Judith, did you actually read the story from Schubert in the Age this morning? It's linked to in the post above yours. It seems that in fact it IS women choosing not to apply for frontline roles.

Are the women you know personally in infantry units as riflemen (OK, "riflepersons")? Are they in field artillery units as gunners? Armoured units as tank crew? Are they combat medics attached to infantry units?

Or are they all clerks of one form or another, happily sitting in HQ units whilst complaining loudly about how they'd really love the chance to go and fight the foe?

"Interesting that all the comments so far have been from men"

Why do you think that might be? It is because men are outraged with it. As are many women I have spoken to. Perhaps women stay away for a reason?

You need to understand something. Men are tired of this "we wanna play too" rubbish. I can personally go back to a time women demanded to get into the RSL clubs. My grandfather would never go back as many didn't. That was the only place for him to talk through war stories, with some cursing, both of which he felt uncomfortable doing around women out of respect for them. So he died alone on his porch. I see women clubs are okay though.

Women in combat, you also need to understand that men have an innate feeling to protect women and children. The killing of women and children is a sanctity that cannot be broken. It is known, that if we find a group of dead women, a crime has been committed. There is simply no excuse. But now any warlord around the world can simply spread guns around and say that the women were killed in combat. Do you see? It also provides reason to round them up maybe with the men? Who will be left for the children? The implications here could be massive. But the women "want to play too". She cannot seem to think of anything other than herself. No regard for anyone or anything but herself.

If four out of five suicides were women, it would be all over our televisions. Men tire of it. I can tell you, every other man I ask these days has an unhealthy hatred of women. They wake to it and start to stand up. Women first, everyone else can suffer and die. Not anymore. I wait for women to grow up, but they truly seem incapable of it.

Judith,
I suggest that you reread what was actually said.
I think that you will find that the men you refer to are actually saying that if women want equal rights then they should also accept equal responsibility, which includes not only the risk of death but also disfigurement and disability.
It is puzzling that as soon as this issue was raised, it was suddenly necessary to discuss changes such as a trial period.
In another but related topic, I find it strange that women demand equality in club membership for example, and then immediately demand women only exercise clubs and women only sessions in public swimming pools.
I would put it to you that in many cases there seems to be a demand for exceptionalism by groups such as women.
Women's health issues have dominated the media for years, yet men die on average at a younger age. I have yet to read of a compelling reason for this difference.

Women have been unable to be employed in combat roles in the ADF for many years, this was only changed in September of last year, and this change is set to be implemented over the next 5 years. Women who are currently serving in the ADF are already in positions they have been trained for, whether that is in a clerical position or any other, so would need to be retrained to enter into a combat role. Some of the women I know are in clerical positions, others are in roles such as medical, dental, psychology, logistics, transport, and computing. One is a chef. The fact that these women, many who have been working for many years in their current positions, do not choose a combat role, is a result of many factors such as age, family commitments, and fitness. None of the women I know personally are sitting anywhere complaining loudly about wanting a combat position.

As for new female recruits, without dealing with the discrimination that already exists in the ADF, there is unlikely to be many that choose the ADF as a career. Why would anyone take a job where they know that they will be subject to sexual harassment and discrimination? It is not the women that are the problem, it is the culture of discrimination in the ADF that changing.

To be an effective front-line soldier, you need to be able to trust your comrades in arms, and you need to have their respect. At the moment this is not what women have in the ADF. This again is not the fault of the women, (who must be able to perform in a combat situation just the same as the men), it is a problem of a culture of discrimination in the ADF.

Perhaps, as we see the policy to allow women to join combat units, implemented over the next 5 years, we will see an increase in new recruits wanting to take up combat roles. I wouldn't expect things to change over night though, and since it has been less than 1 year since this policy change, I will be waiting a little longer to see any dramatic changes.

You are putting forward all the well worn, and unproven arguments about why women should not be in combat roles. It is rubbish that men have an innate feeling to protect women and children, if this was the case we would not see so much killing, mutilating and rape of women and children in war zones. The fact is that there would be a whole lot less of this is women were armed trained and allowed to fight.

I know of no women who thinks of a combat role as "playing". If a female soldier is able to perform the duties of a combat role, she should be able to choose this role without discrimination.

If you would like to see issues like male suicide made more prominent, then get a lobby group going, lobby your local member, go out and march in the street, get together with others and implement changes. This is exactly how women brought about changes to legislation, and this is how women bring issues to light.

Perhaps when men finally grow up, and learn that we are all human beings, no matter what our gender, instead of this constant whining about their perceived loss of power, the world would be a much more peaceful place. As a woman, I am very tired of men trying to claim victim status all the time, if you want to stop discrimination get off your backside and do something about it, for all human beings.

What an ignorant response with some most interesting "facts". Can you not see the irony of what you write?

"If you would like to see issues like male suicide made more prominent, then get a lobby group going, lobby your local member, go out and march in the street, get together with others and implement changes. This is exactly how women brought about changes to legislation, and this is how women bring issues to light."

"..if you want to stop discrimination get off your backside and do something about it, for all human beings."

And this is the point. When it is a woman issue we all have to get together, and when it's a man issue, you're on your own! I hope you see it now.

I could write a book on the rubbish you write here. You need to do some research. I have recently left Defence. A female colleague has a plaque on her desk that says, "If you want the job done right leave it to a woman." What if a male had a plaque on his desk that said, "If you want the job done right leave it to a man"? There is a supervisor that wears a security lanyard that says, "Chicks rule, Chicks rule" all around it. What if a male supervisor wore a lanyard that said, "Men rule, Men rule". Would you think of him a child? And women say nothing. I would say something to a man about sexism. Women say nothing. Just this childish you go girl attitude.There is discrimination and sexism in Defence but I only ever saw it from women.

I suggest you educate yourself with "real facts" poster. But you nearly took the words out of my mouth here. Just simply swap words.

Perhaps when women finally grow up, and learn that we are all human beings, no matter what our gender, instead of this constant whining. As a man, I am very tired of women trying to claim victim status all the time.

Why did you not speak up? If you saw all this blatant sexism, why not bring it to the attention of your superiors, or directly to the women whose actions you found offensive?

Discrimination on the basis of gender is different from sexism, sexism although offensive from either gender is an issue of attitude. Discrimination on the basis of gender is the action of those in a position of power, using that power to prevent access to opportunity, unequally favour based on gender rather than merit, and in some cases harm another. Being offended, while unpleasant, is not going to hurt you.

You are throwing around generalisations and trying to pass them off as facts, some women may very well be sexist, just as some men are, but you are trying to paint everyone the same, and that makes your statements a lot less credible, and certainly nothing like actual facts.

For most of our history, and presently in many parts of the world, women are the victims of oppression and discrimination, and they have worked very hard at trying to change this position, rather than just whining as you seem to be doing. It is not only women working to change discrimination and oppression, there are also a lot of mature, intelligent and supportive men, who have also fought for equality for women. In fact, there are many people world wide fighting for equality for all human beings,

The ADF is just one part of society where the culture of discrimination needs to change, for women, and for other minority groups. I personally think that this should be the focus, rather than having quotas. Quotas simply build resentment, making the ADF a workplace free from discrimination would be a far better way of encouraging young people to join up and serve their country, regardless of their gender.

There seems to be a distinct difference in rationalising.

I don't know how you can say this..
"Discrimination on the basis of gender is the action of those in a position of power, using that power to prevent access to opportunity, unequally favour based on gender rather than merit", when that is why we are here. Positions/promotions in Defence are now based on gender.

I don't know how you can say this..
"The fact is that there would be a whole lot less of this is women were armed trained and allowed to fight." and then say.. "You are throwing around generalisations and trying to pass them off as facts".

I don't know how you can say this..
"Perhaps when men finally grow up, and learn that we are all human beings, no matter what our gender, instead of this constant whining about their perceived loss of power, the world would be a much more peaceful place", and then say... "but you are trying to paint everyone the same, and that makes your statements a lot less credible."

I don't know how you can say this..
"It is not only women working to change discrimination and oppression, there are also a lot of mature, intelligent and supportive men, who have also fought for equality for women." And then say.. "If you would like to see issues like male suicide made more prominent, then get a lobby group going, lobby your local member, go out and march in the street, get together with others and implement changes. This is exactly how women brought about changes to legislation, and this is how women bring issues to light."

I suggest there are higher priorities than making the perfect world for the woman at any cost. Women will reap what they sow here.