David, you raise two very good points here.

Your example of two parents over-doing it is excellent - it actually lends itself to an argument or view in favour of supporting what this article seeks to stop, but far more powerfully, yet for the very reason that the article tries to justify itself.

The other point is becoming an all-too familar one nowadays, the cotton-wooling of chidren.

School sporting events empahise the participation, rather than the winning of medals, as if these things are mutually exclusive, and I remember reading that one of the English Teachers Unions some time ago, had on motion at their annual conference, that failure at an exam, etc., should be deemed 'deferred success'.

I failed my driving test twice in the U.K. Based on such tomfoolery, I could write a comedy sketch on the situation in the car when the examiners informed me.

Nothing that can be considered even remotely dangerous must be allowed, in order to avoid any chance of litigation.

In 2009, I did a term at a school in Enfield, North London, and one February Friday morning, the school announced suddenly it was closing for the day - with panicky messages being swifty delivered to local radio to inform parents - as snow had started falling. Despite denying it, the local authority had only one reason for doing so - a fear that a child might hurt themselves and the council be deemed liable.

I also experienced one student-free day there, when the English Department were moderating Year 11 assignments, and because I wasn't involved in that exercise, read some and wrote down word for word, so ridiculous were they, some of the comments that students had received from teachers. I won't bore you with the details - I've know I've already made a hefty start in the boredom department - but one pearler was a tick, the grade 'B', and the word 'excellent' written beside it.

The fact that a teacher of English had written that was bad enough, but the real question is what good are you doing a student if you avoid them facing realities?

That's a good reply, Ron, and one hopes Krista thinks a little more deply about this isue.

The school where I've been doing relief teaching for the last four years, and where I taught English ffull-time for 12 years until 2008, recently held a Parents' Evening to discuss their children's education, etc. I attended this, and the idea of having alcohol available at such a school function would be absurd. No-one in their right mind would suggest or endore that.

Sadly, some years' ago, we had a teacher of English on our books who really was an alcoholic. Not only did his marriage break-up, one afternoon, at the first period after lunch, the deputies would not allow him in the classroom, and he never set foot in the school again.

Clifford,

I think you and Krista Stringer (no relation) are agreeing with each other. The qualification in her response to you appears to have been a petulant (having taken slight offence at your condescension I reckon) attempt to point that out.

She says, and I (and you, I think) agree, that "showing children we do not require alcohol to enjoy ourselves is a very good lesson for them to learn, given the enormous problems with alcohol in our country."

She makes no comment which could be construed as condoning (i.e. approving) consumption of alcohol at other times.

If you want an example of alcohol being consumed in front of kids at a school event, I suggest you attend a GPS school rugby match!

For what it's worth, I agree that alcohol has no place at any school function and, indeed, all workplaces need to think seriously about the part alcohol plays at work functions (and the attrocities committed as a result).

You've used a false equivalence Ron.

Perhaps I was being a little too obtuse for you Brad. The issue is really about the legacy left to your children. And children will, I agree, follow much of the behaviour of their parents. But surely good training isn't through lecturing or moralising. Nor is it through laissez faire or even permissive attitudes. Its surely through common sense, and common sense comes from positive and open discussion and gentle parental guidance and modelling generation by generation. When that breaks down, the big problems in behaviour begin.

Hiding adult behaviour from adolescents, even older children brings about a number of dangers.

Young people talk about adult behaviour anyway and often get a skewed idea when parents try to hide things. They will find out, probably from peers or the more unstable adults in the community. And if its taboo, all the more reason they will be likely to find out for themselves, often detrimentally.

There is also the danger of naivete, which places young people in danger of learning the wrong values from the ill-informed.and the unstable. I remember that myself because there was a taboo regarding alcohol in my home and when introduced to it I almost fell into alcoholism in my late adolescence. You see because I knew nothing of the dangers and the necessary limits required with the substance it was easy to fall in with some very heavy drinkers through my earl employment (Advertising which has a lot of alcoholism because of the stresses related to that occupation). Fortunately other elements of good parenting and modelling on my father and mother's part pulled me out of it after only a few years. But I suspect that if I had been better prepared I may not have taken the risks I did.

So open communication, honesty and common sense are paramount. And even if alcohol is not served in the parental home, its important that young people be honestly informed and prepared. If it is served then it shouldn't be hidden, and at an appropriate time if the adolescent wants to try the substance, it should be done openly, carefully and with common sense like with all things in life.

I got your point Ron, and I agree with you as it turns out, but your use of analogy was bogus.

It is not an argument against a person's position to invite false comparison with an unrelated position.

Incidentally (and only for arguments sake) what is your view about kids and, say, cocaine? Can you have a discussion about it or do your kids need to see you consume the drug sensibly in order to be properly prepared for the very real chance it will be offered them at some stage? (this is not an attack on your view, I just wonder how you rationalise the logical extension of your argument).

In this country it is illegal to use or sell cocaine, and this is what I told my daughter when she was a teenager. It is not illegal in Australia to consume or sell alcohol, (although the sale is regulated), so the comparison is not a realistic one.

It is not a logical extension of Ron's argument to say that children should witness criminal activity. I do think that the issue of illegal drugs should definitely be discussed with children though, so that they are aware of the laws of the country they live in, and of the consequences of breaking those laws.

Whatever the views of the parent, on the consumption of illegal substances, children should know what is considered criminal behaviour, and what is not. If drugs that are illegal now, became legal in the future, then what we tell our children, and indeed show our children, would again change.

Yeah yeah all that but Ron doesn't need you to answer questions posed to him about his views, nor are they (your views as to what his views in response to my hypothetical might be) relevant.

Seeing as you asked nicely though... to counter the argument that children should be sheltered from witnessing alcohol consumption, Ron says (in short and stripped of references to his upbringing) that kids learn from watching things done the right way (I agree) ... he says that adolescents can be given alcohol as long as its done 'openly and carefully' (I disagree)

On the other hand, you could argue that lessons about alcohol do not require the child to witness first hand its consumption (for the purpose of this debate) at a school function.

Now, if you are against the second proposition, surely you must be able to explain the ability of most parents to be capable of explaining the dangers of the consumption of illicit drugs without the kids seeing, firsthand, a hooker shooting up heroin in a Kings Cross alley or a bunch of professional types snorting lines of coke in a city bar.

Big difference. You're talking about a substance, like many substances on the black market, that not only has its individual dangers as a substance, and an addictive substance at that, but is also often cut with other often unknown and potentially even more lethal substances.

I'm not going to get into comparing substances like alcohol as opposed to cocaine, heroin, cannabis, methamphetamine and related party drugs, hallucinogens and various anti-depressants and antipsychotics that are used to give an upper or downer reaction. And quite frankly my personal opinions regarding their dangers in comparison to alcohol are irrelevant because they are deemed in this society to be illegal. If alcohol was deemed illegal in Australia, I would hold the same position. Our society has chosen that alcohol is legal, and consequently we must address it realistically as something that will be used in general open society and therefore what we need to do to ensure it is not done dangerously.

I understand that there were many addictive substances that came in various forms only a century again including cocaine that were at the time legal. Decisions were made to make them illegal. Maybe through public pressure cannabis for example may become legal in future. If so then we need to address it the same way we address alcohol.

But the issue is a legal one and consequently one that any sensible parent concerned for their children's welfare must seek to strongly discourage. Would I discuss it openly with young adolescents? Definitely if it seemed important to discuss and I would do it openly. I would also encourage parents to familiarise themselves with information about these substances so they are prepared to discuss it with knowledge backing and be in a position to recognise the symptoms if their offspring do participate in such activity. I found too often parents had no idea what was happening until it was too late.

But most importantly I would be saying to young people that there are laws and standards by which we are all bound and no matter the opinion, if you are caught you risk gaol, alienation from your positive friends, possible termination of a career, not to mention the health risks. If they want to seek to have the law changed through legal process later in life, that's their right. But they have to know they must accept the consequences of their actions.

We of course have to accept that a large minority, even perhaps a majority of children will experiment anyway. Watching who their friends are is always wise. But in the end you just have to rely on the foundation you have given them to pull them through if mistakes are made.

PS Dont go down Phillip or Macquarie Streets in Sydney towards evening. There's many a nose on the line in various legal board rooms et al. And there are many young legal careers that nose dive (excuse the pun) early in their career.

I don't think we are, Brad, and I don't accept it's condescension to ask something to think a little more deeply about something.

As Ron said ages ago, it's not an either/or thing, and as I've said, in all the years I been a teacher, inlcuding over six years working in Further Education Colleges, I've never been to a function at the school/college where alcohol was available and consumed.This article raises an issue that isn't an issue or point of contention in the first place. As if a teacher is going to argue that alcohol should be generally made available at events involving parents and their children.

I also can't accept that when Krsita said: 'I am not condoning alcohol as an essential part of every parent-only event', that, apart from the way she raises the issues there, since no-one has been arguing for that, anyway, that she didn't mean 'condemning'. It doesn't make sense or add up, otherwise.

And I'm sorry but the GPS school rugby match reference is invalid, in my view, unless I have chapter and verse. I've played in the U.K. Rugby Union against Years 11s and there was defintely no alcohol availabe, no way. Matter of fact, the subject never arose.

I also played Rugby Union against school Old Boys, and we played at an esablished Rugby Union Club (Thurrock) and all the ex-students were of drinking age, anyway.

I'd like more deatils of your assertion there.

I'm not going to try and argue Krista's case for her. You may be right but when I read the entirety of her comments she seems to me to be generally against alcohol in connection with schools (plus she doesn't appear to be a complete idiot and probably knows the difference between condemn and condone - although she may be using Siri to comment).

Re the rugby thing, booze may not be served at every school (I wouldn't know) but if you attend a game at Scots College or St Josephs College (both in Sydney) alcohol is available (although the bar at Joeys only starts serving after first grade has finished).

Yes, she seems to be, so that is why the word 'condoning' doesn't make sense.

In realtion to that bar, is that a licensed bar of the College, and if it is, as it seems, I can't imagine they would be selling to minors.

Made sense to me.

I don't know if they have a license; I don't expect that they serve alcohol to minors in any event (I have not witnessed that). The recent 'old boys' give it a fair nudge though.

There is nothing in all the comments I have read on this article that shows wilful ignorance of the problems with over consumption of alcohol in Australia, you are creating a strawman argument.

I wanted my daughter to be well aware of the consequences of over consumption of alcohol, and saw these consequences myself when growing up. Seeing people drunk served to encourage me to moderate my own consumption of alcohol, particularly seeing the health issues that others had from over consumption, and the social issues of violent alcohol fuelled behaviour.

As for your last paragraph, that is simply not true, there are many events and social occasions where alcohol is not permitted, discouraged, and not at all necessary to enjoying oneself. There are also very few cultures around the world that do not consume alcohol, indeed many social functions in Europe and Asia are based around the consumption of alcohol, for example October fest.

In my dealings with those that abuse alcohol, the alcoholism is generally the symptom of deeper problems, and until the real problems are addressed, treating the alcoholism is merely a bandaid solution, and an exercise in harm minimisation, (this is the same for illegal drug use as well). There may be people with a problem with alcohol, but the vast majority of people in Australia are not alcoholics, and the vast majority of children in Australia will not grow up to be alcoholics, particularly when they see the sensible consumption of alcohol by their parents, and are told of the consequences of over consumption.

Hiding the reality of alcohol consumption from children, both the moderate and excessive use, will not prevent children from consuming alcohol, but it will allow them to make an informed decision about their own consumption when they become adults.

Your arguments remind me of Sir Toby Belch's great sepech to Malvolio 'Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?'

You get no argument from me, I agree that children need to get the appropriate messages. As for leaving alcohol out of school events, I've actually never been to a school event, in my own childhood, or at the time my daughter was attending school, where alcohol was served at all. I don't think that there are enough occurrences of drinking at school events to make it any sort of social problem needing to be addressed.

I recently went to an open air film festival, put on by the local high school, the child appropriate films were shown early in the afternoon, and no alcohol consumption was allowed during that time. When the adult appropriate films were being shown, those with kids took them home, and alcohol, (there was no one getting drunk), was allowed, and an enjoyable evening was had.

Perhaps we need to think about who is the focus of events, whether it be children, or adults, and regulate alcohol consumption at the event, on that basis.

Judith, thsi is a non-issue if ever there was one. You've said something very similar to what I said - in over thirty years of teaching, I've never even been to any school where a function involving parents, teachers and students included serving alcohol.

Articles such as this one, invite contempt not just because they are poorly written but because they give academia a bad name.

It does seem to be contrived, its not like schools are going around promoting the consumption of alcohol at their events. Its just another "wont someone please think of the children" article. Little in the way of any evidence for the position taken by the author, and weak arguments.

I see children of alcoholics struggle to even get 1 decent meal a day, in the street I live in, perhaps there should be more focus on those that are actually suffering from parents that are alcoholics, and how we, as a society can help those children, than worrying about kids possibly being exposed to some adult having a beer at a school function, particularly when the likely hood of this occurring seems to be vanishingly small.