Dream on Marilyn! It wont ever happen in your remaining life time.

Too many Australians recognize the potential threat to our sovereignty of not keeping illegal immigrants contained if not stopped.

What is the point of it though Greg, we are not allowed to lock up any other group of people in the world without cause.

I do not understand what makes you hate innocent people with such abuse but you make me vomit.

That was meant to be 'rescind'.

So if we pull out of the refugee convention because we are asked to help 0.001% of the world's refugees that will solve the problem will it?

What a silly, nasty brat you are.

Personally I think people like you need your delusions of Australian grandeur seen to by a good psychiatrist!

The fact is that Australia is not in any position to save hundreds of millions of 'deserving' refugees around the globe without selling out the future of our children and grand children.

If we do not treat illegal arrivals with a cold heart then the current several thousand per year will surely blow out to unimagineable levels.

And when it does go bad I have little doubt that you, Peter Ormande, will be among the first the complain the loudest to the government when your life style is severely impacted!

As I have said, you people are less interested in 'saving' refugees than you are in winning a socialist political argument on and in the safety of the home front!

You short sighted dim wits will not counternance what will really solve the refugee problem in the long term - third world fertility control!

And here, as if in answer to a trumpet call, we have the evidence of the problem referred to above... the need for mental health interventions outside the razor wire. Ugly isn't it? Not sure it's treatable actually.

How does one cure hate, fear and militant ignorance?

"The fact that it isn't and hasn't worked takes me back to good old Albert Einstein who defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. "

That about sums you up Peter!

In your case you are labouring under the delusion that immigration of a few tens of thousands of refugees to Australia is a viable solution to global poverty and refugees.

I think Dr Albert Bartlett from Colarado is right about people like you.

You are basically inumerate as to the exponential function, as it applies to population dynamics, and the sheer scale of the refugee problem.

As a result you seek to solve the problem with futile pin prick strategies that will cause future Australians major problems while having little or no impact on the refugee problem now or in the future.

Greg

Indeed. I advocate we increase our intake to 35,000 per year, BUT only under the same conditions Fraser did - handpicked from refugee camps in our own region.

OK - let's say NO LIMIT then ... it's in defence of our sovereignty innit?

Now would you like some actual facts on how much it costs to settle refugee families in Australia, as opposed to locking them up, sending them home and the rest?

Have a read of this: http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/research/_pdf/economic-civic-social-contributions-refugees-humanitarian-entrants-literature-review.pdf

How long do folks require handouts to get on their feet? How much is being spent on the Vietnamese boat people and refugees we settled here during the 1980's? They - or their kids - are paying your pensions and doles, building our schools, funding our hospitals.

Immigration - yes even refugees - are a net benefit to the Australian economy and society over time - pay-back period is between 5 and 10 years - and by any normal set of a criteria - accepting a reasonable number is an excellent investment. Especially refugees actually - off to school, off to uni and grabbing any opportunity they can reach. Just what we need.

But you're right - there are far far too many people here - buying our old cars and houses, driving up the price of our groceries and making our power bills more expensive. But refugees only count for a small fraction of that increase.

So let's get serious. Start with deporting all the whingeing 10 pound poms and all their offspring. Let's send Adelaide back. And, if that's not enough and the cost of living continues to rise, perhaps deporting the first born of each and every Australian family - don't care where - NZ perhaps.

Now speaking of NZ do you realise how many of them have settled here? As at June 30 last there were an estimated 647,863 Kiwis burrowing into the landscape here - without a visa over the last few years - no wonder our power bills are going through the roof! Send them back. Tow them to the territorial limit and cut them adrift! We've got send them a clear message. We want floating bodies in the Bay of Islands perhaps then they'll stop. http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/17nz.htm

Incidentally I'm not making any assumptions about the current levels of refugees, boat arrivals and displaced persons staying there - far from it. This global problem will only increase as climate change and economic collapse - not to mention brutal governments and war drive folks out into the world.

So whatever numbers you might be thinking of regarding increased "message centres" - raise it by a few powers.

See it's not me wasting money and welfare - it's you lot squandering valuable human and financial resources sending messages. Money spent settling people and giving them a few opportunities isn't a waste Greg - it's an investment. In your future.

On second thought you might be right - maybe that is a waste.

Greg, I can live with that. I really do think we can and SHOULD do more to ease this appalling misery. However, the UN has long past being the best way to achieve that. Nearly 200 "nations"? Please. How many of them can even afford to fly their ambassador to New York?OTOH, I also think we should use our money and muscle to drop a nuke of bleach on these hell-holes and treat the problem at the source.

"I also think we should use our money and muscle to drop a nuke of bleach on these hell-holes and treat the problem at the source"

Personally I favour some sort of genetically engineered biological vector that renders males infertile but causes no other symptoms. At least that would be some what humane even if equally contraversial.

Greg,

I don't see how your refusing to answer how much you want to spend on refugee discouragement ... that by impplication there is no limit on how much you are willing to devote to imprisoning folks - is a concession on my part. I think you are confused.

Or am I wrong? How much would you regard as suitable?

I'm simply pointing out the obvious Greg. That the costs of our deterrence program are down to you and folks like you. And it is complete and utter waste of money.

Not sure what sort of medical scientist you were Greg but presumably you were drawn to medicine because at least in part you were once wanting to help people.

When did you decide to abandon the caring profession Greg and devote yourself to spreading pavers and box hedging all over the place? Good choice. The "lanscaping" on gated communities is really big business.

And this is the sort of ignorant redneck mouthbreather being courted by Bowen. That's the real sadness here. Not for long I suspect.

Enough. Anyone with an interest in facts, evidence or something better than "blah, blah, blah" to contribute to the conversation is most welcome.

We are now in an era when over population in the third world is of such a magnitude that it is posing a major and increasing threat to the political and social stability in the west.

If we allow them to destabilise us through short sighted and foolish charity then there will end up being be NO refuge for ANYONE on this planet and all of the human races gains in science, liberty and equality etc will be lost.

This has happened before to preceding civilisations and there is absolutely no reason why it cannot also happen to us.

We can offer the third world the help it needs, but it should NOT be through immigration!

Greg,

Now this is what an enthusiasm for computer programming does for one ... tends to give one a rather mechanistic approach to solving complex problems.

So how do you think it will save the planet by wrapping Australia up in razor wire and hanging a "go away" sign on the gate? Do you seriously believe that Australia can go it alone and prosper in a collapsing world?

Oh I forget - aerial spraying and sterilisation of the Third World will solve it. Yep - there's the bedrock now - a good solid granite of race hate, prejudice and inhumanity. And don't say you're not a racist Greg - I've read your posts on places like Topix.

Bigger problem than you might think - and certainly a bigger problem than will be addressed by selfish parochialism. Unless of course you do a line in fortifying the landscape.

We are looking into the chasm between training and education... a yawning abyss of ignorance and fear.

If Australia can't provide enough of its own resources to sustain our domestic consumption and cannot buy them at a fair price from third world countries, then WE need to reduce our consumption.

E.G. Do away with large plasma tvs and central air conditioners.

"My aim is to try and prevent Australa from suffering the same fate as much of the rest of the world will as human over population reaches crisis point and wars and local conflicts break out across the globe over access to food and water."

If that means we need to arm ourselves then so be it!

Peter clearly you JUST DON"T GET IT.

When we get to the stage of wars over food and water China, for example, will cease to exist as a nation and degenerate into something resembling the feudal kingdoms of afghanistan.

The french revolution and the temporary collapse of central government was in large part due to mass starvation. No government on earth can be sustained for long if the masses are starving and dieing of dehydration. We have also seen this occur Egypt in recent months. That revolution was also in part driven by lack of affordable food for the masses.

The threat to Australia will not come from foreign powers but from hordes of would be immigrants trying to escape from the kaos and thus reduce Australia to similar kaos if we do not contain it.

Perhaps we will fail miserably Peter and end up in the same kaos as the rest of ther world anyway. But we owe to are children and grand children.

So what is your solution Peter. Just give up and follow the global crowd into anarchy because you are afraid of upsetting the sensibilities of other countries???? That is simply not acceptible!

Immmigration of the third world masses to Australia WILL NOT and WILL NEVER prevent global anarchy when the global population exceeds avaibale food and water suppies.

You preferred solution is a NON-SOLUTION, and the sooner you FACE that inconveninet reality, along with the rest of your lobby, the more hope we might have of acctually mitigating the building crisis.

PS.... now here's a serious bit of prophetic insight:

No Man Is An Island

No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend's were.
Each man's death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.

John Donne

Not lecturing so much as hoping to make you understand that razor wire and detention centres is not a solution - is not an effective response - to what is a much much bigger problem than obsessing about this trickle of boats coming here.

I don't actually claim to have a solution to the population problem. Not on my own. But I do know that it will not be solved with concerntration camps, razor wire and forced sterilisations you advocate.

We don't even have a problem yet. Ask Italy what a refugee problem looks like - they clock up our annual intake every weekend.

This is a global problem Greg - a problem that confronts all developed countries and countries of safety. And it will get worse while the underlying pressures, violence and hatreds fuelling this global movement continue unchecked.

It will also get worse while there are folks running about suggesting things like spraying third world countries with sterilising agents.

The bottom line Greg, underneath all the sperficially ecological hand-wringing - is that you just don't like foreigners. You don't like the fact that they speak funny languages, cost us money, wear funny clothes, worship strange gods ... they're different. As you say on other sites, you'd never employ one.

If you were solely concerned by population and carrying capacity you'd be devoting an equal or greater level of vitriol and abuse at the 650,000 or so Kiwis who have come in. They don't get a mention.

No it's folks on boats - your so called "illegals"- that are causing all the trouble. Offending our sovereignty, entering "illegally" and that we should just send them all back sdomewhere on a fleet of hired cargo ships.

It is absolutely marginal what we do here in terms of numbers. But it sends a signal to the rest of the world how we should respond and what needs to be done.

As you recognise, even if we succeed in "stopping the boats", closing the airports and excluding ourselves from the UN Convention, shut the windows and nail the door shut, the problem will continue and increase in future. Your "solution" leads inevitably to a Quixotic battle against the rest of the planet. It is deeply silly and irrational.

You might not like that, but read back over your comments here and see the future you are promising, by your own admission. See if you think it's worth it.

I suggest that if you are genuinely concerned by these matters of population and displaced people that you do some reading and try and understand this issue in its global context rather than thinking we can "go it alone" and turn our back on the world.

Meantime, less time on the laptop. Get some real live friends rather than just fulminating on line. Get some hobbies. More sunshine. Go for a walk every day. Sleep more. Fear less. There are some quite OK anti-anxiety meds about (avoid Zyprexa).

As the heading of this article states: Christmas Island detention centre sees spike in demand for mental health services. And the great bulk of that demand is outside the wire. It's the folks that build them that have the biggest health problems I think.

No Greg - this is not about two "extremes" ... there is only one extreme here I'm afraid. It's not me talking about the imminent sterilisation of Third World countries and sending every refugee in Australia back to wherever.

Try not to watch Mad Max three times a week ... it's actually a work of fiction Greg, rather than a political analysis or prophesy.

Try and develop some empathy, sympathy and understanding. Try and stop kicking the cat and resist that temptation to be setting the dog alight.

More Gandhi, less Goebbels.

No Greg,

The last time we did anything like I'd be advocating was the global response to the exodus of refugees from Vietnam between 1978 and the mid '80s. That worked quite well actually didn't it?

And of course before that there was the resettlement program for dsplaced persons and refugees following WW2.

Global response to a global problem Greg.

Not open borders - that would not directly assist refugees. But providing a safe haven to people in real danger, who have no homes to return to... very different thing. And even then there are limits to how many can be accepted in any year. But a lot more than we currently take.

And the trick is - the thing that worked before - is to start working with the neighbours and working with receiving countries to establish an efficient program of international resettlement. If you'd be interestedin having a look at what I'd be advocating have a google for anything on refugees from John Menadue who ran the Vietnamese transfer program from our end.

But of course this is only a response to the immediate circumstances... getting people out of camps and out of danger. But longer term it requires real strategies from the west to end the hate, war and brutality that causes this misery and anguish.

It's a long way from open borders. Unlike the literal open border program we currently run for the Kiwis.

I reckon priority in this lifeboat goes to folks who really need it and have nowhere else. They make the best citizens anyway. Always have.

But as for global population and the problems of exponential growth colliding with a warming climate and dwindling resources, that is going to take much more time and a lot of creative thinking - mostly addressing viable economic growth and education - the only factors that have seen dramatic reductions in birth rates anywhere.

But try not to be too frightened by it. Look at what has worked historically and work out how we can get there. Not easy, but beats digging foxholes and preparing for armageddon.

"Today the global population is headed toward 8 billion and Australia's population is about 21 million."

Correction....

The global population is headed for 9-10 billion by 2050.

There is and will be considerably more refugees to deal with than the end of the vietnam ware generated in 1978!

I'm sorry Greg, I made a mistake.

I thought you might be interested in a discussion. Maybe even learning something. Maybe putting up some facts rather than these hysterical squeals and squeaks.

Apparently not. You know all about it already. Too frightened to think. To selfish to understand.

Good luck making your air raid shelters and getting that aerial spraying off the ground. But I think I';d be sticking to those sites concerned you like with why white women like sex with black men etc... more your target audience there I think.

Let's just say Greg that attitudes like yours give the Taliban a good name and encourage a lot of our neighbours to regard Australians as ignorant boorish fools.

PS work on the spelling. Your site is filled with very basic errors repeated throughout. I means you don't read, Greg. But that apparently doesn't stop you knowing all about it, including the future.

Now I'm off to finish chatting with some rather frightened folks in Pakistan. I'll try explaining how you are suffering here. Good night. Say hi to Mel Gibson for me.

And if I was the same age as now in 1978 with the veitnamese exodous I may have had a totally different attitude given the very different global and Australian circumstances.

But it just aint 1978 any more Peter. Global and Australian circumstances have changed since 1978 and policies that might have been appropriate then are not necessarily appropriate now.

And it is rather amusing that you imeciles inevitably reach for the racist slur in an attempt to trump any views contrary to your own.

It speaks of nothing more than intellectual laziness!

And unfortunately for you I am totally impervious to your racist slurs!