So your basically saying that you do what a normal person would do? - Well done!

This isnt an argument for religious influence on our schools, everything you said could be done by a consueller - so why are paying specifically for christian chaplains? The argument before was "Well they are cheap and offer an extra set of hands" - now with the government funding that argument is out the window.

So the argument now is that they only do what consuellers do....so why are we only and specifically employing christian chaplains? why not jst employ conseullers? if the chaplains truely have no religious agenda then arent they jst conseullers? if they are jst conseullers why are we only employing christians as Chaplains instead of jst employing conseullers?

Why? - because you christians want a privilaged position in our society and cry bloody murder and persecution when we try to take that privilage away

your beliefs dont deserve privilage over anyone else

While it is lovely to teach that homophobia is a crime in Catholic schools, is it not confusing for the students when the church declares that homosexuality is a sin?
Just as perhaps Catholic schools teach that women are equal while the church refuses them leadership roles as priests.
And perhaps Catholic schools teach religious tolerance while the Catholic church claims to be the 'one and only church'.

Yes, like the Vatican. There have been Christian theocracies, but Christianity does not demand this. Christian theology is perfectly comfortable with the separation of the Church from the state as is clear from the teaching - "Give to Caesar that which is Caesars, give to God that which is Gods".

I believe Saint Paul reinforces this point.

Big misconception on your part Mr Furtada.
I was a convert, so maybe why I see through the "Gods co-incidences"..
We are a law unto to ourselves and as far as the church is conerned it's "our way or no way", until recently that is. Years of sexual abuse of our most innocent, forced adoptions by our religious institutes, intimidation of those seeking accountability. Facilities in place for women "in situation created by clergy" with no records to even prove their existance, let alone who their mothers. were.
Bishop Peter Connors soon to be retired from the paedophile city in Victoria can verify that.
Conspiracy?
I suppose now Cardinal , George Pell when being investigated for "inappropiate behavior" against a young boy, sought the accusers QC who represented him in the Painter and Dockers inquiry some years ago, TO REPRESENT HIM, then information about the case leaked to discredit him.
Please.
There are a lot of cowards out there ingratiating themselves for political expediency.

Acknowledging my punctuation mistake brought to my attention by John Harland, I thought I had better check for others.
I'm sorry to have spelt your surname incorrectly in an earlier reply Dr Furtado.
I also need to acknowledge, residing in Queensland as you do, you wouldn't be aware that your state was the dumping ground for our errant priests, with those who need to be kept out of forays, usually made bishops and travel through the Australian Bishops Conference.

Again, the Greens are elected, that means that their "moralistic bullying", or the policies that people voted for, are supposed to be legislated.

The beach volleyball assoc. does not want/expect to make us all play volleyball, like the Catholic church wants us all to pay for it's land use.

In the days when society was largely religious, and largely Christian these special circumstances for churches probably reflected the churches' role in our lives, but with 70% of marriages being outside a church we probably need to change the charity status of churches to something that better represents Australian society today.

Yes, I agree.

It was actually a serious question. If the grammar of a policy document was that sloppy, we might rightly question whether its preparation had been left to the least-capable person in the department, and whether the supervisor had bothered to check it.

Gavin... you speak of 'creeping Christianization' of public institutions. Good grief.. I can speak equally of the rampaging DE Christianization of not just those, but of the whole land.

Lynne Newington touches on a very important topic though.. "Catholic" this or that and that it smells like something she won't name. Yes.. absolutely Lynne is entirely right, and the danger is that one branch of Christendom is beholden to God directly, another is beholden to Him though a Priest, a Church and a Pope.
History shows us how badly 'that' latter one went as it involved the magistrate as the enforcer of obedience to the church, a very bad thing.
Secularism didn't do any better I'm afraid.. the 'Secular' French revolution simply replaced the inquisition of the Catholic Church with the Inquisition of the Committee of Public Safety and forced all people to dress alike, made masturbation a capital offence (yes really) and made the police 'state spies' looking out for 'counter revolutionary sentiment' and people named "Louis" or who played cards with Kings, Queens and Jacks, (who were guillotined) rather than Roman gods... (who were praised)
Robespierre was a disciple of Rousseau an enlightenment giant who's footprints are "all over" just about every institution today.. ever wondered why the Swiss have a 'direct democracy' method? Rouseau..he wrote the Social Contract for Geneva! (He also wrote Poland and Corsica's constitutions) but he also declared that people who didn't fulfill the 'General Will' should be executed for being 'anti social'.

I think conflating a discussion of an important issue e.g. global warming with religious indoctrination to be a very long bow indeed. My experience of my daughter's state education experience has certainly not been "softly to the left". In fact, I've noticed several occasions when a "softly to the right" seems more accurate, but it doesn't bother me - what does bother me is the considerable ignorance I see displayed by my daughter's teachers....

Debates around Australian history, the environment, evolution etc. are really very important. From what I see, my child experiences scaffolded opportunities in critical thinking, debating, evidence and research methods - any bias is really not going to register compared with the biases she (and children generally) receive from their families.

But back to religion. The French disallowed the wearing of hijab in schools on the premise of secularity: this seemed idiotic to me. While I agree with Dennis that the school chaplain thing is an attempt at creeping christianisation, I think we need to be careful to promote, allow, even encourage religious diversity and practice.

That is, we should have a determinedly secular education system, but we should also do our best to accommodate those who wish to practise religious customs.

Jack,
That is a very considered reply.

ken,
You do, of course, have evidence of these 'educational zealots' that you refer to? The same rigour that you apply to climate science and australian history, presumably.

Thanks Ken for some sanity. I would also describe myself as a "fierce social liberal and feminist, stoutly secular and passionate about social justice", and I was raised by moderate Catholics and spent (including my uni college) 14 years in Catholic education in Queensland. While I would want to be careful about chaplaincy programmes to ensure that they don't turn into something more widespread and (possibly) dangerous to secularism, there is a big difference between the majority of people I encountered in that education system and the idiots that make headlines in the name of the church hierarchy - a hierarchy that is increasingly isolating itself from it's (decreasing) membership in countries like Australia.

Ken, you seem to be saying that teachers in public schools are lefties that preach from their soapboxes? I'd like to see your evidence for that assumption. Given your Catholic education, have you had any experience of public schools?
Teachers are predominantly very socially conservative people committed to covering a very crowded curriculum.

Every school in Australia has a school chaplain?

Rubbish.

Should every school in Australia have a school chaplain?

Absolutely not, no school should.

Qantas should not be raising money for anything. If it has excess money it's fares should be cheaper. The best way for companies to contribute to society is to pay reasonable and fair wages, good working hours, and pay tax without avoidance.

Hi Michael, well that was an improvement, but I'm a bit mystified by this : "They outrageously defy the rules of logic." (my posts) If you make an assertion of that nature, please include "such as......dadadada" give something by way of example. At least then I know what you are talking about.

What in the world are you meaning by "Murderous and suicidal" ???? you want to kill me ?
You didn't hurt me, because it was plain wierd. You're right about one thing, I am impervious to ad hominems, but I'm not invulnerable to logic and reasoning.
Rather than bore everyone to tears about the various (many) studies on the relative health of gays compared to smokers, I simply advised people to use their fingers. After all, given my stand on the issue anything I actually suggest would be regarded as 'tainted' don't you agree? I did some solid exploration and satisified myself that the information is out there, the rest is up to the individual to seek out.

Now..the intergenerational bit? aah.. perhaps you suggest that was a rant? Nope.. I have followed the growth of the gay rights movement for many years, including from it's beginnings at Stonewall where they rioted and attacked the police; to the intimidation (and violent) of the American Pscychological Association to force them to change their evaluation of homosexuality from a "developmental disorder" to a normality. (those events are around 1972 ish)

Given the history of that issue, there are 2 points to be noted... I might be repeating them here from the previous post....

1/ People like Dennis Ferguson will claim till they are black and blue that they were born that way. (attracted to child sex)
2/ We reject such things on legal and cultural grounds. The laws about homosexual behavior were only changed by very loud voices and a lot of civil disobedience. So, if the DF's of this world unite, organize and push as hard as the gay lobby...they might succed in bringing about social and legal change.

But win lose or draw, that would not alter his claim to have been "born this way, I don't have a choice".

I used the Muslim illustration because it demonstrates the cultural relativity of such things. All DF and crowd need to is point out that a large portion of the world accepts the thing he wants and he has a powerful argument for decriminalising Paedophilia.

Our culture changed from "anti gay" to 'accepting' of gay behavior by the specific militant efforts of very violent protesters and activists. It could also happen if people like DF become articulate, organized and militant.

It is not irrational or defying the rules of logic.. it's plain simple social history. The runs are there on the board for all to see. Dates.. times...places...
Finally Michael, I don't need much 'attention' ... I have all I want, but I do rise to the challenge of thrashing these issues out.
If you can refute my claim about DF and IGS...then please do so. I simply don't understand the mindset which cannot see this. That argument is hardly an 'attack on gays' as much as observations of social history.

Rajan, you sound very intolerant. (yes, you do) Let's reverse your position. "I can't see why parents would NOT want their children to recieve religious instruction at state schools".. let's justify that.
1/ Our constitution pre-amble declares "Humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God" (the Christian God)
2/ Our parliament is opened with the (Christian) Lords prayer.

In other words we have a very strong kernel and history of Christianity in our national DNA. Now.. if it is argued that "Oh..but nowwwww we are such a diverse population" I counter with this,-If those who opened the floodgates to non traditional (British) migration had told the population just before the election where their plan to bring in gazillions of 'other' migrants that.. "Now.. we must realize that once they are here they will completely trash our history and traditions, our faith and our culture, and start claiming that their voice on such matters must be equally heard and that they would form 'Ethnic Associations" to protect and advance 'their' cultural/religious interests in a discriminatory and self serving manner"......do you think they would have won such an election?? Hardly old son. If culture and tradition is important to non traditional 'migrants', why would it be less precious to those already here? The one thing a government cannot legitimately do, and must never do, is coerce people into a particular faith. The reason in regard to Christianity is that primarily it would be totally unbiblical. But does a government not have a responsibility to maintain a cultural fabric and national tone? Do not new migrants have an obvious obligation to respect the existing culture and tradition? Should they seek to usurp it in favour of their own? The answers here are quite obvious and I need not state them, but I do hope you will reflect on this.

Hasn't worked so far. Graduates from private religious schools aren't noted for their piety.

I understand "charity" to have come from the Greek "agape".

Cold Christian charity centres on the giver feeling good about giving. There is pity for those upon whom it is bestowed, but very seldom much love.

Jesus certainly is quoted as telling us that to give is greater than to receive. It seems to me, though, that he might have been dismayed at those who seek to keep that pleasure of giving entirely to themselves, and not allow reciprocation.

Not many Christians actually do get down and dirty with the actual work. Most buy a measured amount of vicarious experience of it through their financial donations.

Harry...I see you are living in [aragraph 1 of Marcuse's essay "Repressive Tolerance" (1965) and would like to extend tolerance to your preferred social profile and intolerance to Christians because they "have an agenda".

Hmm..seems like you have one too Harry. I don't recall ever seeing an Savlo holding out a bit of food to a homeless bloke and then drawing it back suddenly when he tries to accept it, and the Salvo bloke saying "now now.. you need to believe in Jesus before I actually let this go"...c'mon.. it doesn't work like that.

One of my former co workers prior to my arrival at a mission overseas had to hack off the leg of a Muslim to save his life. "Can I borrow your hacksaw" he said to a fellow missionary. He didn't use that to 'redeem' the Muslim from his error, he just saved his life (Gangrene) and to this day that man is eternally grateful for saving him. Some hospital aid work is done in some places where some visual evidence of Christian beliefs is present. But think of it.. we do medical work to help and to evangelise, following James (New Testament) exhortation:

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. (James 2)

We go to far places to evangelise, and people know that's why we are there.. they accept it but none is coerced into faith. Belief or no belief... all are treated the same. (but I'll bet you can find an exception if you scrounge around long enough)

Do we judge each by what they preach, or what they practise?

Hi John, it seems a lifetime has passed since the last comment about 'caliphates seem to contradict you" :)
I'm wondering if 30+ countries of rabid Muslim mob violence and mayhem convinces you of the need to reflect on your position? You see..when an overwhelming majority of people and the State is Muslim, they tend to relax more and can afford a bit of tolerance here and there. But turn things around..and when they feel "they" are the ones hard done by, it can (and does) just take a 'rumor' to kick off the kind of extremism we have all witnessed this past week.
The first modern example of this was in Hebron in 1929 when a tiny Jewish community was massacred by rampaging Muslims (the majority) because of nothing more than a 'rumor' that "Jews were trying to take over the Dome of the Rock". It was entirely unfounded, but that didn't matter.
I've made far more critical video's against Mohammad and Islam than the silly trash they are all jumping up and down about now, but thus far no one has attacked me except for one communist. (at a rally last year)

Blamer... "secular" for education? why on earth would you want to inflict that on vulnerable children?

I think you mean something like.. "Scientifically verifiable reality" don't you? Well.. that worked well for Descarte , but not for Pascal. You see.. there happens to be a huge gulf between

1+2=4 a mathematical repeatable formula (scientific realm)
and
How do we determine moral right and wrong- (the moral/spiritual/social realm)

Rather than repeat myself, please do some self education about how the Enlightenment (once they worked out what that was-Kant) impacted the social realm.
The late Prof George Mosse of Wisconsin Univesity History program. (who happened to be a gay Jew) is in my view the foremost presenter of enlightenment history and he reduces it to this.

1/ They declared man to be Autonomous (from Christianity-as it was experienced then)
2/ They sought a new source for 'authority' and looked to 'natural law/Reason'
3/ The immediate problem was.. that while all people could agree with mathematical formula 2+2=4 they could not agree on the social realm of what is right or wrong, and there was no mathematical formula which would give a repeatable firm answer.
4/ The fundamental presupposition of the Enlightenment was...."That all people would think alike" and that became an absolute train wreck. Marcuse again... "Eros and Civlilization" in which he advocates a 'polymorphous perversity' ie.. extending Freud's idea that infants obtain erotic pleasure from 'anything' they can.. but are socialized away from this by 'us'..... nope.. Marcuse says let it go right through to adulthood!
Do I need to point out where that would lead? (gay 'rights' is one development) of course not. But I will point out that Marcuse ( a neo marxist) was worshipped almost as a god by many who are now in the sociology departments in major universities. You can take that wherever you like.

Yes I would be interested to know what percentage of the population express this view. Otherwise what looks like stating the obvious could be disregarded as an assumption not supported by facts.

I'd have thought that it's plain common sense and very Biblical "No imposition".. but teaching even comparative religion (honestly) is not imposing..and history of the founding faith underpinning our nation is not imposing either. "A religious test" for public office (in the sense it was mean't) would indeed be coercion. Same as the Jizya (Unbelief) tax under Islam.

Culture, in fact, is constantly changing. In my lifetime I have seen the change to decimal currency and the metric system, the feminist and sexual revolutions, the birth rate change from a high of over to 3 per woman to less than 2, marriage customs change from 88% or more of religious ceremonies to almost 70% of secular ceremonies, life expectancy increase by more than 10 years and church attendance and smoking rates plummet while opportunities for gambling and alcohol consumption have blossomed.

These various changes have and have had a huge effect on culture. The push to put chaplains in schools, and the resistance to this, are both attempts to influence popular culture.

My question is: just how secular is a society in which a specific interpretation of Christianity is so embedded in its processes - such as oaths and prayers at the opening of Parliament?

How can we complain of our secular society being eroded when it is dubitable that it has even been achieved?

The kind of religious instruction served up in schools seems a perfect reflection of the kind of religion embedded in our political and judicial institutions.

Yes, philosophically you are probably correct, but public schools that I have been involved in over 30 years, as a parent and visiting allied health worker, do succeed (apart from one rogue/crazy christian teacher my poor little one suffered) at leaving religion at the school gate.
The only world view they consistently push is probably a universal value to all religions, 'treat others as you would like them to treat you'.

Most likely they were very pleased to have someone voice their concerns, in an articulate way and backed up with data. Following it through so effectively is a credit to you and a wonderful example to your children.

Hi John,
The Chaplaincy & social welfare programme is separate to the Religious Instructions classes that may be offered in schools by volunteers put forward by local religious institutions. In fact it is recommended in the guidelines that the chaplain does not participate in religious instruction classes so as not to confuse the two roles.
The chaplain is permitted to run programmes with religious / spiritual content such as lunch time clubs. But the children / parents must 'opt in' to these, as opposed to the RI classes which, if offered, are an 'opt out' system. However, you are correct about the RI classes - at least in Qld. Because the RI instructors are not teachers, but community volunteers, they can not be left alone in the class, the teacher has to stay at all times. Also the children who opt out cannot be given an academic advantage by being offered extra tuition in normal subjects. This has resulted in them having to remain in the classroom - tucked in a corner - while the RI class is going on! Not acceptable - they still come home with messages about going to hell etc.
We discussed this at our P&C (yes - I brought it up) and the children now get moved into a sister class of the same level for the period. This is possible because it is quite a small number that actually bother to opt out. At another school my friend, who wasn't in paid work at the time, volunteered to teach the children from her son's class who opted out French in the library during that time. This was permitted because it wasn't a subject offered at the school - so they weren't getting ahead of the rest of the class. She doesn't think the school was all that happy - I think it resulted in more kids opting out, because French was a better option!
I believe this issue needs to be addressed at an Education Department level.

Also the scripture teachers usually gave lollies. Except one who always said that he had a chocolate frog for the best answer/colouring in and never gave one. That really annoyed my daughter, LOL!

No Di, you are correct it isn't. The role of the chaplain is exactly the same as that of the Welfare worker, aside from one thing. Here are the definitions direct from the guidelines:
2.1 School chaplains
For the purposes of this Program, a school chaplain is a person who:
• is recognised by the school community and the appropriate governing authority for the school as having the skills and experience to deliver school chaplaincy (as outlined at Section 1.5) to the school community
• is recognised through formal ordination, commissioning, recognised religious qualifications or endorsement by a recognised or accepted religious institution or a state/territory government approved chaplaincy service and
• meets the minimum qualification requirements, as outlined in Section 5.5.
Details of the role and responsibilities of the school chaplain are in Section 3.1 of these Program Guidelines.
2.2 Student welfare workers
For the purposes of this Program, a student welfare worker is a person who:
• is recognised by the local school community and the appropriate governing authority for the school as having the skills and experience to deliver student welfare services (as outlined at Section 1.5) to the school community; and
• meets the minimum qualification requirements, as outlined in Section 5.5.
Details of the role and responsibilities of the student welfare worker are in Section 3.1 of these
Program Guidelines.
One of my objections to having a chaplain was that the grant is given to the whole school, but a chaplain is permitted to use some of their time servicing a specific group - defined by their religious affiliation, and is required to spend time establishing & maintaining relationships with local religious groups (this can be found in the more detailed descriptions in the guidelines), whereas the Student Welfare worker spends their whole time available to each & every student.

Hi Rachel.
I suggested the response was unrepresentative because it was based on only 30% response.
Usually more highly motivated people do the campaigning and those content with the status quo do nothing.
Even if no specific campaigning was done on this, 30% is still not very representative.
I'm very glad you read Bible stories to your children. Oh that more parents did that.
My main beef with the secularists who want to remove SRI from schools is that they would be denying children less fortunate than yours the opportunity to hear at least "something" of Jesus.
I don't actually remember it, because I was too young, but in 1957, Billy Graham proclaimed Christ to the largest crowd ever to attend the MCG (157,000) during or soon after that Crusade, Sidney Myer (a Jew) came to Christ. He devoted much of his wealth to Christian good. He gave us the Myer Music bowl and his funeral was one of the most attended of any ever in Melbourne. Today? hmm we have children exposed to the degeneracy of MTV and various other "information" sources, and the weekend binge drinking by so many youth is testimony to how far we as a society have moved away from God. (Fled screaming is more like it)

I try to remove myself from my immediate historical context and see things in the big picture. I have a great deal of interest in the so called enlightenment, most of secularism today stems from that period. It makes interesting listening or reading I assure you. Secularism offers as many versions of right wrong, good bad etc and social guidance as there are people in the world. The Bible is a wonderful guide...even the bit about wives 'honour' /respect/submit' to their husbands, (all translations of the same greed word) because the same letter of Paul commands husbands to love their wives "as Christ loved the church" .. the marital relationship was never meant to be a power/ego trip for blokes who want to dominate women.

But as you say, at the school level... chaplain or social worker.. it's about choice.

PS.. I'm not reading David and Goliath to my granddaughter..it gets a bit gruesome at the end.