tag:theconversation.com,2011:/au/topics/trust-me-im-an-expert-43810/articlesTrust Me, I'm an Expert – The Conversation2020-04-17T00:30:22Ztag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1320992020-04-17T00:30:22Z2020-04-17T00:30:22ZChildhood, adolescence, pregnancy, menopause, 75+: how your diet should change with each stage of life<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/316114/original/file-20200219-10976-7514dg.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=11%2C11%2C7337%2C4891&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">
</span> <span class="attribution"><span class="source">Shutterstock</span></span></figcaption></figure><p>In today’s episode, Clare Collins, a Professor in Nutrition and Dietetics at the University of Newcastle, explains how our diets might need to change depending on what stage of life we’re in. </p>
<p>The Conversation’s Phoebe Roth started by asking: what should kids be eating and how much should parents worry about children eating vegetables? </p>
<p>An edited transcript is below.</p>
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<p><strong>Additional audio credits</strong></p>
<p><em>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks.</a></em></p>
<p><em>Podcast episode recorded by Phoebe Roth and edited by Sophia Morris.</em></p>
<h2>Lead image</h2>
<p><em>Shutterstock</em></p>
<h2>Edited transcript</h2>
<p><strong>Clare Collins</strong>: Parents worry so much about what children eat. But the rule of thumb is if they’re growing well, then you don’t need to worry. They are eating enough food. </p>
<p>And the way you know if they’re growing well is: if you take their baby book or you have a growth chart on your wall and you plot their height and weight regularly, you’ll be able to see if they’re following one of the lines on the growth chart. And that’s the best indicator. </p>
<p>The other thing that’s worth remembering is that a well child won’t starve themselves. But for children, their appetite is more variable than an adult. With us, we go, “Well, 12 o'clock, better eat lunch,” or “Oh, I’m awake, better have breakfast now because I’m going to be busy at work later.” But for children, they’re much more responsive to their internal cues. </p>
<p>And the younger the child, the more variable their appetite. So a typical thing is, a two or three year old might eat a massive breakfast and tomorrow they don’t eat any. At daycare, they might eat a huge lunch or none at all. And then the same thing happens at dinner. So if your child’s in daycare, you might want to look in the book or ask the staff, did they eat afternoon tea and lunch today? And that’ll give you a little bit of a guide as to whether you should be encouraging them to eat a little bit more dinner or just go, well, they had just had a massive afternoon tea, so they’re not really going to be hungry. </p>
<p>The other thing with children around the evening meal is that they often run out of steam by the end of the day. So having the evening meal as early as is practical. And for a young child, that may mean they’re having their dinner at five o'clock. And then what they eat at the family meal time is an optional extra. Because if you make them wait till 6 or 7pm, they’re over it and dinner becomes a nightmare. </p>
<p>The other thing that we know about kids, in terms of should we worry about them not eating vegetables, is we’ve actually done some research on this. And we found for kids around the age of three, the biggest predictor of their vegetable intake was not what mum had eaten in pregnancy. It was actually what the parents were eating now. So if you really want your children to eat heaps of veggies, it’s monkey-see-monkey-do, then that means we’ve got to look at how much we love our broccoli, mum and dad. And then that will make a big difference. </p>
<p>The other factor that comes into vegetable intake is genetics. And about 25% of people are what are called “super tasters”. That means they have got extra taste buds. And I wrote an article about this on The Conversation, actually. And so they taste things like the brassicas family – so Brussels sprouts, cauliflower – they taste it as more bitter than people who were either, not super tasters or, you know, have less taste buds. But more good news: even if you’re a super taster, if you don’t give up and you have repeated exposure, you even overcome that. So there’s no excuse for not liking your cauliflower. </p>
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Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/how-much-food-should-my-child-be-eating-and-how-can-i-get-them-to-eat-more-healthily-130470">How much food should my child be eating? And how can I get them to eat more healthily?</a>
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<p><strong>Phoebe Roth</strong>: That’s really interesting. I had no idea about a lot of that. So you started to touch on my next question, but I wonder if there are any other tips you’ve got. I was going to ask, what does the evidence say works for developing healthy eating habits during childhood or for kids if you’re worried perhaps they’re not eating as well as they should be. </p>
<p><strong>Clare Collins</strong>: The key thing for developing healthy eating habits in childhood is not giving up and trying not to stress. So really accepting there is variability. Studies have been done on toddler intake and shown that over 24 hours they pretty much eat about the same total energy intake. But if you look meal to meal, hugely variable, like I mentioned. </p>
<p>The other key time when I think parents, you know, the food wars can start around 18 months and then people go, you know, “the terrible twos, they just never eat anything!” Well, if you want to avoid the food wars, then around 18 months, just step back a little bit and observe how much food is your child usually eating, because up until 18 months, babies have tripled their birth weight. So, you know, born around, say you’re around three kilos, well around six months you’ll be six kilos and around 18 months you’ll be nine kilos. Now, if in the next 18 months you tripled your birth weight again, what would that be? Nine, 18, 36 kilos. Around that. So around 18 months, depending on a child’s activity, they can actually go through a period of time where their energy needs are relatively less and you are going “No, last month they’d eat a whole punnet of blueberries!” and then you may start trying to force feed them. That’s where the beginnings of the food wars can start. So, trusting, like I said, that a well child will not starve themselves. </p>
<p>It can be different if the child has medical requirements and need for a therapeutic diet. That’s a whole separate kettle of fish and you’d be needing to talk to your GP, maybe be referred to a dietitian for specific problems or if there’s actual feeding problems, a speech pathologist. </p>
<p>So for the average child, it is about exposure, letting them feed themselves, not force feeding them and rewarding the behaviour that you want to see. So picture this: dinner time at the table. One child chasing those veggies around the plate with a fork and the other child eating up the foods that they’re really hungry for. If you focus on the child doing the “right thing” – you know, “I love the way, Jodi, you’re eating that broccoli and carrots,” rather than, “hey, Sammy, you’re going to sit there til every pea has disappeared off your plate” – well, then you’re reinforcing that vegetables are disgusting. So if you focus on the behaviours you want to see, then the other children start to recognise that, “oh, I only get attention if I’m doing the ‘right thing’. ” So reward the behaviour you want to see. </p>
<p>Most of the dinner is consumed in 20 minutes. So don’t make the meals drawn out. And for kids with a smaller appetite, having healthy snacks will make up for what’s not eaten within 20 minutes. </p>
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Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/five-things-parents-can-do-to-improve-their-childrens-eating-patterns-95370">Five things parents can do to improve their children's eating patterns</a>
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<p><strong>Phoebe Roth</strong>: Okay, great. And today we’re discussing, obviously, the Australian Dietary Guidelines and sort of adapting diet at each stage of life. And so I wanted to know at which of life’s different stages might our dietary needs change? We’ve now talked about kids, but what about, say, for pregnant women, women going through menopause and any others?</p>
<p><strong>Clare Collins</strong>: Okay. For boys and girls, their dietary needs stay about the same until adolescence. And then that’s the first time the next alarm bells ring. Once girls start menstruating then their iron requirements are much, much greater. Boys, if they’re super active and they have a big increase in lean body mass – so it’s kind of like, you know, if you go from a little car to a big car, you need a lot more fuel – so for boys, all of a sudden they’re eating a lot more food. And meeting those nutritional requirements of adolescence is important because adolescence is also the time when teenagers typically experiment with different types of diets, you know, so they might be on a vegetarian diet or a vegan diet. So just keeping an eye on that. The key nutrients are iron – and you can get that from vegetarian foods and great articles on The Conversation about that, by the way. </p>
<p>And there’s also articles on The Conversation about adolescents and another typical issue that arises at adolescence, where parents are going “I wonder if this is a dietary problem” is diet and acne. And I’ve actually <a href="https://theconversation.com/mondays-medical-myth-chocolate-causes-acne-6934">written</a> on that for The Conversation. </p>
<p>And your nutrient needs for women change again during pregnancy and breastfeeding. The growing baby is a pretty good sponge. So it’s really the mum’s nutritional status that’s most at risk and the baby will be doing its best to grow with whatever fuel’s available. But to optimise the baby’s growth and development, you do want to have a nutritious dietary pattern. But you don’t need as much extra food and nutrients as you think. Basically, it’s equivalent to an extra tub of yoghurt and a salad sandwich to meet your extra requirements. But some diet-related problems do kick off in pregnancy like heartburn or developing constipation. And, you know, pregnant women and this happened to me as well, during pregnancy, go, hey, how come this is happening? Well, during pregnancy, there are hormonal changes to essentially slow down your transit time in your gut to give your body the best chance of getting any nutrients out of the food so to support the pregnancy. </p>
<p>And so eating healthily in pregnancy is really important, but you may need a boost in your dietary fibre intake. And one of the articles I’ve written for The Conversation is on how to manage constipation. And there’s a whole hierarchy of nutrition things you can do. And beyond that, then you really do need to mention it to your obstetrician or your GP in case you need some other type of like medicinal help. And then it’s got to make sure it’s something that’s safe for pregnancy. And you do need to talk to them about that. </p>
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Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/health-check-what-to-eat-and-avoid-during-pregnancy-30356">Health Check: what to eat and avoid during pregnancy</a>
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<p><strong>Phoebe Roth</strong>: Sure. Are there any other life stages where you might need to think about changing your diet? What if, say, you develop a particular health condition? </p>
<p><strong>Clare Collins</strong>: If you develop a particular health condition, then absolutely. The most common diet-related health conditions in Australia is type 2 diabetes. And some people are now being diagnosed with pre-diabetes, which is like an alarm bell and gives you a chance to change your dietary patterns and your lifestyle behaviours like physical activity so that you don’t go on to develop type 2 diabetes. And then the other one is heart disease. Both of those have dietary components. </p>
<p>So for type 2 diabetes, you’re likely to moderate the type and amount of carbohydrate. And for heart disease, there’s a whole range of bioactive foods that you can boost your intake of – whole grains, vegetables and fruit, reducing your saturated fat intake. And, you know, you can find articles about all of those things on The Conversation. </p>
<p>But if you read those and you go, oh, wow, it’s way more complex than I thought or I really would like some personalised advice, then ask your GP to refer you to an Accredited Practising Dietitian and get a personalised plan.</p>
<p><strong>Phoebe Roth</strong>: Yeah, absolutely. And the other one is menopause. I know you’re writing an article for us coming up on menopause and whether there are specific things you need to keep in mind regarding your diet. </p>
<p><strong>Clare Collins</strong>: Menopause is really unfair because one of my colleagues, Lauren Williams, who’s co-authoring the article and she’s from Griffith University up there on the Gold Coast, is her whole PhD research was on this topic and she studied the Australian Longitudinal Study of Women’s Health and followed the women as they transitioned through menopause. And the average weight gain is about two and a half kilos. </p>
<p>But even that is not the most unfair aspect of menopause. What she discovered is that there’s no discount, if you like, on gaining weight, if you lived a healthy lifestyle already, that all women are prone to weight gain during menopause. And it’s a combination of the hormonal changes amplified by life changes. And some of those life changes are that for most women, the physical work actually reduces at that time. You know, the house might be less people living in your house and you don’t have to do as much housework. </p>
<p>For many women, you have more disposable income. So you actually can go out a little bit more, spend more money on eating out. And the other thing is it’s a life stage where alcohol intake increases in women. You know, the perfect storm. You know, you had this lovely, healthy lifestyle and then you gained weight. </p>
<p>But what she also found, which is the important message, is that during that menopausal transition, women who changed something, they went, “Right. I’m going to beat this weight gain.” And they decided to eat more vegetables or develop new, healthier recipes or walk a lot more. They did not gain that average two point, 2.5-ish kilos. </p>
<p>As much as I really think that sucks that we gain weight during menopause, I’m really pleased to know that it’s not inevitable, but it’s kind of like, you know, it’s like having to do a spring clean on your life stage patterns, on your dietary patterns and on your physical activity. And you can get through menopause in a healthy weight and with a healthy lifestyle and be healthier. But we have to be on guard. So unfair. </p>
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Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/health-check-six-tips-for-losing-weight-without-fad-diets-52496">Health Check: six tips for losing weight without fad diets</a>
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<p><strong>Phoebe Roth</strong>: So in the healthy eating side of things, would that just be sort of following the Australian Dietary Guidelines? </p>
<p><strong>Clare Collins</strong>: Well, yes, but we need to make a little note of caution about the Dietary Guidelines. And that is not many people eat like the Australian Dietary Guidelines. In fact, the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare modelled what would happen if people did eat five serves of vegetables and two serves of fruit and had their whole grains and used reduced fat dairy and, you know, chose the leanest forms of protein. </p>
<p>They model that if everyone in Australia tomorrow started eating like the recommendations found in the Australian Dietary Guidelines, that heart disease rates would drop by 62% and that diabetes rates would drop by – type 2 diabetes rates, I should say – would drop by around 40%. That’s not going to happen. People aren’t going to do that. And we know that only 3 out of 100 Australians eat five serves of vegetables a day. </p>
<p>So, yes, definitely eat more like the Australian Guide to Healthy Eating and the Australian Dietary Guidelines, but a good place you can start is the <a href="https://healthyeatingquiz.com.au/">Healthy Eating Quiz</a>. This is a short quiz that takes less than 10 minutes to do. It’s free and it’s online. It rates your dietary patterns compared to recommendations in the Australian Dietary Guidelines. And that now links to a really fun website – we think it’s fun anyway because we invented it – called <a href="https://nomoneynotime.com.au/">No Money, No Time</a>. It’s got recipe recommendations to match with your <a href="https://healthyeatingquiz.com.au/">Healthy Eating Quiz</a> report. </p>
<p>We’ve set up some fun filters on there. So if you’ve only got a basic kitchen and you’ve got a microwave and just one pot, you can filter it for recipes matching your kitchen equipment. And we also added this other filter that allows you to say what your healthy lifestyle goals are. And we’ve catered for all ages on that. Some people told us their goal was to have glowing skin. And some people said, I want to do better in my sport. And some people have said I want to manage my weight. So you can further tailor the recipes for that. So <a href="https://nomoneynotime.com.au/">No Money, No Time</a> and the <a href="https://healthyeatingquiz.com.au/">Healthy Eating Quiz</a>. And that’s our way of trying to help Australians eat a little bit more healthy and feel better and have their health improve as well. </p>
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Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/got-pre-diabetes-heres-five-things-to-eat-or-avoid-to-prevent-type-2-diabetes-80838">Got pre-diabetes? Here's five things to eat or avoid to prevent type 2 diabetes</a>
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<p><strong>Phoebe Roth</strong>: I am already keen to jump on that straight after this and give it a try. Great. So the Dietary Guidelines, would you say they’re a really good resource and reference point, but possibly not a one size fits all approach? </p>
<p><strong>Clare Collins</strong>: Absolutely. And there are some resources on the government websites called Eat for Health, and there are some resources on that. And they are designed for the predominantly healthy Australian population while recognising that overweight and obesity are relatively common and that people are commonly seeking extra advice for things like type 2 diabetes and heart disease. There’s certainly a good first place to stop. But as I mentioned, you may need extra specialised help if you have some of those common chronic diseases. And a good place to start to find out is with a health check up with your general practitioner who can do a heart health check and check your blood pressure. And you know, if you don’t have scales at home, they can do a check on your weight. But more important than that is checking on your blood to see what your cholesterol level is and whether your blood sugar levels are high, indicating you’re at a higher risk for type 2 diabetes. </p>
<p><strong>Phoebe Roth</strong>: So what do people need to consider to ensure they’re following the right diet for their individual circumstances or for their stage of life? </p>
<p><strong>Clare Collins</strong>: I think the key thing, when it comes to diet-related health or nutrition-related health is knowing what your risk factors are for these chronic conditions. And really to know those, you do need to check in with a health professional, with your general practitioner. You might be a lucky person who has the genes that mean you have wonderful blood sugar levels and you have wonderful cholesterol levels and your blood pressure’s great. Then that would essentially mean that you’re doing the right things for your genes and for your body. But a check-up with your GP is usually a chance to see, you know, what does need to be tweaked in my diet? One of the things about high blood pressure is that it’s really common, but there’s absolutely no signs or symptoms. So until you get it checked by your GP, you wouldn’t even know. </p>
<p><strong>Phoebe Roth</strong>: What about for older people? What sort of things do they need to consider about diet? </p>
<p><strong>Clare Collins</strong>: Once you start approaching 75 and above, then it’s interesting that your nutrition requirements and your dietary requirements start to shift a little bit. Once you get older, the focus moves to trying not to lose your muscle tissue. There’s a word for that malnutrition of older age and it’s called <a href="https://theconversation.com/the-muscle-wasting-condition-sarcopenia-is-now-a-recognised-disease-but-we-can-all-protect-ourselves-119458">sarcopenia</a>. And it’s really important. And so as you age to protect your body from sarcopenia, your protein requirements actually start to go up. </p>
<p>And people have this image of, “Oh, you know older people. They just need a cup of tea and a piece of toast.” Well, they actually don’t. They might need their coffee made on milk or they might need a nutritional supplement if their appetite’s really poor. And this is another time where you may need specialised nutrition advice. If there’s any underlying medical conditions or if the older people in your family are in a nursing home, you may need to talk to the nursing home staff about whether they’re meeting their nutritional requirements or not. </p>
<p>As you age physical activity and because your muscle mass decreases, your total energy intake reduces. And it’s a little bit like going from the big car down to the smaller car. You still need the same amounts of vitamins and minerals and things we call phytonutrients. You know, they’re not a vitamin or they’re not a mineral, but they help your body run better. You still need the same amount of them, but you need them in less energy. So there’s like less room for error. So the tea and toast isn’t adequate, you know, for grandma or granddad, for the older person. They’re having nutritious and nutrient dense foods.</p>
<p>So, you know, vegetable soup, so to put all the vegetables in, in the right texture that looks appealing is really important. The other thing as you get older is that your taste buds change. You can have less. Some of your taste buds start to decline. And so flavouring food more and to the way, you know, Nanna or Grandpa like it rather than the way you like it is really important. So it can be a life stage where for people, if they think, “Gee, food just doesn’t taste as good anymore, then trying out what herbs, spices and flavourings they like and using those to replace salt. </p>
<p>Because as you age you’re more prone to high blood pressure and you’re also more prone to developing diabetes. So nutrition remains important right through your life. And it’s a really important part of our social lives. </p>
<p>So I think, you know, if I had one final message, it’s: no matter what you do or how busy you are, still finding that time to cook, prepare and eat with other people is a really important way of preserving your own family’s food culture and looking after the nutrition-related health and the social well-being of everyone in your family. </p>
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Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/the-muscle-wasting-condition-sarcopenia-is-now-a-recognised-disease-but-we-can-all-protect-ourselves-119458">The muscle-wasting condition 'sarcopenia' is now a recognised disease. But we can all protect ourselves</a>
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<p><strong>Phoebe Roth</strong>: And the last question I have, I wonder if – it goes into all ages, for anyone that’s trying to eat healthy and follow a healthy diet – where do superfoods fit in? I know that there may not be one answer to fit all, but I think that that’s kind of a question people grapple with it when the next fad is right in front of them. And you know, what do they do? Should they eat this? Should they go out and buy it? </p>
<p><strong>Clare Collins</strong>: Fad diets are just so ongoing and regular that we often write articles for The Conversation about them. But you know, my thing about superfoods is that there are super foods, there’s heaps of them and they’re actually all in the supermarket. </p>
<p>And when you walk in the supermarket – this is one way supermarket design does try and help us eat healthy – you walk smack bang into the super food section and they’re right there. They don’t have packages. They don’t have labels. But it’s that wide variety of vegetables and fruit. And I think if there was one important thing to remember, when you go to the supermarket every week when you went to the supermarket or you enter a market, look at those vegetable and fruits and which one has not been in your trolley, you know, in the last couple of weeks? And invite them in. Some of the research that we’ve done shows that the variety of vegetables and fruit, but particularly the variety of vegetables, predicts your long term health care costs.</p>
<p>And we’ve shown that in a research study over 15 years on the Australian Longitudinal study on Women’s Health. And lots of the research we’ve been doing is showing that the variety of those foods that belong to the Australian Guide to Healthy Eating in the Australian Dietary Guidelines, that it’s actually those nutrient-rich foods that predict your nutrient intake and then decide whether you’re on a path for health or you’re not on a path for health. You’re on a path for poor health. </p>
<p>So going for variety in your whole grains, your vegetables, your fruits, your sources of protein, which includes meat, poultry, fish and then all the wonderful vegetarian sources and whole grains. Collectively, those things make up a healthy diet pattern. They make up you when you eat them. And then that determines whether you’re going to be healthy or less healthy. </p>
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Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/had-pre-eclampsia-in-pregnancy-these-5-things-will-lower-your-risk-of-heart-disease-114297">Had pre-eclampsia in pregnancy? These 5 things will lower your risk of heart disease</a>
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<p><strong>Phoebe Roth</strong>: Is there anything else you want to talk about that we didn’t touch on? </p>
<p><strong>Clare Collins</strong>: The only thing is I hope people don’t feel alone when it comes to nutrition. Go and have a look at <a href="https://nomoneynotime.com.au/">No Money, No Time</a>. Not only have we loaded that website up with lots of recipes, we’ve also loaded up with lots of information, hacks and myths. We’ve linked a lot of The Conversation articles to it. And then the other place to go for good information is go to The Conversation and type in nutrition in the search bar. And you’ll see lots of the articles that myself, my team and lots of other academics from other universities around Australia have written on food and nutrition. </p>
<p><strong>Phoebe Roth</strong>: Thank you so much, Clare, for joining us on Trust Me, I’m An Expert today. It’s been great talking to you again. </p>
<p><strong>Clare Collins</strong>: Thank you. It’s my absolute pleasure.</p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/132099/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
Once you get older, the focus moves to trying not to lose your muscle tissue. So as you age, your protein requirements actually start to go up.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorPhoebe Roth, Deputy Health EditorSophia Morris, Editorial InternLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1355392020-04-03T03:30:41Z2020-04-03T03:30:41ZWhat does the coronavirus pandemic sound like? The voices of people struggling, secluding and surviving around the world<p>What does the COVID-19 pandemic sound like?</p>
<p>For this episode, Dallas Rogers – a senior lecturer in the School of Architecture, Design and Planning at the University of Sydney – asked academic colleagues from all over the world to open up the voice recorder on their phones and record a two minute report from the field about their city.</p>
<p>Many of those who responded to the call are struggling, just like us, to make sense of their experience in the COVID-19 city.</p>
<p>The resulting stories reflect on hygiene, disease, quarantine, social control and the urban environment from cities around the world.</p>
<p>If you want to hear all the stories in full, you can find them <a href="https://soundcloud.com/user-283789701/sets/covid-19">here</a>, and read more about the project <a href="https://cityroadpod.org/2020/03/29/listening-to-the-city-in-a-global-pandemic/">here</a>. </p>
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<h2>Contributors</h2>
<p><a href="https://suburbs.info.yorku.ca/roger-keil/">Roger Keil</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/rkeil">@rkeil</a>), Professor at York University</p>
<p><a href="https://www.utas.edu.au/profiles/staff/cose-ted/jason-byrne">Jason Byrne</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/CityByrne">@CityByrne</a>), Professor at the University of Tasmania</p>
<p><a href="https://www.sydney.edu.au/science/about/our-people/academic-staff/kurt-iveson.html">Kurt Iveson</a> (@<a href="https://twitter.com/kurtiveson">kurtiveson</a>), Associate Professor at the University of Sydney</p>
<p><a href="https://www.arts.unsw.edu.au/our-people/tanja-dreher">Tanja Dreher</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/TanjaDreher">@TanjaDreher</a>), Associate Professor at the University of NSW</p>
<p><a href="https://socialsciences.uottawa.ca/feminist-gender-studies/research/visiting-scholars">Carolyn Whitzman</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/CWhitzman">@CWhitzman</a>), Professor and Bank of Montreal Women’s Studies Scholar at the University of Ottawa</p>
<p><a href="https://www.sydney.edu.au/architecture/about/our-people/academic-staff/tooran-alizadeh.html?apcode=ACADPROFILE300808">Tooran Alizadeh</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/DrTooran">@DrTooran</a>), Associate Professor at the University of Sydney</p>
<p><a href="https://www.sfu.ca/fenv/about/meet-the-people/research-profiles/profiles/eugene-mccann.html">Eugene McCann</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/EJMcCann">@EJMcCann</a>), Professor at Simon Fraser University</p>
<p><a href="https://researchportal.hw.ac.uk/en/persons/beth-watts">Beth Watts</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/BethWatts494">@BethWatts494</a>), a Senior Research Fellow at Heriot-Watt University</p>
<p><a href="https://amandakass.blog/">Amanda Kass</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/Amanda_Kass">@Amanda_Kass</a>), PhD candidate at the University of Illinois at Chicago</p>
<p><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/elle-davidson-69075398/?locale=de_DE">Elle Davidson</a>, Aboriginal Planning Lecturer at the University of Sydney</p>
<p><a href="https://staff.lincoln.ac.uk/c2274b8d-bb7a-4a95-afb1-103a54a98847">Creighton Connolly</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/Creighton88">@Creighton88</a>), Senior Lecturer at the University of Lincoln</p>
<p><a href="https://www.canterbury.ac.nz/science/contact-us/people/kelly-dombroski.html">Kelly Dombroski</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/DombroskiKelly">@DombroskiKelly</a>), Senior Lecturer at the University of Canterbury</p>
<p><a href="https://sites.research.unimelb.edu.au/connected-cities/about/our-people/kate-murray">Kate Murray</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/katiemelbourne">@katiemelbourne</a>), Connected Cities Lab at the University of Melbourne</p>
<p><a href="https://www.zoo.ox.ac.uk/people/emma-dale">Em Dale</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/carnivoresetal">@carnivoresetal</a>), at Oxford University</p>
<p><a href="https://msd.unimelb.edu.au/informal-urbanism/people/phd-students/matt-novacevski">Matt Novacevski</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/places_calling">@places_calling</a>), PhD candidate at the University of Melbourne</p>
<p><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/mirjam-b%C3%BCdenbender-phd-b43a2a6b/?originalSubdomain=de">Mirjam Büdenbender</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/MBuedenbender">@MBuedenbender</a>), advisor to the chair of the social-democratic parliamentary group in Berlin</p>
<p><a href="https://experts.griffith.edu.au/9066-natalie-osborne">Natalie Osborne</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/DrNatOsborne">@DrNatOsborne</a>), Lecturer at Griffith University</p>
<p><a href="https://www.otago.ac.nz/geography/staff/otago706248.html">Ash Alam</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/urbanmargin">@urbanmargin</a>), Lecturer at University of Otago</p>
<p><a href="https://www.fresheconomicthinking.com/p/about.html">Cameron Murray</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/DrCameronMurray">@DrCameronMurray</a>), Post-doctoral fellow at the University of Sydney</p>
<p><a href="https://www.sydney.edu.au/architecture/about/our-people/research-students/deeptiprasad-siddabathuni-807.html">Deepti Prasad</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/Deepti_Prasad_">@Deepti_Prasad_</a>), PhD candidate at the University of Sydney</p>
<p><a href="https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/usp/staff/madeleine-pill">Madeleine Pill</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/pillmad">@pillmad</a>), Senior Lecturer at the University of Sheffield</p>
<p><a href="https://ari.nus.edu.sg/people/matthew-wade/">Matt Wade</a><a href="https://ari.nus.edu.sg/people/matthew-wade/">,</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/geminideluxe">@geminidluxe</a>), Post-doctoral Fellow at the National University of Singapore is with Renae Johnson, an independent artist, in Singapore</p>
<p><a href="https://researchers.mq.edu.au/en/persons/susan-caldis">Susan Caldis</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/SusanCaldis">@SusanCaldis</a>), PhD candidate at Macquarie University</p>
<p><a href="https://research-repository.uwa.edu.au/en/persons/paul-maginn">Paul Maginn</a> (<a href="https://twitter.com/Planographer">@Planographer</a>), Associate Professor at the University of Western Australia</p>
<h2>Music Credits</h2>
<p><em>Crop circles by Craft Case, Inspri8ion by Pulsed, The city below by Marten Moses, Someone else’s memories by So Vea. https://www.epidemicsound.com/</em></p>
<p><em>Theme beats by Unkle Ho from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks</a>.</em></p>
<h2>Production credits</h2>
<p><em>Project coordinated by Dallas Rogers.</em></p>
<p><em>Audio edited by Miles P. Herbert, with additional audio editing by Wes Mountain</em>.</p>
<h2>Lead image</h2>
<p><em>AAP/EPA/ANDY RAIN</em></p>
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Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-is-stressful-here-are-some-ways-to-cope-with-the-anxiety-133146">Coronavirus is stressful. Here are some ways to cope with the anxiety</a>
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<img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/135539/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
What does the pandemic sound like? In this episode, urban researchers all over the world open up the voice recorder on their phones and record a two minute report from the field about their city.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorWes Mountain, Social Media + Visual Storytelling EditorLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1336172020-03-13T23:14:25Z2020-03-13T23:14:25ZCoronavirus and COVID-19: your questions answered by virus experts<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/320361/original/file-20200313-177293-u20glz.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=0%2C4%2C3119%2C1833&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption"></span> </figcaption></figure><p>What do you need to know about COVID-19 and coronavirus? We asked our readers for their top questions and sought answers from two of Australia’s leading virus and vaccine experts.</p>
<p>Today’s podcast episode features Professor Michael Wallach and Dr Lisa Sedger – both from the School of Life Sciences at the University of Technology, Sydney – answering questions from you, our readers. An edited transcript is below.</p>
<p>And if you have any questions yourself, please add them to the comments below.</p>
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<h2>Transcript</h2>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> Hi, I’m Sunanda Creagh. I’m the Digital Storytelling editor at The Conversation, and I’m here today with two of Australia’s leading researchers on viruses and vaccines. </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> Hi, my name’s Lisa Sedger. I’m an academic virologist at the University of Technology Sydney. And I do research on novel anti-viral agents and teach virology. </p>
<p><strong>Michael Wallach:</strong> I’m Professor Michael Wallach, the Associate Head of School for the School of Life Science (at the University of Technology Sydney) and my expertise in the area of development of vaccines. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And today, we’re asking these researchers to answer questions about coronavirus and COVID-19 from you guys, our readers and our audience. We’re going to kick it off with Dr. Sedger. Adam would like to know: how long can this virus survive in various temperatures on a surface, say, a door handle or a counter at a public place? </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> Oh, well, that’s an interesting question, because we hear a variety of answers. Some people say that these types of envelope viruses can exist for two to three days, but it really depends on the amount of moisture and humidity and what happens on that surface afterwards, whether it’s wiped off or something. So potentially for longer than that, potentially up to a week. But with cleaning and disinfectants, etc, not very long. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And what’s an envelope virus? </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> Well, viruses are basically nucleic acid. So DNA like is in all of the cells in our body or RNA. And then they have a protein coat and then outside of that they have an envelope that’s made of lipids. So it’s just an outer layer of the virus. And if it’s made of lipids, you can imagine any kind of detergent like when you’re doing your dishes, disrupts all the lipids in the fat. That’s how you get all the grease off your plates. Right? So any detergent like that will disrupt the envelope of the virus and make it non-infective. So cleaning surfaces is a good way to try and eliminate an infective virus particle from, for example, door handles, surfaces, et cetera. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And Professor Wallach, Paul would like to know: should people cancel travel plans given that this virus is already here? Does travelling make the spread worse? And that’s international travel or domestic travel. </p>
<p><strong>Michael Wallach:</strong> So this question has come up to many different governments from around the world who’ve reacted very differently. Australia’s been very strategic in banning travel to certain places. And of course, those places you would not want to travel to at the time when there’s an outbreak like China, Italy, Iran, etc.. I was also asked the question on ABC Tasmania: should the Tasmanians restrict domestic travel to Tasmania? At the time, they had a single case. And I said to them, if you have one case, you most likely have more. You will not prevent the entry of the virus into Tasmania. But what restricting travel can do is restrict the number of people who are seeding that area with virus and make it more manageable. So it’s a question of timing. As I was saying to you earlier, the cost-benefit of closing off travel has to be weighed very carefully because the economic impacts are very great. So I think it’s a case by case basis. Ultimately, the planet is now seeded. And we’re moving into the stage of exponential growth and that it will affect travel very severely, where in all likelihood, travel will be very much curtailed now. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And this question’s from our reader, David. He wants to know: with the flu killing more people each year than coronavirus and mostly the same demographic, why is this outbreak receiving so much attention? Can’t we just catch the flu just as easily without cancelling events and travel plans? </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> Yes, and I understand the question. Flu exists. We get it seasonally every year and then we get pandemic flu. And yes, people do die from influenza. I think it was 16,000 people in the US died last US winter. But the issue with this virus is that we don’t yet know how to treat it particularly well. We’re trialling anti-viral drugs in China at the very moment. There’s clinical trials on experimental drugs. There’s drugs that doctors are using. But until that data comes in and we actually know what regime of anti-viral drugs (are best) to use, then we don’t really yet know how to treat it with anti-viral drugs. The other thing is with flu, we have a vaccine. People can take the vaccine. Somebody gets sick in their family, the other family members can take the vaccine and prevent the spread of the virus. So the difference is with flu, we have ways to control it. We know about the disease. We know how it presents. This virus, we’re still understanding the clinical presentation and in different cohorts. So different age groups, different countries, different situations, we’re still understanding the symptoms. And we don’t yet fully know how to control it by antivirals. And we don’t have a vaccine yet. </p>
<p><strong>Michael Wallach:</strong> Can I just add to that a bit? I think one of the reasons we’re being so careful is when it broke and Wuhan, at the beginning the mortality rate was extremely high. And with related viruses like SARS, and MERS that went as high as 35%, whereas flu mortality rates is usually around 0.1%. So it was that very high mortality rate that gave a real shock. Had it continued, it would have been devastating. We’re very fortunate that now we see it dropping down to the 2 to 3% level and some say much lower. </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> And we also know now that some people get COVID, have very minimal symptoms and almost don’t even know that they’ve been sick. So I think that fear and anxiety, in that sense, is lowering. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And Molly wants to know: how far off is a vaccine? </p>
<p><strong>Michael Wallach:</strong> So, we are working on vaccines in Australia. The group in Melbourne was the first to be able to isolate and grow the virus. And I’ve been in touch with them, in fact, this morning. We’re working collaboratively nationally as well as internationally, collaborating with people at Stanford Medical School who through Stanford, in collaborations we have with them, we have worldwide about 15 vaccine projects going, plus all sorts of industry companies are aiming to make vaccines. In fact, one company in Israel early on announced that they believe that they can get to a vaccine within a few weeks. The problem with the vaccine is you may produce it even quickly, but it’s testing it and making sure that it’s actually going to help. There’s a fear, with COVID-19, that if it is not formulated correctly, to make a long story short, it can actually exacerbate the disease. So everyone has to take it slowly and carefully so that we don’t actually cause more problems than we currently have. But I’m optimistic and believe that we’ll get there. The WHO declared it would take 18 months. I would like to present a more optimistic view, not based on anything that substantial, but I think we can do better than that. And it is a great learning curve for the next time this happens. </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> Can I make a comment on that, too? Recently, we’ve just seen Africa experience a very significant outbreak of Ebola virus, and there’s been an experimental vaccine that’s been administered that has largely controlled that outbreak. I think the people working in vaccines and the people who do the safety and efficacy studies, we’ve learnt a lot from how to administer vaccines, how to get the data we need to show safety more quickly than we might have in the past. So in the sense we’ve learnt, we’re learning lessons constantly from viral outbreaks. It might not be the same virus, might not be the same country, even the same continent. But we’re learning how to do these things more efficiently and more quickly. And always the issue is weighing up safety versus the ethics of the need to administer all get it, get the drug out there as quickly as possible. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> This reader asks: isn’t lining up at fever clinics for tests just going to spread it even more?</p>
<p><strong>Michael Wallach:</strong> So for sure, the way in which people are processed at clinics is crucial and the minimal distance you should keep from a person who’s infected is, according again to the WHO, is one metre. So the clinics have to ensure that spread is minimised, not only spread between people waiting in line, but to the health workers themselves. We’ve had real problems for health workers in China. Several died. And we face that problem here. One of the things we have to do is ensure that we protect our health workers because otherwise they’re not going to want to go in and actually see the patients. Unfortunately, masks alone do not work. We can’t rely on them. So it’s a problem. In Israel, for example, testing for COVID-19, takes place in one’s home. An ambulance pulls up and takes the swab and then takes it to the lab. That actually would be the ideal approach. True, the ambulance services in Israel now are swamped and having great difficulty in coping. But as much as we can keep people separated from each other when they’re infected, it’s crucial for the success of any campaign. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And these questions from Jake. He wants to know for people like myself living in Victoria. How likely is it that we can catch the virus and is hand-washing really the only thing we can be doing to protect ourselves? </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> I think we now know that the virus is definitely in Australia. If you go to the New South Wales or Victorian Health government websites, you can see them update the statistics daily, even less than a day so that the truth is it’s here and it’s probably in more people than we realise because we haven’t tested as many people and we now realise some people are asymptomatic or don’t show classic flu like symptoms. So it’s here and you can’t say that you’re not going to get sick. Alright? That’s the first thing to say. The second thing is, though, we can minimise what we do. Okay. So we can wash our hands constantly. We can try not to touch our face, our eyes, our ears, our nose. We’ve learned, for example, even how do you dispose of a tissue when you sneeze or cough or, you know, sneeze into your elbow? So it’s just about common sense. This is what I think. It’s no different really than protecting yourself from any respiratory virus infection. So seasonal flu or even a pandemic flu. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And how do you dispose of a tissue safely? </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> Well, I guess you fold it in and then you put - you don’t touch it, you don’t put it up your sleeve, OK? - you put it in the garbage bin and wash your hands afterwards. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> Michael would like to know: what can we learn from other countries that are handling this well? He says basically South Korea, as far as I can tell. </p>
<p><strong>Michael Wallach:</strong> So the country that handled this outbreak the best so far has been Taiwan. The Taiwanese have been amazing in the sense that after the pandemic commenced in China, many Taiwanese returned to Taiwan. And you would have expected they’d seed that island very strongly and it would be a major outbreak. They were ready before the pandemic commenced. And that was largely because they went through a SARS outbreak. Previously, they had in place all the testing, all the people. They have the best health system in the world. And they kept the numbers down to 45 cases during a period when in China it was going into the tens of thousands. And they should be commended on that. It’s quite amazing the way they did that. The issue now in Taiwan, which concerns them, is in the end, that’s a great start. But their population now is unexposed and susceptible. So how do you release them from this sort of quarantine situation? That is the next phase. And that’s what we’re looking to see how that works, because same in Wuhan. The minute you put everyone back out to work and in the street, will there be a second wave? Most virologists, I think, would expect there will be a major second wave, third wave and maybe continued into the future. So we have to continue with our preparedness and with the hope that the vaccine will come into effect sooner rather than later. And then bringing the quarantine approach, enabling that peak of viral infection to occur when the vaccine is available. That would be the goal. </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> If I could just add one point there. When you look at the number of cases on a per day basis in Wuhan, it was escalating very quickly. And then they brought in their very strict quarantine and self-isolation. But the cases continued to increase until a point where it started to look like it was under control and going down. And that was after two weeks. So quarantine only works until after the quarantine period, because only after that will you see the effect. So I would argue there’s two factors for why isolation worked in Wuhan: One was you limited the spread through the self-isolation and imposed quarantine, but at the same time, the number of people who are infected and asymptomatic were building their own immunity. The number of people who were infected and sick but who survived, one would imagine, have a robust immune response to that virus. So at the same time as limiting spread, you have also slowly built or actually quite quickly built a community with much higher levels of what we call herd immunity. So this second outbreak may come, but it may be considerably less significant. </p>
<p><strong>Michael Wallach:</strong> In fact, that the areas where there are the major outbreaks maybe have better herd immunity than places where you keep it down to nothing. So it works both ways. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And Jane would like to know: when do we stop testing for this disease and basically just assume that everybody with the sniffles has it?</p>
<p><strong>Michael Wallach:</strong> So first of all, the major symptoms are not sniffles, they are fever and coughing and shortness of breath. It’s the sniffles, though, that causes it to be spreadable more easily. That’s a good question: what the health authorities will decide to do at various stages of this pandemic. We’re now at what I would consider the early seeding phase. The world is now seeded with virus and different countries were going through exponential phases like described in Wuhan at different times. And how do they handle that will be a crucial question. I’ve seen all the different approaches from US, Israel, Iran. I think that a mixture of very strategic quarantine with travel restrictions, with bringing in other types of… certainly health authorities will need to control the number of beds that are being occupied. For example, again, in Israel, they just went over their bed limits, so patients are starting to be treated at home. So at some point, I think depending on how the epidemic goes, if we can keep it under control, we can keep the testing going. We can keep control. If the exponential rise is too fast, we will lose control and the testing will become meaningless. So the hope is that things will be sorted and I think Australia has the opportunity to do really well and big decisions have to be made now. </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> There’s already a paper just this week published in The Lancet that profiles survivors versus those who have succumbed from the infection. And we’re starting to learn what some of those factors are. So as as clinicians can better predict who are likely to be the more seriously ill people, they can better predict who should go to hospital for treatment, and as Michael has said, who are better actually just treated at home. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And Dr. Sedger, Kardia would like to know: how does this virus respond to cold or warm temperatures? Is it like the flu, which thrives in cold weather? </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> I have heard so many different things about this. I will be completely honest and say I’m not certain that we really know. What we know is when this high humidity viruses can exist for longer because they don’t dry out. So that envelope we talked about is less likely to be dried out. And once that’s dried out, the virus is less infective. It’s not actually infective at all if it’s disrupted that envelope. But whether it likes cold temperatures, high temperatures, we think it’s not a warm temperature virus. We think it’s more a cold temperature virus. China’s just been going through their winter. Maybe one of the reasons it’s been big in Italy is they’ve just had winter. We also think the coexistence of seasonal flu in Italy at the same time is probably one of the factors that’s made it more severe. So, yeah, look, different circumstances in different countries, different climates. It’s not just about climate, though. It’s about susceptibility of various populations. Therefore, it’s a hard question to answer (at the moment). </p>
<p><strong>Michael Wallach:</strong> Look, I would say in working in infectious diseases for many years, it’s a very difficult thing to predict. Remember with, it doesn’t matter which disease I was working on, everyone said it can’t transmit in dry climates. And it transmitted beautifully in the desert. And you think everything’s totally dry and it still transmits and vice versa. </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> Well, you’ve got MERS is another coronavirus, which is your Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome, and that’s in the desert climates. So that’s why I wanted to hedge my bets on my answer. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And Professor Wallach, this reader wants to know: once you’ve recovered from coronavirus, can you just go back to your normal, non-isolating life? </p>
<p><strong>Michael Wallach:</strong> So the current understanding, according to colleagues also in the U.S., is if you go through one infection, you’re probably rendered immune against re-infection. There have been reports of cases of people getting re-infected. But the opinion that I heard so far is that it’s probably recurrence of the same infection that probably went down in terms of clinical symptoms. But the virus remained that just came back up. It happens with the flu all the time. The question is, what should be your behaviour after you go through a bout? I guess I would still be careful, which Lisa can maybe add to, it could be that the virus will continue to mutate. Although again, I fortunately heard this morning that they’re not that worried about this virus mutating at the rate that flu does. And we’re hopeful that we will develop herd immunity. People have gone through it then will be fairly safe unless, you have some immune disorder. And then it will become part of our environment just like flu is. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And here’s a question from me. It seems like there’s two camps. There’s the people who genuinely really concerned, quite worried about the situation. We see that in the panic buying. And then there’s the other camp of people who are saying it’s all been blown up. It’s all hype. We don’t really need to worry about it. It’s too early to panic. And I just wondered, how do you reconcile those two views out there in the community? </p>
<p><strong>Michael Wallach:</strong> So early on in this outbreak, when I was interviewed also on the ABC and speaking to other groups, I took a very low panic view, maybe because I’ve been thinking about a pandemic for many years. And for me, it was always not a question of if, but when. I actually look at this, in a way, in a positive sense. We’re facing a pandemic that, yeah, as terrible as it is, is nothing in comparison to what could be if it’s a pandemic flu. For example, we experienced the Spanish flu in 1918, which killed somewhere between 20 to 50 million people. So the order of magnitude of mortality right now is extremely low compared to other potential pandemics. If you take China out of the equation, we’re at about 1500 people who died worldwide. That’s not to say we shouldn’t show great respect for the value of their lives. It’s mainly very elderly people with complicating illnesses and probably would have had the same effect if they were infected by flu. So my take on this whole thing is we all have to stay calm. We all have to accept the fact that this is part of nature. These viruses are out there all the time. We know them. I can detect now flu viruses in wildlife, birds that are coming into this country now, that can mutate and start affecting humans. So we have to be prepared. We have to face up to them, together in a collaborative way, in a scientific and professional way. And we could win. If we panic and react the way the market is, for example, of course, that’s that’s an improper way to react. Rather, this is part of being, of our biology. Viruses exist that can hurt us and they will always exist. </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> Yeah. Look, I think there are a few factors that we can really learn from. So one is to work out where these viruses come from. And a lot of these RNA viruses exist in bats. They seem to be transmitted into wild animals through bat droppings. And I think one of the lessons we, the world all over, might need to learn is how we deal with the marketing and selling of wild animals that are then used for foods. That may then prevent these viruses from getting into the human population. So I think there are lessons to be learned, number one. But Michael, I would disagree with you in one sense “that it is maybe not as bad as pandemic flu”, on the other hand: we do have vaccines for flu, we do have anti-virals. And we have a whole world that has various levels of immunity to flu and different strains of flu. Whereas this virus is entering into a naive (non)-immune population. And that’s what’s so significant to start with. It may be that as our immunity at a population level increases, as a disease this will become far less significant. But the first outbreak of it in a naive, (non)-immune, (and a) “naive population” will always have the highest level of morbidity and mortality. And that’s where we have learned from other diseases like Ebola. As I mentioned, what we already know about flu, how we already control flu and the development of new and novel antiviral agents will be just as effective and important, I believe, as will the development of vaccines. So I think there’s a lot to learn to prevent this or limit, I should say, to limit these the severity of the outbreak and maybe even prevent it from happening again. As I say, if we stop trapping wild animals and eating them, we might prevent the outbreak of some of these type of RNA viruses.</p>
<p><strong>Michael Wallach:</strong> So I certainly agree with that. And China is now putting into law a restriction on the sale of wildlife in their markets. What I’m trying to do, and I hope we both agree, is that in proportion to, for example, influenza, even seasonal flu that killed in one year I think up to 600,000 people worldwide, I’m just trying to put things into proportion. To prevent people from panicking. To understand that, yes, this is affecting the elderly. And anyone who is elderly, suffering from heart or respiratory conditions would certainly isolate themselves. So where my wife’s parents live, where they live in a retirement village, they made a decision to close off the entire village. Nobody’s allowed in, as a means of preventing - because they’re an elderly population - people bringing in COVID-19 and infecting that area. And I certainly agree with that sort of strategy. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And John would like to know: are the death rates likely to be lower in a country like Australia with lower rates of smoking than places such as China, Iran and Indonesia? </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> Again, I think this is a little bit we have to watch and just wait and see. It’s very hard to predict these things. It was intriguing that some of the highest death rates in China appeared to be men as well as just the elderly. And that might be because there’s a high rate of long term smoking. So almost like an endemic lung pathology within that community that somehow exacerbated the disease. In Australia, we may find that there are different populations that are the most at risk. So we know, for example, the virus uses a receptor to get inside of cells that is a protein present on cardiac tissue. So people with known cardiac conditions may turn out to be at higher risk. And in a non-smoking type country, maybe people with existing heart conditions will turn out to be the most at risk. In America, we might find something quite different. What we might find is it’s more socio-economic. Maybe people without health insurance. Maybe people who are homeless and live on the streets will turn out to be the most affected because they have limited resources to be able to get treatment and they can’t afford treatment. So I think each country will be different. We mentioned earlier Italy has one of the highest fatality rates at the moment. That may be because they actually have a large number of people within their population that are over 65. So it might actually be not that surprising given that demographic. It might also be that they’ve had an outbreak of seasonal flu at the same time. We don’t know whether one type of virus limits the other. It’s quite possible you can get co-infections and that’s where people get the most sick. I think it’s going to pan out in different countries slightly differently. I think it’s a case of watch this space. </p>
<p><strong>Michael Wallach:</strong> The other thing, just on the rate of transmission. What they go according to is the people who show up to the clinic. And the results from a study done in China indicate that they may have only picked up 5% of the people that have COVID-19. So it’s about 20-fold more than actually recorded because it’s mild and very little symptoms. The other thing that’s becoming a little disconcerting for scientists is there may be two strains of the virus. And the initial outbreak, as I said, the mortality rate was very high. It could be the virus, in order to transmit, went through a mutation that aided its transmission. And I would hope that would probably occur in pandemic flu. Maybe a little less pathogenic than the original strain was. I was surprised to see at the beginning such high mortality and then how it dropped down. That’s the results also put online by the CDC. And we’re looking and following that. </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> Yes, viral evolution is a really key topic at the moment. We think RNA viruses and the rate that they mutate is much higher than DNA viruses. And it’s really a factor of how quickly the virus mutates and how quickly a person’s immune response is able to effectively control the virus replication. So the viruses that sometimes persist longer in a community are not necessarily the most virulent. So what we might also be seeing is a population, a group within the population who get a less severe disease, maybe even asymptomatic, but that may, long term, prove to be the bigger - how could I put this? - the bigger population of viruses that exist within that community.</p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And Michael would like to know: if I could shrink myself down to microscopic size and watch a virus invade a cell, what would I see? </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> Well, a virus is not like a bacteria. A bacteria is a entity all of its own, and it can replicate and make another copy of itself and grow on a nutrient source. A virus, however, is sometimes called a non-living entity because outside of a human cell, it can’t replicate. It just exists as an entity. A virus is essentially just a piece of DNA, which is, you know, in the nucleus of every cell. It’s what our chromosomes are made of. So it’s either DNA or RNA surrounded by a protein coat and sometimes it’s also a lipid-based envelope outside of that, again. The virus will somehow encounter a cell. And for respiratory viruses, it’s largely by us inhaling water vapour droplets. They may contain hundreds of viruses. Those viruses then will attach or be exposed to our respiratory epithelium. If the virus can actually bind to the respiratory epithelium cell, then it might get inside. Once inside, it may or may not have the capacity to actually undergo replication, but it has to uncoat from that protein shell. Then the nucleic acid, the DNA or RNA has to make another copy of itself. Then all the genes that are in the virus have to get expressed as proteins. They then reassemble into a new viral particle and then the virus will get out of the cell. Sometimes it <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysis">lyses</a> (breaks) the cell, sometimes it will just buds out from the cell and leave the cell intact. And that’s what a virus is. That’s why we, some people call them living or non-living because they can only replicate in inside a cell, a host cell.</p>
<p><strong>Michael Wallach:</strong> And it’s not like viruses have a will. So if they want to do this, it’s just part of evolution. </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> Yes, I’m never a favour of the argument you sometimes see people say “it’s warfare, it’s the virus vs. immune system!” But there’s no will involved, it’s just capacity of life to replicate itself. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And Deidre writes in to say, I heard on the radio today that half the population is likely to get this. And with, say, a 1% death rate, the body count will add up. And I wondered what you thought of that. </p>
<p><strong>Michael Wallach:</strong> So there was an announcement actually by Angela Merkel preparing Germany for 70% of the population being infected. Lisa may say the number is lower, I don’t know, until we build up herd immunity. The question of the mortality rate, as I alluded to before, I think based on what again, CDC and WHO are writing, is probably overestimated. Some estimate the mortality rate as being much lower. That’s not to say… every death is a family and has to be looked at and be concerned about. So again, I think and would like to hope that as we develop new vaccines, as we develop drugs, as we develop approaches to quarantine people, test them, keep them at home, isolate them, we’ll get the mortality rate under control. And I’m going to express an optimistic view. This world has amazing capabilities of doing amazing science. And if we apply it and work together, I think we can control this problem. </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> Yes, absolutely. I would endorse that. And I’d say that the mortality rates at the moment simply reflect who is being tested. And it’s primarily people who are turning up with symptoms. But we’re now beginning to appreciate that there is a large number of people who could be quite asymptomatic, who are never tested. This virus will certainly have infected many more people than will be tested. And if we did have surveillance of every single person being tested, then there’s two questions here: Are you testing for the presence of the virus? If they’ve had virtually no symptoms and not a big illness, you might not find the virus. But if we test for the presence of an immune response to the virus, we would truly know how many people have been infected. And then we could get a true estimate or at least a much closer estimate of what the mortality rate really is. So at the moment, there’s hyperbole.</p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And Catherine asks, what is the likelihood of transmission through using a public swimming pool? </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> I would think quite small because a) the virus would be quite diluted in a swimming pool. Secondly, swimming pools are all treated with chlorine, for example, and chlorine is a very effective anti-viral agent. You’d have to drink a lot of swimming pool water to get the virus. </p>
<p><strong>Michael Wallach:</strong> I agree with that. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> Candy would like to know: there are conflicting symptoms lists circulating on Facebook. One says it starts with a dry cough and if your nose is running, it is not COVID-19, which I suspect is incorrect. Can we please have an accurate list? </p>
<p><strong>Michael Wallach:</strong> So, again, the major symptoms are, in fact, the cough and shortness of breath and fever. But, it’s not to say it’s not possible that you’ll have also upper respiratory effects. The virus goes into the lung and attaches to the alveolar cells or to the cells that make up our air sacs and that help our breathing. And it has to get there to really cause this disease. So if there’s upper respiratory involvement, which includes sneezing and runny nose, et cetera, it’s probably not the main effect of the virus. Again, I would say if you see that somebody is sneezing and wheezing and and that’s it, it’s probably an allergy, but it does frighten people. I was on the train this morning, and I know if I, God forbid, sneezed the whole train would empty out pretty quickly. </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> You know, we’re just coming into winter. And actually, it’s a really good question because at the moment, what’s building is a sense of fear. But we must keep in perspective that there will also still be the normal seasonal cases of flu. So just because somebody sneezes or has a sore throat does not mean that they’ve got COVID-19. And we need to make sure, I think it’s really important that we don’t stigmatise people who have symptoms because it may not even be COVID. And we’re all at risk from any respiratory tract infections and already have been for years. That’s not a new thing. We just need to keep things in perspective. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> A question from Karen: can you catch it twice? </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> Normally, I would have said no, because we imagine that there’s a good immune response that will then provide you protection from re-infection. That’s what our immune system does. But this is a new virus. We don’t yet fully understand how our immune system clears it. We don’t know whether virus can remain for a longer period of time. I would would say, though, that there are only a few cases of people who have been treated, appear to have recovered, they’ve gone home, they’ve then had another relapse. There’s only a very few number of cases that have been like that. So for all intents and purposes, I don’t think that’s something we should fear and it’s not something we’ve seen with the previous SARS outbreak in 2003. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And Tim would like to know: how will quarantine work in a family? </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> Yeah, it’s interesting, isn’t it? We think of quarantine as being away from work or away from public places. But really, if you have been infected, then the people in your family are as at risk as your work colleagues would be at work. Again, I think it’s about just common sense. Don’t share food utensils, wash your hands, don’t keep touching your face and your mouth and your nose. Get rid of tissues in a nice sort of clean manner. It’s about minimising transmission. </p>
<p><strong>Michael Wallach:</strong> Let me just add to that, that all the data indicates that children likely will only get very mild symptoms, if at all. So if you’re a family member and you’re worried about your children, this is one time that you can be happy about this. All the results so far indicate that children aged zero to nine, there’s not been a single death. </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> Whereas what we do know is the elderly appear to be more susceptible to a more severe disease. So that’s where if I’m sick, it’s better not to go and visit my grandparents or something like that. That’s where quarantine within the family works in a practical sense. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And just to finish up, is there anything else that you’d like to add? </p>
<p><strong>Lisa Sedger:</strong> Yeah, I think I’d just want to finish with a really positive note. I mean, we live in an amazing era of medical research and science. Within within a very, very short period of time, parts of the virus had been sequenced. We now track the virus in its entire sequence. We know, we have clinical trials for the drugs. We have people working on vaccines. We have epidemiologists better understanding the disease susceptibility within a population. I mean, we learn a lot from other existing outbreaks of infectious diseases. And I remain positive that, you know, the medical and scientific community working together will be able to solve this. I’m quite confident that there’s a really strong response. That’s not to diminish that people have died and it’s been tragic. But we live in an era where we’re exposed to infectious agents and we are getting better and better at controlling most of those infections. </p>
<p><strong>Michael Wallach:</strong> So I’ll just add and put in a plug for a program I’m very much involved with called Spark working with people at Stanford. We established a program for exactly this time, when there’s sudden outbreaks. And the program now involves 23 countries and around 70 institutions, all working together for outbreaks of Zika, Ebola and now coronavirus. It gives me great hope that, apart from what you said, we’re now working together collaboratively like never before. We’re putting our egos outside and we’re saying we have social responsibility to do better. Certainly, in the case of a pandemic. And we’re doing it. And we’re very proud to be able to say we have 15 projects going on now collaboratively that we just formed over the past two weeks, together with our colleagues all over the world. I also believe in a very bright future.</p>
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<h2>Production credits</h2>
<p><em>Recording by <a href="https://lx.uts.edu.au/programs/postgraduate-futures/">postgraduate.futures</a> at the University of Technology Sydney.</em></p>
<p><em>Audio editing by Sunanda Creagh.</em></p>
<p><em>Theme beats by Unkle Ho from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks</a>.</em></p>
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Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/coronavirus-is-stressful-here-are-some-ways-to-cope-with-the-anxiety-133146">Coronavirus is stressful. Here are some ways to cope with the anxiety</a>
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<img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/133617/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
What do you need to know about COVID-19 and coronavirus? We asked our readers for their top questions and sought answers from two of Australia's leading virus and vaccine experts.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1320882020-03-09T01:05:01Z2020-03-09T01:05:01ZWe asked astronomers: are we alone in the Universe? The answer was surprisingly consistent<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/316083/original/file-20200219-10980-1evj2d8.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=0%2C50%2C4664%2C3591&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">
</span> <span class="attribution"><span class="source">Shutterstock</span></span></figcaption></figure><p>Are we alone in the Universe? The expert opinion on that, it turns out, is surprisingly consistent.</p>
<p>“Is there other life in the Universe? I would say: probably,” Daniel Zucker, Associate Professor of astronomy at Macquarie University, tells astrophysics student and The Conversation’s editorial intern Antonio Tarquinio on today’s podcast episode. </p>
<p>“I think that we will discover life outside of Earth in my lifetime. If not that, then in your lifetime,” says his fellow Macquarie University colleague, Professor Orsola De Marco.</p>
<p>And Lee Spitler, a Senior Lecturer and astronomy researcher at the same institution, was similarly optimistic: “I think there’s a high likelihood that we are not alone in the Universe.” </p>
<p>The big question, however, is what that life might look like.</p>
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Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/the-dish-in-parkes-is-scanning-the-southern-milky-way-searching-for-alien-signals-129919">The Dish in Parkes is scanning the southern Milky Way, searching for alien signals</a>
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<p>We’re also hearing from Danny C Price, project scientist for the <a href="https://breakthroughinitiatives.org/initiative/1">Breakthrough Listen</a> project scanning the southern skies for unusual patterns, on what the search for alien intelligence looks like in real life - and what it’s yielded so far.</p>
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Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/the-size-the-grandeur-the-peacefulness-of-being-in-the-dark-what-its-like-to-study-space-at-siding-spring-observatory-128998">'The size, the grandeur, the peacefulness of being in the dark': what it's like to study space at Siding Spring Observatory</a>
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<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Everything you need to know about how to listen to a podcast is <a href="https://theconversation.com/how-to-listen-to-podcasts-130882">here</a>.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a> </p>
<p><strong>Additional audio credits</strong></p>
<p><em>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks.</a></em></p>
<p><em>Lucky Stars by Podington Bear, from <a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Podington_Bear/Textural/Lucky_Stars_1189">Free Music Archive</a></em></p>
<p><em>Illumination by Kai Engel, from <a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Kai_Engel/Satin_1564/Kai_Engel_-_Satin_-_02_Illumination">Free Music Archive</a></em></p>
<p><em>Podcast episode recorded and edited by Antonio Tarquinio.</em></p>
<h2>Lead image</h2>
<p><em>Shutterstock</em></p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/132088/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
'I think that we will discover life outside of Earth in my lifetime. If not that, then in your lifetime,' one astronomer told us.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorAntonio Tarquinio, Editorial InternLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1315692020-02-23T23:57:15Z2020-02-23T23:57:15ZMore than 70% of the Universe is made of ‘dark energy’, the mysterious stuff even stranger than dark matter<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/314692/original/file-20200211-146714-1yjz3ie.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=0%2C26%2C3589%2C2667&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">
</span> <span class="attribution"><span class="source">Shutterstock</span></span></figcaption></figure><p>You’ve heard of dark matter. You’ve probably heard there’s a fair bit of it out there in space, and that astronomers don’t know for sure what it is. </p>
<p>But, strange as dark matter is, there’s an even more mysterious thing out there in the Universe – and quite a <em>lot</em> of it.</p>
<p><a href="https://theconversation.com/au/topics/dark-energy-328">Dark energy</a>, believed to be responsible for the acceleration of the expansion of the Universe, makes up the vast majority of space. </p>
<p>Today, editorial intern and astrophysics student Cameron Furlong, dives into what we know about dark energy and what it means for our place in the Universe. </p>
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Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/the-dish-in-parkes-is-scanning-the-southern-milky-way-searching-for-alien-signals-129919">The Dish in Parkes is scanning the southern Milky Way, searching for alien signals</a>
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<hr>
<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Everything you need to know about how to listen to a podcast is <a href="https://theconversation.com/how-to-listen-to-podcasts-130882">here</a>.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a> </p>
<p><strong>Additional audio credits</strong></p>
<p><em>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks.</a></em></p>
<p><em>Pulsars by Podington Bear, from <a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Podington_Bear/Textural/Pulsars">Free Music Archive</a></em></p>
<p><em>Podcast episode recorded and edited by Cameron Furlong.</em></p>
<h2>Lead image</h2>
<p><em>Shutterstock</em></p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/the-size-the-grandeur-the-peacefulness-of-being-in-the-dark-what-its-like-to-study-space-at-siding-spring-observatory-128998">'The size, the grandeur, the peacefulness of being in the dark': what it's like to study space at Siding Spring Observatory</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/131569/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
Today on the podcast, we explore what we know about dark energy, believed to be responsible for the acceleration of the expansion of the Universe.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorCameron Furlong, Editorial InternLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1305382020-01-31T01:21:34Z2020-01-31T01:21:34Z‘Futuring’ can help us survive the climate crisis. And guess what? You’re a futurist too<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/312715/original/file-20200130-41503-1bur327.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=0%2C8%2C5568%2C3692&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">When we are imagining this time, next year, are we limiting our thinking to how we avoid the conditions we faced in this summer? Or are there bigger questions we can ask?</span> <span class="attribution"><span class="source">Shutterstock</span></span></figcaption></figure><p><em>Editor’s note: Today, on <a href="https://theconversation.com/au/podcasts/trust-me-podcast">Trust Me, I’m An Expert</a>, we hear from Clare Cooper, design lecturer at the University of Sydney, on how futuring techniques can help us think collectively about life under a drastically hotter climate. Her accompanying essay is below.</em></p>
<hr>
<p>Australians, no matter where we are, are coming to acknowledge that our summers – and our autumns, winters and springs – are forever changed. </p>
<p>We are, bit by bit, reviewing our assumptions. Whether we need to radically <a href="https://theconversation.com/as-bushfire-and-holiday-seasons-converge-it-may-be-time-to-say-goodbye-to-the-typical-australian-summer-holiday-129337">rethink our calendars</a>, or question where and how we <a href="https://theconversation.com/before-we-rush-to-rebuild-after-fires-we-need-to-think-about-where-and-how-130049">rebuild homes and towns</a>, we face a choice: collective, creative adaptation or increased devastation. </p>
<p>How might this time next year feel - anxious, hot and sticky? How might it smell - like bushfire smoke? How might it <a href="https://www.whimn.com.au/play/unwind/brace-yourself-climate-change-is-coming-for-our-wine-supply/news-story/7e68c8514ae77e4bbb066b71a368595e">taste</a> - would seafood and berries still be on the menu in future summers as our climate changes? (One of my favourite placards at a recent climate rally was “shit climate = shit wine”).</p>
<p>When we think about this time next year, are we freaking out, or are we futuring?</p>
<figure class="align-center zoomable">
<a href="https://images.theconversation.com/files/312720/original/file-20200130-41481-1umga91.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip"><img alt="" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/312720/original/file-20200130-41481-1umga91.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/312720/original/file-20200130-41481-1umga91.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=450&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/312720/original/file-20200130-41481-1umga91.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=450&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/312720/original/file-20200130-41481-1umga91.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=450&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/312720/original/file-20200130-41481-1umga91.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=566&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/312720/original/file-20200130-41481-1umga91.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=566&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/312720/original/file-20200130-41481-1umga91.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=566&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px"></a>
<figcaption>
<span class="caption">How might the Australian summer of the future look, taste, smell?</span>
<span class="attribution"><span class="source">Shutterstock</span></span>
</figcaption>
</figure>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/why-we-should-make-time-for-remembering-the-future-32264">Why we should make time for remembering the future</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<h2>Collaborative futuring in a climate crisis</h2>
<p>“Futuring” is sometimes called futures studies, futurology, scenario design or foresight thinking. It has been <a href="https://www.shell.com/energy-and-innovation/the-energy-future/scenarios/what-are-scenarios.html">used</a> in the business world for decades.</p>
<p>Futuring means thinking systematically about the future, drawing on scientific data, analysing trends, imagining scenarios (both plausible and unlikely) and thinking creatively. A crucial part of the process is thinking hard about the kind of future we might want to avoid and the steps needed to work toward a certain desired future. </p>
<p>But futurists aren’t magical people who sweep in and solve problems for you. They facilitate discussions and collaboration but the answers ultimately come from communities themselves. Artists and writers have been creatively imagining the future for millennia. Futuring is a crucial part of design and culture-building.</p>
<p>My research looks at how futuring can help communities work toward a just and fair transition to a drastically warmer world and greater weather extremes.</p>
<p>Collaborative futuring invites audiences to respond to probable, possible, plausible and preposterous future scenarios as the climate crisis sets in. This process can reveal assumptions, biases and possible courses of action.</p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/how-we-forecast-future-technologies-20313">How we forecast future technologies</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<h2>Getting creative</h2>
<p>Futuring is not predicting futures.</p>
<p>It’s a way of mixing informed projections with imaginative critical design to invite us to think differently about our current predicaments. That can help us step back from the moment of panic and instead proactively design steps to change things for the better – not 20 years from now, but from today.</p>
<p>If you peeked into a futuring workshop with adults, you might see a lot of lively conversations and a bunch of post-it notes. For kids, you might see them making collages, or creating cardboard prototypes of emerging technology.</p>
<p>You might have done some futuring today, talking with friends and family about changes you might make as it becomes obvious our summers will grow only hotter.</p>
<p>I’ve seen futuring occur at my daughter’s school, where children are invited to imagine being on the other side of a difficult problem, and then work out the steps needed to get there. </p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/this-situation-brings-me-to-despair-two-reef-scientists-share-their-climate-grief-123520">'This situation brings me to despair': two reef scientists share their climate grief</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<h2>Futuring a just transition to a warmer world</h2>
<p>When we are imagining this time next year, are we limiting our (mostly city-dwelling) thinking to how we avoid the conditions we faced in this summer?</p>
<p>For example, are we thinking about staying away from bushfire-prone areas, or buying air purifiers and face masks? For those who can afford it, are we thinking about booking extended overseas holidays? </p>
<p>Or are we challenging each other to think beyond such avoidance strategies: to imagine a post-Murdoch press and a post-fossil fuel lobby future? Can we imagine ways to respond to extreme weather beyond individual prepping?</p>
<p>Including a diverse range of voices, especially Indigenous community members, is crucial to a just transition to a warmer world. We can’t allow a changed climate to mean comfortable adaptation for a wealthy elite while everyone else suffers.</p>
<p>Many of us have joined climate <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/20/hundreds-of-thousands-attend-school-climate-strike-rallies-across-australia">protests</a> in recent months and years. </p>
<p>But more work needs to be done and bigger questions asked. What steps are needed to meet demands for public ownership of a renewable energy system: more support for those battling and displaced by bushfires? How do we work toward First Nations justice, including funding for Indigenous-led land management, jobs on Country, and land and water rights?</p>
<p>It is not enough to pin an image of our future to a wall and pray we get there.</p>
<p>Short term fixes in the form of drought or emergency relief won’t address the fact that extreme weather events are not going away. </p>
<p>Responsible, useful futuring mixes equal parts of imagination and informed projections. It’s not wild speculation. Futuring practitioners draw on scientific and social data, and weave it with the stories, concerns and desires of those present to find new ways into a problem.</p>
<figure class="align-center zoomable">
<a href="https://images.theconversation.com/files/312725/original/file-20200130-41495-15rdwgd.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip"><img alt="" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/312725/original/file-20200130-41495-15rdwgd.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/312725/original/file-20200130-41495-15rdwgd.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=400&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/312725/original/file-20200130-41495-15rdwgd.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=400&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/312725/original/file-20200130-41495-15rdwgd.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=400&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/312725/original/file-20200130-41495-15rdwgd.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=503&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/312725/original/file-20200130-41495-15rdwgd.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=503&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/312725/original/file-20200130-41495-15rdwgd.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=503&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px"></a>
<figcaption>
<span class="caption">Short term fixes in the form of drought or emergency relief won’t address the fact that extreme weather events are not going away.</span>
<span class="attribution"><span class="source">Shutterstock</span></span>
</figcaption>
</figure>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/what-would-a-fair-energy-transition-look-like-107366">What would a fair energy transition look like?</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<h2>Speaking of catastrophe to avoid it</h2>
<p>Former Labor prime minister Paul Keating last year <a href="https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-05/live-labor-federal-election-campaign-launch/11081080">criticised</a> the Morrison government for what he saw as a lack of vision:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>If you look, there is no panorama. There’s no vista. There’s no shape. There’s no talk about where Australia fits in the world.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Prime Minister Scott Morrison’s performance during the unfolding bushfire horrors – widely perceived as lacklustre – suggests growing thirst for bolder vision on dealing with “the new normal.”</p>
<p>In their book <a href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25668524-design-and-the-question-of-history">Design and the Question of History</a>, design scholars Tony Fry, Clive Dilnot and Susan Stewart <a href="https://books.google.com.au/books?id=InUpBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA243&lpg=PA243&dq=tony+fry+%E2%80%9Cin+order+to+avoid+it%E2%80%9D.&source=bl&ots=jbVJdUR68v&sig=ACfU3U2Xoc9wV_4Bnnl1xKzH8PcIIQZ2qQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiL_ffwkKrnAhV9xzgGHU1JDYYQ6AEwCnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=tony%20fry%20%E2%80%9Cin%20order%20to%20avoid%20it%E2%80%9D.&f=false">argue</a> that we should speak of catastrophe “in order to avoid it”. </p>
<p>Polish-born sociologist Zygmunt Bauman <a href="https://books.google.com.au/books?id=TjeJHdTBRPkC&pg=PT129&lpg=PT129&dq=prophesying+the+advent+of+that+catastrophe+as+passionately+and+vociferously+as+we+can+manage+is+the+sole+chance+of+making+the+unavoidable+avoidable%E2%80%94and+perhaps+even+the+inevitable+impossible+to+happen&source=bl&ots=keUTyhQFYV&sig=ACfU3U2jSuOwqJ83kDSa9RgBGxIlt6BkOQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiMo6-pjKrnAhWf9nMBHfnoCRgQ6AEwAHoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=prophesying%20the%20advent%20of%20that%20catastrophe%20as%20passionately%20and%20vociferously%20as%20we%20can%20manage%20is%20the%20sole%20chance%20of%20making%20the%20unavoidable%20avoidable%E2%80%94and%20perhaps%20even%20the%20inevitable%20impossible%20to%20happen&f=false">wrote</a></p>
<blockquote>
<p>prophesying the advent of that catastrophe as passionately and vociferously as we can manage is the sole chance of making the unavoidable avoidable — and perhaps even the inevitable impossible to happen.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>We owe it to those worst affected by the climate crisis – and to ourselves – to dedicate time to collaborative futuring as we rethink life in an increasingly hostile climate. </p>
<p>The next time you’re having a chat about this time, next year, are you collectively fretting or collaboratively futuring?</p>
<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Everything you need to know about how to listen to a podcast is <a href="https://theconversation.com/how-to-listen-to-podcasts-130882">here</a>.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a> </p>
<p><strong>Additional audio credits</strong></p>
<p><em>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks.</a></em></p>
<p><em>Not Much by Podington Bear, from <a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Podington_Bear/Thoughtful/Not_Much">Free Music Archive</a></em></p>
<p><em>Above Us by David Szesztay, from <a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/David_Szesztay/20170730112627760/Above_Us">Free Music Archive</a></em></p>
<p><em>Pshaw by Podington Bear, from <a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/David_Szesztay/20170730112627760/Above_Us">Free Music Archive</a></em></p>
<p><em>Podcast episode recorded and edited by Sunanda Creagh.</em></p>
<h2>Lead image</h2>
<p><em>Shutterstock</em></p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/130538/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
<p class="fine-print"><em><span>Clare M. Cooper has an ongoing residential subsidy from Inner West Council for Frontyard Projects, a community research space. She is a member of the NTEU and Workers for Climate Action.
</span></em></p>When think about this time next year, are we freaking out, or are we futuring?Clare M. Cooper, Design Lecturer, University of SydneyLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1308822020-01-30T05:27:36Z2020-01-30T05:27:36ZHow to listen to podcasts<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/312778/original/file-20200130-41503-1k4j560.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=0%2C0%2C5593%2C2804&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">Your phone probably already has a podcast app installed.</span> <span class="attribution"><span class="source">Shutterstock</span></span></figcaption></figure><h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click <a href="https://pca.st/VTv7">here</a> to listen to Trust Me, I’m An Expert on Pocket Casts).</p>
<p>You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, I’m An Expert.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a></p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/130882/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1299192020-01-15T23:23:37Z2020-01-15T23:23:37ZThe Dish in Parkes is scanning the southern Milky Way, searching for alien signals<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/309915/original/file-20200114-151853-19x0fb7.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=0%2C13%2C3008%2C1981&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">The Parkes radio telescope can detect extremely weak signals coming from the most distant parts of the Universe.</span> <span class="attribution"><span class="source">Shutterstock</span></span></figcaption></figure><p>For John Sarkissian, operations scientist at the CSIRO Parkes radio telescope, astronomy has been his life’s passion – starting from the age of six. </p>
<p>“When I was six years old, I watched Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin walk on the Moon,” he says of the radio telescope made famous in the film The Dish.</p>
<p>“In fact, on the cover of my year nine mathematics textbook was a painting of the Parkes radio telescope. I remember sitting in the class staring at the painting and daydreaming working there one day. And so here I am now, 40 some years later.”</p>
<p>Today, on Trust Me I’m An Expert, editorial intern Antonio Tarquinio speaks to Sarkissian about the research underway at one of Australia’s most famous astronomical research facilities including:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>the role Parkes is playing right now in the search for extra-terrestrial intelligence</p></li>
<li><p>how the telescope detects extremely weak signals coming from the most distant parts of the Universe</p></li>
<li><p>why even a light breeze can imperil the dish unless it’s in the right position</p></li>
<li><p>how the explosion of phones, wi-fi and radio frequency interference is affecting research in the once-deserted Parkes location.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>And Sarkissian’s own take on whether Parkes will help find alien life?</p>
<p>“Well, as of today, the only place we know of the entire Universe that there is definitely life is right here on Earth,” he says. </p>
<p>“And what does that say? It says that we should appreciate our place in the Universe a little more.”</p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/the-size-the-grandeur-the-peacefulness-of-being-in-the-dark-what-its-like-to-study-space-at-siding-spring-observatory-128998">'The size, the grandeur, the peacefulness of being in the dark': what it's like to study space at Siding Spring Observatory</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click <a href="https://pca.st/VTv7">here</a> to listen to Trust Me, I’m An Expert on Pocket Casts).</p>
<p>You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, I’m An Expert.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a> </p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-what-science-says-about-how-to-lose-weight-and-whether-you-really-need-to-122635">Trust Me, I'm An Expert: what science says about how to lose weight and whether you really need to</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<p><strong>Additional audio</strong></p>
<p><em>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks.</a></em></p>
<p><em>Extra Dimension by Kri Tik, from <a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Kri_Tik">Free Music Archive</a></em></p>
<h2>Images</h2>
<p><em>Shutterstock</em></p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/darkness-is-disappearing-and-thats-bad-news-for-astronomy-51989">Darkness is disappearing and that's bad news for astronomy</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/129919/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
Today we hear about the Parkes radio telescope's role in the search for alien life. Our guide is the irrepressible John Sarkissian, the scientist who's had his eye on The Dish since childhood.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorAntonio Tarquinio, Editorial InternLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1289982019-12-18T18:58:08Z2019-12-18T18:58:08Z‘The size, the grandeur, the peacefulness of being in the dark’: what it’s like to study space at Siding Spring Observatory<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/307307/original/file-20191217-123992-12tnqvo.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=8%2C17%2C5739%2C3025&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">Today we hear about some of the fascinating space research underway at Siding Spring Observatory – and how, despite gruelling hours and endless paperwork, astronomers retain their sense of wonder for the night sky.</span> <span class="attribution"><span class="source">Shutterstock</span></span></figcaption></figure><p>How did our galaxy form? How do galaxies evolve over time? Where did the Sun’s lost siblings end up?</p>
<p>Three hours north-east of Parkes lies a remote astronomical research facility, unpolluted by city lights, where researchers are collecting vast amounts of data in an effort to unlock some of the biggest questions about our Universe. </p>
<p>Siding Spring Observatory, or SSO, is one of Australia’s top sites for astronomical research. You’ve probably heard of the Parkes telescope, made famous by the movie The Dish, but SSO is also a key character in Australia’s space research story.</p>
<p>In this episode, astrophysics student and Conversation intern Cameron Furlong goes to SSO to check out the huge Anglo Australian Telescope (AAT), the largest optical telescope in Australia.</p>
<figure class="align-center zoomable">
<a href="https://images.theconversation.com/files/307308/original/file-20191217-124022-j2z8ws.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip"><img alt="" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/307308/original/file-20191217-124022-j2z8ws.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/307308/original/file-20191217-124022-j2z8ws.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=398&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/307308/original/file-20191217-124022-j2z8ws.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=398&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/307308/original/file-20191217-124022-j2z8ws.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=398&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/307308/original/file-20191217-124022-j2z8ws.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=501&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/307308/original/file-20191217-124022-j2z8ws.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=501&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/307308/original/file-20191217-124022-j2z8ws.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=501&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px"></a>
<figcaption>
<span class="caption">Siding Spring Observatory, north east of Parkes.</span>
<span class="attribution"><span class="source">Shutterstock</span></span>
</figcaption>
</figure>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/darkness-is-disappearing-and-thats-bad-news-for-astronomy-51989">Darkness is disappearing and that's bad news for astronomy</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<p>And we hear about Huntsman, a new specialised telescope that uses off-the-shelf Canon camera lenses – a bit like those you see sports photographers using at the cricket or the footy – to study very faint regions of space around other galaxies.</p>
<figure class="align-right zoomable">
<a href="https://images.theconversation.com/files/307298/original/file-20191216-124016-b2k0ag.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip"><img alt="" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/307298/original/file-20191216-124016-b2k0ag.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=237&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/307298/original/file-20191216-124016-b2k0ag.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=400&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/307298/original/file-20191216-124016-b2k0ag.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=400&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/307298/original/file-20191216-124016-b2k0ag.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=400&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/307298/original/file-20191216-124016-b2k0ag.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=502&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/307298/original/file-20191216-124016-b2k0ag.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=502&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/307298/original/file-20191216-124016-b2k0ag.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=502&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px"></a>
<figcaption>
<span class="caption">Students use telescopes to observe the night sky near Coonabarabran, not far from SSO.</span>
<span class="attribution"><span class="source">Cameron Furlong</span></span>
</figcaption>
</figure>
<p>Listen in to hear more about some of the most fascinating space research underway in Australia – and how, despite gruelling hours and endless paperwork, astronomers retain their sense of wonder for the night sky. </p>
<p>“For me, it means remembering how small I am in this enormous Universe. I think it’s very easy to forget, when you go about your daily life,” said Richard McDermid, an ARC Future Fellow and astronomer at Macquarie University.</p>
<p>“It’s nice to get back into it to a dark place and having a clear sky. And then you get to remember all the interesting and fascinating things, the size, the grandeur and the peacefulness of being in the dark.”</p>
<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click <a href="https://pca.st/VTv7">here</a> to listen to Trust Me, I’m An Expert on Pocket Casts).</p>
<p>You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, I’m An Expert.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a> </p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-what-science-says-about-how-to-lose-weight-and-whether-you-really-need-to-122635">Trust Me, I'm An Expert: what science says about how to lose weight and whether you really need to</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<p><strong>Additional audio</strong></p>
<p><em>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks.</a></em></p>
<p><em><a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Podington_Bear/Textural/Lucky_Stars_1189">Lucky Stars</a> by Podington Bear from Free Music Archive.</em></p>
<p><em><a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Blue_Dot_Sessions/20190309173200900/Slimheart">Slimheart by Blue Dot Sessions</a> from Free Music Archive.</em></p>
<p><em><a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Kai_Engel">Illumination</a> by Kai Engel from Free Music Archive.</em></p>
<p><em><a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Xylo-Ziko/Phase_2">Phase 2 by Xylo-Ziko</a> from Free Music Archive.</em></p>
<p><em><a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Kri_Tik">Extra Dimensions by Kri Tik</a> from Free Music Archive.</em></p>
<p><em><a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Meydan">Pure Water by Meydän</a>, from Free Music Archive.</em></p>
<h2>Images</h2>
<p><em>Shutterstock</em></p>
<p><em>Cameron Furlong</em></p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/antibiotic-resistant-superbugs-kill-32-plane-loads-of-people-a-week-we-can-all-help-fight-back-125813">Antibiotic resistant superbugs kill 32 plane-loads of people a week. We can all help fight back</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/128998/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
Three hours north-east of Parkes lies a remote astronomical research facility, unpolluted by city lights, where researchers are trying to unlock some of the biggest questions about our Universe.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorCameron Furlong, Editorial InternLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1258132019-11-26T18:41:52Z2019-11-26T18:41:52ZAntibiotic resistant superbugs kill 32 plane-loads of people a week. We can all help fight back<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/303067/original/file-20191122-112975-1imzmd6.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=8%2C17%2C5982%2C3970&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">Antibiotics can be a wonder for treating bacterial infections – but we need to be cautious in how we use them.</span> <span class="attribution"><span class="source">From shutterstock.com</span></span></figcaption></figure><p>You might think antibiotic resistance is something to worry about in the distant future. But it’s already having a deadly impact today.</p>
<p>The number of people dying globally every week from antibiotic resistant infections is <a href="https://www.who.int/antimicrobial-resistance/interagency-coordination-group/IACG_final_report_EN.pdf?ua=1">equivalent to 32 Boeing 747s</a> full of people. And if that sounds scary, the projections for the future are even scarier.</p>
<p>On today’s episode of <a href="https://theconversation.com/au/podcasts/trust-me-podcast">Trust Me, I’m An Expert</a> we ask you to imagine a future where more and more antibiotics don’t work any more – and hear from researchers about how you can help scientists fight back.</p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/this-is-going-to-affect-how-we-determine-time-since-death-how-studying-body-donors-in-the-bush-is-changing-forensic-science-117662">'This is going to affect how we determine time since death': how studying body donors in the bush is changing forensic science</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click <a href="https://pca.st/VTv7">here</a> to listen to Trust Me, I’m An Expert on Pocket Casts).</p>
<p>You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, I’m An Expert.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a> </p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-what-science-says-about-how-to-lose-weight-and-whether-you-really-need-to-122635">Trust Me, I'm An Expert: what science says about how to lose weight and whether you really need to</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<p><strong>Additional audio</strong></p>
<p><em>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks.</a></em></p>
<p><em><a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Podington_Bear/Meet_Podington_Bear_Box_Set_Disc_1/07_Airliner">Airliner</a> by Podington Bear from Free Music Archive.</em></p>
<h2>Images</h2>
<p><em>Shutterstock</em></p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/125813/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
Antibiotic resistant infections already kill about 700,000 people globally every year. While scientists are racing to find new ways to fight superbugs, there's one thing you can do, too.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorPhoebe Roth, Deputy Health EditorLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1261972019-11-01T05:03:57Z2019-11-01T05:03:57ZNearly all your devices run on lithium batteries. Here’s a Nobel Prizewinner on his part in their invention – and their future<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/299825/original/file-20191101-102212-1gop7ni.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=0%2C0%2C5312%2C3498&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">Lithium ion batteries revolutionised the way we use, manufacture and charge our devices. They’re used to power mobile phones, laptops and even electric cars.</span> <span class="attribution"><span class="source">Shutterstock</span></span></figcaption></figure><p>British-born scientist M. Stanley Whittingham, of Binghamton University, was one of three scientists who won the 2019 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for their work developing lithium-ion batteries. </p>
<figure class="align-right zoomable">
<a href="https://images.theconversation.com/files/299782/original/file-20191101-187907-j2lcav.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip"><img alt="" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/299782/original/file-20191101-187907-j2lcav.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=237&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/299782/original/file-20191101-187907-j2lcav.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=361&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/299782/original/file-20191101-187907-j2lcav.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=361&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/299782/original/file-20191101-187907-j2lcav.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=361&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/299782/original/file-20191101-187907-j2lcav.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=453&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/299782/original/file-20191101-187907-j2lcav.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=453&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/299782/original/file-20191101-187907-j2lcav.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=453&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px"></a>
<figcaption>
<span class="caption">L-R: John Goodenough; Stanley Whittingham; Akira Yoshino, the three scientists who won the Nobel Prize for Chemistry this year for their work developing lithium-ion batteries.</span>
<span class="attribution"><span class="source">Niklas Elmehed/Royal Swedish Acad. Sci.</span></span>
</figcaption>
</figure>
<p>Maybe you know exactly what a lithium-ion battery is but even if you don’t, chances are you’re carrying one right now. They’re the batteries used to power mobile phones, laptops and even electric cars. </p>
<p>When it comes to energy storage, they’re vastly more powerful than conventional batteries and you can recharge them many more times.</p>
<p>Their widespread use is driving global demand for the metal lithium – demand that Opposition Leader Anthony Albanese this week <a href="https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/australia-should-be-doing-better-on-lithium-production/video/a9fa783561802882af0f35e491ad38af">said</a> Australia should do more to meet. </p>
<p>The University of Queensland’s Mark Blaskovich, who trained in chemistry and penned <a href="https://theconversation.com/highly-charged-story-chemistry-nobel-goes-to-inventors-of-lithium-ion-batteries-125051">this article</a> about Whittingham’s selection for the chemistry Nobel Prize, sat down with the award-winner this week.</p>
<p>They discussed what the future of battery science may hold and how we might address some of the environmental and fire risks around lithium-ion batteries. </p>
<p>He began by asking M. Stanley Whittingham how lithium batteries differ from conventional, lead-acid batteries, like the kind you might find in your car.</p>
<p><div data-react-class="Tweet" data-react-props="{"tweetId":"1189434842464710656"}"></div></p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/highly-charged-story-chemistry-nobel-goes-to-inventors-of-lithium-ion-batteries-125051">'Highly charged story': chemistry Nobel goes to inventors of lithium-ion batteries</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click <a href="https://pca.st/VTv7">here</a> to listen to Trust Me, I’m An Expert on Pocket Casts).</p>
<p>You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, I’m An Expert.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a> </p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-what-science-says-about-how-to-lose-weight-and-whether-you-really-need-to-122635">Trust Me, I'm An Expert: what science says about how to lose weight and whether you really need to</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<p><strong>Additional credits</strong></p>
<p><em>Recording and production assistance by Thea Blaskovich</em></p>
<p><em>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks.</a></em></p>
<p><em><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgdDPHh_5es">Announcement</a> of the Nobel Prize in Chemistry 2019</em></p>
<h2>Images</h2>
<p><em>Shutterstock</em></p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/126197/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
M. Stanley Whittingham was one of three scientists who won the 2019 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for their work developing lithium-ion batteries – used to power mobile phones, laptops and electric cars.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1244162019-10-06T18:56:05Z2019-10-06T18:56:05ZTrust Me, I’m An Expert: forensic entomology, or what bugs can tell police about when someone died<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/294699/original/file-20190930-185369-1jmihbw.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=7%2C7%2C4980%2C3322&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">Maggots are a major part of the puzzle when it comes to collecting forensic evidence. </span> <span class="attribution"><span class="source">Shutterstock</span></span></figcaption></figure><p>A few episodes ago, we <a href="https://theconversation.com/this-is-going-to-affect-how-we-determine-time-since-death-how-studying-body-donors-in-the-bush-is-changing-forensic-science-117662">heard from forensic scientists</a> at the Australian Facility for Taphonomic Experimental Research (AFTER) – that’s the official name for what, in books and movies, they would call a body farm. It’s there, at a secret bushland site, researchers are making some surprising discoveries about how donated human bodies decompose in Australian conditions.</p>
<p>One of the researchers there is Professor James Wallman, Head of the School of Life Sciences at the University of Technology Sydney, and one of the nation’s few forensic entomologists. </p>
<p>It’s his job to unpack little clues left behind by insects – including the much maligned blowfly – that can help police solve crimes when a body is found.</p>
<p>Today, James Wallman explains how and why insects have a really profound influence on decomposition. </p>
<p>We’re also re-broadcasting a clip from Maiken Ueland, the interim director of the AFTER facility, on how research underway there is changing what we thought we knew about determining time since death.</p>
<p>And if you’re interested in finding out more about how to donate your body for such research, you can start <a href="https://www.uts.edu.au/about/faculty-science/after-facility/body-donation">here</a>.</p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/this-is-going-to-affect-how-we-determine-time-since-death-how-studying-body-donors-in-the-bush-is-changing-forensic-science-117662">'This is going to affect how we determine time since death': how studying body donors in the bush is changing forensic science</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click <a href="https://pca.st/VTv7">here</a> to listen to Trust Me, I’m An Expert on Pocket Casts).</p>
<p>You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, I’m An Expert.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a> </p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-what-science-says-about-how-to-lose-weight-and-whether-you-really-need-to-122635">Trust Me, I'm An Expert: what science says about how to lose weight and whether you really need to</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<p><strong>Additional audio</strong></p>
<p><em>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks.</a></em></p>
<p><em><a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/David_Szesztay/20170730112627760/Backyard_1620">Backyard</a> by David Szesztay from Free Music Archive</em></p>
<h2>Images</h2>
<p><em>Shutterstock</em></p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/124416/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
James Wallman is one of Australia's few forensic entomologists. It’s his job to unpack the tiny clues left behind by insects that can help police solve crimes.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1226352019-09-10T06:49:00Z2019-09-10T06:49:00ZTrust Me, I’m An Expert: what science says about how to lose weight and whether you really need to<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/290483/original/file-20190902-175714-1nkifnt.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=0%2C0%2C5615%2C3724&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">Have you been told by your doctor to consider dropping a few kilos? The good news is that often even a small amount of weight loss can improve your health outlook.</span> <span class="attribution"><a class="source" href="https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/concept-diet-healthy-food-muesli-honey-581654332?src=-1-0">shutterstock</a></span></figcaption></figure><p>Everywhere you turn these days, there’s a diet ad, or family member or friend raving about some new diet that apparently works wonders.</p>
<p>But what does the research actually say about how to lose weight - and if you even need to lose it in the first place?</p>
<p>To find out, The Conversation’s Alexandra Hansen interviewed Clare Collins, a professor in nutrition and dietetics at the University of Newcastle.</p>
<p>Professor Collins, who recently wrote an article titled <a href="https://theconversation.com/the-science-behind-diet-trends-like-mono-charcoal-detox-noom-and-fast800-120080">The science behind diet trends like mono, charcoal detox, Noom and Fast800</a>, also designed a free online course called <a href="https://www.edx.org/course/the-science-of-weight-loss-dispelling-diet-myths-2">The science of weight loss – dispelling diet myths.</a></p>
<p>Alexandra began by asking Clare Collins how a person would know if they needed to change their diet.</p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/the-science-behind-diet-trends-like-mono-charcoal-detox-noom-and-fast800-120080">The science behind diet trends like mono, charcoal detox, Noom and Fast800</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click <a href="https://pca.st/VTv7">here</a> to listen to Trust Me, I’m An Expert on Pocket Casts).</p>
<p>You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, I’m An Expert.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a> </p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/health-check-whats-the-best-diet-for-weight-loss-21557">Health Check: what's the best diet for weight loss?</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<p><strong>Additional reading:</strong></p>
<p><em><a href="https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/guidelines/australian-guide-healthy-eating">The Australian Guide to Healthy Eating</a></em></p>
<p><strong>Credits:</strong></p>
<p><em>Recording and editing by Wes Mountain and Chynthia Wijaya, additional editing by Sunanda Creagh.</em></p>
<p><strong>Additional audio</strong></p>
<p><em>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks.</a></em></p>
<p><em><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifIw3wTeolE">CNN</a> report.</em></p>
<p><em>BBC <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyKXCa9KI0Q">report</a>.</em></p>
<h2>Images</h2>
<p><em>Shutterstock</em></p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/122635/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
A professor in nutrition and dietetics explains.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorAlexandra Hansen, Deputy Editor and Chief of Staff, The Conversation AUNZLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1223862019-08-27T07:58:45Z2019-08-27T07:58:45ZTrust Me, I’m An Expert: Queensland still mystifies too many politicians but its needs are surprisingly simple<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/289534/original/file-20190827-8874-1ezj42g.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=26%2C0%2C5964%2C3988&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">Are southern-born politicians talking about a state they essentially don't understand?</span> <span class="attribution"><span class="source">Shutterstock</span></span></figcaption></figure><p>The dust has well and truly settled on Scott Morrison’s surprise victory in this year’s federal election but opinion is still divided on exactly what happened in Queensland. </p>
<p>Why did Labor perform so poorly in the Sunshine State? Is Queensland an inherently conservative part of Australia? During the campaign, were southern-born politicians talking about a state they essentially didn’t understand? And – #Quexit jokes aside – is it time to redraw state lines in Australia, or even add new states?</p>
<p>Today on <a href="https://theconversation.com/au/podcasts/trust-me-podcast">Trust Me, I’m An Expert</a>, we bring you a discussion organised by The Conversation, recorded at Avid Reader bookshop in Brisbane and broadcast by <a href="https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/bigideas/regionalism,-politics-and-the-queensland-factor/11447502">Big Ideas</a> on the ABC’s RN. </p>
<p>In this chat, political scientist Anne Tiernan from Griffith University speaks with the University of Southern Queensland’s John Cole, who has research expertise in the history of Australian federation, regional development and regional communities.</p>
<p>Host Paul Barclay began by asking them to name the biggest misconceptions floating around about Queensland. </p>
<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click <a href="https://pca.st/VTv7">here</a> to listen to Trust Me, I’m An Expert on Pocket Casts).</p>
<p>You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, I’m An Expert.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a> </p>
<hr>
<p><strong>Credits:</strong></p>
<p><em>Recording and editing by RN’s <a href="https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/bigideas/regionalism,-politics-and-the-queensland-factor/11447502">Big Ideas</a>, additional editing by Sunanda Creagh.</em></p>
<p><strong>Additional audio</strong></p>
<p><em>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks.</a></em></p>
<p><em><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifIw3wTeolE">CNN</a> report.</em></p>
<p><em>BBC <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyKXCa9KI0Q">report</a>.</em></p>
<h2>Images</h2>
<p><em>Shutterstock</em></p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/122386/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
Two Queensland-based experts discuss what so many politicians and pundits get wrong about the Sunshine State – and what its citizens are crying out for.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1220312019-08-22T07:04:54Z2019-08-22T07:04:54ZTrust Me, I’m An Expert: Why the Hong Kong protesters feel they have nothing to lose<p>Last weekend, hundreds of thousands of people again took to the streets in Hong Kong to protest against the government – the <a href="https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3023331/three-nights-tear-gas-free-protests-hong-kongs-anti">11th straight weekend</a> of demonstrations that began in June over a proposed extradition bill.</p>
<p>But after more than two months of increasingly violent clashes between demonstrators and the police, this protest was peaceful. No tear gas was fired.</p>
<p>China expert Graeme Smith, one of the hosts of <a href="https://omny.fm/shows/the-little-red-podcast/playlists/podcast">The Little Red Podcast</a>, devoted <a href="https://omny.fm/shows/the-little-red-podcast/desperate-hong-kong-the-movement-behind-the-mask">this week’s episode to the Hong Kong protest movement</a>, with his co-host, Louisa Lim, on the ground in Hong Kong talking to people about their perseverance in the face of a potentially severe military crackdown from Beijing.</p>
<p>In this episode of Trust Me, Smith discusses where the protests go from here, whether there’s any chance for dialogue between the two sides, and the impact of the increasingly nationalist vitriol aimed at protesters on social media – and on the streets of Hong Kong. </p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/beijing-is-moving-to-stamp-out-the-hong-kong-protests-but-it-may-have-already-lost-the-city-for-good-121815">Beijing is moving to stamp out the Hong Kong protests – but it may have already lost the city for good</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<p>Smith believes the protests aren’t going to stop until Chief Executive Carrie Lam definitively withdraws the contentious extradition bill and launches an inquiry into police violence against the protesters.</p>
<p>And this is unlikely so long as Lam – and her backers in Beijing – continue to stand firm in their positions and refuse to negotiate.</p>
<p>So, no one knows how this might end, Smith says. </p>
<blockquote>
<p>A lot of the protesters, especially those in their 20s, feel they basically have nothing to lose and they’re going to dig in for the long haul.</p>
</blockquote>
<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click <a href="https://pca.st/VTv7">here</a> to listen to Trust Me, I’m An Expert on Pocket Casts).</p>
<p>You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, I’m An Expert.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a> </p>
<hr>
<p><strong>Credits:</strong></p>
<p>Recording and editing by Graeme Smith, Justin Bergman and Sunanda Creagh.</p>
<p><strong>Additional audio</strong></p>
<p><em>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks.</a></em></p>
<p><em><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifIw3wTeolE">CNN</a> report</em></p>
<p><em>BBC <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyKXCa9KI0Q">report</a></em></p>
<p><em><a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-little-red-podcast/id1136685378">The Little Red Podcast</a></em></p>
<h2>Images</h2>
<p>AAP/EPA/VIVEK PRAKASH</p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/122031/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
Hong Kong leader Carrie Lam has indicated she's open to dialogue. But unless she meets the demonstrators' demands, the protest movement isn't going to end anytime soon.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorJustin Bergman, International Affairs EditorLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1176622019-07-01T19:43:07Z2019-07-01T19:43:07Z‘This is going to affect how we determine time since death’: how studying body donors in the bush is changing forensic science<p>On the outskirts of Sydney, in a secret bushland location, lies what’s officially known as the <a href="https://www.uts.edu.au/about/faculty-science/after-facility/about-us">Australian Facility for Taphonomic Experimental Research</a> (AFTER). In books and movies, it’d be called a body farm. </p>
<figure class="align-right zoomable">
<a href="https://images.theconversation.com/files/280632/original/file-20190621-149831-3k0kka.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip"><img alt="" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/280632/original/file-20190621-149831-3k0kka.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=237&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/280632/original/file-20190621-149831-3k0kka.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=900&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/280632/original/file-20190621-149831-3k0kka.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=900&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/280632/original/file-20190621-149831-3k0kka.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=900&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/280632/original/file-20190621-149831-3k0kka.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=1131&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/280632/original/file-20190621-149831-3k0kka.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=1131&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/280632/original/file-20190621-149831-3k0kka.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=1131&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px"></a>
<figcaption>
<span class="caption">Maiken Ueland at the AFTER facility run by UTS.</span>
<span class="attribution"><span class="source">Supplied by UTS</span>, <span class="license">Author provided</span></span>
</figcaption>
</figure>
<p>Taphonomy is the study of how an organism breaks down after death. Research underway at the University of Technology Sydney’s AFTER facility is yielding some surprising new findings about how bodies decompose in the Australian bush.</p>
<p>And here’s an astonishing detail: until AFTER opened in Sydney in 2016, there was no facility like it in the southern hemisphere. Most of the world’s taphonomic research came from the US, meaning we were missing vital clues relating to how Australian weather, bugs and climate conditions affect the way a human body decomposes in the bush.</p>
<p>Today on our podcast, <a href="https://theconversation.com/au/podcasts/trust-me-podcast">Trust Me, I’m An Expert</a>, we take you on a journey to AFTER. The facility’s interim director, Maiken Ueland, and PhD student Samara Garrett-Rickman share with us:</p>
<ul>
<li>some of the unexpected findings emerging from AFTER on determining time since death;</li>
<li>why AFTER researchers prefer not to use the term “body farm”;</li>
<li>how the stages of decomposition work </li>
<li>a process of “mummification” that research suggests may be unique to Australian bushland conditions;</li>
<li>what the TV shows get wrong about forensic science; </li>
<li>why it’s harder to bury a body than most people think; </li>
<li>what investigators look for to spot a clandestine grave;</li>
</ul>
<p>And if you’re interested in finding out more about how to donate your body for such research, you can start <a href="https://www.uts.edu.au/about/faculty-science/after-facility/body-donation">here</a>. </p>
<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click <a href="https://pca.st/VTv7">here</a> to listen to Trust Me, I’m An Expert on Pocket Casts).</p>
<p>You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, I’m An Expert.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a> </p>
<hr>
<h2>Additional audio</h2>
<p>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks.</a></p>
<p>Backyard by <a href="http://freemusicarchive.org/music/David_Szesztay/20170730112627760/Backyard_1620">David Szesztay</a> from Free Music Archive</p>
<h2>Images</h2>
<p>UTS/Anna Zhu</p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/117662/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
On the outskirts of Sydney, in a secret bushland location, lies what's officially known as the Australian Facility for Taphonomic Experimental Research. In books or movies, it'd be called a body farm.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1188262019-06-14T04:24:37Z2019-06-14T04:24:37Z‘People felt totally trapped’: what it’s like to be a pensioner renting privately as Australia’s housing costs soar<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/279474/original/file-20190614-158949-1lh4ybt.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=0%2C15%2C5152%2C3515&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">Older private renters are far more likely to experience loneliness than their counterparts in social housing and that loneliness can be acute.</span> <span class="attribution"><span class="source">Shutterstock</span></span></figcaption></figure><p>A growing number of older Australians don’t own their homes. And whether they are private renters or live in social housing can make a big difference to their risk of loneliness and anxiety.</p>
<p>That’s the key finding of research led by Alan Morris, a professor at the UTS Institute for Public Policy and Governance, who interviewed older Australians about how their housing situation may relate to the loneliness they experience. </p>
<p>On today’s episode, Professor Morris shares some of the deeply moving stories he heard.</p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/i-really-have-thought-this-cant-go-on-loneliness-looms-for-rising-numbers-of-older-private-renters-118046">'I really have thought this can’t go on': loneliness looms for rising numbers of older private renters</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click <a href="https://pca.st/VTv7">here</a> to listen to Trust Me, I’m An Expert on Pocket Casts).</p>
<p>You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, I’m An Expert.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a> </p>
<hr>
<h2>Additional audio</h2>
<p>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks.</a></p>
<h2>Image</h2>
<p>Shutterstock</p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/118826/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
On today's episode, Alan Morris shares some of the deeply moving stories he heard when he set out to interview older Australians in private rental accommodation and social housing about loneliness.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1170452019-05-14T12:38:48Z2019-05-14T12:38:48ZWhat young Indians want: India Tomorrow part 6 podcast transcript<p><em>This is a transcript of part six of The Anthill podcast series, India Tomorrow. <a href="https://theconversation.com/india-tomorrow-part-6-what-young-indians-want-117024">Click here to listen to the full episode</a> and also find out more about past and upcoming episodes in our <a href="https://theconversation.com/india-tomorrow-a-podcast-series-from-the-anthill-episode-guide-114654">series episode guide</a>.</em></p>
<hr>
<iframe src="https://player.acast.com/5e3bf1111a6e452f6380a7bc/episodes/5e3bf133659d595770f8b90d?theme=default&cover=1&latest=1" frameborder="0" width="100%" height="110px" allow="autoplay"></iframe>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-anthill/id1114423002?mt=2"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/321534/original/file-20200319-22606-q84y3k.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=182&fit=crop&dpr=1" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/265Bnp4BgwaEmFv2QciIOC?si=-WMr1ecDTsO_6avrkxZu8g"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/321535/original/file-20200319-22606-1l4copl.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=183&fit=crop&dpr=1" width="268" height="70"></a> </p>
<hr>
<p><strong><a href="https://theconversation.com/profiles/craig-jeffrey-114246">Craig Jeffrey</a>:</strong> One in eight people in the world is an Indian under the age of 30. It’s worth repeating that. One in eight people in the world is an Indian young person. Someone under the age of 30. Now that’s an extraordinary statistic. And it gives a sense of the importance of that demographic for the future of Asia and of the world. </p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> This is Craig Jeffrey, director of the Australia India Institute and a professor of geography at the University of Melbourne. He’s done decades of research on young Indians and social change. </p>
<p><strong>Craig Jeffrey:</strong> Now, unlike the same generation 25 years ago, that set of young people are very well aware of events in other parts of the world, which are streamed to them via their mobile phones or on the internet. They are increasingly in secondary school, including young women. And in school they’re learning to obviously dream big. And the government is also encouraging those young people to see themselves as part of a new India, that’s modern, in which people are based often in urban areas doing kind of what historically has been described as middle class work, service work.</p>
<p>And where you’ve got that situation of both demographic growth and a rapid revolution of rising aspirations, you need an outlet for young people so that they feel, as they move into their 20s and 30s, that they’re achieving the goals that they desire. And that’s not happening. </p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> From The Conversation’s Anthill podcast, this is India Tomorrow. I’m Annabel Bligh from The Conversation. And I’m joined by my co-host, Indrajit Roy, lecturer in politics from the University of York. Hi Indrajit. </p>
<p><strong>Indrajit Roy:</strong> Hello Annabel. </p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> In this, the sixth part of our podcast series India Tomorrow, we’re going to be focusing on young Indians, the concerns they face as they go about their lives and the key issues they’re likely to be thinking about as they head to the polls in 2019. We’ll also be hearing about their views on caste and marriage – and about their aspirations for the future. </p>
<p>For this episode, we’ve teamed up with our colleagues at <a href="https://theconversation.com/india-election-2019-millions-of-indian-youth-are-underemployed-and-going-to-the-polls-113563">Trust Me I’m An Expert</a>, a podcast from The Conversation Australia. It was Bageshri Savyasachi, a multimedia intern at The Conversation, who spoke to Craig Jeffrey about his research. You can actually hear a longer version of their conversation on the Trust Me I’m an Expert podcast, available wherever you get your podcasts from. </p>
<p>So, there will be an estimated 84m first time voters going to the polls in 2019. Here’s Bageshri. </p>
<p><strong>Bageshri Savyasachi:</strong> What do you think India’s young voters want? What are the overarching political imperatives and demands of India’s huge generation Z? </p>
<p><strong>Craig Jeffrey:</strong> I think it’s a great question. Those numbers are astonishing aren’t they? And it’s very difficult I think for pundits to predict what precisely they’ll do in terms of the elections. </p>
<p><strong>Indrajit Roy:</strong> Craig says there are three things which are crucial in the minds of these voters. </p>
<p><strong>Craig Jeffrey:</strong> One is jobs. So young people across India and particularly in parts of India where the economy’s been less successful at creating jobs. So some of the northern states, for example, are going to be really concerned with the capacity of the government to provide better employment opportunities.</p>
<p><strong>Indrajit Roy:</strong> The second is education. </p>
<p><strong>Craig Jeffrey:</strong> They’ll be looking to see which political parties and politicians are promising to improve higher education, tertiary education more generally, the skills environment, and school education. Because for a lot of young people who aren’t part of the elite in India there is a mismatch often between the educational opportunities they obtain in school or university and then the employment market and the demands of key private sector firms. </p>
<p>A third area that’s perhaps less obvious is the issue of healthcare and public health. And my own observations as an anthropologist and human geographer working in mainly Uttar Pradesh and Uttarakhand over the past 25 years on social change is that young people are often demanding access to health services that are poorly provisioned in provincial India, particularly in relation to issues like sexual health, mental health, reproductive health. And that’s an area where I think young people are looking to government for more action. And I think that will also be in young people’s minds in the lead up to the elections. </p>
<p><strong>Indrajit Roy:</strong> As we heard about <a href="https://theconversation.com/india-tomorrow-part-5-economic-growth-inequality-and-jobs-116678">in the last episode of this series</a>, jobs and unemployment are a key election issue. And particularly so for young people. In rural India, 17% of men and 14% of women under 30 are looking for jobs. And, in urban India it’s 19% for men and 27% for women, according to data leaked <a href="https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-47068223">from the official statistics office</a>. And there is also a big problem of underemployment, where young people are doing jobs for which they’re overqualified. </p>
<p><strong>Bageshri Savyasachi:</strong> What jobs are available to young people? And do they want to do those jobs?</p>
<p><strong>Craig Jeffrey:</strong> Well I think one of the stories of Indian economic growth since 1990 is its failure to create large numbers of what might be regarded as white collar, or middle class jobs for the increasing numbers of young people who are getting high school matriculation certificates or degrees in India. Now India’s not especially unusual in that regard, particularly since the global financial crisis in the late 2000s economies around the world often found it difficult to create secure employment opportunities for people. Of course automation, mechanisation is changing the nature of work throughout the world. So this isn’t specific to India. But India is a almost, a very condensed or intense example of the failure of economic growth to create lots of good quality jobs. That long predates 2014 and the coming to power of the BJP. It’s a structural feature of the Indian economy since 1990 and especially since the mid-2000s period. </p>
<p><strong>Indrajit Roy:</strong> But what does this mean for the jobs that are available for young people? </p>
<p><strong>Craig Jeffrey:</strong> In many cases what we’re seeing in India is that people are having to realign their expectations of what work they’re going to do in that five or ten year period after they graduate from high school or university. This is not new. Ronald Dore wrote in his book <a href="https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED153584">The Diploma Disease</a> in 1970 that India was the country of the BA bus conductor. So that sense of having to downplay your expectations in light of circumstances is quite old in India. But now I would argue that a lot of people with bachelor’s degrees in India would be very keen to have a job on a state roadway as a bus conductor, so intense and cutthroat has the employment market become.</p>
<p>So you’re seeing people with master’s degrees, with PhDs having to do very small scale, entrepreneurial business work. You’re seeing them especially having to go back into agriculture, not as large scale agricultural innovators making large amounts of money and employing other people, but rather working on quite small plots of land in an environment where they didn’t imagine that they would go back into farming.</p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> So young Indians in their 20s and 30s are struggling to achieve the goals they’ve set themselves. But just how big a problem is that for the country? </p>
<p><strong>Craig Jeffrey:</strong> Well obviously for the young people concerned it’s a big problem and for their families. And young people are not passive in that situation. They actively and creatively seek ways to make do. That may be entering into fallback work in agriculture. It may be finding jobs that perhaps that they weren’t aspiring to originally, but which provide a means for establishing a family and getting by, in areas like sales and marketing.</p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> But, Craig says, it also means there is a lot of disappointment among young people who are living their lives in limbo – something he wrote about back in 2010 in a book called <a href="https://www.sup.org/books/title/?id=17650">Timepass</a>.</p>
<p><strong>Craig Jeffrey:</strong> What’s surprising perhaps is that that sense of social suffering hasn’t led to more unrest in India. And I think there are several reasons for that. I think partly because India is a democracy, people have an outlet for frustration, through the political system, through voting, through demonstrating on the streets. I think the second reason why there haven’t been more political mobilisation is that people often perceive this as a personal failure rather than a failure of government or of society, or as a structural failure, as social scientists would put. They see it as, “well I didn’t try hard enough” or “I wasn’t successful enough in that examination”. </p>
<p><strong>Indrajit Roy:</strong> He says that quite often this failure is personalised, people blame themselves rather than the structural problems with India’s economy or its institutions. </p>
<p><strong>Craig Jeffrey:</strong> There’s a whole history of commentators on India talking about the country as being poised to sort of fall into unrest. I’m not going to do that. I think India, it holds together. And as I said people, young people are actively finding ways to make do. But I do think it’s a major social issue at the moment – the lack of capacity for young people to realise their aspirations. It should be and will remain an absolutely critical issue for government in India.</p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> So what do young Indians, going through college, want their future to look like?</p>
<p><strong><a href="https://theconversation.com/profiles/sneha-krishnan-431019">Sneha Krishnan</a>:</strong> By and large what they want to do is find a way to live a life that feels to them, I would say “dignified”. And I think how they would put it is “sophisticated”.</p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> This is Sneha Krishnan, an associate professor in geography at the University of Oxford. You may remember her from <a href="https://theconversation.com/india-tomorrow-part-4-women-gender-and-love-116115">part four of this series on women</a>, where we heard about the fascinating research she’s done with young Indian women, many of whom live in student hostels or dorms under strict curfews. </p>
<p><strong>Indrajit Roy:</strong> Sneha’s research is ethnographic, meaning her work focuses on particular examples or case studies. She pointed to one from her research that illustrated young people mean by a sophisticated life. </p>
<p><strong>Sneha Krishnan:</strong> So there was one young woman who emphatically told me she didn’t want a job. Right. She was going to college. She was studying something like computer programming which you know is applicable across a range of industries and so on. So she could easily find herself some kind of job in the future. </p>
<p><strong>Indrajit Roy:</strong> But, Sneha says this young woman didn’t really want to work. </p>
<p><strong>Sneha Krishnan:</strong> She had a boyfriend who had really wanted to study art and she threw a fit. And so he ended up in an engineering college because she was really upset at the idea that she might end up with a poor artist. And she did not fancy herself living like that. Right. So she was very emphatic that what she wanted was a husband with a well-paying job. She wanted them to be able to own a three bedroom house that she and her husband would have a room, the children they had would have a room and there would be a third room in which her parents or his parents could stay when they came to visit. And the reason she had this idea was that she had grown up herself in a one bedroom house and had shared a bedroom with her parents her whole life. And any visiting relatives ended up in the same room.</p>
<p><strong>Indrajit Roy:</strong> She didn’t want that to be her future. She wanted something different. </p>
<p><strong>Sneha Krishnan:</strong> So sophistication is a word that I think meant different things to different people. But, by and large, I think what it referred to was being able to live a life where they felt kind of able to make their own choices. Whether it was choices like not working and having a highly paid engineer for a husband. </p>
<p><strong>Indrajit Roy:</strong> I also asked Sneha whether she felt young people in India were actually becoming more liberal in their views – by which I meant more progressive rather than more economically liberal.</p>
<p><strong>Sneha Krishnan:</strong> So I want to cautiously say that maybe young people are getting, as you said in the English language colloquial sense of it, more liberal. And the reason I say that is because when I left field work when I initially did it in 2013, right, before the elections happened, I was seriously disappointed during that time and I wasn’t surprised at all with the BJP victory.</p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> Sneha points to the national debates going on at the time about rape, which took place after the high-profile gang rape and fatal assault of a 23-year-old woman, Jyoti Singh in Delhi in 2012. This helped foster a conservative narrative which emphasised the need to protect women.</p>
<p><strong>Sneha Krishnan:</strong> A lot of upper caste, middle class young women seemed to subscribe to that sort of view and it left me feeling sort of quite negative at that point.</p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> While Sneha says she hasn’t done any more direct fieldwork since then, she believes there has been a shift in thinking.</p>
<p><strong>Sneha Krishnan:</strong> From the sort of smaller interactions I’ve had, that doesn’t seem to be the case this time. In that there are a lot of reasons for young people to be very disappointed with this government. One of them was demonetisation. What a fiasco.</p>
<p><strong>Indrajit Roy:</strong> We heard about Modi’s demonetisation policy <a href="https://theconversation.com/india-tomorrow-part-5-economic-growth-inequality-and-jobs-116678">in our last episode</a>, in which the 500 and 1,000 rupee notes were scrapped overnight in an effort to combat corruption. Sneha says it was really inconvenient for young people. </p>
<p><strong>Sneha Krishnan:</strong> A lot of young people are incredibly busy people trying to sort of make careers in a bad economy. And they just don’t have the kind of time that that moment required for them to stand in queues and still not get the money they needed. To be running around and helping you know elderly relatives stand in queues and still not get the money they needed.</p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> She says that the growing number of attacks in India on ex-untouchables or Dalits, and Muslims in recent years, which we heard about earlier in this series, hasn’t created a backlash against far-right Hindu nationalism. But it has given some young people pause for thought. </p>
<p><strong>Sneha Krishnan:</strong> I do think that the sort of enormous scale at which that’s happened in the last few years has kind of gotten through to people, in that I am sensing a certain sort of exhaustion with the way things are. And you know, again, urban middle class young people really like their personal rights. Right? And there’s a lot of talk about, you know, if I can’t marry a Muslim without people hounding me. If I can’t make out with the Dalit boy on the beach without someone hounding me. Do you know what I’m saying? So I think there’s a lot of anxiety that their rights to a certain sort of global lifestyle where they make choices, which are unfettered, is somehow under threat.</p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> Bageshri also asked Craig Jeffrey for his thoughts on this issue. </p>
<p><strong>Bageshri Savyasachi:</strong> Do you think there is a growing shift towards illiberalism among India’s youth?</p>
<p><strong>Craig Jeffrey:</strong> I think that’s a really interesting question. First one has to think about well what is liberalism. And if we define that relatively narrowly in terms of a commitment to formal equality and individual freedoms, then I think there’s evidence both ways. There’s evidence of young people contesting those visions of formal equality and individual freedom. For example through their views on on areas like sexuality. So there was a recent <a href="https://www.huffingtonpost.in/2017/04/04/young-india-is-conservative-opposed-to-homosexuality-likes-to_a_22025362/?guccounter=1">Centre of the Study of Developing Societies survey</a> that showed that the majority of young Indians didn’t approve of homosexuality. So there’s some evidence there of a certain kind of inverted commas “illiberalism”. </p>
<p>There’s evidence of young people’s involvement in societies or organisations that are policing people’s right to eat certain foods – again which would suggest the rise of a certain form of illiberalism. But there’s also of course a great deal of evidence the other way that young people are very active in nongovernmental organisations that are seeking to protect people’s formal equality, protect people’s freedoms. The number of youth NGOs in India is growing very very quickly.</p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> Craig says there is also an interesting debate going on about the relationship between the individual and liberalism in India. </p>
<p><strong>Craig Jeffrey:</strong> An argument that’s mean made by several people is that actually liberalism in India is organised around a sense of group rights, rather than around individual rights. So it’s perfectly possible to be part of a caste organisation or religious organisation that’s about equality and freedom, but nevertheless is articulating those notions of equality and freedom through reference to caste and religion. So that would be an argument that I think lots of Hindu nationalists would make, is that even though Hindus are the majority and even though they’re making an argument in Hindu terms, it’s an argument about tolerance and about liberalism, rather than about violence or exclusion or limiting people’s freedoms.</p>
<p><strong>Indrajit Roy:</strong> We asked Suryakant Waghmore, associate professor at the Indian Institute of Technology Bombay, to help explain more about the caste organisations that Craig mentions here. You may remember Suryakant from our <a href="https://theconversation.com/india-tomorrow-part-2-the-politics-of-hindu-nationalism-115494">second episode on Hindu nationalism</a>. His research looks at the way different types of caste associations work in different cities, particularly Mumbai and Ahmedabad. Suryakant explains why caste associations for so-called higher castes began. </p>
<p><strong><a href="https://theconversation.com/profiles/suryakant-waghmore-719872">Suryakant Waghmore</a>:</strong> The caste associations of the pure and privileged groups, you know, when most of these came up during the colonial rule, with cities becoming important hub of economy, of society, of politics. And these castes associations kind of negotiated this urban space for several of these rural inhabitants from the privileged caste to come to city and negotiate urbanism; especially gain education and you know become mobile so that they could kind of mimic the Western way of life. But, this was rooted in caste.</p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> Today, Suryakant says, associations for higher castes, such as those for Brahmins, remain important, but for different reasons.</p>
<p><strong>Suryakant Waghmore:</strong> In fact quite a few of these castes associations are also finding it difficult to attract youth in these associations. And most of the volunteers who kind of work in these associations are about 50 and are trying to attract the youth to kind of root them again in caste as their primary identity. </p>
<p><strong>Indrajit Roy:</strong> He tells us they have an anxiety of people “losing their caste”. And in cities like Mumbai, which are large, cosmopolitan, urban environments, these associations are trying to turn caste into community. </p>
<p><strong>Suryakant Waghmore:</strong> And the most important fear for these castes associations and these volunteers is that the female members of the caste marrying outside the caste or falling in love outside the caste.</p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> Only around 7% or 8% of marriages are considered inter-caste marriages, according to Suryakant. In another research project on inter-caste marriage, he studied 2,000 profiles on marriage dating websites to look in more detail at how ideas of caste and marriage interact. </p>
<p><strong>Suryakant Waghmore:</strong> So what a typical profile, you know, would have your caste. Then your income, then your skin colour and then your preference about the person who you’re going to marry. </p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> By that he means stating your caste preference. In the past, he says some of these dating profiles would state that caste was no issue, except for two important exceptions: the ex-untouchables or Dalits, and people from scheduled tribes, known as Adivasis. Now, Suryakant has found, some people say caste doesn’t matter at all. </p>
<p><strong>Suryakant Waghmore:</strong> Now, what is interesting is that, when they say caste does not matter, it’s just a way of saying that they would not necessarily marry outside caste. But there are some who really mean caste does not matter. What they do is that they list out castes they would be open to marry into.</p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> Suryakant looked at who was listing what. </p>
<p><strong>Suryakant Waghmore:</strong> Now what we saw in this preference was that, that the middle castes want to marry in the middle range and upwards. The upper castes would want to marry upper range and a little to the middle order.</p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> So even if the ex-untouchables are not specifically mentioned or barred, Suryakant says there is still an unwritten inclination to avoid them. </p>
<p><strong>Suryakant Waghmore:</strong> Whoever is kind of trying to move beyond caste, even then there is this line of purity and pollution and those castes that are considered kind of permanently polluted, that would be the ex-untouchable caste, are not really preferred to be married. </p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> But he stresses that this also depends on which cities people live in. </p>
<p><strong>Suryakant Waghmore:</strong> Quite a few youngsters tend to think beyond caste, you know, especially in Mumbai. This is not the case in Ahmedabad, you know, there is a general kind of belief that one can not marry the ex-untouchable castes and so forth. But in Mumbai what we see is that there’s definitely adventure in the space of friendship and love. So people transgress these boundaries and do not necessary think so much about the caste. In Ahmedabad, also, it’s there too at some extent, but it is lesser.</p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> So Indrajit, I found this idea of a post-caste society really interesting, especially in light of everything we’ve been talking about on this series. It seems that some parts of Indian society may feel threatened by a future in which caste no longer mattered, whereas others think it’s a long overdue idea? </p>
<p><strong>Indrajit Roy:</strong> That’s quite right. I think people who have been privileged by the caste hierarchy would obviously see its disappearance as a threat. But for those who’ve been oppressed under the caste system, or those who’ve found themselves being marginalised or stigmatised by it, would certainly want caste to disappear. </p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> So is this particularly pertinent with Modi being up for re-election? </p>
<p><strong>Indrajit Roy:</strong> Oh I think so. Remember a number of the people who voted for Modi actually wanted him in power because they thought he would preserve Hinduism, preserve the caste hierarchies that came with it. Others saw him as – because he was a low-caste person himself, or at least he claimed to be from one of the lower castes – they thought him being at the top position of the country would actually challenge the caste hierarchy and contribute to its dissolution. So in a way you have both groups, those who believe that caste should not matter any more, as well as those who believe that caste is disappearing too fast and it should be preserved. Both groups have ironically vested a lot in Modi and his up for re-election actually shows the contests between these two groups. </p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> So whatever future they want for themselves, it’s clear that young Indians are a political force to be reckoned with. And Indian students have found themselves at the forefront of national politics in recent years, with a couple of high profile controversies over the way some student protesters have been treated. </p>
<p><strong>Indrajit Roy:</strong> The Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad, or ABVP, a student youth organisation associated with the Hindu nationalist RSS that we heard about in <a href="https://theconversation.com/india-tomorrow-part-2-the-politics-of-hindu-nationalism-115494">episode two</a>, has become an ever more powerful political force on some campuses. But all of India’s political parties have strong youth wings, which are key to their electoral efforts. </p>
<p>Back in 2014, Modi’s BJP was successful at winning the support of young people. According to the National Elections Survey – that’s a survey done with people as soon as they’ve left the booth, after casting their vote – 44% of upper-class 18 to 22-year-old first time voters preferred the BJP. This compared to 40% of middle-class voters from the same age group, 35% for lower-class voters and 24% for the poor. But the support varied widely by state – from 65% in Madhyar Pradesh, to 32% in Maharasthra. Bageshri asked Craig Jeffrey whether this is still the case going into 2019. </p>
<p><strong>Bageshri Savyasachi:</strong> Is young people support for Modi on the wane? My impression based on the conversations I have with my friends and what I read is that Modi doesn’t have a lot of support among the youth. A lot of young people supported him when he was first running for prime minister, but now a lot of young people are feeling disappointed with how he has handled Hindu nationalists and violence. What do you think?</p>
<p><strong>Craig Jeffrey:</strong> I should do that classic academic thing of saying that I’m not an expert on contemporary views of young people in India. Where I’ve done …</p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> Craig explains that it’s been some time since he did the bulk of his research, and most recently it’s been focused on a village in a remote part of Uttarakhand in northern India. </p>
<p><strong>Craig Jeffrey:</strong> … I try to pick up on the streets a sense of the mood but in that regard I’m an armchair or amateur interpreter of young people’s political views at the moment. And with those caveats in mind, my sense is that young people may not support Modi as much as they did five years ago, but that doesn’t mean that they won’t vote for him.</p>
<p>So one needs to maybe distinguish between support and how people will actually behave in the ballot booth. I think lots of people that I speak to recognise that given the high pitch to which Modi raised people’s aspirations in 2014 there was always going to be a sense of disappointment. That skilling hundreds of millions of people quickly was going to be a very tough ask and that the vision of new India while attractive in certain respects is not borne out in social reality for those outside of the elite and particularly in provincial parts of India, in small town and rural India. So people see on the social and economic side a kind of mismatch between promise and actuality. And I think that’s undermined a certain enthusiasm for the ruling BJP government.</p>
<p><strong>Indrajit Roy:</strong> There are only a few more weeks now to find out what does happen. The final round of voting in the 2019 elections is on May the 19th, with the results announced a few days later on the 23rd. We’ll be taking a pause in this series until then, when we’ll be back with a panel discussing the election results, and answering any questions you might have. </p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> Until then, thanks very much to everyone who’s been in touch so far about our series. And do keep those questions coming. You can get in touch via email on podcast@theconversation.com or on twitter @anthillpod.</p>
<p>You can read more of The Conversation’s coverage of India <a href="https://theconversation.com/uk/topics/indian-elections-2019-68064">by academics around the world on theconversation.com</a> or follow us on social media. And you can also find a transcript of this episode, and other episodes in this series, on The Conversation.com. </p>
<p>Don’t forget you can hear a longer version of Bageshri’s interview with Craig Jeffrey on the <a href="https://theconversation.com/india-election-2019-millions-of-indian-youth-are-underemployed-and-going-to-the-polls-113563">Trust Me I’m An Expert</a> podcast from The Conversation Australia. Find a link to it in our show notes too. </p>
<p>And if you’re looking for some other podcasts to listen to in the meantime, check out Pasha from our colleagues at The Conversation Africa. Pasha means ‘to inform’ in Swahili and each week features a short interview with an academic expert. Recent episodes have focused on the health impacts of cyclone Idai in southern Africa, and the social stigma facing women in Ghana who don’t have children. Search for Pasha from The Conversation Africa wherever you get your podcasts. </p>
<p>A big thanks to all the academics who spoke to us for this episode and to the journalism department at City University for letting us use their studios. The Anthill is produced by Gemma Ware and me, Annabel Bligh. Sound by Alex Portfelix. And an extra big thanks to my co-host Indrajit Roy. </p>
<p><strong>Indrajit Roy:</strong> Thanks Annabel. See you soon. </p>
<p><strong>Annabel Bligh:</strong> Thanks for listening. Goodbye!</p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/117045/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
This is a transcript of part 6 of India Tomorrow, focusing on India’s huge population of young people.Annabel Bligh, Business & Economy Editor and Podcast Producer, The Conversation UKGemma Ware, Head of AudioLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1165202019-05-03T06:40:18Z2019-05-03T06:40:18ZNimbin before and after: local voices on how the 1973 Aquarius Festival changed a town forever<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/272435/original/file-20190503-103063-19oliis.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=0%2C0%2C9162%2C6153&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">A scene at the Aquarius Festival, Nimbin, 1973. </span> <span class="attribution"><span class="source">Flickr/Harry Watson Smith, CC BY-SA</span>, <a class="license" href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/">CC BY-SA</a></span></figcaption></figure><p><em>Today, Trust Me, I’m An Expert brings you a special episode carried across from another Conversation podcast, Essays On Air.</em></p>
<p>In the north-east corner of Australia’s most populous state of New South Wales is a small former dairying and banana farming community. Today, however, that village is unrecognisable.</p>
<p>Nimbin is now widely acknowledged as Australia’s counter-cultural capital, a sister city to both Woodstock in New York State and Freetown Christiania in Denmark.</p>
<p>Among Nimbin’s tourist attractions today are its Hemp Embassy and the annual Mardi Grass festival in early May, which argues for the legislation of marijuana for personal and medicinal use. </p>
<p>The village’s transformation from a rural farming community to its present form can be traced to 1973, when Nimbin became the unlikely host of the Aquarius Festival – a counter-culture arts and music gathering presented by the radical Australian Union of Students.</p>
<figure class="align-center zoomable">
<a href="https://images.theconversation.com/files/271412/original/file-20190429-194623-12ne656.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip"><img alt="" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/271412/original/file-20190429-194623-12ne656.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/271412/original/file-20190429-194623-12ne656.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=403&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/271412/original/file-20190429-194623-12ne656.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=403&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/271412/original/file-20190429-194623-12ne656.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=403&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/271412/original/file-20190429-194623-12ne656.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=507&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/271412/original/file-20190429-194623-12ne656.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=507&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/271412/original/file-20190429-194623-12ne656.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=507&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px"></a>
<figcaption>
<span class="caption">A scene from the Aquarius Festival in Nimbin, 1973.</span>
<span class="attribution"><a class="source" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/harryws/4509795046/in/album-72157623828646000/">Flickr/harryws20/Harry Watson Smith</a>, <a class="license" href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/">CC BY</a></span>
</figcaption>
</figure>
<h2>Why is Nimbin the way it is?</h2>
<p>These social and political origins of the commodified hippie culture on display today in Nimbin have become less apparent to visitors and more recent migrants to the region. </p>
<p>Visitors, especially those arriving on bus tours, tend to shop, buy coffee and leave again. To counter this, the Nimbin Tourism Office commissioned me in 2016 to produce an app-based <a href="http://soundtrails.com.au/nimbin-soundtrail-2/">audio walk</a> to promote a deeper engagement for tourists with the town and help answer the question: why is Nimbin the way it is? </p>
<p>Here’s a snippet:</p>
<p><audio preload="metadata" controls="controls" data-duration="64" data-image="" data-title="Local voices on how the 1973 Aquarius Festival changed Nimbin forever" data-size="2563028" data-source="Jeanti St Clair" data-source-url="" data-license="CC BY" data-license-url="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/">
<source src="https://cdn.theconversation.com/audio/1568/final-snippet-01.mp3" type="audio/mpeg">
</audio>
<div class="audio-player-caption">
Local voices on how the 1973 Aquarius Festival changed Nimbin forever.
<span class="attribution"><span class="source">Jeanti St Clair</span>, <a class="license" href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/">CC BY</a><span class="download"><span>2.44 MB</span> <a target="_blank" href="https://cdn.theconversation.com/audio/1568/final-snippet-01.mp3">(download)</a></span></span>
</div></p>
<p>The audio walk, an adapted version of which features on today’s episode of Essays On Air, was published onto the GPS-enabled mobile phone app <a href="http://soundtrails.com.au/nimbin-soundtrail-2/">Soundtrails</a>. Soundtrails is owned by <a href="http://www.thestoryproject.org.au/">The Story Project</a>, an Australian organisation focusing on oral history-based audio walks and they’ve published more than a <a href="http://soundtrails.com.au/explore/">dozen such walks in regional Australia</a>. </p>
<figure class="align-center zoomable">
<a href="https://images.theconversation.com/files/271413/original/file-20190429-194620-7m4bqg.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip"><img alt="" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/271413/original/file-20190429-194620-7m4bqg.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/271413/original/file-20190429-194620-7m4bqg.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=412&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/271413/original/file-20190429-194620-7m4bqg.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=412&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/271413/original/file-20190429-194620-7m4bqg.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=412&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/271413/original/file-20190429-194620-7m4bqg.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=517&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/271413/original/file-20190429-194620-7m4bqg.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=517&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/271413/original/file-20190429-194620-7m4bqg.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=517&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px"></a>
<figcaption>
<span class="caption">A scene from the Aquarius Festival in Nimbin, 1973.</span>
<span class="attribution"><a class="source" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/harryws/4509202611/in/album-72157623828646000/">Flickr/Harry Watson Smith/harryws20</a>, <a class="license" href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/">CC BY</a></span>
</figcaption>
</figure>
<p>Anyone with a smartphone can access it by downloading the app and the Nimbin audio walk and following the route through the village’s streets and parklands. Headphones provide the best experience. </p>
<p>The stories I share with you today are excerpts from the Nimbin Soundtrail and are drawn from consultations and interviews with more than 60 Nimbin residents, Aquarius Festival participants and Indigenous elders. </p>
<p>Here, I’ve tried to reconnect the past and the present to make clear how Nimbin became the counter-cultural capital that it is. And the caveat is that many of the events in this documentary walk happened more than 40 years ago. I’ve recognised that memories have merged with other retellings that evolved over the years and the definitive truth is perhaps unavailable. Any version of Nimbin’s counter-culture will be an incomplete history.</p>
<p>The nine months it took me to gather these stories and make some sense of how they fitted together were rewarding.</p>
<p>And while there are some who might dispute the accounts of what happened in these stories, others agree that it’s a fair record of Nimbin contemporary history. The full Nimbin soundtrack can be heard by downloading the <a href="http://soundtrails.com.au/">Soundtrails</a> app and listening <a href="http://soundtrails.com.au/explore/">here</a>. And if you are ever in the area, I invite you to take a day out, visit and listen to the stories in town. </p>
<figure class="align-center zoomable">
<a href="https://images.theconversation.com/files/271383/original/file-20190429-194616-xhtyri.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip"><img alt="" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/271383/original/file-20190429-194616-xhtyri.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/271383/original/file-20190429-194616-xhtyri.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=409&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/271383/original/file-20190429-194616-xhtyri.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=409&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/271383/original/file-20190429-194616-xhtyri.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=409&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/271383/original/file-20190429-194616-xhtyri.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=514&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/271383/original/file-20190429-194616-xhtyri.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=514&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/271383/original/file-20190429-194616-xhtyri.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=514&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px"></a>
<figcaption>
<span class="caption">A crowd at the Nimbin Hotel during the Aquarius Festival, Nimbin, 1973.</span>
<span class="attribution"><a class="source" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/harryws/4509270669/in/album-72157623828646000/">Flickr/Harry Watson Smith</a>, <a class="license" href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/">CC BY</a></span>
</figcaption>
</figure>
<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click <a href="https://pca.st/podcast/cf03b340-d8c9-0135-9e60-5bb073f92b78">here</a> to listen to Essays On Air on Pocket Casts).</p>
<p>You can also hear us on <a href="https://player.fm/series/essays-on-air">PlayerFM</a> or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Essays On Air.</p>
<p><a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/essays-on-air/id1333743838"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL0Vzc2F5cy1Pbi1BaXIucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
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<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/essays-on-air-WlwNB4"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> </p>
<hr>
<h2>Additional audio</h2>
<p>Recording and editing by Jeanti St Clair from Southern Cross University.</p>
<p>This podcast contains excerpts from the Nimbin Soundtrail, used with grateful permission from <a href="http://www.thestoryproject.org.au/">The Story Project</a>/<a href="http://soundtrails.com.au/nimbin-soundtrail-2/">Soundtrails</a>. See the <a href="http://soundtrails.com.au/nimbin-soundtrail-2/">app</a> for the walk’s full credit list.</p>
<p>Selections of original music from the <a href="http://soundtrails.com.au/nimbin-soundtrail-2/">Nimbin Soundtrail by Neil Pike</a>.</p>
<p>Excerpt from <a href="https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Various_Artists_-_Artifacts_Vol_1/Necroscopix_Vol_1_1970-1981/">Deke Naptar’s Culture</a>, Culture from Necroscopix (1970-1981), Free Music Archive </p>
<p>Fair Use Excerpts:
Nimbin Mardi Grass 2018 parade
ABC, Vietnam Lottery, 1965
Pathé Australians Against War 1966
ABC, This Day Tonight, anti-Vietnam War Moratoriam, 1970
Gough Whitlam policy <a href="http://whitlamdismissal.com/1972/11/13/whitlam-%201972-election-policy-speech.html">speech</a>, 1972
<a href="http://whitlamdismissal.com/1972/11/13/its-time-%20audio-video-lyrics.html">It’s Time</a>, ALP campaign song, 1972</p>
<p>Snow by <a href="http://freemusicarchive.org/music/David_Szesztay/Cinematic/Snow">David Szesztay</a></p>
<p>Jeanti St Clair would like to again thank Lismore City Council and Nimbin Tourism for commissioning the Nimbin Soundtrail, and all the many contributors to the audio walk. </p>
<h2>Additional reading/listening</h2>
<p><a href="http://soundtrails.com.au/nimbin-soundtrail-2/">Nimbin Soundtrail</a></p>
<h2>Image</h2>
<p>Lead image from Flickr/harryws20/<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/harryws/4509179069/in/album-72157623828646000/">Harry Watson Smith</a>/, published under Creative Commons. </p>
<p><em>Correction: An earlier version of this article included a caption that described the 1973 Aquarius Festival as the “first”. In fact, it was the first Aquarius Festival in Nimbin, and followed other Aquarius festivals that had taken place on university campuses.</em></p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/116520/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
<p class="fine-print"><em><span>Jeanti St Clair has consulted in the past for Soundtrails as an associate producer. She was paid by Lismore City Council to produce the audio walk. She does not have any ongoing financial benefit from Soundtrails or Lismore City Council.</span></em></p>The stories shared with you today are drawn from consultations and interviews with more than 60 Nimbin residents, Aquarius Festival participants and Indigenous elders.Jeanti St Clair, Lecturer in Journalism, Southern Cross UniversityLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1162732019-04-30T07:16:39Z2019-04-30T07:16:39Z‘Labor will win this election. I think that’s virtually unquestionable’: political scientist Andy Marks on #AusVotes2019 and the key issues in NSW<p>We are but a few weeks from a federal election, and the way the wind is blowing may depend on what state you’re in. </p>
<p>Trust Me, I’m An Expert – along with <a href="https://theconversation.com/au/podcasts/politics-with-michelle-grattan">Politics with Michelle Grattan</a> – is bringing you state-focused podcast episodes as polling day approaches. To catch up on all the political drama unfolding in NSW, I spoke to political scientist (and self-described political tragic) Andy Marks, who predicted a Labor victory on May 18.</p>
<p>“Labor will win this election. I think that’s virtually unquestionable. We’re just not seeing enough movement, even in the polls at this point, in the primary vote level, to say the Libs or the Coalition will hang on. I think this is going to be a Labor victory,” he said. </p>
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<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/the-myth-of-the-queensland-voter-australias-trust-deficit-and-the-path-to-indigenous-recognition-115569">The myth of 'the Queensland voter', Australia's trust deficit, and the path to Indigenous recognition</a>
</strong>
</em>
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<p>Take this week’s Newspoll – which appeared to show the gap between the two major parties – with a grain of salt, he said. </p>
<p>“Early in April, we saw exactly the same primary vote polling as we saw on the weekend. So, there hasn’t really been a discernible shift. You need to see a gap open up to the degree of around about five or six points, for the Coalition to even look like hanging on. It will stay tight, I think until polling day, but I’d suggest the momentum is with Labor and it hasn’t substantially shifted.”</p>
<p>You can read the full transcript below, and hear The Conversation’s chief political correspondent Michelle Grattan talk with experts on the seats and issues to watch in WA and Victoria on the <a href="https://theconversation.com/au/podcasts/politics-with-michelle-grattan">Politics with Michelle Grattan</a> podcast.</p>
<p><em>Production assistance by Tilly Gwinner.</em></p>
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<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/politics-with-michelle-grattan-caroline-fisher-on-the-spin-machines-of-ausvotes19-115918">Politics with Michelle Grattan: Caroline Fisher on the spin machines of #AusVotes19</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click <a href="https://pca.st/VTv7">here</a> to listen to Trust Me, I’m An Expert on Pocket Casts).</p>
<p>You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, I’m An Expert.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a> </p>
<hr>
<h2>Additional audio</h2>
<p>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks</a></p>
<p>SBS news <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJC_bE3oWg4">report</a></p>
<p>ABC news <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsxqe148SLY">report</a></p>
<h2>Image</h2>
<p>AAP Image/NIC ELLIS</p>
<h2>Transcript:</h2>
<p><strong>Andy Marks:</strong> I’m Andy Marks, I’m a political scientist and Assistant Vice-Chancellor at Western Sydney University. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> So Andy, let’s just catch up on where things are up to in New South Wales. What do you see as the key issues in voters’ minds in New South Wales as polling day approaches? </p>
<p><strong>Andy Marks:</strong> New South Wales is a strange case. It’s the usual suspects in terms of issues but not in the usual way. So we’re seeing the economy feature but we’re not hearing too much in the way of big ticket reform. We are hearing some of that from Labor of course and it’s not about fiscal performance. That’s not winning votes anymore. It’s about issues like cost of living, it’s about issues like wage stagnation. At the other end, you have issues around negative gearing reform and franking credits which are more at the investment end. So a very unusual take on the economy in terms of elections. </p>
<p>The other issues that feature, of course, Labor have made it about health in terms of cancer care and the package they have there. Alternatively, the Libs have sought to bring it back towards security and issues around border protection, of course, that we saw with John Howard coming into the campaign on the weekend. </p>
<p>The big sleeper is climate and it’s a sleeper in the sense that it’s coming to the fore from a number of angles. We’re seeing the issue of energy reform come up from industry who are madly seeking coherent energy policy from both sides of the parliament. We’re seeing the issue of the environment played out with issues like Adani, and water, of course, is the big one in terms of agriculture and rural electorates across the country. So there’s three different lenses being applied but they all come up in terms of how both sides address the issue of climate. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> You mentioned negative gearing there. Sydney, being the centre of the property boom in Australia, people here seem to be mortgaged up to their eyeballs. Lots of people negatively gearing properties. Do you think that issue might be a decider for some Sydney voters who do take advantage of that policy? </p>
<p><strong>Andy Marks:</strong> Negative gearing will factor on the minds of many voters, but not in the seats that are pressure cookers, so they’re not going to swing seats. I think, for example, certainly among the retirement community those issues, particularly around the franking credits matter, are of importance. The housing market in Sydney and across the eastern states more broadly is softening anyway ahead of this measure. It’s hard to tie a definitive link to that and the coming reforms, should Labor win government. It’s not an issue that’s going to turn swinging seats, but it will factor into some more rusted-on voters. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And speaking of seats, what do you see as the key seats to watch?</p>
<p><strong>Andy Marks:</strong> Across New South Wales, I reckon there’s about five that are up for a change. At the outset, I have to say this election won’t be won or lost in New South Wales. It’s most likely Queensland where you have up to eight seats and margins of 4% or less that will decide it. In Victoria, there’ll be some significant movement as well. There’s about five that I’m looking at in New South Wales in terms of potential change. Wentworth, of course, is the big one with the contest between Kerryn Phelps and Dave Sharma. Lindsay, where Emma Husar has been moved aside through misconduct allegations, and you have a contest there and out at Western Sydney. Banks, the immigration minister faces a challenge there on a 1.4% margin. </p>
<p>Then we, move into some coastal regional seats. Gilmore, where former ALP president Warren Mundine is running against Labor’s Fiona Phillips. Robertson on the Central Coast which is held by just 1.1% by the Libs, so they’re the ones where I think you can see some movement. Now the exciting stuff, in terms of drama, Warringah, of course, where former PM Tony Abbott is facing a challenge. In Reid, Turnbull-backer Craig Laundy turned that razor thin margin into almost a moderately safe seat for the Libs, and that’s up in play again as well. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> You mentioned Gilmore, that’s an area that takes in places like Shoalhaven, Jervis Bay, and some of those Batemans Bay type areas. Tell us, what are some of the issues that will be in voters minds in that area? </p>
<p><strong>Andy Marks:</strong> Look that’s a difficult one to pick. It’s really a four-way contest. You have a candidate in Warren Mundine who was essentially parachuted in by Morrison. The controversy there, of course, being his former role with Labor. </p>
<p>You also have Katrina Hodgkinson, who was a former Nationals New South Wales minister and really reputable individual running against the Labor candidate Fiona Phillips. And Grant Schulz, the Lib turned independent who was passed over by Mundine. So, it’s interesting in the sense that the way the vote splits over the course of the election will be something to watch. It’s really one that’s very uncertain for all of the players. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> You mentioned Reid, which takes in Canada Bay, Burwood, Strathfield and is currently held by Craig Laundy for the Liberals. He’s been somewhat of a comparatively moderate voice. What do you think will be the issues there? </p>
<p><strong>Andy Marks:</strong> Reid is an interesting one. Laundy was an incredibly strong local member and he stood up against his own party’s attempted reforms of the anti-discrimination act. That area was lost to Labor in the recent New South Wales election, due to comments made by the Labor opposition leader around Asians taking jobs. Really retrograde comments on his part. So the momentum probably was with Labor, whether the voters have forgiven the foibles of the state party though will remain to be seen. But, that’s a big loss to the Libs in Craig Laundy moving on. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> I wanted to ask you about the seat of Farrer. That’s a regional seat, it takes in places like Hay, Murrumbidgee. Some of those areas around the Murray Darling, the Central Darling. With the seat of Farrer, what do you think of some of the issues there?</p>
<p><strong>Andy Marks:</strong> Look Farrer is an interesting one - you wouldn’t be talking about an electorate with a 20% plus margin as being one that’s up for grabs, but it is. We saw swings in the state election against the coalition of up to 26% in Murray, 19% in Barwon, and around 37% in Orange. So these rural electorates are very volatile and the issue of water management, of course, is the dominant thread across a seat like Farrer. But it’s a diverse seat. So you have areas like Albury, where unemployment is very high, educational attainment is quite low, economic activity has been suppressed through the drought. So the issues across that electorate are incredibly diverse and equally you don’t have in the New South Wales case we had the Shooters, Fishers and Farmers Party running against the Nationals quite successfully in three seats. They’re not a consolidated force at the federal level. </p>
<p>Really, Farrer’s in play because of the Albury Mayor Kevin Mack, who is running the strongest challenge against Sussan Ley. She’s held onto that seat since 2001 and that’s Tim Fischer’s old seat. So, it should be a sure bet for them. This is suddenly a seat that’s in play. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> So you mentioned water being an issue in the seat of Farrer, and certainly that’s shaping up to be an issue across the board. If you believe what you read on social media, suddenly everybody’s talking about water buybacks and we’ve had the big story breaking around the water buybacks issue that involved Barnaby Joyce. I’m interested to know what you think on how that issue may influence voters in the lead up to polling day. </p>
<p><strong>Andy Marks:</strong> Look, there’s already a bit of disaffection towards the Nationals. I think their own internal troubles around leadership, and the other controversies they’ve had around Andrew Broad and other figures have given weight to the perception that their mind is not on the game. They’ve taken their eye off the ball in terms of the concerns of rural voters. So, that’s why we are seeing such a pronounced reaction against them in some seats. Whether that anger was spent, at the New South Wales election and the earlier Victorian poll remains to be seen. I can’t see a repeat of the swings we saw in the state election here in NSW. But certainly, some very generous margins will be really damaged, I think. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> So let’s talk about Warringah where Tony Abbott is facing that strong challenge from independent Zali Steggall, who’s been supported by GetUp! in her campaign. That’s also become a point of contention and a point of attack for her political foes. How do you see things playing out? </p>
<p><strong>Andy Marks:</strong> Look, there’s no doubt it’s going to be a contest. Zali Steggall will take it down to the wire. People need to be aware though that Tony Abbott loves a fight, shifting him on that margin of over 11% is going to be incredibly difficult. It’s not like Bennelong, for example, where we saw John Howard go as a result of demographic shifts and other factors. And it’s not like Wentworth where, of course, Turnbull stepped aside. A former PM, even one that’s controversial, still attracts some traction among voters. Zali Steggall has done well in opening the debate up into issues that challenge the principles that Tony Abbott’s put forward. So, forcing him to for example to talk more about climate, to talk more about issues where he’s clearly a little uncomfortable, has been a good tactic on her part. Obviously, the work of groups like GetUp! will influence things as well. </p>
<p>I just can’t see it shifting. I think Tony Abbott is far too an experienced player to go down without a fight, and this is the guy that loves to be backed into a corner. I might be proven wrong, but I think he’ll just hang on in Warringah. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And you mentioned former PMs, speaking of which, let’s talk about Wentworth. Do you think voters will punish the Coalition for turfing out Malcolm Turnbull? We saw Turnbull’s son, Alex Turnbull actively encouraging people not to vote for the Liberal candidate Dave Sharma. And as it turned out Kerryn Phelps did win that seat. So how will things play out there? </p>
<p><strong>Andy Marks:</strong> Wentworth is an interesting one. I like to call it the contest for the soul of the Liberal Party. Because really, it’s about whether the party will choose to push forward in a progressive way, or revert more to those hard right tendencies that we’ve seen in recent times. The thing to watch at Wentworth will be whether Phelps has managed to translate in a really short timeframe that protest vote into a base. And that would mean Phelps has to have really strong points of differentiation on issues like climate, immigration and border protection. Which she’s, to a very large extent, done on the latter issue. Whether that’s enough to shift people across for good remains to be seen. That’s one that’s too hard to call. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> So, Andy Marks what’s your prediction? Who do you think is going to win this federal election? </p>
<p><strong>Andy Marks:</strong> Look, Labor will win this election. I think that’s virtually unquestionable. We’re just not seeing enough movement, even in the polls at this point in the primary vote level to see the Libs or the Coalition hang on. I think this is going to be a Labor victory.</p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> Even with Newspoll saying it’s tightening as voting day draws closer? </p>
<p><strong>Andy Marks:</strong> You have to look again at that primary vote figure. Early in April, we saw exactly the same primary vote polling as we saw on the weekend. So, there hasn’t really been a discernible shift. You need to see a gap open up to the degree of around about five or six points, for the Coalition to even look like hanging on. It will stay tight, I think until polling day, but I’d suggest the momentum is with Labor and it hasn’t substantially shifted. So with the Coalition on 38% and Labor on 37%, I don’t see it shifting sufficiently for there to be a change in the momentum.</p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> Let’s talk about the upper house. What do you see as the issues to watch there? </p>
<p><strong>Andy Marks:</strong> Look, that’s an interesting one from the New South Wales point of view. Jim Molan, arguably their highest profile senator, finds himself in an unwinnable spot on their ticket. This is largely due to reforms that he instigated, internal party reform. So it’s a big ask therefore for somebody to get up. You know, you’re going to require a quota in excess of 14% of the vote to get a spot. Brian Burston’s the other interesting one. He’s a former One Nation representative, now with Clive Palmer’s outfit, and he’s their parliamentary leader in the house. It’s a very interesting contest there. There’s Doug Cameron, a long-standing senator for Labor, retiring, and Tony Sheldon, the former Transport Workers Union secretary coming in on his spot.</p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> And just lastly, what do you want to say about preferences? Do you think preferences will make a big difference in this election? </p>
<p><strong>Andy Marks:</strong> Look, there’s no doubt that the question around where the United Australia Party’s preferences flow has been a dominant issue in Queensland. I don’t see it being of sufficient weight to shift the momentum, which again in those marginal electorates, up to eight of them, is all with Labor at the moment. So, it will make things a little trickier to call earlier. But, I still see things going Labor’s way in those key seats. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> Any final comments? </p>
<p><strong>Andy Marks:</strong> Look, this is a contest where New South Wales will provide plenty of action. But it’s not going to be the place where it’s won or lost. But it’s certainly going to be the place of high drama. </p>
<p><strong>Sunanda Creagh:</strong> Andy Marks, thank you so much for your time. </p>
<p><strong>Andy Marks:</strong> Thank you.</p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/116273/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
We are but a few weeks from a federal election, and the way the political wind is blowing may depend on what state you're in.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorTilly Gwinner, Editorial InternLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1155692019-04-18T01:06:18Z2019-04-18T01:06:18ZThe myth of ‘the Queensland voter’, Australia’s trust deficit, and the path to Indigenous recognition<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/269898/original/file-20190418-139113-1h4f6vj.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=24%2C16%2C5439%2C3620&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">Today we're asking: what Queensland seats are the ones to watch on election night? How to give Indigenous Australians a true voice in politics? And how can we improve trust in the political system?</span> <span class="attribution"><span class="source">Shutterstock</span></span></figcaption></figure><p>Today we’re bringing you a special discussion about the federal election that took place at the launch of a book of Conversation essays, <a href="https://www.mup.com.au/books/advancing-australia-paperback-softback">Advancing Australia: Ideas for a Better Country</a>.</p>
<p>Recorded at <a href="https://avidreader.com.au/">Avid Reader</a> bookshop in Brisbane on April 17, the discussion featured Indigenous academic lawyer <a href="https://experts.griffith.edu.au/academic/e.synot">Eddie Synot</a> from Griffith University and Griffith’s Dean of Engagement, Professor <a href="https://www.annetiernan.com.au/">Anne Tiernan</a>.</p>
<p><div data-react-class="Tweet" data-react-props="{"tweetId":"1118434743626813440"}"></div></p>
<p>Eddie Synot is currently completing his PhD, taking a hard look at the liberal rights discourse of Indigenous recognition, and has also taught Indigenous Studies.</p>
<p>And political scientist Anne Tiernan has worked in and advised Australian governments at all levels, so she knows politics from the inside out.</p>
<p>Together with Liz Minchin, the Executive Editor of The Conversation Australia & New Zealand, the panel covered topics including the Queensland seats to watch on election night, how to give Indigenous Australians a true voice in politics, and how to improve trust in the political system.</p>
<p>Today’s episode was recorded by Michael Adams from Griffith University.</p>
<p><div data-react-class="Tweet" data-react-props="{"tweetId":"1118436366977683457"}"></div></p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/our-advancing-australia-series-is-about-starting-a-conversation-about-what-really-matters-112395">Our Advancing Australia series is about starting a conversation about what really matters</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click <a href="https://pca.st/VTv7">here</a> to listen to Trust Me, I’m An Expert on Pocket Casts).</p>
<p>You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, I’m An Expert.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a> </p>
<hr>
<h2>Additional audio</h2>
<p>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks</a></p>
<p>Recording and editing by Michael Adams from Griffith University</p>
<h2>Additional reading</h2>
<p>Buy <a href="https://www.mup.com.au/books/advancing-australia-paperback-softback">Advancing Australia: Ideas for a Better Country </a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.griffith.edu.au/federal-election">Griffith University’s special election coverage</a>, including <a href="https://regionalinnovationdatalab.shinyapps.io/Dashboard/">interactive maps</a> of Queensland’s 30 federal electorates</p>
<p><a href="https://theconversation.com/the-uluru-statement-showed-how-to-give-first-nations-people-a-real-voice-now-its-time-for-action-110707">The Uluru statement showed how to give First Nations people a real voice – now it’s time for action</a> by Griffith University’s Eddie Synot</p>
<p><a href="https://theconversation.com/the-14-indigenous-words-for-money-on-our-new-50-cent-coin-113110">The 14 Indigenous words for money on our new 50 cent coin</a> by the University of Queensland’s Felicity Meakins</p>
<p><a href="https://theconversation.com/explainer-the-significance-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-110982">Explainer: the significance of the Treaty of Waitangi</a> by the University of Waikato’s Sandra Morrison and Ingrid L M Huygens</p>
<p><a href="https://theconversation.com/the-end-of-uncertainty-how-the-2019-federal-election-might-bring-stability-at-last-to-australian-politics-111827">The end of uncertainty? How the 2019 federal election might bring stability at last to Australian politics</a> by University of Canberra’s Michelle Grattan</p>
<h2>Image</h2>
<p>Shutterstock</p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/115569/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
Today, an election-themed episode about some of the biggest policy questions Australia faces, featuring Indigenous academic lawyer Eddie Synot and political scientist Anne Tiernan.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorLiz Minchin, Executive EditorLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1129492019-04-16T01:56:39Z2019-04-16T01:56:39ZMukurtu: an online dilly bag for keeping Indigenous digital archives safe<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/263342/original/file-20190312-86710-1fr7hwk.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=0%2C0%2C2380%2C1161&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">Mukurtu is a Warumungu word meaning “dilly bag” or a safe keeping place for sacred materials. </span> <span class="attribution"><span class="source">Nina Maile Gordon/The Conversation CC-NY-BD</span></span></figcaption></figure><p><em>Reader advice: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander readers are advised that this article may contain images of people who have died.</em></p>
<p>A few years ago, the State Library of NSW was working with Moree’s <a href="https://www.moreetourism.com.au/things-to-do/educational-centres.html">Dhiiyaan Centre</a> to pull together archival photographs of the 1965 Freedom Rides, an Aboriginal-led protest against racist segregationist policies in NSW.</p>
<p>Moree – where <a href="https://www.environment.gov.au/heritage/places/national/moree-baths">Aboriginal people were once banned from swimming in the public pool</a> – was an important site in the history of protest against official segregation in Australia, and a key stop on the Freedom Rides route.</p>
<p>Kirsten Thorpe - a Worimi woman, professional archivist and now a researcher at UTS – was then at the State Library, working with Mitchell Librarian Richard Neville to dig out old protest photos to share with the Moree community in the lead up to an exhibition. </p>
<p>But in practice, collecting, sharing and storing such digital archives in perpetuity is no simple matter. </p>
<p>How to ensure the material is stored safely, so the whole process doesn’t need to be repeated in a few years time? How to capture the outpouring of memories and stories that such an exhibition evokes? What if the exhibition inspires more people to come forward with important historical material or accounts – where does <em>that</em> material end up? And how to ensure Indigenous people are empowered to tell their own stories and have a say over how digital archives are managed?</p>
<p>Enter <a href="http://mukurtu.org/">Mukurtu</a>.</p>
<p>Mukurtu (pronounced MOOK-oo-too) is an online system that aims to help Indigenous communities conserve stories, videos, photographs, songs, word lists and other digital archives.</p>
<p>Mukurtu is a Warumungu word meaning “dilly bag” or a safe keeping place for sacred materials. </p>
<p>It’s a free, mobile, and open source platform built with Indigenous communities in mind to manage and share digital cultural heritage. Kirsten Thorpe says it’s the kind of thing that would have been really useful back when she was collating Freedom Rides material for the Moree community.</p>
<h2>Conserving Indigenous archives for future generations</h2>
<p>Mukurtu is/are already being used by <a href="https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-passamaquoddy-reclaim-their-culture-through-digital-repatriation">Native American communities</a> to store and preserve digital archives, and Kirsten Thorpe – now a senior researcher at the Jumbunna Institute for Indigenous Education and Research at UTS – is involved in making Mukurtu more widely accessible in Australia.</p>
<p>She works with other key players, such as Professor <a href="https://english.wsu.edu/kimberly-christen/">Kimberly Christen</a> at the Centre for Digital Curation and Scholarship in the US and <a href="https://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/about-library/library-executive">Richard Neville</a> at the State Library of NSW, to ensure the Mukurtu Project has the institutional support it needs to help Indigenous communities protect their cultural heritage for generations to come.</p>
<p>On today’s episode of the podcast, Kirsten Thorpe and Richard Neville explain why Mukurtu is needed, how it’s being used and what’s at stake if we don’t find better ways to empower Indigenous people with the skills and tech to conserve and manage digital archives.</p>
<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click <a href="https://pca.st/VTv7">here</a> to listen to Trust Me, I’m An Expert on Pocket Casts).</p>
<p>You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, I’m An Expert.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a> </p>
<hr>
<h2>Additional audio</h2>
<p>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks</a></p>
<p>ABC News 1965 intro <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qJstzCNgHE">music</a>.</p>
<p>Lee Rosevere, <a href="http://freemusicarchive.org/music/Lee_Rosevere/Music_For_Podcasts_5/Lee_Rosevere_-_Music_For_Podcasts_5_-_08_Betrayal">Betrayal</a>.</p>
<h2>Lead image:</h2>
<p>Nina Maile Gordon</p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/112949/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
Mukurtu - Warumungu word meaning 'dilly bag' or a safe keeping place for sacred materials - is an online system helping Indigenous people conserve photos, songs and other digital archives.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorNina Maile Gordon, Illustration Intern, Graphic DesignerLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1131192019-03-08T00:46:14Z2019-03-08T00:46:14ZMark Latham in the upper house? A Coalition minority government? The NSW election is nearly upon us and it’s going to be a wild ride<p>We are but weeks away from an election in New South Wales – polling day is on March 23 – and it will be eagerly watched. Not just for the outcome but for the implications for the looming federal election.</p>
<p>That’s according to Dr Andy Marks, a political scientist from Western Sydney University, who tells us on the podcast today that this state election outcome may give us some clues on how some global political themes are playing out here in Australia.</p>
<p>“It’s not just about state politics. Increasingly the Australian electoral cycles, federally and at the state level, are subject to changes in political dynamics internationally. We’re seeing the erosion of centrist politics around the world […] and that even affects humble New South Wales.”</p>
<p>He predicts a weakened Nationals Party will be facing a strong challenge from the Shooters, Fishers and Farmers Party and that One Nation’s Mark Latham is almost a sure bet to win a spot in the NSW upper house. </p>
<p>“I do think you’ll see a minority Coalition government returned but the really interesting play is what happens in the upper house. Currently, the Coalition have to deal with two to three independents or minor parties to get stuff over the line,” said Dr Marks.</p>
<p>“I think what we’ll see in the coming parliament is that that the ranks of cross-benchers will expand quite dramatically, up to seven to nine cross-benchers. So that makes negotiations pretty fraught.</p>
<p>"This is really going to be new territory,” he said. “We’ve got One Nation returning to the fold. Mark Latham, their number one ticket holder in the upper house, will get in. But potentially they’ll get two seats in the upper house. You’ll have an emboldened Shooters and Fishers Party.</p>
<p>"So you really have a really broad field and it’s going to mean negotiating the passage of bills will be pretty difficult.”</p>
<p>We also talked about:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>why East Hills (which takes in suburbs like Panania, Condell Park, the Bankstown aerodrome, Padstow, Revesby and others) is the most marginal seat in NSW</p></li>
<li><p>how a plan to demolish and rebuild two stadiums turned into a political headache for NSW premier Gladys Berejiklian</p></li>
<li><p>why Michael Daley, who took over from Luke Foley as NSW Labor leader late last year, is only now just making his mark</p></li>
<li><p>how local issues in rural seats may end up deciding the fate of the state</p></li>
<li><p>what it all means as we head into the May federal election.</p></li>
</ul>
<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click <a href="https://pca.st/VTv7">here</a> to listen to Trust Me, I’m An Expert on Pocket Casts).</p>
<p>You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, I’m An Expert.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a> </p>
<hr>
<h2>Additional audio</h2>
<p>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks</a></p>
<p>ABC news <a href="https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-05/michael-daley-threatens-to-sack-alan-jones-and-scg-trust/10870814">report on 2GB interview</a> </p>
<p>2GB interview <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCnN3U85k7k">clip</a>.</p>
<h2>Image:</h2>
<p>Chris Pavlich/Dean Lewins(AAP)</p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/113119/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
It's worth keeping an eye on the NSW election outcome. It may end up telling us a lot about how global political themes, like the erosion of centrist politics, are playing out here in Australia.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1120702019-02-21T19:06:55Z2019-02-21T19:06:55Z‘I think we should be very concerned’: A cyber crime expert on this week’s hack and what needs to happen next<p>When Prime Minister Scott Morrison announced this week that a “sophisticated state actor” had targeted the big Australian political parties in a major cyber attack, the revelation threw up more questions than answers. </p>
<p>Who did it and how? What data did they get their hands on? How vulnerable is our data – and our democracy? </p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/weve-been-hacked-so-will-the-data-be-weaponised-to-influence-election-2019-heres-what-to-look-for-112130">We've been hacked – so will the data be weaponised to influence election 2019? Here’s what to look for</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<p>To make sense of it all, we’re hearing today from Nigel Phair, the director of UNSW Canberra Cyber and an expert on the intersection of crime, technology and society. </p>
<p>He said that while hacks like these should be seen as “the new normal” there was good reason to be concerned. </p>
<p>“Just merely having a breach is quite a big deal. Secondly, you look at the information that they hold. Political parties have information on donors – who they are and how much they give and what they want for it. They have information on the electorate, they have information on their own party politics and tactics for Senate Estimates for Question Time, those sorts of things,” he said.</p>
<p>“So that’s a lot of rich data that you could then use as a nation state to infiltrate other areas to perhaps change voter outcomes.”</p>
<p>The hackers may have used social engineering techniques such as phishing to gain access to the data, he said.</p>
<p>“They are quite unsophisticated attacks. It’s often spoofing an organisation or a person and getting someone, an end user, to reveal login credentials. And because we share passwords across multiple logins, that’s how you gain access to a trophy asset,” he said, adding that the hack served as a reminder to <a href="https://theconversation.com/au/topics/password-managers-38249">use a password manager</a> and ensure all passwords are long and strong.</p>
<p>“I think we should be very concerned. We’ve got a great case study from the US. We’re very allied to the US and when you look at how nation states have disrupted that election I think it’s a given that there are many out there that’ll disrupt ours.”</p>
<p>You can read an edited transcript of the interview below. </p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/a-state-actor-has-targeted-australian-political-parties-but-that-shouldnt-surprise-us-111997">A state actor has targeted Australian political parties – but that shouldn't surprise us</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
<p>Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click <a href="https://pca.st/VTv7">here</a> to listen to Trust Me, I’m An Expert on Pocket Casts).</p>
<p>You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, I’m An Expert.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a> </p>
<p><em>Additional audio editing by Wes Mountain, production assistance from Bageshri Savyasachi.</em></p>
<hr>
<h2>Additional audio</h2>
<p>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks</a></p>
<p>ABC news <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltCJa0FGcVA">report</a> </p>
<h2>Image:</h2>
<p>AAP (Various)/Shutterstock/The Conversation</p>
<h2>Transcript</h2>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: And so what’s the main concern? Why was everybody so worried about this, particularly earlier this week?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: I think when you look at the history with the attack in the US on the DNC (Democratic National Committee), and a lot that’s been reported in the US about nation states trying to infiltrate the election process over there and change people’s voting habits and we’re some weeks/months from an election here – it strikes at the heart of what could be our dear beloved democracy, when you have nation state actors trying to influence voting outcomes.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: And what do you think this week’s events tell us about the cyber security weaknesses here in Australia?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: It tells us that no organisation is immune. It tells us that cyber is another vector for people trying to win the hearts and minds of people.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: If I was a sophisticated nation state using this as a strategy to achieve that goal, how might this sort of hack help me achieve that goal? What do you think they were actually trying to do here?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: There’s a number of things that they’ve achieved. Firstly, is the goal of doing the hack. When we look at parliament house, we look at the political parties, when we think about it, they’re revered from a democratic perspective. Just merely having a breach is quite a big deal. </p>
<p>Secondly, you look at the information that they hold. Political parties have information on donors – who they are and how much they give and what they want for it. They have information on the electorate, they have information on their own party politics and tactics for Senate Estimates for Question Time, those sorts of things. So a lot of rich data that you could then use as a nation state to infiltrate other areas to perhaps change voter outcomes.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: China has strongly denied that it was involved but a lot of speculation has focused on that country, as opposed to Russia or another state actor that’s been linked to this kind of behaviour in other contexts. In Australia, why do you think speculation has focused on China as a potential perpetrator?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: Basically because they’re a near neighbour to ours, they’re in our arc of instability. They’re well known for their theft of intellectual property online. They’re well known for not adhering to the international norms of cyberspace. Add that all up and that’s why people keep pointing the finger at them.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: And I believe there’s news reports that China was linked to other previous hacks of universities and parliament and other key pieces of computer infrastructure around Australia. Is that right?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: That’s right. They’ve been well known to do a range of cyber attacks on a range of different organisations – government, non-government, commercial etc.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: So in the context of concerns that Australians have about the government’s capacity to keep our personal information safe – and I’m thinking here about the talk around My Health Record, the census – what does this hack tell us, if anything, about how capable the government and people in power are at guarding our private details?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: I think we need to go back a couple of steps before we start to think about this. Government, what they haven’t done is take the citizenry of Australia on a journey. They haven’t explained to them what it means to participate in a digital economy. What it means to be a good online citizen and transact with government and social media, commercially, e-commerce. If we had that narrative from the outset then people could understand that the internet is just another public place where they act ethically and lawfully and responsibly to what they do in the real world, then I think we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Because people would be able to have an informed decision about what it means to participate with My Health Record, or participate in an online census or other government instruments. But at the moment we just never had that background and people don’t have the certainty and because of that they make knee-jerk reactions.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: Where do you land on this issue, do you think the government is capable of keeping that data safe?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: I think the government is capable of keeping it safe. The systems around My Health Record for example are really quite secure and there’s a lot of technologies, a lot of process and a lot of policy to ensure. But the reality is if there is going to be a breach of my health record, it’ll probably happen at a doctor’s surgery where there’s an unpatched or unprotected computer, or a user not using a good password, or accidentally emailing the wrong patient records to someone. It will be the end user compromise which we’ll see will be the failure. And that’s what the government isn’t investing in. It’s great to say they have a great secure system themselves but again we need to wind the clock back several years and start telling people this is what it means.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: Just on this hack, how might it have been actually perpetrated? Can you just explain that to me in really basic terms?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: We don’t know yet until the forensic examination is done about how it occurred. Invariably, it was most probably some sort of social engineering attack against someone on the network. Most probably a phishing attack or something similar, where a person is targeted rather than the network itself is targeted. But again, until we know the forensics, we’re just speculating.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: And those phishing and social engineering attacks, am I right in thinking they mainly focus on trying to get somebody to reveal their password or their login details to another person who is perhaps impersonating somebody else or impersonating an official password reset type email. Is that the sort of thing you mean there about the social engineering?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: Invariably, they are quite unsophisticated attacks. It’s spoofing an organisation or a person. Getting someone, an end user, to reveal login credentials and because we share passwords across multiple logins, that’s how you gain access to a trophy asset.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: So the lesson there for all of us really is never reuse your password details and get a password manager. Am I right?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: You are right.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: We’ve heard some commentators saying that this is the new normal, that this type of attack really should be expected in this day and age. What do you think about that?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: It’s been the new normal for quite some time. The reality is, most organisations get hacked just don’t know they’ve been hacked. This is all of a sudden a trophy matter, it’s come at the time where parliament is sitting, so it’s really got some attention in society, which is a great thing. And added to that the government that’s come out and actually said this is what’s happened and that is a completely different policy shift, whereas before it was swept under the carpet.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: Do you think that’s a positive policy shift?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: There’s a great positive. We need to start having a conversation about what it means to be online and what it means to participate. And the fact is there’s countries out there, there’s actors out there trying to do us harm and Australians need to be brought into that confidence.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: There was a lot of talk about this at the start of this week, but it really has sort of shifted off the news headlines toward the end of the week and some people are now saying that was a lot of noise over what? And I’ve seen some media commentators saying that this was an announcement that fed into a narrative of fear as election day draws closer. And that is a criticism that’s been directed at the government in the past in their rhetoric around border control and security in more general terms. To what extent do you see this announcement as about safety and awareness and how much of it is politics?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: I couldn’t put a percentage on either way but I focus purely on the safety and awareness side of it. I just think that’s the value of the message – is the safety and awareness.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: It’s an important message to get out to make people aware of those risks. And, as you say, bring them into that conversation around online security and online participation in an active globally networked world, is that right?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: That’s right.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: So what needs to be done? What should governments do to reduce risks and educate people?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: So the first thing for their internal networks, they need to do a proper risk management exercise. They need to identify the key target assets they hold and work out how sensitive that information is and put appropriate controls around where that data sits. Whether it’s a technology stack, whether it’s internal, cloud-based, those sort of decisions. And secondly, who has access to it, why they have access to it and how they access it. And once you start doing some simple things like that, you’ll find the cyber security posture of parliament house or a political party or anyone else in corporate Australia can really change the way that they’re viewed from a cyber security perspective.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: And if, and I know this is speculation, but if the source of the problem was somebody sharing their login credentials or being victim to a phishing scam or victim to some social engineering then it sounds like it’s possible that some education is needed around that issue and what to be aware of and how not to get tricked online.</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: Well, that’s a tough one. There aren’t sufficient technical controls to protect our data and ourselves online. In fact, we should’ve looked for any technical silver bullet. Likewise, we know education doesn’t work either. But education is all we have. So all we can keep doing is reinforce the message, particularly amongst young people as they grow up and participate in the online economy, and hopefully as time goes on we’ll be better protected for it.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: In other words, not forgetting to address the capacity for human error in our effort to cover off and protect ourselves from technical error.</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: Human error, but also the use of third parties and outlying people that you might not have specific command and control over.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: And going back to this week’s hack, if I am an individual who has given my details as a donor or as a supporter to a political party, what does this hack tell us about what we as individuals might do in future to protect our data?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: Well, if you think you’ve (experienced) a loss of your data through this process, the first thing to do – contact the party that you’ve made say the donation or whatever it might be to. Secondly would be to start thinking about how that data or information that’s been stolen might be used against you - whether it’s identity theft or takeover, for example. So you need to start monitoring your bank accounts, you need to start thinking about consumer credit that might be done in your name. So you should be probably doing a credit reference check.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: What advice do you give to people who want to use best practice in keeping their details safe online?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: Best thing you can do is use strong and long passwords. More stealthy it is, the harder it will be to guess by anyone else. Second, don’t replay the same password across multiple logins. Thirdly, be really wary when online and navigating around social media and e-commerce and other places. Really think about where you put your personal information in and why you’re placing it into a particular website or a portal.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: Now, in the US we’ve heard about state actors really appearing to have an influence on election outcomes. How concerned do you think Australians should be about that happening here?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: I think we should be very concerned, we’ve got a great case study from the US. We’re very allied to the US and when you look at nation states that have disrupted that election I think it’s a given that there’s many out there that’ll disrupt ours.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: So what can we do about that?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: It’s a tough one. We need to start working with all the players involved. And this is where the social media companies come into it. Your Googles, your Facebooks, your Twitters, your Instagrams etc. Because that’s the place of choice that nation states will use to send out any bespoke messaging.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: Should we be changing any progression we’re making in Australia towards electronic voting?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: We have zero progression towards electronic voting, unfortunately, and I think it’s a great thing. But because we had the census failure, because we had the robo-debt issues, because we had the My Health Record issues, as a population there’s no way in my generation that we will see electronic voting. We just won’t countenance it because of the perceived risks. I’m a pro-online guy. We doom and gloom everything online too much and I’m guilty for doing that. But we want people to participate online. We are great and early adopters of mobile smart devices and we love being online itself, so it makes sense for service delivery to be online, it makes sense to order your food online, to do social media, participate in everything, there’s a lot of good benefit. But because we hear this messaging all the time about the government can’t deal with online issues, there’s already this level of distrust and dissatisfaction out there that voting will just be another one of those things. And the facts just don’t support that.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: Would there be anything that you’d change about the way political parties collect or are allowed to collect data on people given that they seem to be a perfect target or a growing target?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: Oh, there’s lots I’d change. Primary to that is the Privacy Act and adherence to the privacy principles of which political parties don’t need to.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: In what way? What change would you make?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: Well, I’d ensure that political parties have to adhere to the privacy principles when it comes to the collection, the storage, retention and dissemination of personally identifying information.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: And what are the privacy principles?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: Well the privacy principles, there’s 13 of them, inform organisations in Australia where they have a turnover of more than A$3 million about how they should collect data, how they should store that data, how they should disseminate it and how they should destroy it. There’s some simple advice that’s provided by the Australian Office of the Information Commissioner. And they’re quite easy to adhere to, but unfortunately political parties are exempt from that and I see that as being a bad thing.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: So we’re at a point where I guess you’d have to assume that basically anybody could be a target for a hack and any organisation could be. So what options are there for organisations like political parties that don’t have My Health Record level of security set ups or government scale security set ups?</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: Well, the first thing they have to do is acknowledge that they’re are a target. Then they have to go through a risked-based process to understand what their information assets are, what their technology stack is, and who has access to it and make sound investment decisions around that. We can no longer, as a society, just say “it’s not us that gets hacked, it’s always someone else”. I mean, there is a cost of participating online.</p>
<p>SUNANDA CREAGH: Nigel Phair, thank you so much for talking to us.</p>
<p>NIGEL PHAIR: Pleasure.</p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/112070/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
This week, a 'sophisticated state actor' hacked the big Australian political parties. In today's episode, an expert on crime and technology says 'it's a given' that some will try to disrupt elections.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorWes Mountain, Social Media + Visual Storytelling EditorBageshri Savyasachi, Editorial InternLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1117562019-02-14T05:41:13Z2019-02-14T05:41:13ZA refugee law expert on a week of ‘reckless’ rhetoric and a new way to process asylum seeker claims<p>Today, we’re bringing you a special episode of our podcast <a href="https://theconversation.com/au/podcasts/trust-me-podcast">Trust Me, I’m An Expert</a> for anyone wondering: what the hell happened this week? </p>
<p>A sitting government lost a vote on the floor of parliament (which hasn’t happened in decades) over a bill that aims to facilitate medical transfers from Manus and Nauru. </p>
<p>(You can hear the MP Kerryn Phelps, who set the ball rolling for that legislation, give her account on Michelle Grattan’s politics podcast over <a href="https://theconversation.com/politics-with-michelle-grattan-kerryn-phelps-on-medical-transfer-numbers-111751">here</a>).</p>
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Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/politics-with-michelle-grattan-kerryn-phelps-on-medical-transfer-numbers-111751">Politics with Michelle Grattan: Kerryn Phelps on medical transfer numbers</a>
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<p>A day after a bloc of cross-benchers and the opposition won the vote, Prime Minister Scott Morrison signalled the government may re-open the Christmas Island detention facility and the Coalition was accusing Labor of being weak on borders. </p>
<p>In other words, a federal election campaign centred on border security has well and truly begun. </p>
<p>To help us understand the broader context, we’re hearing today from Dr Daniel Ghezelbash, a refugee law expert from Macquarie University. </p>
<p>In our discussion, he busted several myths about how the asylum seeker “medevac” bill would work, and described as “reckless” political rhetoric that the new legislation represents a destruction of Australia’s border security. </p>
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Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/explainer-how-will-the-medevac-bill-actually-affect-ill-asylum-seekers-111645">Explainer: how will the 'medevac' bill actually affect ill asylum seekers?</a>
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<p>This week, many Australians cheered the release of refugee footballer Hakeem Al-Araibi, and <a href="https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-14/politicisation-of-refugees-stop-playing-politics-with-migration/10808394">reports</a> emerged showing airport arrivals of asylum seekers has soared, but much of the political discussion centred on boat arrivals.</p>
<p>The focus on boat arrivals in the lead-up to an election should be familiar to any student of Australian political history, he said – but this time it may be different. </p>
<p>Join us on Trust Me, I’m An Expert, as Dr Daniel Ghezelbash explains a <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/31/theres-a-workable-alternative-to-australias-asylum-policy">policy alternative</a> to our current system of offshore processing that he says wouldn’t involve compromising security or shirking our international legal obligations.</p>
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Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/we-dont-know-how-many-asylum-seekers-are-turned-away-at-australian-airports-111344">We don't know how many asylum seekers are turned away at Australian airports</a>
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<h2>New to podcasts?</h2>
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<p>You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, I’m An Expert.</p>
<p><a href="https://itunes.apple.com/au/podcast/trust-me-im-an-expert/id1290047736?mt=2&ign-mpt=uo%3D8"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233721/original/file-20180827-75984-1gfuvlr.png" alt="Listen on Apple Podcasts" width="268" height="68"></a> <a href="https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly90aGVjb252ZXJzYXRpb24uY29tL2F1L3BvZGNhc3RzL3RydXN0LW1lLXBvZGNhc3QucnNz"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233720/original/file-20180827-75978-3mdxcf.png" alt="" width="268" height="68"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-conversation/trust-me-im-an-expert"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233716/original/file-20180827-75981-pdp50i.png" alt="Stitcher" width="300" height="88"></a> <a href="https://tunein.com/podcasts/News--Politics-Podcasts/Trust-Me-Im-An-Expert-p1035757/"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233723/original/file-20180827-75984-f0y2gb.png" alt="Listen on TuneIn" width="318" height="125"></a></p>
<p><a href="https://radiopublic.com/trust-me-im-an-expert-Wa3E5A"><img class="alignnone size-medium wp-image-152" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/233717/original/file-20180827-75990-86y5tg.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" alt="Listen on RadioPublic" width="268" height="87"></a> <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/7myc7drbLJVaRitAMXLB7V"><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/237984/original/file-20180925-149976-1ks72uy.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=268&fit=clip" width="268" height="82"></a> </p>
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<h2>Additional audio</h2>
<p>Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from <a href="https://www.elefanttraks.com/">Elefant Traks</a></p>
<p>Guardian News <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PMBdBNAneE">video</a>. </p>
<p>Sky News <a href="https://twitter.com/SkyNewsAust/status/1095493652502081536">report</a>.</p>
<p>RN Breakfast <a href="https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/future-under-labor-means-weak-border-protection/10810282">report</a>.</p>
<h2>Image:</h2>
<p>AAP Image/Mick Tsikas</p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/111756/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
Today on Trust Me, I'm An Expert, a refugee legal expert busts myths about how proposed medical transfer rules would work, and described some of this week's border security rhetoric as 'reckless'.Sunanda Creagh, Senior EditorLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.