Azarenka, Tsonga and the sexism that chokes women’s tennis

Two interesting and intersecting events occurred at the Australian Open this week. First, Frenchman Jo-Wilfried Tsonga questioned women’s ability to control their emotions while playing tennis at a press conference. The following day, world number one Victoria Azarenka won her semi-final match in controversial…

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Jo-Wilfried Tsonga thinks women’s tennis is affected by their unstable emotions. AAP/Joe Castro

Two interesting and intersecting events occurred at the Australian Open this week. First, Frenchman Jo-Wilfried Tsonga questioned women’s ability to control their emotions while playing tennis at a press conference.

The following day, world number one Victoria Azarenka won her semi-final match in controversial circumstances when she took two medical timeouts late in the second set of her Australian Open semi-final clash with US teen Sloane Stephens. In her post-match on-court interview, Azarenka seemed to suggest that she had panicked and needed the medical timeouts to pull herself together. While she later retreated from this explanation, the damage was already done to her and to women’s tennis.

Azarenka’s actions have been described by Stephens’ coach and a raft of former professional players as “cheating within the rules” and “unsportsmanlike”. One article said she should be disqualified. Although Australian Open management later confirmed that Azarenka was indeed treated for two separate injuries during the medical timeouts, this did not stop critics from basically accusing her of cheating.

After his loss to Swiss maestro Roger Federer in the men’s quarter final, world number eight Jo-Wilfried Tsonga was asked why there is not a similar dominance of a handful of women in the sport. Although the question is factually incorrect (there are a dominant few women on the professional women’s tennis circuit), it gave Tsonga a forum for his chauvinistic views.

Victoria Azarenka has been in the news for allegedly choking and has been accused of gamesmanship. AAP/Joe Castro

Tsonga explained that the reason men dominate is because women are more emotionally unstable than men. “I’m sure everybody will say it’s true, even the girls”, he said. “I mean, it’s just about hormones and all this stuff. We don’t have all these bad things so we are physically in a good shape every time and you are not.”

In saying this, Tsonga essentially attributed what he perceives to be women’s uneven performance with the menstrual cycle, reinforcing the stereotype that women are overly emotional and prone to breakdown under pressure due to their biological make-up. They can’t help it in his view, and because of that they will never be able to match the men. Regretfully, Azarenka’s initial confession that she choked and felt the onset of panic during her match with Stephens reinforces these negative stereotypes even though the highest ranked female tennis player in the world eventually made her way into Saturday’s final, where she will seek to defend her title.

Tsonga’s comments highlight ongoing questions about women in professional tennis.

First of all, it is debatable whether there has not been a similar dominance of a small number of top players in the women’s singles, historically and at present. What about all-time greats such as Steffi Graf (22 Grand Slams), Martina Navratilova (18 Grand Slams), Serena Williams (15 Grand Slams) and Monica Seles (9 Grand Slams)?

There is compelling evidence that the prevailing belief that men’s tennis is currently highly predictable and less competitive than women’s tennis is false when we look at the entire tours. Economist Liam Lenten calculated that overall, men’s tennis is actually (slightly) more competitive than women’s tennis in terms of the percentage of matches that go to the deciding set, the likelihood of upsets, and so forth.

But even if casual observers of the game find women’s tennis less predictable and more competitive than men’s, it follows that women’s tennis would offer a more balanced and interesting proposition to watch. Indeed, it would mean that women’s tennis has a greater element of uncertainty which, as former cricketer Ed Smith vividly argues in his book Luck, is a key ingredient of a game’s popularity. Why, then, does women’s tennis have smaller television audiences and fewer fans and sponsors than men’s tennis?

Martina Navratilova is arguably the greatest tennis player of all time. AAP/Julian Smith

The answer, unfortunately, is quite simple: sexism. The portrayal of women as emotionally unstable feeds into deeply rooted stereotypes regarding biological difference and how this affects performance in sports. The gendered nature of sport is not just cultural, but structural – it is structured by codified rules of segregation. In fact, sport is one of the most segregated institutions in western societies.

Tennis is a prime example of a sport with profound gender segregation, especially at the competitive level. The entire elite level (apart from the mixed doubles) is separated by gender – the ATP World Tour for men and the Women’s Tennis Association (WTA) for women. Why this is the case seems obvious: men are physically stronger and faster than women, and therefore it would be unfair for them to compete against each other. But this belief seems to justify the positioning of women’s sport below men’s in terms of funding, media attention and general esteem. The gender divisions in sport are reinforced by patriarchal beliefs about the value and capacity of women.

A striking example of this was an article by Fairfax journalist Richard Hinds who drew on what he perceived as Azarenka’s meltdown to denigrate women’s tennis. In his article he likened women’s tennis players to prostitutes, writing:

Why pay for a sensory experience you can get for nothing standing outside an opened window at a brothel?

The real challenge will be to address these deeper sources of unfairness by challenging conventional perceptions of tennis as a “gentleman’s sport”. Of all professional sports, tennis is the main one where women are prominently featured. Women’s tennis is covered on prime time television, and in the Grand Slam tournaments there is gender equity in the prize pool. But as long as erroneous beliefs about women’s hormones continue to shape our reviews of the women’s game, women’s tennis will continually strive for the recognition it deserves.

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82 Comments sorted by

  1. Patrick Lowe

    Student

    I'd say the fact that the women tennis players get paid the same as the men is an example of sexism. They get paid the same prize money for doing what is essentially half the work, how does that seem fair? They should play 5 sets, and if not, there is no way they deserve equal prize money.

    I personally don't like women's tennis, for 2 reasons. Firstly like the author states, the men are physically superior and henceforth the game is faster and played at a higher skill level. Why watch an inferior…

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    1. Sue Ieraci

      Public hospital clinician

      In reply to Patrick Lowe

      What does the payment for playing tennis, or any professional sport, have to do with work value? It's about entertainment.

      If the promoters would go broke paying what they pay, I suspect they might stop. Meanwhile, child care workers and research scientists can continue to wonder about work value.

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    2. Colin MacGillivray

      Retired architect

      In reply to Patrick Lowe

      Patrick is correct. The article's authors ask "Why, then, does women’s tennis have smaller television audiences and fewer fans and sponsors than men’s tennis?" Their answer is sexism, whatever that is in this context.
      The more likely answer is because women are less skillful and therefore less entertaining. Sport is entertainment. Martina Navratilova reckoned she would be in the men's top 100 if the man only had one serve.
      Why watch number 99s on Saturday when number 1s are on Sunday?

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    3. Kent Dorfman

      logged in via Twitter

      In reply to Sue Ieraci

      I agree it's about entertainment and I personally find listening to the screeching and wailing (not grunting) of the likes of Azarenka and Sharapova about as entertaining as a jackhammer in the middle of the night. Also there are more lopsided, error ridden finals in the women's game than the men's. I'm sure I could dig up stats to back this up. If people find that entertaining and are happy to pay more than $300 to see it, fine. I wouldn't. I have also wondered what would happen to the women's game if they didn't play slams and masters series events at the same time as the men....

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    4. Kent Dorfman

      logged in via Twitter

      In reply to Kent Dorfman

      Many viewers don't want to watch floggings as it lacks quality and is not exactly competitive. At grand slam level 6-0 6-0 score lines have occurred 51 times in the women's event and 5 in the men's not including retirement or default. Such lopsided scorelines have been consistent in the women's game since 2004 but not seen in men's grand slam tennis since 1993.

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    5. Judith Olney

      Ms

      In reply to Sue Ieraci

      Sue, I find it interesting that no-one is calling for the men to play only three sets of tennis. I find the 5 hour long tennis matches incredibly boring, and would much rather a shorter game. Men's tennis tends to be far less interesting to watch IMO, and highly predictable, so of less entertainment value than women's tennis.

      The lack of interest in women's sport in our society as a whole, IMO flows onto a lack of interest young women and girls have in taking up a sport. They simply have far fewer…

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    6. Murray Webster

      Forestry-Ecology Consultant/Contractor

      In reply to Colin MacGillivray

      I agree with this sentiment. Men's tennis, and many sports based on strength, speed, etc, are played at a higher level i.e. it's better. I've tried watching eg womens A-League soccer and it is no-where near as good at the Hyundai A-League mens soccer. And I've tried watching Hyundai A-League mens soccer, but it's no-where near as good as UEFA (european football competition). I prefer UEFA by a long way because the standard is so good, such skill and precision is amazing.
      As for emotional stability, I have read that the five-factor model reveals gender differences in a two attributes. On average women tend to be more Neurotic and men less, and women tend to score higher on the Agreeableness scale as well. This would indicate that women do tend to be more emotionally unstable.
      Tennis players are hardly a random sample, and there is always overlap between genders. John McEnroe's on-court tantrums had similar responses to those cited in the article.

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    7. Nick Kermode

      logged in via email @hotmail.com

      In reply to Sue Ieraci

      Hi Sue, "What does the payment for playing tennis, or any professional sport, have to do with work value? It's about entertainment."

      Whichever way you look at it make no difference. They do far less work and their matches are almost always far less entertaining. Receiving the same money is both ridiculous and sexist. The promoters only pay what they pay for an inferior product because they can subsidise it from other parts of the tournament, mostly the mens singles attraction of sponsorship dollars. If you want proof of this separate the two competitions and see what happens. Golf is a good example. The womans British Open major has a prize pool about a quarter of the men and you could usually fire a shot gun in the grandstands (and they do play 72 holes just like the men!!) This is typical for golf events, cricket events, basketball, cycling, soccer etc etc

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    8. Dale Bloom

      Analyst

      In reply to Judith Olney

      Women’s tennis has been televised for decades. If one of the players hasn’t got nice legs, the whole match becomes too boring to watch.

      Rarely does a female tennis player put any spin on the ball, other than a small amount of top spin. They rarely go to the net to do a volley, and spend most of the time standing on the base line hitting the ball backwards and forwards until one player makes an error.

      Their serves are usually lollypop serves, and if they hit the ball back, it either goes straight into the net, or they hit it 2 to 3 feet above the net.

      An average junior male tennis player would show much more skill than an average senior female tennis player, and most of the women in international tournaments wouldn’t make it past first round if they played in the men’s competition.

      It has nothing to do with lack of televised viewing.

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    9. Judith Olney

      Ms

      In reply to Dale Bloom

      Dale, I wasn't talking exclusively about tennis in my post, I was talking about the general lack of televised women's sport, in general.

      You are entitled to your opinion on what constitutes a good tennis match, but this is just your personal opinion, and one that I find to be quite in keeping with your general character, so I can dismiss it as such, and not take it as any indication of the view of others.

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    10. Ross lumbus

      Private Citizen

      In reply to Judith Olney

      Actually, Patrick above you, kind of was calling for men to do three sets.
      Iam glad you like womens tennis more than you like mens. Variety is the spice of life. I would hate to have the same values, mores, preferences, drives and ambitions as everyone else.
      Obviously it appears that most people who follow tennis seem not to hold the view of womens tennis that you do, hence the small audience numbers and sponsorship.
      but if you truly believe that the only thing really holding girls back is lack…

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    11. Judith Olney

      Ms

      In reply to Ross lumbus

      My post was about women's sport in general, more so than the lack of televised tennis. Tennis is already widely televised, but other women's sport is not.

      This is gradually changing, and my hope is that it will continue to change.

      I would love to see changes in Tennis, such as 3 set games for both men and women, much like the changes to cricket in the last couple of decades. People enjoy the 20/20 cricket and the one day games, because fewer people have the time to watch 4 day test matches…

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    12. Dale Bloom

      Analyst

      In reply to Judith Olney

      It is difficult to discuss some subject when the other person doesn’t have much sense of humour.

      I wouldn’t be suggesting more television coverage of women’s sport, but something a little more adventurous and exciting for women, which is to develop their own sport.

      Instead of piggybacking on the backs of men, and waiting for them to develop a sport, develop the rules, develop the equipment etc, and THEN coming into the sport, and THEN saying that men are sexist (or using feminists to say that men are sexist), women can develop their own sport, develop the rules, develop the equipment etc.

      In that way women have something to show, and won't need to call men sexist.

      Problem solved.

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    13. Kris McCracken

      logged in via Facebook

      In reply to Judith Olney

      Actually, Goran Ivanisevic was in the news the other day suggesting that five sets are too many for today’s tennis. I reckon that the introduction in the US Open’s of the tiebreaker in fifth sets of men’s matches is a harbinger of changes on that front.

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    14. Judith Olney

      Ms

      In reply to Dale Bloom

      Its not that I have no sense of humour Dale, I just don't find you funny.

      Your posts are usually bitter tirades against any issue that you perceive as challenging your view that women are inferior to men, and you seem unable to get past this, and as such, you don't tend to have anything constructive to say, in my view.

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    15. Judith Olney

      Ms

      In reply to Kris McCracken

      Thanks Kris, could this be the beginning of changes to tennis, much like the changes to other sports, where we see a shorter but more intense game being played?

      I watched a golf tournament last year, where there were both male and female players, and the use of "power plays" and other rule changes, that led to a fast paced, very interesting game. It would be great to see this more often.

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    16. Dale Bloom

      Analyst

      In reply to Judith Olney

      It is difficult, but time for women to show a little more effort.

      Many new sports are being invented, and time now for women to invent just one.

      Instead of continuously relying on ment to invent everything, and then complaining about it afterwards.

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    17. Judith Olney

      Ms

      In reply to Dale Bloom

      Dale you do precisely what you accuse women of doing, unless of course you have personally invented a well known sport that you participate in or watch. You are simply piggybacking on the inventions of those that came before you.

      Many new things, sports, technologies, ideas etc etc, are being invented, every day, and people can access these, (giving credit where it is due to the inventor), and use these things to their own benefit.

      Sport is no different.

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  2. Seamus Gardiner

    Citizen

    ..'questioned women’s ability to control their emotions..', you mean like John McEnroe had total mastery of his emotions?

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    1. Tim Scanlon

      Debunker

      In reply to Seamus Gardiner

      Actually, I'm pretty sure that McEnroe used those temper tantrums as a psychological tool in matches. Vent some frustration, throw off his opponent, resettle himself and focus, and come back.

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    2. Seamus Gardiner

      Citizen

      In reply to Tim Scanlon

      Yes its a popular theory- maybe because th alternative theory is that he couldnt control his temper.

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  3. Kim Darcy

    Analyst

    This article is an excellent pair to Clive Hamilton's current article about the disaster that has befallen the social sciences in their banishment of the physical/natural sciences.

    "The portrayal of women as emotionally unstable feeds into deeply rooted stereotypes regarding biological difference and how this affects performance in sports."

    Which begs the question....

    "The gendered nature of sport is not just cultural, but structural – it is structured by codified rules of segregation."

    Hmmm...it seems that a lot of that old anti-science sociology is still around.

    "The answer, unfortunately, is quite simple: sexism."

    In the light of what we know, the data we have, and new insights into how social systems are inextricably entwined with physical/natural systems, this sort of answer will surely no longer wash.

    We really need social scientists who are educated and informed by the natural/physical sciences, or as Clive argues the social sciences are finished.

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    1. David Clerke

      Teacher

      In reply to Kim Darcy

      Does that women can no longer use the PMT defence for violent acts? "Joke" " I know a man who died of PMT. How did that happen, his wife shot him!"

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  4. Tim Scanlon

    Debunker

    I seem to remember Federer crying after losing a match a few years ago, he was really in control of his emotions.

    I think there would be less of a divide to latch onto if the women played 5 sets in grandslam events.

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  5. Dale Bloom

    Analyst

    I understand that most of the top female tennis players practice by playing against men, as men make better opponents.

    But it is simply time for women to develop their own sports.

    Whenever men develop a sport, develop the rules, develop the equipment, build the stadiums and sports grounds, and then get sponsorship and get local, state, national and international competition, they are usually accused of being sexist and dominating the sport.

    So it is now time for women to develop their own…

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  6. Russell Hamilton

    Librarian

    The authots ask: "What about all-time greats such as Steffi Graf (22 Grand Slams), Martina Navratilova (18 Grand Slams), Serena Williams (15 Grand Slams) and Monica Seles (9 Grand Slams)?"

    What about Margaret Court ?! - as Wikipedia says "she amassed more Grand Slam titles than any other player in history." (24 Grand Slam titles)

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  7. Laurie Strachan

    Writer/photgrapher

    "The answer, unfortunately, is quite simple:"
    Men do it better.

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    1. Kent Dorfman

      logged in via Twitter

      In reply to Laurie Strachan

      I was watching the women's final and got bored so changed the channel. At the time of my channel change there were 120 points played and over 50 unforced errors. Too many errors and double faults. Not to mention the wailing of Ararenka. A lot of players (both men and women) grunt but this noise is ridiculous. Most women's matches I've seen in recent times have been topsy turvy affairs with players unable to hold serve or keep the ball in play consistently. I think there would be many people who would agree that noise and poor quality play is the reason for a smaller audience, not sexism.

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  8. Gordon Smith

    Private citizen

    In regard to the issue of segregation in sport, if it was not for segregation we would never have heard of court, coolagong, Fraser or Boyle etc. So I fail to see how the author could find any way to see fault in it.
    I personally think that sexism is most seen in the grunting issue. I have no issue with the girls grunting as do nadal and djokovic etc. Perhaps we are still more comfortable with men in combat (for that is what this is) than women in combat making noises of war.
    I am also glad azareka won as the media villification of her has been atrocious.
    By the way Tao ga is French so we must see his comments from the lens of a doifferent culture (world bank affair etc)

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    1. Adam Richards

      Teacher

      In reply to Gordon Smith

      It would be interesting to see if anyone has the stats on how many decibels each 'grunter' generated. It seems there is more to it than simply loudness, though from my quick google search it seems the women come out trumps, in consistency and frequency, as well as loudness. Do men do it? Yes. Are women much worse? Yes. Maybe if they played 5 sets, they wouldn't have the energy to grunt in such a fashion?

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  9. Ross lumbus

    Private Citizen

    OK so just so we get this right, when you say "The answer, unfortunately, is quite simple: sexism." Are you actually making a case here? Or are you just throwing around sexism as a feminist talking point.
    Hey no issue either way but so long as we know.

    When you use one very exreme view from a male player and pretty muh base a whole ideology on that then I guess I am not so moved to leap to your conclusions.

    Does that mean your assertions are wrong? No necessarily but I do not think you make…

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  10. Nick Kenny

    Recruiter

    Would we pay children the same prizemoney? Would millions of us watch the elderly in some "old-age" grand slam? Would we watch the fat camp tennis showdown? No, because they are simply not as good as the fit, 20-35 year old, male top tennis stars. This is not discrimination - if you cannot do something as well as the next person, you are not going to be rewarded equally. End of story.

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    1. Patrick Lowe

      Student

      In reply to Nick Kenny

      But they are rewarded equally, thats the problem. They do less then half the work and get the same return all in the name of equality. Its not fair at all

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  11. Murray Webster

    Forestry-Ecology Consultant/Contractor

    this topic has popped into my thoughts a few times today. I point out a few other relevant observations of this tennis tournament.

    - when one of the male players (I saw the footage but apologies cannot recall the names), was struck in the groin by the tennis ball, the whole crowd erupted with laughter, after a while his female partner was poking him with her racket while he lay on the ground in pain. Does this happen when a women is impacted in the breast or groin? We all know the answer…

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    1. Ross lumbus

      Private Citizen

      In reply to Murray Webster

      I think that the article writer was going to follow up this article and that this was not the totality of what she was trying to say.
      I am firmly convinced of this as she based much of her hypothesis on gender inequity in tennis on the comments of a single and obviously chauvanist male player.
      I am absolutely convinced that she is not trying to establish one male tennis players views as a standard by which the public or all male players, or all men in general or whomever, base their opinions on…

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  12. Laurie Strachan

    Writer/photgrapher

    "Its not that one is better than the other,"

    Well then, why don't they all play in the same tournament? Because there's not a woman who would ever make the top hundred,or even get into the main draw. And that includes Navratilova who is nowhere near "the greatest tennis player of ll time". Arguably? By whom and with what evidence?

    In any case, Tsonga surely had a valid point. Women have monthly cycles and men don't. How can that just be ignored?

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    1. Judith Olney

      Ms

      In reply to Laurie Strachan

      Please quote my sentence in full, "Its not that one is better than the other, just that men and women play differently".

      I understand that some people may enjoy the men playing tennis more than the women, and some may enjoy the women playing tennis more than the men. These views are subjective only, and are no indication of the quality of tennis. Men and women do play differently, there is unequal strength involved, so they do not play each other in tournaments because of this inequality, which is biological and unchangeable.

      For the same reasons we do not expect 12 year olds to play against adults, we expect them to compete against other 12 year olds.

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    2. Ross lumbus

      Private Citizen

      In reply to Judith Olney

      I think you are right.
      I think that the article is certainly not that strong or convincing and th feminist view pretty unsubstantiated.
      The thing is, I do not necessarily think it is wrong. I think that the argument was poor and not well backed and so on.
      As to your position that, yes these differences are not necessarily worse and that it makes for a different type of gameplay..absolutely.
      As I mentioned earlier, I do not think that many could argue that mens gymnastics is a powerful mix of…

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    3. Judith Olney

      Ms

      In reply to Ross lumbus

      Its interesting that so many people have a problem with the vocalisations of tennis players, particularly the female ones. Tennis is primarily a visual sport, (like most sports), and its pretty easy to mute the sound and not miss a thing. I often do this with cricket, as I find the commentators irritating in the extreme, with their endless waffle.

      I think that as a society we are still influenced be many outdated ideas, such as the concept of what constitutes "unladylike" behaviour, or what value…

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    4. Ross lumbus

      Private Citizen

      In reply to Judith Olney

      A lot of what you say, I do agree with.
      More and more these days I find myself if not at odds with societal norms, simply not understanding them and being mildly amused by them.
      So I can not contest things like what is or is not unladylike or not.
      You are also right that there is competitiveness in televising sports and at the moment it seems to favour the mens teenis in respect to what is deemed better viewing between men and women.
      The crux of this articles seems to infer a causal relationship…

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    5. Judith Olney

      Ms

      In reply to Ross lumbus

      I also agree with much of what you are saying Ross. I think, rather than a lack of education, the reason people fail to appreciate many different forms of sport, music, etc, is simply a lack of exposure during their formative years. There is probably a sexist element to this issue as well, but as you say, the author of this article has failed to show a causative link. Sexism is IMO an underlying factor, inherent in our whole society, and sport simply reflects this, sometimes glaringly.

      I found…

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    6. Ross lumbus

      Private Citizen

      In reply to Judith Olney

      Judith at this point it looks like you write a more compelling critique than the author of the article and do actually provide food for thought.
      I personally take issue with sexism and find it uncomfortable. The more sexist the more repellant. (Unless of course it is overdone as a means to mock itself),
      Feminism too, is not all good. It is not all bad by any means (and certainly one can not view its role is promoting women and in addressing gender inequalities).
      I view it like I view religion. If people tell me they are religious, I am wary. People tell me they are feminist, I am wary.
      As to gender equality? I am a strong believer in empowering females (women and girls). I do not think it detracts from men to do so. I would like to think that any endevour that women take part in, should not be mocked or derided.
      But I have rather selfish reasons for wanting and being supportive of gender equality.

      I have a daughter.

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    7. Ross lumbus

      Private Citizen

      In reply to Ross lumbus

      * "Feminism too, is not all good. It is not all bad by any means (and certainly one can not view its role is promoting women and in addressing gender inequalities). "

      * Sorry rather that ougt to have read:

      Feminism too, is not all good. It is not all bad by any means (and certainly one can not view its role is promoting women and in addressing gender inequalities as insignificant).

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    8. Robert Attila

      Business Analyst

      In reply to Judith Olney

      The label of Sexism is thrown around far too liberally, so to speak, & without substance, probably due to a complete lack of understanding of the definition of sexism, or any bigotry for that matter.

      The feminist/socialist logic presented so often would label my preference for pizza over beer as bigotry; or preference for German over Australian/Asian cars as racist... or my preference to watch males in tennis for their athletic superiority as sexist, or to watch attractive females play as…

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    9. Judith Olney

      Ms

      In reply to Robert Attila

      Rob, I think that men and women should both play 3 set games of tennis, this would remove any problem with the payment for work argument.

      I did not say that people who prefer to watch men play tennis, are sexist. I also did not say that preference for something means you are bigoted against something else. I was discussing appreciating that men and women do things differently, but not necessarily better than the other sex.

      If you cannot see that our society comes from a long history of racism, sexism and un-earnt privilege, then I can only assume that you have never read any history, or have chosen to be ignorant of history to suit your own ideology, or cognitive bias.

      To acknowledge our history, is to address oppression and inequality in our current society. This is a good thing.

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    10. Murray Webster

      Forestry-Ecology Consultant/Contractor

      In reply to Judith Olney

      I think me should play however many games that all the players, organisers, sponsors figure out works best. Rather than having politically correct prescriptions forced upon them.

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    11. Judith Olney

      Ms

      In reply to Murray Webster

      I agree Murray, I however do not see anyone trying to force any politically correct prescriptions onto any player organiser or sponsor in regards to tennis.

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    12. Judith Olney

      Ms

      In reply to Ross lumbus

      Ross, I too have a daughter and a grand daughter, and again agree with your points.

      Feminism, for me, is about equal opportunity, and removing discrimination based on gender.

      I also think that practicalities and biological facts, (not nonsense about women being overly emotional because of hormones and other such pseudo scientific rubbish), need to be taken into account, and seen as differences, not weaknesses.

      There are physical differences between men and women, and these differences come into play with many sports, which is why we see segregation in sports. Its not discrimination to expect people to compete against those of equal strength and ability. After all seeing equals compete is what sport is about.

      Its great to see that there are men, like yourself, that support equality for women and girls, and are not threatened by empowering females.

      I think that the definition of feminism has been highjacked somewhat over the years, and this is sad.

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    13. Murray Webster

      Forestry-Ecology Consultant/Contractor

      In reply to Judith Olney

      That is all very sensible Judith. And I totally agree.

      The heading for this article is

      "Azarenka, Tsonga and the sexism that chokes women’s tennis"

      A bit extreme perhaps?

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    14. Ross lumbus

      Private Citizen

      In reply to Murray Webster

      More than a bit.
      Depending on their intent, they either did very well or extremely badly.
      If they wanted to promote a sensible argument, they failed miserably.
      If they wanted to display intellect and an ability to show their expertise in sociology and their understanding of society, they failed.
      If they wanted to use this as a platform for feeminist commentary, they failed.

      If they wanted to use this as a chance to bring a lot of people with different opinions in to debate on this, then I tip my hat

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    15. Judith Olney

      Ms

      In reply to Murray Webster

      In the context of what Tsonga said, I don't think that calling those comments sexist was extreme at all, the comments were indeed sexist. I don't think that taking the views and words of one player as indicative of the views of all tennis players, was a good call though. One sexist tennis player doesn't make the game sexist, or any other players, this was an extreme position to take.

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    16. Robert Attila

      Business Analyst

      In reply to Judith Olney

      Hi Judith, much of my letter was aimed at comments i've heard for ages & only some specifically at your comments, plus some general observations. I should have specified better, my apologies. ;) Also, pls excuse my less than adequate writing below as i am in a hurry to get on with other work.

      3 or 5 sets is a difficult Q&A since some games r more exciting over 3 but others over 5. Though if women play against men then 3 would be the better choice.

      Generally speaking: to achieve true fairness…

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    17. Judith Olney

      Ms

      In reply to Robert Attila

      Rob, you seem to have some very strange ideas as to what sexism actually is. You also seem to have quite a narrow and unrealistic view of history. Your ideological bias seems to be blinding you to reality, both of today, and historically.

      BTW please provide examples of your so called feminist doctrine, as a feminist, I have never come across any set of rules or doctrines that feminists are supposed to follow. Feminists are simply individuals, both male and female, that believe in equality of opportunity for women and girls, without discrimination, and I would add, in my own personal view as a feminist, I would also include all human beings. I believe in equality of opportunity for all humans, regardless of their gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, age or beliefs.

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    18. Robert Attila

      Business Analyst

      In reply to Judith Olney

      My ideas about sexism, Judith, r largely based on what i hear feminists & socialists say or propose. When they say women r equal to men yet still want special favors i immediately hear hypocrisy.
      My research into history was for curiosity & enjoyment rather than any political agenda, thus why i havent seen sexism mentioned in my travels...

      Seems like some feminists want the same rights as men but with none of the responsibilities or hard work attached to those rights. In fact at times they want…

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    19. Judith Olney

      Ms

      In reply to Robert Attila

      Rob, I have observed no minority group demanding a free ride, or any feminists either.

      I see no point arguing against someone's personal preference, so wont be addressing yours.

      I do think that sexism is systemic in our society, and that there is still a very long way to go in addressing this issue. The same as I see systemic racism and other forms of bigotry and discrimination. These issues have been a part of our society for so long, that they are easy to overlook, or dismiss, as you have done.

      I think the incident the author wrote about, was sexism, even if it was only by one player. It has however opened the door for a wider discussion, A good thing really :)

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    20. Robert Attila

      Business Analyst

      In reply to Judith Olney

      I think we tend to agree on the main point, of fairness is a must for all, etc. Maybe semantics r confusing things or our definition of 'fair' or 'equal'. Some people think it means a free ride. Eg some people think they r entitled to social security, but they arent, its a gift from the tax payer, not a right.

      I definitely believe we need a much more specific definition of sexism, racism, etc than what i see in Wikipedia for instance. After all, everyone discriminates every single day, when we…

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    21. Judith Olney

      Ms

      In reply to Robert Attila

      I disagree with your idea of what sexism is Rob. I also disagree that everyone has the same basic rights, clearly there are many cases where groups and individuals are not accorded the same rights as others, and are discriminated against because of ethnicity, gender, age etc, (all factors that the person has no control over).

      I have experienced discrimination based on the fact that I am a woman, in employment, and other situations, not because I could not perform any required tasks to a required…

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    22. Robert Attila

      Business Analyst

      In reply to Judith Olney

      I just lost 25 min of typing due to bad keyboard layout. Sigh!

      To summarise, sigh,....

      1) The laws in Aus disagree with you Judith, everyone has equal rights. But if people dont file a complaint then thats not society's fault or problem. I would suggest the Aboriginal section of society is the only example of coping societal racism. Women certainly arent IMO. People have to walk their talk, not expect things to be handed to them on a silver platter. An employer shouldnt care what we say but…

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  13. Venise Alstergren

    Venise Alstergren is a Friend of The Conversation.

    photographer, blogger.

    Jo-Wilfred Tsonga may have a point. After all, the way so many female tennis players are screeching every time they hit the ball-and being allowed by supine umpires-might indeed be a sign of emotional immaturity, and/or overt cheating. It's an arguable point as to whether or not this behaviour is part of the menstrual cycle but, I am inclined to think they do it to put their opponent at a considerable disadvantage. Ditto because the umpires (female) appear to lack the guts-or risk their jobs with…

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    1. Venise Alstergren

      Venise Alstergren is a Friend of The Conversation.

      photographer, blogger.

      In reply to Venise Alstergren

      PS: As for gender segregation, ha! Women lack the strength of men, in case nobody has noticed. They have much shorter matches, and have the best times of the day to play. They take forever to play their matches. These faults combined with the screeching of Maria Sharapova and/or, what appear to be, the continual orgasms of Victoria Azarenka make it intolerable for me to go to a women's tennis match. Nor will I watch them on TV. I'm damned sure I'm not the only female in my court-pun intended.

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  14. Bruce Byrnes

    logged in via email @accruper.com.au

    I can hear the creaks and grunts from here as Simone De Beauvoir attempts a backhand - A frenchman........surely not!

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  15. Kim Darcy

    Analyst

    "The portrayal of women as emotionally unstable feeds into deeply rooted stereotypes regarding biological difference and how this affects performance in sports."

    1. Actually it feeds into the FACT of 'biological difference and how this affects performance in sports'.

    Any attendant 'stereotypes' follow from this biological fact..

    "The gendered nature of sport is not just cultural, but structural – it is structured by codified rules of segregation."

    2. I don't know what you mean by 'gendered nature of sport', let alone 'structural'. But I am willing to bet this sentence could read more clearly by incorporating my point 1. above.

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  16. Gillian Ray-Barruel

    Senior Research Assistant at Griffith University

    Regarding sexism in tennis:

    During the Williams vs. Sharapova match, the channel 7 commentators asked the audience to vote on which of the women player's outfits they preferred...

    The saddest part is, they voted.

    Why don't I get to vote on the men's outfits? Roger, I don't like the grey shirt, buddy. You look better in blue.

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    1. Ross lumbus

      Private Citizen

      In reply to Gillian Ray-Barruel

      I think that is, at the very least, pitifully laughable.
      It suggests to me a sinking to a low point in commentary, like the Cricket commentators so often do when things are a bit slow and things are quiet or uninteresting. Better subject than talking about seagulls.
      I think that they should certainly discuss men's tennis fashions...except for the fact that, that is even more boring than womens fashions and on par with the seagul commentary.

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  17. Robert Attila

    Business Analyst

    Karon & Ramon, you two obviously have very poor debating skills & have no idea what sexism is.

    You r correct in one sense, there is sexism in tennis, but its directed against men. They are paid less on a per set basis & are higher skilled.

    You want women to be seen the same as men? Then put the women into the same comp as men. Women will never figure in the top 100 but at least they will be competing fairly.

    Why do sociologists throw the 'sexism' label around at any & every opportunity?

    Feminists, if anything, r sexist. They claim women need preferential treatment over men. 'Affirmative action', etc. Yet equal opportunity is about being treated the same, not better than the opposite sex, or other groups.

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  18. Chris Lloyd

    logged in via Facebook

    Tsonga made a stupid comment. the authors might have gone on to link this to french culture, or african mysogny. But no. They make a series of unsubstantiated assertions about tennis itself (or is it the fans who choose ot watch Jokovish over Azarenko) as sexist.

    Womens tennis already gets more attention than it deserves. Not a single woman player would make the second round in the men's draw. I so still enjoy a good women's final but not as much as the men's. I also enjoy some events in the para-olympics. But the real olympics is just way more entertaining. No doubt the authors would say that this makes me a brute who has no sympathy for the disabled.

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  19. Margaret McCarthy

    Masters student

    I believe that either women play 5 sets or men play 3. I believe in equal pay for equal effort. I also believe that if women's tennis was less of a fashion parade it would be taken more seriously.
    I have been involved in equestrian sports where men and women compete against each other. Much skill and courage is required to be a successful show jumper or three day eventer. And the women are right up there world wide.
    So I love to see woman competing successfully and seriously which we now thankfully see in many areas of life these days.

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    1. Robert Attila

      Business Analyst

      In reply to Margaret McCarthy

      I agree with much of what you have said, since women can compete in areas that r non-strength & speed related (for example). And i like to see both sexes in different sports.

      However 'effort' is irrelevant in respect to what someone should be paid or can win. You may not have meant to say 'effort' so this may not apply to your intent.

      Pay in the real world is predominantly based on results less so on effort. Effort is (or should be) considered & rewarded, but its not the primary goal, results…

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    1. Kris McCracken

      logged in via Facebook

      In reply to Emma de Campo

      Obviously this is an inherently subjective thing, but I for the life of me why anyone would prefer to watch (for example) Michael Chang vs Thomas Muster over Graf vs Navratilova. Different people are allowed to have different aesthetic tastes, so I'm bemused by all this "but men are better" nonsense. What does 'better' mean in the context of a tennis match?

      Do we pick something arbitrary like fastest serve? Well, with all due respect to the guy Samuel Groth (#196 in the world) is unlikely to draw a crowd like Serena Williams, even if he can serve at 57 kmph faster. Shouldn't her rewards reflect that?

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    2. Laurie Strachan

      Writer/photgrapher

      In reply to Kris McCracken

      'I'm bemused by all this "but men are better" nonsense. What does 'better' mean in the context of a tennis match?'

      It's really quite simple. It means you win. The best men will always beat the best women at tennis, playing by the rules of the game. Therefore they are better at the game.

      If you have evidence that disproves this, please let us know.

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    3. Kris McCracken

      logged in via Facebook

      In reply to Laurie Strachan

      Since when has modern professional sport simply been about winning? Thomas Muster was a consistent winner, but did he draw $$$?

      One might argue that it is just as much about bums on seats, viewers and advertising revenue. Only the most naive could possibly believe it's as simple as winning and losing. Anna Kournikova never won a singles tournament in her entire career, yet I've never seen crowds like those drawn to her matches from '98 through '00. Yevgeny Kafelnikov and Gustavo Kuerten were both world number ones and never drew anything like the crowd and media attention.

      If women are selling the tickets and generating revenue, they deserve a fair cut of the payoff.

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    4. Robert Attila

      Business Analyst

      In reply to Kris McCracken

      I agree, while men are superior players ultimately though its about bums on seats. Capitalism dictates that you pay the most to whomever draws the crowds.
      In which case, payments would end up going to the most exciting players of both sexes.

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  20. Susan Kirwan

    Paralegal

    Why not just give the game of tennis itself, the recognition it deserves. So many lose sight and assign their observations to the gender on court,
    red-tape and politics of the sport. Why not just actually engage in the perfection of strokes many tennis players exhibit.

    These players have spent countless hours, weeks, months and years reaching their potential and then step out on court allowing us to view something quite special and extraordinary. Its then unfortunate to see the negativity that occurs, it really is.

    Susan

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  21. Robert Attila

    Business Analyst

    From:
    Dale Bloom

    Analyst

    I can remember making a number of complaints to the Sex Discrimination Commission regards sex discrimination carried out by a feminist, and each time I was told that the sex discrimination had to affect me personally before Sex Discrimination Commission would act.

    I can remember making a number of complaints to various Universities regards sex discrimination carried out by a feminist employed by the University, and each time I was told that the feminist had a right to their opinion.

    At no time did the Sex Discrimination Commission or a University ever say that the sex discrimination did not occur, and in fact some Universities actually acknowledged that the feminist had carried out sex discrimination.

    But each group had their ways of allowing the feminist to carry out sex discrimination.

    So the discrimination laws can be manipulated and abused to suit whatever purposes.

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  22. Andrey Panevin

    University Student

    I think the idea of sexism within the tennis world has been over- intellectualised and clumsily put down to things like fashion, chauvinistic Frenchmen and whether or not men's or women's tennis is more exciting. Male tennis players play on a higher physical level than the women (due to physiology etc), it is therefore silly to try and find a sociological reason as to why there are more viewers and more money involved with the men's form of the game. However if one was to pay attention to the crowd…

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