst web of feminism lies we executives will be the richer and getting laid more than anyone on the planet.
Greed is GOOD and our PONZI…
Read moreDianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
Climate Change.
It woz women who dunnit!
Burn the witches - oops maybe not, releasing all that CO2.
Hang the witches!
Fred Moore
Builder
Dianna,
I gather you are saying you would rather burn (in hell?) than have a sustainable and Equitable planet if having a sustainable planet means a legal obligation to have one child only per lifetime.
Such selfishness and risk-passing self empowerment will make global CORRUPTION, GRIEF and WAR..
Not a cool design at all.
But you ARE winning - the planet is dying and the human race is because of the nature of the second law of thermodynamics, teetering on a rusty nipple.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
Que?
Suggest you do a quick review of my posting history.
Paul Hanley
Student
Most studies show that when the level of female education rises in an area the population rate slows.
http://www.thebulletin.org/web-edition/op-eds/neglected-climate-strategy-empower-women-slow-population-growth
Most western countries have negative growth rates that are supplemented by immigration. It's quite obvious that couples would choose less children in our society as we have no incentive to have large amounts of children as developing countries do.
But is there any point trying to be rational when there are people dishing out male-enslavemeant conspiracy theories?
John Harland
bicycle technician
To ban "built-in obsolescence" we would need to define it. Banning is not an effective means of addressing a problem unless you can make very clear what you mean.
John Phillip, your question is imponderable without any data on usage patterns. Is the embodied energy of the new car less than the extra fuel you would burn by travelling the same distances in your old car?
In buying a new "economical" car, you may be enticed to travelling much more than you do in your old vehicle, and so negate any envisaged savings in fuel use (the Jeavons effect).
If you are seeking to reduce the environmental impact of your driving, driving less is more effective than replacing a car.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
To limit the production of products designed to fail would, of course, require definitions and standards and, even regulations. All of which is the antithesis of increased profit.
But not impossible.
John Harland
bicycle technician
Apologies for my shorthand.
It is esy to come up with a definition that will suffice in a cafe conversation. The challenge is to define the problem in a way that allows a good chance of prosecuting people who can afford the best of defence lawyers.
If something, such as a computer, is being produced for a market that is changing rapidly through rapid development of the science and technology behind its production and use, does it make sense to design it to last 20 years (and so require more resource input)?
It doesn't actually help to point out that much advancement in consumer-market computers is driven by online games and pornography. Attempts to ban those have been fruitless or even counter-productive and they will continue to drive change.
It is not that we are powerless against design for obsolescence, but simple bans are not likely to be of any use at all.
John Harland
bicycle technician
It takes extra effort, energy and resources to make things last longer.
That is only justified if there is a reasonable chance that people will actually use the item for longer.
Felix MacNeill
Environmental Manager
Good points John, although I believe the Jevons effect with buying a new car isn't that great generally - most people are already doing all the miles they need and simply coppping the expense in fuel, etc. These days, I think recreational driving is not that common.
Fred Moore
Builder
There once was a frog at the river's edge.
Along came a beautiful lady being nudged toward the frog by a man in Uncle Sam drag.
The woman said to the frog "Can you take me across the river?"
The frog was wary but the woman continued "When we get to the other side there are reeds and other things and I can show you how to make them into more energy efficient and costeffective swimming aids that will solve climate change"
The Frog was a PhD in Physics and knew that the second Law of Thermodynamics prohibited such nonsense, but he was beguiled by her perfume and agreed.
The woman got on his back and off they went. Half way across the woman began to squeeze his neck and he started to drown.
"Why are you killing me, and when I am helping you, he cried"
"Because I am liberated and because I CAN" came the reply.
Seeing this, the man in Uncle Sam drag turned to his wife and said, "We got another one Martha!"
Chris Sanderson
CEO
Look, lots of the comments make sense, but most are just sniffing round the edges.
85% of the problem is under our own control and relates to burning fossil fuels.
If you really want to get serious about helping to save our future, just work out a plan to stop burning them.
It just takes time and a serious intent to save some money.
Once you have the funds, then install some solar panels. 8-10 kW is a good number.
This will give you enough to generate the electricity you use, plus also fuel an EV in the future.
By the time you've saved enough and are ready to trade in your car on the next one, EV's should be available at a reasonable price.
If you want an EV now I suggest buying a used Prius from a govt auction and optionally convert it to plug-in.
And that strategy should reduce your family's carbon footprint to less than the UNFCC global target of 2-3 tonnes of CO2 per capita, p.a........./Chris
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
Some good suggestions, Chris. But not all have access to a power-point for their Prius and there remains the issue of where we source our electricity - at present primarily coal.
Interim measures include a variety of actions we can take. However, this remains difficult to implement:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sustainable-business/nudging-people-sustainability-local-choices
Chris Sanderson
CEO
Does that mean that those who do have access to a powerpoint shouldn't do it either?
Does that mean that those who can install solar panels shouldn't do so because some can't?.......'/Chris
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
What do you think, Chris?
There are a variety of ways to transition to clean sustainable practises, all we can do is what works best for each of us according to ability and need.
There is no magic bullet, unfortunately.
Jennifer Kent
logged in via LinkedIn
I too was deeply disappointed in this article. For a start it not only had nothing new to say but was based on a number of flawed assumptions - most of which have been commented on others. My question is - what has happened to the idea of dematerialisation in design? This was quite fashionable in the 1990s with books such as Factor 4 or the more ambitious Factor 10. However no mention here (except for a bit of name dropping) of how design can help transform existing unsustainable production and consumption practices through reducing or removing the need for products in the first place.
John Harland
bicycle technician
A problem for me with Factor 4 was the concentration on individual action, more than collective.
If we could reduce our own consumption by 80% we would still have less direct impact than by influencing 200 people to cut their consumption by 0.5%.
If that helps 200 people feel a little empowered to make a diffrence, we start to build the political pressure that politicians need to feel assured of before they make decisions they may already know to be right. (Most of us are expecting politicians to lead us out of crisis but politicians follow public opinion, they almost never lead it)
There was also an obsession, in Factor 4, with super cars and nothing about making bicycling or walking more practical at a community or wider level, for instance.
Although the essential notion of dematrialisation of design is valid, the idea was presented in a context that was so tightly bound by US middleclass values that the ideas were essentially locked out of many people's thinking.
Alex Cannara
logged in via LinkedIn
Nice to see an article in 2013 written about designing for longevity of usefulness. Is that then next Apple model?
;]
Actually, there's an app to tell Apple iGadget users how long before they should get in line for overnight waits for the new version of what they have.
Having 5 cars, 3 English, 2 Japanese, and the newest having been built in 1995, I can vouch for some benefits of designing for the long term -- even for old Jaguars, whose XK engines were in design while the Germans were still…
Read morePeter Hindrup
consultant
As the conversation has turned to cars: – Volkswagen's $600 car gets 258 mpg.
http://www.examiner.com/article/volkswagen-s-600-car-gets-258-mpg
I want one!
On sustainable, if a new car had to be kept for at least five years, and only more fuel efficient cars, built to last longer could be imported things could change quite quickly.
An example is the Citroen 2 CV, went into production just after WII, production ceased not so many years ago. (I cannot remember just when). The Ami 8, the…
Read moreFelix MacNeill
Environmental Manager
Thanks Peter - I think these are really useful points on the keep or trade in question with cars.
Alex Cannara
logged in via LinkedIn
Peter, I forgot one of our cars -- my 1st, which is on the road again with new seat cushions, etc. -- 1961 Austin Healey Sprite.
It's saved enough fuel in its 51 years of use to run one of our old Jags for a decade. Of course each of those Jags represents storage of about 5000lbs of iron & aluminum fabrication energy.
;]
It, like the VW, illustrates the regimen that car companies used to apply before computer-aided design tools -- use standard parts for different models.
The Sprite's BMC A series engine was the sued later for the Mini, had been used earlier for the Morris Minor, taxis, etc. The rear axle & brakes were used across manufacturers & models as well. The Brits & Euro folks had to make small, efficient, easily-maintained cars to offset the high fuel taxation. Nowadays each manufacturer and each model differs in even the most basic parts -- try to replace a headlamp for $2 today.
;]
Oh, and our Sprite is now worth 5x what it cost (if we paint it)!
Peter Hindrup
consultant
Alex; I had to laugh, the Sprite is worth 5x what you paid for it, if you paint it!
That it saved you heaps on gas, I have no doubt at all!
You are quite correct, parts were used across a range, in type and over time, and upon the economy of British/European vehicles.
Australia, like NZ, was poorly served by the US path of ‘yank tanks’!
A point about the Citroen Goddess/D. The Goddess, ID something, hit the market in 1955. In 1966 front guards changed to have ‘eyes’ for the headlights, with swivelling driving lights, and the ‘headlights’ were self levelling, over bumps, etc. the 1966 also switched to a short stroke motor, and the suspension fluid switched from vegetable to mineral.
From then until production ceased, any changes — always for an improvement — were able to be fitted to the older model vehicles and production of the older version of the part ceased.
Alex Cannara
logged in via LinkedIn
Peter, thanks for triggering the Citroen memory -- had a friend with one who loved it. Note that The Mentalist, if you get that show down there, has one.
By the way, we really enjoy Rake up here, when we can find it. Aussies can't all be so self-destructive as he, right?
;]
The Sprite has a great advantage in that Brit parts are now made all over the world and can be gotten easily in places like
http://www.victoriabritish.com/
John Harland
bicycle technician
John Flynn drove a US Dodge car around the Inland in his researches that led to the School of the Air and the Flying Doctor (and a lot else, but let's leave it at that)
US cars had a record of far-higher reliability and longevity in Outback conditions than cars from other places. That reduced the embodied resource costs per kilometre by a huge factor. It also reduced the number of rescue journeys required to unbog or repair them. (Not to mention thqt they tended to bog far less often)
When…
Read moreIan L. McQueen
Retired
Alex Cannara wrote:
Climate change, sea rise, ice loss, etc. are peanuts compared to ocean acidification, which in just several decades has been moved half way toward shut down of oceanic food chains. At the current pH rate of decrease, 2050 will see the beginnings of truly catastrophic losses worldwide. ~20% of all human food protein comes from the seas. ~80% of all people are coastal, dependent significantly on sea food.
*****
Alex, I wonder where you get your information. The oceans ae…
Read moreGlenn Tamblyn
logged in via Facebook
Ian
"... The oceans ae ALKALINE ... "
Yep, good spot. However as Alex pointed out, the pH is dropping. Still alkaline but less so. Moving in the direction towards acid, even though it won't get there. So what term would you use to describe a process that is moving pH lower, towards a less alkaline state even if not actually reaching acidic? Perhaps dealkalinisation (or de-alkalinisation) perhaps?
A bit of a search in dictionaries throws up that acidification and alkalinisation are both…
Read moreGlenn Tamblyn
logged in via Facebook
Ian
" Adding CO2 to the oceans doesn't automatically push the water toward acidity- there is a chain of reactions that prevent acidification. And then there is BUFFERING by the many chemicals that are dissolved in sea water."
Yep again, although the pH will move in the acid DIRECTION. And all thosereactions, and buffering. That is the nub ofthe problem. The chemical changes that occur as a result of the buffering reduce the magnitude of a value called Omega, in this context defined as…
Read moreGlenn Tamblyn
logged in via Facebook
Ian
"...If a saturated liquid warms, some of the gas is forced out..."
Yes, but only in a certain situation, one that doesn't apply to the oceans at present. This is only true if the partial pressure of the gas above the liquid is constant. However, if the partal pressure of the gas is rising, the liquid will absorb some of the gas to maintain an equilibrium between partial pressure above and concentration below.
If partial pressure is rising AND temperature is rising, these two factors…
Read moreGlenn Tamblyn
logged in via Facebook
Ian
" the oceans would warm.....they aren't, actually....."
TOTALLY INCORRECT.
The oceans are warming just as much as ever. If you want to claim otherwise, you need to put up some evidence for that. And just a littlehint Ian. Citing just the data for 0-700 meters isn't 'the oceans'.
If you aren't using the data for 0-2000 meters, you aren't looking at the oceans.
Alex Cannara
logged in via LinkedIn
O don't see Ian's original comment anymore, but he and other deniers have quibbled over terms like acidification before, despite their quibbling neing irrelevant,
pH is indeed the key. So if we say coffe "sweeteners" sweeten coffe, and if we only puit 1 pack in so the coffee isn't yet "sweet", is the seqeetener not a seetener?
The point is that the pH of seawater controls extraction by living organisms of the Caron they can use for theiur structures. Whne the pH flaas below about 8.0, there…
Read moreAlex Cannara
logged in via LinkedIn
Here, let's give Ian yet another try at reading some facts, eh?
http://online.wr.usgs.gov/calendar/2012/mar12.html
http://climate.nasa.gov/keyIndicators/#seaIce
And maybe someone can give Ian a little help in physical chemistry, so he can grasp how sea rise is partly due to warming water?
Doug Hutcheson
Poet
Quite right, Alex. Saying the ocean is acidifying is the same as saying water in the kettle that started at 1°C and is now at 3°C is warming, even though it is not yet what we would call warm. Saying it should be referred to as 'less cold' is just obfuscation. Saying acidification should be referred to as "less alkaline" is similarly playing semantics. In fact, I have also seen people smarter then me use the term 'basic', rather than 'alkaline', so the semantic games can be played ad nauseum.
Bottom line: absorption of CO₂ is increasing the ocean's "acidity" (H+ ion concentration)
Glenn Tamblyn
logged in via Facebook
Don't fret Alex.Ian may have gone away but not to worry. An other day, another post.Ian will be back like the Everready Man, and just as repetitive.
Alex Cannara
logged in via LinkedIn
;]
By the way, all interested in next-gen nukes might be interested in how a 7th grader explains what the Chinese, Czechs... are now moving ahead with while we fiddle...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2M81SYQXjI&feature=plcp
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmCP9ABLGwM&feature=plcp
www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0hgO-iUVGU&feature=plcp
www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNkS0eG_SFY&feature=youtube
Peter Hindrup
consultant
Glenn:
What happens to your figures if you make a one child one couple and that option does not arise until one has passed their thirty fifth birthday?
Not being an ethicist, I wonder at the ethics of simply saying this problem is too hard for us, let the next lot deal with it? This is what my generation by and large did with it anyway.
Glenn Tamblyn
logged in via Facebook
Peter
One child per couple but only in their 30's would be akin to less than one child per couple earlier in life. What drives this is the overall rate at which children are being born relative tothe rate at which the existing population is aging and dying. Simply, the current population is the sum of all past reproductive activity. And it takes time fort his to work it's way through the system.
A 'one child but later in life' policy would be somewhat more effective than just a 'one child…
Read moreDoug Hutcheson
Poet
Glenn, you are right on the mark when you say "there is no ethical way we can get population down fast enough for that to make much of a contribution to solving humanities converging crises any time in the next 50 years". It is the convergence of multiple crises which is likely to overwhelm our society and wreck what we in the developed West call 'civilisation'.
The question, then, is: does our civilisation deserve to survive?
Glenn Tamblyn
logged in via Facebook
YES!
Several reasons.
- It's the only one we have.
- If it falls, another may not be able to rise again. With the collapse of a civilisation comes absolutely massive loss of knowledge.But with most of the easily getable resources already used by us, a future human society may not have the knowledge needed to get access to the resources to recover.They may be trapped in a low resource/low knowledge trap.
- For all our failings, we can and do learn. It just needs a regular application of a bit of 2 by 4 to the head. Just enough to knock the sense in.Not so much it kills us.
The positive that I take from this is that if we do pull through, the learning curve we will have climbed to do so will be so high that we will be a wholely different people.
Peter Hindrup
consultant
Glenn: Thank you for making the effort to reply. While it seems obvious to me that late in life breeding must slow the population growth, I do not have skills/knowledge to present that in figures,
I agree that in the near future humans are going to face hardships that those of my generation, in the west, can barely comprehend (I'm 74).
The less developed populations are likely to be much more fitted for survival than are we.
Mark McGuire
climate rebel
Would that be the same World Bank that is spending billions of pounds subsidising new coal-fired power stations in developing countries despite claiming that burning fossil fuels exposes the poor to catastrophic climate change.
Why, yes, it would be.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/environment/article2144637.ece
Felix MacNeill
Environmental Manager
So, if I said that murder was bad but then murdered somebody, would that mean that murder was now okay?
That's pretty much the way your 'reasoning' works.
Just because the World Bank is acting hypocritically, doesn't make the science wrong - it just makes the World Bank inconsistent, which is hardly a surprise.
What was, perhaps, interesting was that even they were forced to acknowledge the science.
Mark McGuire
climate rebel
Felix, it is not "my reasoning."
I didn't write this opine highlighting the World Bank report "Turn down the heat."
You don't need to be a rocket scientist to use a computer & the internet, and a little research goes a long way, as the good Professor would tell his students.
Or you could just do what the prof. has done above, and post a bunch of un-researched, hypocritical, inconsistent twaddle as if it was some sort of gospel from Gaia.
PS. Your murder analogy is 'sad.'
Then again…
Read moreFelix MacNeill
Environmental Manager
Mark, if you stuck a 35mm slide in your ear and opened your mouth in the direction of a blank wall, we could all actually enjoy the show.
I have indeed read the World Bank report, whch was completed by the independent and competent Potsdam Institute. Regardless of the debatable integrity of the organisation that commissioned it (the World Bank) it remains a credible and useful document. That is why your attempy to discredit the report by discrediting the commissioning body is irrational.
Then again, you do seem to enjoy the irrational, don't you? I wonder what a psychologist would make of:
"Then again, murdering poor people for population control, as discussed above in the opine, would be part of your KPI's as an "environmental manager."
when I've never commented in any way about poulation control.
But this really takes the cake for hysteria:
"You will be glad to know your environmental pogrom has already begun"
John Clark
Manager
This article is consistent with others that go to great lengths to avoid the obvious. It is a little unusual in that it includes the discredited term "sustainable development", which is a contradiction in terms. In simple terms, human impacts are the product of population growth and consumption. Neither are sustainable, and are together catastrophic. Essentially the approach is; - we have this problem of too many people using to many resources, both of which are sacrosanct. Hmmmmm, what can we do that excludes both of these, but makes it appear that we are taking action?
Stephen John Ralph
carer
I remember eons ago reading a book by Vance Packard called "The Wastemakers"......interesting then and probably relevant now.
It's humanity I tells ya - humanity - we all want THEY are having.....until the next thing comes along.
We (collectively) are both tragically exploitable and continually eager for more.
Eric Shawn Bosloor
Public Relations SuperCheap Storage at Super Cheap Storage
Nicely written! The picture does say it all isn’t it? Products now are having shorter and shorter product lives, which makes them cheap, great for the consumers, but really bad for the planet. People discard so much now I think the world would eventually run out of place for the storage of all that junk! Some undeveloped squatters of India and Indonesia have consumer items like mobile phones floating right in their rivers! These rivers become a storage of all sorts of chemicals that the products give out as they decay, thus polluting the water. This pollution will eventually get into the ocean and into our very home in Australia. A sad consequence, of which, I have no immediate solution for.