As this has yet to be removed, I'll address it again. On that note I am thoroughly disgusted with the inaction of moderators here. It appears that while the actions of priests and pedophiles trivilaising and villainising victims for their own ends is abhorrent; commenters doing the same thing to survivors (and thereby abusing them all over again) is completely acceptable. The moderator/s responsible for this should be thoroughly ashamed of their behaviour.

Firstly, what I was stating was both scientific and historical fact in response to your using the ordeal with I and other victims of child abuse which Catholic institutions covered up, as an excuse to go on a Catholic bashing tirade. As a survivor and a Catholic, I don't appreciate such distasteful opportunism on your part in the slightest.

Secondly, if you'd actually bothered to read the post in question you would have seen that I was making an additional post to deal with the issues at play.

Thirdly, had you bothered to read said additional post, you would have seen that not only do I condemn what has happened, I myself am a survivor of child abuse in a Catholic high school which was covered.

Fourthly, your response to this was to accuse me of being at best, a child abuse enabler and at worst, imply I was a pedophile myself. Your response, which fits into the "little monsters" view of child abuse survivors, is one of the main reasons why very few of us who are victims come forward and why so many of us, including myself have been suicidal, if not suicided.

You sheik in horror at what Bishops and Priests do to twist circumstances to their own ends. However your response to me here is no better than theirs in similar situation - both you and they are merely twisting facts opportunistically. Now you might claim that you weren't aware of that; however that ignores the fact that the facts were right in front of you.

I'd suggest you should be ashamed of yourself, but considering your utterly depraved actions here, I honestly wonder if you're capable of feeling it.

Is that really the case though or is it merely the result of the media focusing on the Catholic Church? With the exception of Peter Hollingworth, there hasn't really been much focus on any child sex claims that concern other denominations or secular organisations. Alot of this is going to be driven by the fact that the media loves scandal because it sells papers and that makes Catholic child sex abuse stories more juicy than elsewhere.

One case which comes to mind is an ex of mine who was one of a string of child sex victims of an incredibly well connected and rich Church of Christ Pastor in South Australia who had sexually abused several underage girls, covered the whole thing up to the point where police weren't able to charge him, and to my knowledge, the story got absolutely no national press coverage. That's just me talking from personal experience. How many other people out there have similar personal experiences of non-Catholic based coverups that noone really cared about?

Now maybe this RC, with a focus on exposing it all across the board does actually find that instances have been higher in the Catholic Church than other institutions and secular institutions. However when our public perceptions are primarily informed by the media, then those perceptions become questionable and problematic.

That's the problem with getting your information from an industry that sells sensationalism. Often times they'll be complicit in what gets buried on the grounds of "what sells".

"What is quite fascinating is the Roman Catholic Church's attitude to abortion.
Is it rabidly anti-abortion to produce single parent more vulnerable children to feed its priests appetites?"

No, what has cased single parent families largely has been the secular destruction of both the family (no fault divorce) and the community (the "village" environment that many towns and suburbs used to have is virtually non-existant in most places these days), coupled with complete moral relativism, to the point where we have no problem with the brutal dismemberment of children the moment they can be dehumanised as "undesirable" along eugenic lines.

It's highly "convenient" that you ignore the complete lack of social support our destroyed communities don't give single parents to look for an easy, cheap shot.

"Is the Roman Catholic Church intrinsically misogynist?"

Considering the person of the highest standing in the Catholic Church is a woman and that Australia's only saint is a woman; this is a laughable notion.

"Or does it attract misogynists and perpetuate misogyny for its own ends?"

Define misogyny though - are you talking about it's original meaning, or do you mean it's modern meaning where it has become a shaming tactic and slur directed at any man women don't like or any man who dares to question the deeply flawed agenda and ideology of feminism (I challenge anyone who wishes to dispute that to actually read works like the SCUM Manifesto). Even modern gender academics such as Tosh, Dudink and Hagemann have completely debunked "patriarchy" as a zeitgeist based fallacy.

"Will the Roman Catholic Church cease denying the obvious?"

Which is what exactly? That there has been institutionalised child abuse? The Church has already taken measures to circumvent that in newer generations of priests in at least the past 10 years and every other Catholic I know welcomes this Royal commission in the hopes that it will clear out the rest of the rot.

The catholic church has done much good and it's a shame that this good-will may evaporate completely from this process. However, there is now a widespread public perception that there has been an institutionalised cover-up of child abuse.

Not one or two rogues, but a consistent, historic and contemporary stream of victims. I hope for the sake of the catholic church that this inquiry is genuinely welcomed and there is no attempt whatsoever to plead that "everyone else is doing it, why concentrate on us?"

That would only confirm a culture of denial.

Neil, and your point is? Let me answer for you. A nothing comment

Professor Collins. Trolling faculty. Now... back to the debate - the big issue will be the inviolable sanctum of the confessional. What comes first? God or state? I'm not a Christian, but wouldn't god want a bad priest outed? Surely?

Raz, it's not as problematic as you might think. For true confession to take place, Catholic theology would argue that penance would be a trip to the police station confessing to the crime in this case. As the Bible says; give to God what belongs to God and give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar. That actually creates an interesting point of debate in canon law which I suspect will also be debated in the wake of this.

Cheers andrew. I understand what you say, but i would argue that if child abuse occurs in any institution, then that is a matter for both god and ceaser (to use your reference). I believe if a priest hears of child abuse in a confessional then they have both a civil and moral obligation to report that to all authority. Spiritual and legal.

The problem there Raz is that Canon law is just like any law. Do you know for example that due to a bad precedent in US Law, corporate entities are regarded as having human rights - not the individuals in the corporation, but the corporation itself. Now imagine how messy trying to undo that would be at this point in time - forgetting about corporate interests throwning spanners in the works.

It's a fine line though and I agree it needs to be dealt with, but the issue is balance. Remember that contrary to popular opinion, everything within Canon Law tends to be based in scripture. The question is going to be - how do you address the issue without committing heresy. I'm not saying it can't be done, but much like any other legal system, you can't just change things with the click of a finger. Perhaps a Vatican 3 is needed....

I think the problem largely is that the Church was originally set up to deal with a somewhat localised area (europe) and that as a result, it hasn't really been equipped to deal with a much larger, globalised demographic.

Here's the thing - people are critical of Pell, yet Pell has no more authority over other Diocese than say, the NSW Deputy Police Commissioner has over say, Senior Detectives in the Victorian Police Force.

The next heirarchical step is effectively the Congregation of Bishops in Rome. Now it's tempting to say that it's all collusion, but when you're effectively jumping from what amounts to local governance to global governance with no intermediaries; then there's a serious issue with under-governance and the question must be asked of just how much Rome actually hears about.

I think moving forwards

Realised I'd posted before finishing my point. What I meant to say was:

I think moving forward, the solution would be to establish regional dicasteries to stop alot of these corrupt Bishops being laws unto themselves. In fact I think that what we are going to find that while where we find it, child abuse in the Church will be at high levels; the locations where we find it, are going to be the exception rather than the rule, unless we're talking 40-50 years ago and then who knows....

True. I hear what you're saying. People will start to displace their own issues around religion into the debate as the media stirs the emotional response into a hysterical frenzy. Perspective is then eroded and the objective process that is the application of law is consumed by subjective venting. All i can hope is that an inquiry goes a long way to stop bad things like child abuse from happening.

A fair response but Neil. But many people, including myself, are quite angry at the instiution of the Catholic Church (though not the faith or it's adhererents).

Why?

because of the insitutionalised rampant hypocrisy on this matter plus their apparent collusion in child abuse through their protection of the perpetrators - leading to repeat offences - which is a matter of public record. Indeed it was evidence from a seniot police officer offered to a state inquiry that sparked furore that may have led to the decision to the Royal Commission - our PM referred to it in her press statement

The church also claim to have synpathy for the victims in public yet the evidence is one of frustrating proper redress and healing and have continued to behave as if they are above the law of the land (e.g by their refusal to release documents that would provide evidence)

They should be no different from any other instiution - and this royal commission will ensure that. The time for a reckoning has come for the Catholic Church and all other instiutionalised child abuse.

It is at least a first step and will give the victims a chance to experience some healing. It will be up the Church itself to wake up and realise that defence of itself as an instiution should not take a priority over proper accountability for the crimes and cover ups it has colluded with - if it does so it would be better for the chruch as an institution - but so far their responses don't augur well

And yet Mark, you're hardly one to talk. When KNOWINGLY confronted with a survivor of child abuse in a Catholic institution which was covered up (myself), you chose to respond by at best, accusing them of being a child abuse enabler (you falsely accused me of blindly defending Pell and the Church over inaction when it has taken place) and at worst, implied by it that I myself was potentially a pedophile.

It would appear that my "crime" here" was not only that I didn't fit neatly into the box you'd clearly like all victims of institutionalised abuse and coverup to fit into, but that I actually didn't appreciate you manipulating the suffering I and others have endured to enable your own personal separate issues with the Church.

From where I stand, and as the victim of similar conduct from you - (invalidating, villainising and trivilaising behaviour to service your own agenda) your conduct towards me in this thread has been no better than the conduct of the teachers at my high school who swept my ordeal under the carpet.

@ Andrew - I have made no statement whatsoever about your status as a victim of child abuse. You have my synpathy on that regard. I did respond to a separate comment from you claiming (off topic) that Climate change was a nazi flavoured piece of propaganda.

The fact that you, on a completely different post, then laid out your status as a victim was a decision you have made. Again, you have my sympathy for that and I hope the inquiry may provide some outlet of healing for you.

If you need support and help for this I encourage you to seek it through the proper channels.

Mark, your exact response was "The scary thing is that you apparently believe the mish mash gish gallop of non scientific doggerel you have offered and think it's a defence of Pell and the church in relation to this issue of insitutionalised harboring and proection of child abusers. No wonder the catholic church is in trouble"

Let's specifically examine part of it "and think it's a defence of Pell and the church in relation to this issue of insitutionalised harboring and proection of child abusers."

So on the contrary, your implication that I was a child abuse enabler by what you said here was so blatant that you all but came out and accused me of being one.

As to my comments about climate change, you clearly fail to grasp the difference between naturally occurring climate change and Anthropogenic climate change. Noone would deny the former is happening, yet the politics of the later dictates that anyone who challenges the notion of Anthropogenic Climate Change must deny climate change in its entirety.

Furthermore my comments about it being Nazi propaganda were as only off the mark as the difference between nationalism and globalism. The fact is that the enivronmental movement was founded by the British Eugenics Society (it's rather talling ironic that in the wake of the world saying "never again" at Nuremberg, they were not declared a criminal organisation under British law) as well as former card carrying Nazis such as Prince Phillip. A great starting point if you are curious is an article on the Modern History Project entitled "Culling the Herd".

Abby, as a survivor of an indecent assault which happened at a Catholic high school and was covered up, I personally find your using the suffering of myself and other survivors as cover to vent on your own Catholic issues, utterly sickening to the core. The fact that you're so quick to jump to the conclusion that any victim of a child abuse in the Catholic Church, must have been the victim of a Priest, speaks volumes not only of your ignorance of the situation, but also of how little you WANT to know about it.

As for your point about the Rainbow Sash movement; what did you expect would happen? You can't as an organisation, openly express pride in sexual immorality (which is technically any form of sexual intercourse which is not done in a manner which is open to procreation) in a manner which backs the Church into a corner when they're forced to reassert doctrine (which is that noone can receive the Eucharist in a state of sin) and then cry foul when they do? It's blatant hypocrisy and the response would have been the same had someone attended mass wearing a sash made of condoms. For someone who CLAIMS to be a theologian, you should understand that the reasoning behind that was far more than mere Homophobia and also applies to the use of contraception or heterosexual anal sex. Or would this be too inconvenient for your Catholic-bashing rant? Oh and for the record, I have absolutely no love for Pell - I personally think he can be an idiot at times and has engaged in heresy on at least one very public occasion (ie "sometimes the Holy Spirit gets it wrong").

First off, FYI, Julia Gillard is a member of the Fabian Society - an organisation which is literally only differs from the Nazis in believing in globalism rather than nationalism (and in that difference, manage to be actually worse than the Nazis). Hell they were the ideological impetus for the policies of both the Nazis and the Stolen Generation (ie eugenics). Heck, the QALY-based national health care plan the the Gillard govt announced in the past couple of years is ripped straight out of the Nazi play book. If you're trying to look for solid moral high ground there, all you'll find is quicksand.

Furthermore if you think that institutionalised coverups of child abuse are limited to just the Catholic Church, you are incredibly naive. The difference between coverups in the Protestant denominations and coverups between the Catholic Church is that with Protestants, it is decentralised and even then you have individual Reverends and Pastors who through Tithing, have amassed incredible private wealth, in addition to personal power. Heck, one of my exes was a victim of a Church of Christ coverup in South Australia where that was exactly the situation. This is a significant factor in the Royal Commission targetting ALL institutionalised child abuse and coverups.

Furthermore, suggesting that this has been some insidious coverup from the top is ludicrous and shows a complete ignorance of the governing mechanics of the Catholic Church.

Certainly Bishops have been corrupt, but the problem has been the system in place to govern Bishops. People keep on criticising Pell for doing nothing yet he has no jurisdiction here. The problem here is that the next level of authority above Bishops, is the Congregation of Bishops, which literally handles every single Diocese on the planet. What needs to happen in the wake of all this is for that chain of command to be bridged so that there's alot more accountability for Bishops. Furthermore even organisations such as Broken Rites point to the issues being sporadic far more than being consistent - with hotspots such as the Hunter region being a serious issue.

As for the violence of the Church, the Catholic Church is far from alone in that. Besides instances such as the Calvinist massacre of Ghent; you have the entire Iraq and Afghan Wars which have caused over 10 million victims of genocide between them in over a decade - all of which driven by the Bush Administration which in turn was practically bought and owned by the [Baptist] Falwell movement. Funny how you ignore Protestant driven genocide in the past decade that rather inconveniently paints Protestants in an even worse light than Catholics.

Finally, so you would have survivors who still adhere to their faith in spite of their abuse to be declared members of a criminal organisation would you Abby? Wow, way to blame the victim on that one.