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Rudd wins the game of thrones

Labor has finally made the decision it ought to have taken long ago, but the counter-revolution has been extremely bloody and there are bodies all over the place. Not only is there a new Prime Minister…

Kevin Rudd is once again the Prime Minister of Australia. AAP/Alan Porritt

Labor has finally made the decision it ought to have taken long ago, but the counter-revolution has been extremely bloody and there are bodies all over the place.

Not only is there a new Prime Minister but a new deputy PM (Anthony Albanese), and a new Senate leadership combination (Penny Wong, Jacinta Collins).

Six cabinet ministers have quit the frontbench – Wayne Swan, Greg Combet, Stephen Conroy, Peter Garrett, Craig Emerson and Joe Ludwig. Garrett and Emerson will resign from Parliament at the election, as will Julia Gillard, who pledged before the ballot to go if she lost.

Rudd has been restored to the leadership three years to the week after he was pushed out.

In his mind, his return journey has all been about righting a wrong, seizing back what was his – the power, the Prime Ministerial Office, the Lodge.

This rang through his news conference tonight, when he said: “In 2007 the Australian people elected me to be their PM. That is the task that I resume today …”

Rudd’s tortuous course back has been costly to the party and contributed to, although is not responsible for, Gillard’s failures.

His 57-45 margin was comfortable but far from the draft he wanted.

The latest lunge at the leadership by the Rudd forces was much better organised than the one of February last year, let alone the March fiasco when Rudd didn’t stand.

One big difference is that caucus members, faced with horrifying public and private polls, have become more desperate.

It is a great pity they did not have the political nous and hard headedness to realise a year ago that he was their best option. Labor’s prospects would be much better.

Rudd has had to make a liar of himself, after he said in March he would never again be leader of the Labor party.

Today he took responsibility for going back on his word, saying three things had made him change his stand. These were requests from his colleagues, his belief that the Australian people deserved a competitve choice at the election, and his fear that without that Tony Abbott would win the greatest landslide since federation.

In the enthusiasm of tonight Rudd’s so flagrantly breaking his word is lost – seen as one of those things politicians do in these circumstances. Nevertheless it may fuel the cynicism in an already cynical electorate.

Bill Shorten’s deathknock (though not entirely unexpected) announcement that he was switching sides was important and symbolic – and also involved going back on his word. Only a few hours before the ballot his spokeswoman said he hadn’t changed position.

Shorten’s subdued mood was a massive contrast to three years ago when he helped mastermind, from a Canberra restaurant, the coup against Rudd.

Shorten made no public comments after the ballot.

For him it has been one of the most difficult times in his career. He has been agonising over what to do for the past three weeks, consulting widely. Sources say he only made a final decision in the last day or so, informing the PM late today.

He decided, as he said publicly, that a leadership change was in the best interests of the party, and that it was desirable to be straight with his colleagues.

One factor in his thinking was believed to be the prospect of Tony Abbott getting control of the Senate.

As a future leader of the opposition, it is in Shorten’s interest for Rudd to save as much of the furniture as possible and for the Senate to be kept in a combination of Labor-Green hands rather than swinging to the right.

Shorten did not seek anything from Rudd and nothing was offered.

Rudd will lift Labor’s primary vote, now 29% in this week’s Newspoll. The issue will be by how much - Abbott remains the election favourite.

The new PM is faced with an extraordinarily formidable task in reconstituting the government, pulling the party together, articulating a compelling agenda and fighting an election campaign.

He has to get ministers into key position immediately. Chris Bowen is set to be treasurer. Unfortunately Martin Ferguson, one of those who quit after the March leadership debacle, can’t be brought back because he has already announced his retirement from parliament.

Rudd has said nothing as yet about the election date. If he goes for a poll earlier than Gillard’s September 14 timetable, he will answer the prayers of many Australians.

An earlier date would also assist him with the immediate problems of division and disarray - the pressure will be on for unity – and it also would make maximum use of the honeymoon.

Julia Gillard has helped Rudd by her declaration that she would resign. Time will tell whether Rudd will be victim of leaks during the campaign, as she was, but there will be less motivation because there will be no one on a comeback course.

Rudd’s best quality is his public popularity.

In his news conference he condemned the negativity that has characterised federal politics and declared “I see my role as PM in forging consensus wherever I can”.

But he will not be able to get through just on popularity and generalities and uplifting rhetoric.

He faces tricky questions of policy. The first is what he does about the Gonski school funding program, which Gillard was talking up in parliament today.

Gillard has only two states signed up. Rudd is known to be sceptical about the program, and concerned about its expense. But if he wants to dump it that will be messy, the legislation passed parliament today.

More intractable is the problem of the boats. The opposition can blame Rudd for the restarting of the trade. Maybe he can dodge some of that but what is he going to propose to get the problem under control?

He also has to counter Abbott’s attacks on the carbon tax, by recalibrating the whole issue of carbon pricing - perhaps by promising to bring forward the trading scheme, which would lower the price.

Rudd tonight flagged a strategy of appealing to the youth vote and seeking to improve relations with business.

To young people he said: “I understand why you have switch off. It is hardly a surprise. But I want to ask you to please come back and listen afresh … With your energy, we can start cooking with gas.”

His pitch to business was: “I want to work closely with you. I have worked with you closely in the past, particularly during the GFC … We came through because we worked together. I am saying it loud and clear to businesses, large and small across the country, in partnership we can do great things for the country’s future”.

In her news conference Gillard mentioned the challenge of the hung parliament as well as party divisions for making her three years difficult.

Earlier, the two country independents Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott, who have kept her government afloat, announced they would not recontest their seats.

Their decision is an appropriate epitaph for this strange parliament, which sits for the last time tomorrow.

PS This is the second time that a dog called Reuben living at the Lodge has lost his elite accommodation. The first Reuben was owned by Paul Keating, defeated at the 1996 election. Coups are tough all round.

Join the conversation

138 Comments sorted by

  1. Bryce Cassin

    Lecturer in Nursing at University of Western Sydney

    Our national poet sums it up well: "When I was King, the second time... I was a king who held the reins, and I had brains, and what was more, I was a man, called to the throne in stormy times, I had to fight, and not with rhymes, my own self and kindred first, and after that my friends and foes, and when I'd fairly conquered those, I ruled the land a king indeed... I'll show the fools just once that I can look as well as be a king"
    (When I was King, Henry Lawson, 1905)

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    1. Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

      Boss

      In reply to Bryce Cassin

      Thank you Bryce, astute choice of quotation.

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  2. Lee Emmett

    Guest House Manager

    Julia Gillard's speech on 'blue ties' seems strangely prophetic. RIP integrity.

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    1. Chris Harper

      Engineer

      In reply to Lee Emmett

      RIP integrity? Really? It died and was ripped to pieces repeatedly, time after time, in the last three years.

      What is just one more time?

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    2. N Wilson

      Biologist

      In reply to Chris Harper

      Integrity went from 2001, if indeed it was there before that. Once the Liberal Party worked out it could even get people to believe that parents were throwing their children into the open ocean just by saying it, they have urinated from a good height on integrity.

      The ALP's problem is that it follows the Liberal Party (and their useless puppies, the National Party) down in the bottom feeding.

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  3. Russell Jones

    logged in via Facebook

    I reckon that the best chance for Labor now would be for Kevin Rudd also to step down, so that they could unite behind a new non-divisive leader. It would certainly throw off the coalition strategy, but it's much too bizarre ever to be considered .......

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    1. Robert Tony Brklje
      Robert Tony Brklje is a Friend of The Conversation.

      retired

      In reply to Russell Jones

      Reality here is that Gillard was tossed out by her own supporters because they knew that a bunch of them would get wiped out depending upon how big Labour's loss was to going to be. Rather than follow their appointed leader down the drain in a major shift in power from the right in labour to the left.
      The labour party is pretty much split between government employee unions versus private industry unions and social democrats. The labour party needs to attract more social democrats and it will best do this by working with the Green Party, rather than attacking it.

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  4. Greg North

    Retired Engineer

    Julia got her three years up and it would be interesting to know whether that will affect the pension.

    Meanwhile she might feel especially foolish parachuting Bob Carr in who from his words with Tony Jones on Lateline would seem to have had something on the go for some time.
    Carr says that what were up until tonight asylum seekers are now quite clearly economic refugees using people smugglers and that topic will be Big on the talkfest with Indonesia.

    Could we be seeing some dramatic policy changes that even Julia would not have dreamed of introducing or maybe she was keeping them inder the wraps and so Kevin and Carr are now using her new thoughts rather than the the coalitions.

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    1. Steve Phillips

      Nurse Practitioner

      In reply to Greg North

      I read the words of a commentator tonight who says that "Rudd will have to go to war with Labor itself". A fair comment.

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    2. Chris Harper

      Engineer

      In reply to N Wilson

      N. Wison,

      Campaigns of destabilisation of the government is what happens in democracies, all the time.

      To complain about that is to complain that we are allowed to criticise the government.

      A competent government will survive nontheless. If the government doesn't survive criticies, well, draw your own conclusions.

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    3. N Wilson

      Biologist

      In reply to Chris Harper

      Much of the media, like much of the whipped up electorate, has gone feral. They were both screeching 'Ditch the Bob Brown's Bitch Witch' stuff to breaking point, albeit sometimes using milder words or even pretending the obsession with the ALP leadership is reportage.

      I admit to being cursed with a mutation in my political and social genome, which makes me still bit naively idealistic, so I plaintively hope for a media that actually does its critical job in a democracy responsibly. As it used to, in part anyway. It still might online, but does but not much in the dreaded print MSM, in shallow TV news, on the Murdoch-cloned ABC Online etc.

      Dare I say that you have a different mutation producing naivety in thinking that competency in government is enough. The ALP simply haven't been that bad, given that any government exists in the context of its times.

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    4. susan walton

      logged in via email @live.com.au

      In reply to N Wilson

      "I plaintively hope for a media that actually does its critical job in a democracy responsibly."

      Didn't we have one of those types of reporters awhile back?

      I believe his name was Julian Assange. He didn't actually care how he got his info, or who it affected, the facts are he told the truth, and look where that got him.

      Do you really think there are too many out there that would wish to follow in his footsteps? I doubt it..therefore we are forced to rely on the copycat ( and often drivel) type stories we see in the media now.

      No-one really stood up for Assange did they...not after the initial flurry of excitement, and certainly not Julia Gillard who likened him to a criminal.

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  5. Wade Macdonald

    Technician

    Great title Grattan...I enjoy the 'Game of Thrones' series and this is representative of a modern day version.

    Can't wait for the next twist in this saga...!

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    1. Michael Shand

      Software Tester

      In reply to Michelle Grattan

      Kudo's to replying to a comment Michelle, its the first I have seen you do and is much appreciated

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  6. Leigh Burrell

    Trophy hunter at Trophy hunter

    Mcterran is on a 457 visa and now probably out of a job. 28 days for him to find work or get lost.

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    1. Leigh Burrell

      Trophy hunter at Trophy hunter

      In reply to Leigh Burrell

      McTernan...

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    2. Jeff Payne

      PhD in Political Science and Masters in Public Policy

      In reply to Leigh Burrell

      I'm a little disappointed Leigh. With all this going on this is all you've got!? What about the something like . . . the marxist Labor politburo changes Great Leaders in a move reminiscent of the removal of Lenin by Stalin!!!

      Just a joke!

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    3. Leigh Burrell

      Trophy hunter at Trophy hunter

      In reply to Jeff Payne

      Shades of Stalin in the latest purge, no doubt about that, Jeff, though I'm not sure the Marxism fits in. Rudd's xenophobic backflip on 457 visas today says "socialism in one country" is where they're headed. Honestly, how the hell do you backflip less than 24 hours after taking office? That's got to be some kind of record.

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  7. Comment removed by moderator.

    1. ian cheong

      logged in via email @acm.org

      In reply to Valerie Kay

      Seriously? Who lost her way starting with the "real Julia" in the election campaign and the "there will be not carbon tax"? Not to mention the removal of a sitting PM before that....

      Wouldn't matter what gender that person was - anyone responsible for it would be pushing credibility uphill for a long time.

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    2. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Valerie Kay

      Don't know about Michelle Valerie and why not consider first if there are any real parallels other than a sitting PM being deposed.

      First off, just over three years ago Julia in consort with some unionists and unionist connected MPs conspired with some secrecy against Kevin R.

      This time around Rudd and others have been openly conspiring to the extent that Julia has always been in the drivers seat even if Shorty took a wheel off.

      I think it could be said that survival instinct kicked in and Shorty is the one who found he still had a dagger to use.
      The media report and in doing so provide feedback as much as they can do for the encampments on how the oppositions are doing.

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    3. Valerie Kay

      PhD candidate, public health

      In reply to John Phillip

      I've previously written a 60,000 word Masters thesis which explored gender issues in twentieth century Australia in some detail (accepted by Monash university), but it seems like you guys (you and the two above) would not be interested in a serious discussion about feminism so I won't go on.

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    4. Valerie Kay

      PhD candidate, public health

      In reply to John Phillip

      Do you want to read the thesis and then engage with it? Happy for you to so. You can contact me through Monash.

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    5. John Phillip
      John Phillip is a Friend of The Conversation.

      Grumpy Old Man

      In reply to Valerie Kay

      Valerie, it was a cheap shot - sorry. I was more than a little frustrated hat, after writing such a work, which by its nature would focus on power relationships and hierarchies, you would choose to use that same 'system' to position yourself as the 'expert', implicitly denying the views of myself and the other respondents their validity. If it comes down to who has the most academic qualifications, The Conversation could not exist. We'd all just post our quals and listen only to the 'highest rank…

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    6. Valerie Kay

      PhD candidate, public health

      In reply to John Phillip

      I wasn't trying to put you down by referring to my academic qualifications, I was responding to you telling me that I didn't know what feminism was. Thanks for your apology, I appreciate it. However you should be aware that this is not the first time that I have been told by a man on The Conversation (and other supposedly thoughtful websites) that I don't know what I'm talking about. In some cases, as in yours, this is later followed by an apology. Maybe this is because my comments make them angry…

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    7. Valerie Kay

      PhD candidate, public health

      In reply to John Phillip

      Also just a word of warning - always be careful in assuming whether or not a woman may have experienced violence. We don't all talk about it, but you should remember that many women have.

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  8. ian cheong

    logged in via email @acm.org

    Labor looks like having two PMs never to sit a full term - KRudd and JGillard. Surely what is needed is for them to ditch the poll-driven lunacy this indicates.

    Labor still needs it root and branch reform to embed proper principles of democracy and responsiveness to grass roots members. So will it be before the election or after???

    I didn't realise Shorten was one of the faceless men. Clearly then, he won't be the one to try to initiate reform that disempowers the faceless men.

    Still looks like a long way back. KRudd would be foolish to rush to an election with so much to do in so little time. Time for fixed election terms and dates to stop this manipulative nonsense.

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    1. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to ian cheong

      " I didn't realise Shorten was one of the faceless men. " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Oh Ian, where have you been for the last three years or at least three years ago.

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    2. N Wilson

      Biologist

      In reply to Greg North

      I am curious how Shorten can still be faceless if nearly everyone knows what he looks like and Liberal types have been accusing him of shadowy manipulation for a long time. If he was doing similar in the Liberal Party he would be called a 'powerbroker', not the pejorative 'faceless' tag for doing the same thing.

      He has much more face than those pulling the strings in the Liberal Party. Or my grandfather who was a real 'faceless man' for the Liberal Party in NSW for many years decades ago.

      Yes, they do have them and they are virulent - just witness the rorted process to remove the decent Garry Humphries on the ACT Senate ticket in favour of a harder right party hack.

      "Labor Faceless Men" is just another 3 word slogan to be parroted endlessly. It doesn't mean much because it isn't a point of difference between the ALP and the Liberal Party.

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  9. Yuri Pannikin

    Director

    For Julia, something about the sword . . .

    Good to see Bill Shorten show some guts. A very difficult decision. Half forgiven.

    Incidentally, when is the ABC going to pension Barrie Cassidy off to 4 Corners with Kerry? He's not been right about anything for years, and his enmity towards Rudd is palpable. But I have to say, the other ABC political journos have been excellent.

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    1. Jeff Payne

      PhD in Political Science and Masters in Public Policy

      In reply to Yuri Pannikin

      Yuri, I would love to be able to forgive Bill. I once thought he was the right mix of sincerity and charisma (though perhaps lacking in intellect), along the lines of Hawke, that would truly revitalize Labor. Then he was part of the removal of Rudd. After this I thought of him as a shrewd strategist twisting his way towards leadership by whatever means it took. His shift last night only shows the way to redemption. Like Christian in Pilgrims Progress, there is a long road ahead of him from the 'City…

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    2. Yuri Pannikin

      Director

      In reply to Jeff Payne

      Yes Jeff, redemption may still be possible for Bill. For many of us, though, we wait and watch.

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  10. Peter Lang

    Retired geologist and engineer

    I am really angry at the ABC's partisanship. On ABC1 last night they showed speeches by Gillard, Swan, Rudd and Albanese, but did not shows the speech by Tony Abbott. Instead, they continued with a boring interview with a Tony Jones interviews with Bob Carr right through Abbott's speech.

    This is really bad that taxpayers are paying for such partisan behaviour from the public broadcaster.


    I happened to have seen the first part of Tony Abbott's speech on Prime, then found the rest on ABC24, but throughout the live broadcast ABC1 showed the Tony Jones interview with Bob Carr.

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    1. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Peter Lang

      From what Carr said about economic refugees and people smugglers it'll be interesting to see what sort of a song Rudd is going to sing to Susilo Bambang if he goes banging on over there at all.

      You have to laugh though for Carr reckons things have changed and I suppose that more and more are coming because of Labor policies is something of a change or at least moving up a gear to accelerate.

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    2. Dianna Arthur

      Environmentalist

      In reply to Peter Lang

      Right, Peter, because last night's caucus meeting was all about Labor's internal machinations and the ABC should have broadcast the leader of the Liberal Party's speech.... for reasons of of fairness and balance?

      Like whenever the ABC interviews an astronomer they always follow up with an astrologer or flat-earther, right?

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  11. Greg North

    Retired Engineer

    " Six cabinet ministers have quit the frontbench – Wayne Swan, Greg Combet, Stephen Conroy, Peter Garrett, "

    PG leaving does raise an interesting issue that could be a bit pinky.

    Will he for instance do some singing not so much about our beds are burning but house roofs and houses and who knew what and did nothing about the oversight fiasco that turned to tragedy.

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    1. Yuri Pannikin

      Director

      In reply to Greg North

      Of those quitting the front bench, only one will be missed. (And don't be surprised to see him pop up in another portfolio sooner or later.)

      Guess who?

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    2. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Yuri Pannikin

      Combet might get a guernsey somewhere , much later I expect.

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    3. Yuri Pannikin

      Director

      In reply to Greg North

      That's very astute of you, but at the same time it shows that there's nowhere to hide for the others.

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  12. Barry Van Es

    Financial Planner

    Will RUDD retain more seats than the other PM would have, um yes. QED

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  13. Michael Bolan

    Systems practicioner

    We must remember the role of the media in the various debacles of the last 3 years. Why is reporting focussed on politicians and parties? Isn't the key point for government to concern itself with the needs of Australians? And what about the system and structure of government - are parties focussed on workers and conservatism really relevant in turbulent times?

    None of these issues is truly canvassed or debated, indeed a 'debate' seems to have come to mean the publication of press releases coupled with editorial comment. If the mainstream media won't focus on Australians and on what is needed to Australia to achieve major change...who will?

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    1. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Michael Bolan

      " Isn't the key point for government to concern itself with the needs of Australians? "
      That should be the case Michael and yet as Tony Abbott has reminded Labor of their own Paul Keatings words " If you cannot govern yourselves, how can you expect to govern the country "
      is very apt.

      For Julia Gillard, she herself has said that she has had two opponents, Abbott in opposition and Rudd never exiled.

      The media has rightly enough kept the leadership tussle front and centre when it has been front and centre for if a government is being distracted from governing, it is relevant to highlight that.

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  14. Comment removed by moderator.

  15. Greg North

    Retired Engineer

    Queenslander, Queenslander, Queenslander!

    Rudd shows the way.

    And didn't the Maroons flog the Blues

    Then Watto backs in favour as opener.

    Not too sure about the latter and as for poor ol Wayne, you could say he has spent a lot, well and truly spent the poor bloke is.

    And then ol Pie Face himself just couldn't help himself to attempting to get some more pie for yes Pete the pie eater Beattie was downtown in Canberra!

    Maybe Watto, Wayne and Pete aren't such good omens for it being a Queenslander final outcome.

    And then what was Jessica Rudd doing trying to get into the Caucus room and I wounder whether she was actually allowed in.

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  16. Brendan Bonsack

    logged in via email @clockworkmonkey.com

    I know it's just a bit of journalistic wordplay, but "extremely bloody and there are bodies all over the place" seems to me a bit disrespectful to citizens in other parts of the world where a change of leader is sadly accompanied by exactly that. This latest spill should give us pause to reflect that we are fortunate to live in one of the most peaceful democracies in the world and this is really just a piece of bureaucratic maneuvering, conspicuously free from teargas and roadside bombs.

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    1. Sean Lamb

      Science Denier

      In reply to Gavin Moodie

      "Rudd rewarded for his disgraceful behaviour."
      Being disgracefully popular?
      "Gillard has behaved much better for her party."
      Being nobly unpopular?

      If Gillard had run a successful government no one would have cared what Rudd did or said.
      I don't see how knocking off a leader when a rogue poll shows the party just slipping once under the 2pp vote (in the middle of a massive ad campaign by the miners) is behaving well to the party, but knocking off a leader when the party as been sitting at 45-55 for years on the polls is disgraceful behaviour.
      Gillard framed her justification to seizing the leadership around Newspoll, eventually she succumbed to the same logic.

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  17. Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

    Boss

    We should privatise the Federal Government.
    First out the door with an old black hard hat should be opportunist Shorten.
    We need workplace reform to compete in the World. Now.

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    1. Michael Shand

      Software Tester

      In reply to Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

      "We need workplace reform to compete in the World" - Yes you are quite right, we can't compete with workers in foreign lands that will work for less than a dollar a day

      We should abolish the minimum wage, HS regulation, pensions, and all other workers rights to be competitive with other 3rd world countrys

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    2. Rick Sullivan

      Vast and Various

      In reply to Michael Shand

      Yes, Geoffrey. A vote for The Liberal Party would give Abbott, Hockey and Gina their best shot to achieve all of that.

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    3. Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

      Boss

      In reply to Michael Shand

      Thanks for your private guilt list,. Do you have a practical solution to make us competitive? It might be the biggest issue we face.

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    4. Michael Bolan

      Systems practicioner

      In reply to Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

      I'd suggest that it is government and their structures/systems that is holding Australia back.

      Hundreds of thousands of pages of legislation, many different for each state requiring massive compliance efforts from business, 3 tiers of bureaucratic and unaccountable government, lawyers and accountants as Ministers in charge of complex portfolios like health and the environment, an education system that produces nearly 50% illiterate graduates, a tax system that urgently needs change, a politicised public service at all levels...the list is very long. Coupled with a biased media (bias controlled by the owner(s)) with a focus on earning through advertising - surely it's not a surprise that we have productivity problems?

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    5. Peter Lang

      Retired geologist and engineer

      In reply to Michael Bolan

      In 6 years Labor has imposed 30,000 new regulations. These constrain business and industry, reduce Australian business' competitiveness and retard economic growth.

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    6. Michael Shand

      Software Tester

      In reply to Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

      Your not actually interested in my suggestions, your only interested in cutting wages, cutting healthcare, cutting education, cutting social services, cutting unemployment benefits, cutting workplace health and saftey regulations, cutting regulations that pertain to consumer protection, cut environmental regulation, etcetera etcetera

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    7. Michael Shand

      Software Tester

      In reply to Peter Lang

      If your only focus is on making profit then yes - regulations that protect companies from dumping industrial waste on your property do impact there profitability as they know have to manage this waste responsibly

      So if your only focus is on profit then any regulation is bad - Regulations that protect against scams and pyrimad schemes also stop economic progress

      Really, what are you trying to achieve - if your only goal is a quick buck then go for it, bring back asbestos - its cheap, effecient, and will allow business to be more competitive.....I mean it may kill a few poor people but thats not your concern is it

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    8. Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

      Boss

      In reply to Michael Shand

      Michael, I do not read posts by juvenile spellers who use Your instead of You're. Can't spell, follows that you can't think.
      I make an occasional typo because I'm a large person with a large hand size and a small virtual keyboard. But they are not systematically indicative of ignorance.

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    9. Rex Gibbs

      Engineer/Director

      In reply to Michael Shand

      And I am interested in employing people who can write a cogent grammatically correct sentence and can spell! Did 30,000 new regulations achieve a lot - or not?. One need not cut necessary services while dumping time wasters

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    10. Michael Shand

      Software Tester

      In reply to Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

      "Can't spell, follows that you can't think." - yes attack the spelling the grammer the presentation the font the size of the font

      Anything except the ideas expressed because thats what mature adults do

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    11. Michael Shand

      Software Tester

      In reply to Rex Gibbs

      "Did 30,000 new regulations achieve a lot - or not?." - what an asinine question - did you expect a yes or no for this? you want to evaluate 30,000 piece's of regulation with a yes or a no

      Such maturity, you can always count on those who have no argument to attack their counterpart on the most superficial and shallow basis - ohh spelling and font weren't to your liking - cry me a river

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    12. Michael Shand

      Software Tester

      In reply to Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

      "spell, follows that you can't think. - make an occasional typo" - hey Geoff by your own standards, you suggest that you can't think?

      I wouldn't be so hard on yourself nor so hyperbolic

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    13. Chris Harper

      Engineer

      In reply to Michael Shand

      Michael,

      Don't you mean hyperbowlic?

      We learnt from those sycophantic folk at the Macquarie dictionary that Ms Gillards word usage is the very definition of correct word usage.

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    14. Michael Shand

      Software Tester

      In reply to Chris Harper

      "hyperbowlic?

      We learnt from those sycophantic folk at the Macquarie dictionary that Ms Gillards word usage is the very definition of correct word usage."

      That refference is completely lost on me sorry, why are you calling the people who work for Macquarie Dictionary sycophants? That's pretty ironic to use such extreme language whilst talking about hyperbole

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    15. Chris Harper

      Engineer

      In reply to Michael Shand

      Michael,

      Sorry, combining two instances.

      There was the Macquarie dictionary folk having their emergency meeting where they decided to change their printed definition of 'misogyny' to incorporate Ms Gillards - by their definition - otherwise incorrect usage of the word, and there was also her televised pronunciation of 'hyperbole' as 'hyperbowl'.

      I referred to the, all female, committee at Macquarie as sycophants because the word fits.

      Seriously? Changing the printed dictionary definition of a word so the Prime Minister doesn't look foolish? The words 'independent' and 'gravitas' just don't seem to fit the situation.

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    16. Michael Shand

      Software Tester

      In reply to Chris Harper

      "Changing the printed dictionary definition of a word so the Prime Minister doesn't look foolish?" - This is a strange conspiracy theory

      You know that this is how they update the dictionary right?

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    17. Chris Harper

      Engineer

      In reply to Michael Shand

      "You know that this is how they update the dictionary right?"

      No, not normally. That they did it on this occasion is why I labeled it sycophantic.

      When you next use Google try the search terms - 'Macquarie' 'Misogyny' 'Gillard'.

      Normally these things are handled in a sort of dry and academic way, As you sorta imply, it is not normal to summon an extraordinary meeting, outside the normal deliberative process, to determine and pronounce on the redefinition of a single word - whether that word is suddenly in the news or not.

      As I said, sycophants, and a corruption of process for political purposes.

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    18. Michael Shand

      Software Tester

      In reply to Chris Harper

      All seems pretty damn reasonable to me - why do you have this entrenched prejudice against this women?

      I did that search and this is what I found, again, seems perfectly reasonable

      "You're not really saying they [misogynists] have a pathological sickness, that they should be on a psychiatrist's couch discussing their early relations with their mother or anything like that," she said.

      "They don't have this hatred that extends to all women.

      "They merely have what we think of as sexism, an entrenched prejudice against women."

      Ms Butler says Ms Gillard's use of the word prompted the rethink."

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  18. Will Hunt

    Farmer

    What a shambles, the Titanic has hit the iceberg. The first mate, navigator, bosun, purser, chief steward are all off in a lifeboat, the former captain lying on the floor with a knife between her ribs and Kaptain Krudd is leaping up and down- "I will steer this ship to harbour"

    What planet is he on?

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  19. Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

    Boss

    There should be a probity check on how Rudd's missus got so rich so quick. Was she helped by people in office?

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    1. Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

      Boss

      In reply to Rick Sullivan

      Rick, well, yes.
      From what I can discern, the main initial money was made from Government payments for placing people in employment. If the work was able to generate so much money for the placer, in so short a time, then we should have no unemployment at all. It does not seem to figure.
      If there is no misconduct, a probity check is not to be feared. I'd give an immediate OK to any official request for one into my doings.

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    2. Andrew Stiles

      Teacher

      In reply to Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

      On top of all her amazing charity work has evidently helped the multitudes into work. Pretty incredible. It's this sort of success story which shows the system is working wonderfully. She and Kevin make an amazing power couple and an example of what everyone should be striving towards if they weren't (to paraphrase Gina) so darned lazy and hooked on vices.

      And as Clive Palmer cleverly pointed out, the rich are too wealthy to be corrupted. They have attained a level of unimpeachable purity. Unlike the rest of us corruptible scum.

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  20. David Stephens

    Writer and activist

    One well-known measure of psychopathy assesses glib and superficial charm, grandiosity, need for stimulation, pathological lying, cunning and manipulating, lack of remorse, callousness, poor behavioral controls, impulsivity, irresponsibility, denial, and failure to accept responsibility for one's own actions. We need to do more work on psychological types in politics.

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    1. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to David Stephens

      Perhaps we are a nation of psychopaths David, or at least too many of them all just too ready to accept the glib offerings from a master at work.
      Could it be the convict heritage or heritage from others coming from a place near where Jack lived that is at play?

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    2. Robert Tony Brklje
      Robert Tony Brklje is a Friend of The Conversation.

      retired

      In reply to David Stephens

      Perhaps before any person can run for public office they should face the same scrutiny people need to face when applying for any major position of employment.
      A full range of tests, including intelligence, knowledge, physical health and of course mental health with the full results available to the public in order for them as the employer to help choose which is the right person for that public office.
      Obviously psychopaths would be excluded by nature of their genetic mental defects and as there is already a test to detect psychopathy (it involves measuring brain waves during emotional response and control) that can not be faked, at least one problem with politics can be readily solved.

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  21. Peter Lang

    Retired geologist and engineer

    Labor continually elects nasty, devisive people as their leader; e.g. Keating, Latham, Rudd, Gillard, Rudd.

    And their back-ups are just as bad, Swan, Conroy, Shorten and the 'handbag hit squad' of misandrists on Emily's List. And the union leaders wanting to be the next wave of really nasty people, like Paul Howes of the AWU.

    Then of course there is the ABC, taxpayer funded publicity and propoganda arm of the ALP. It is di8sgracefully biased towards ALP and Greens: Leigh Sales, Chris Uhlman…

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    1. Yuri Pannikin

      Director

      In reply to Peter Lang

      Oh, boo hoo Mr Lang. And: "So it is disgraceful that ABC1 did not show the Tony Abbott speech"

      A Tony Abbot 'speech' is an oxymoron.

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    2. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Peter Lang

      The day and the year will hopefully get better for you Peter.
      At least Leigh Sales last night did ask Chris Uhlman if he knew what the SOO score was, at just about full time.
      It was Queenslander, Queenslander and well a few by the names of Swan, Emmerson and Ludwig getting injured.

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    3. Chris Harper

      Engineer

      In reply to Yuri Pannikin

      Yuri,

      Didn't you learn anything in Ms Gillards downfall? It is this baseless abuse of others which led to her downfall.

      For the LNP, the best thing you can do is keep on keeping it up.

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    4. Yuri Pannikin

      Director

      In reply to Chris Harper

      I wholeheartedly agree, Mr Chris Harper . . . except you seem to have confused criticism with abuse. Got a dictionary handy?

      Incidentally, it wasn't baseless, but at the same time, I do recognise TA's academic and athletic achievements. He is a stayer (unfortunately).

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  22. M Lovejoy

    Citizen

    I am so tired of journalists telling voters what ought to be happening in politics, and when, in their opinions. Your job is to report the facts, not gossip, the opinions of other journalists, rumours or personalities. Corinne Grant on this topic: http://thehoopla.com.au/politics-dumbing-begun/
    The scariest thing is that this person is a professorial fellow. Is she responsible for teaching students the profession of journalism? No wonder you as a group are so disrespected in the community.

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  23. Greg North

    Retired Engineer

    It is one thing to be King and yet it needs to be asked what can the King do that the Queen could not when it comes to helping the country along.

    Much of our existing debt and continuation of defict budgetting we can thank Kevin's approach for and that was from one who claims to be a fiscal conservative.
    Somehow I wounder whether he really wants to remembers how he was doing a lot of cost cutting for Wayne Goss when he was Premier of Queensland.

    Peter Beattie is trying to get a look in down…

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  24. James Hill

    Industrial Designer

    We are now in election mode to choose a new government.
    Will the journalists notice?

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    1. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to James Hill

      No doubt about it James and Tony Jones was certainly somewhat taken aback by Bob Carr's comments on those pesky economic refugees using people smugglers and how it has all changed.

      But then Carr could be a bit like a Ford, a board on four wheels and guaranteed to go if you push it.
      Like, it only changed about five and a half years ago when Kevin from Queensland came along to help!

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    2. James Hill

      Industrial Designer

      In reply to Greg North

      Yes Kevin certainly helped Campbell Newman, launching a destablising leadership bid in the middle of a State election campaign.

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  25. Chris Harper

    Engineer

    Ding dong the ...

    Oh,

    Sorry,

    That isn’t abusively misogynist only if it’s progressives spitting it in celebration of the death of an elderly lady.

    Me? I am sorry she is gone. It would have been cathartic to watch her struggling to be gracious in her concession speech towards the decent man she viciously maligned time and time again.

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    1. Chris Harper

      Engineer

      In reply to Rick Sullivan

      Yes, I dare say you did. The real world, outside the cesspit of abusive hatemongering which was the Gillard bunker.

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    2. Rick Sullivan

      Vast and Various

      In reply to Chris Harper

      "The real world, outside the cesspit of abusive hatemongering which was the Gillard bunker."
      "Cesspit...abusive...hatemongering". Wow. An Abbott fan then? I rest my case.

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    3. Chris Harper

      Engineer

      In reply to Rick Sullivan

      Sorry? Lets count the number of race riots Tony Abbott's office initiated in an attempt to smear Julia Gillard, then we can count the number her office initiated.

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    4. Rick Sullivan

      Vast and Various

      In reply to Chris Harper

      So you reckon Tony was maybe right then? Revving up the crowd with 'Ditch the bitch/witch' placards? He's had some lovely supporters too: "chaff bag, out to sea", "father died of shame", that menu...and the list goes on. Indeed a 'Decent man' with 'decent' supporters.

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    5. Chris Harper

      Engineer

      In reply to Rick Sullivan

      Rick,

      More to the point, I am pointing out how deep the hypocrisy which is at the centre of so much progressive rhetoric. Julia Gillard was treated with kid gloves compared to the bile which was, and is, poured on conservative leaders as a matter of course.

      The gender based abuse which was spat at Margaret Thatcher by the compassionate progressives would have given any Emily's lister an attack of the vapours.

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  26. John Knowles Stretch

    Arid Rangeland resident

    Enjoy Kevin Michelle, while I take time out for him to bite dust a second time.

    I had the stomach for Wayne & Julia, just as I do for Malcolm T. These other blue tie shites in the cockpit just leave me cold!

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  27. Ronald Ostrowski

    logged in via Facebook

    Last night I flicked channels between the football and ABC24. On the football channel I saw substance in a sporting contest, on ABC24 I saw gleeful so called political journalist and commentator chuckleheads deliver a poor man's version of 'Big Brother' or the "Biggest Loser'. It seems these chuckleheads are now saying that Gillard will probably be remembered well in history, and, to my great dying embarrassment as an Australian, they also said that there was substance to people not listening…

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    1. Geoff Sharrock

      Program Director, LH Martin Institute at University of Melbourne

      In reply to Ronald Ostrowski

      Ronald, most of the points you (and others, though note they're remarkably silent in this space today) have been making about Michelle Grattan's recent reporting of internal divisions within the ALP reflect a largely partisan sense of distress arising from the authority vacuum that Julia Gillard's prime ministership has been struggling with. For many people, quite a few of the 'achievements' on your list are initiatives that look unaffordable or unworkable or both. On top of that, internal divisions…

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    2. Ronald Ostrowski

      logged in via Facebook

      In reply to Geoff Sharrock

      Geoff, in all of the three years of this successful Minority Government precisely what issues of import to the voting public have been properly analysed and debated in the fourth estate? I see very little of it indeed. I do acknowledge the authority vacuum you point to courtesy of Rudd staying in Parliament and the leaking shenanigans of the Ruddites, and the negative impact this had on public perceptions of a Government’s control. However, my point is that if this female PM was given more oxygen…

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    3. Geoff Sharrock

      Program Director, LH Martin Institute at University of Melbourne

      In reply to Ronald Ostrowski

      Thanks Ronald. Perhaps we could agree that if policy makers and commentators just stuck to their knitting, there would be fewer distractions and more important things would get done. On that note, gotta zip...

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    4. Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

      Boss

      In reply to Ronald Ostrowski

      Ronald. I'll take a guess on probability and say that you have absolutely no credible evidence that Mrs Rinehart has not influenced media reporting at all and that you have no evidence that she has.
      If a citizen tries to get evidence of media manipulation through complaints or FOI to the broadcaster, the shutters go up so fast that the matter is essentially never clarified to the complainant. I've tried it. Have you?

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    5. Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

      Boss

      In reply to Geoff Sharrock

      Geoff Sharrock,
      Were you as a citizen given a decent opportunity to input into the policy precursor discussions on any of these major initiatives? I was not.
      Parliaments are elected to discharge the will of the majority of citizens, on matters where a collective approach is superior to a fragmented one. Also, the action has to be enabled by the words and spirit of the Constitution. How were pink batts enabled?

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    6. Geoff Sharrock

      Program Director, LH Martin Institute at University of Melbourne

      In reply to Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

      GHS, I would not expect to have such input. By electing governments we delegate most such decisions to them, holding them to their stated policies but allowing them room to adjust in response to changing circumstances; and in the face of a looming crisis such as the GFC, rapidly so. Otherwise you get The Rise and Rise of Michael Rimmer.

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    7. Chris Harper

      Engineer

      In reply to Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

      GHS,

      Gee, a private citizen may have influenced media reporting.

      Really?

      And why shouldn't they? Everyone is free to do that should they get the opportunity and have the inclination, and I see no reason it should be any different.

      As to FOI re the broadcasters, a private organisation is entitled to keep its information to itself without government interference. An FOI to the ABC, a taxpayer funded organisation, should result in a prompt and open disclosure. but If a FOI request to Fairfax gets you precisely zilch, then that is as it should be.

      You have no basis for complaint on this, unless you are objecting to the very concept of private property.

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  28. Steve Walz

    logged in via Facebook

    Forget Origin games, politics must be the toughest game of all.

    Polls turned against Rudd, Gillard punched him in the face - took his job.

    Rudd undermined his own party at every opportunity. Abbott mastered the primary job of Opposition - to oppose - and made fear and lies his stock in trade ("Whyalla will be wiped off the map", "the economy is overloaded with massive debt", "Carbon Tax will be a wrecking ball through the economy", "we can stop the boats"). Facts became irrelevant in almost…

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  29. Venise Alstergren
    Venise Alstergren is a Friend of The Conversation.

    photographer, blogger.

    Venise Alstergren
    Posted Thursday, 27 June 2013 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

    Last night,26 June, just before Act III of Graeme Murphy’s Swan Lake we got the news of Julia Gillard’s defeat. The music, acting, dancing seem to have aligned with the defeat of a brave and dignified woman. It was an emotional experience I will forever remember.

    As for the MSM,and others, they have earned the contempt that so many people feel for them. It took a Colombian newspaper to say it like it was…Australia was…

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    1. Chris Harper

      Engineer

      In reply to Venise Alstergren

      Venise,

      The claim that Australia was not ready for a female PM is twaddle. Australians, in the main, don't care.

      What they were not willing to put up with was an abusive and incompetent PM - the gender really was irrelevant and was played up by her in an attempt to deflect otherwise well deserved criticism.

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    2. Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

      Boss

      In reply to Venise Alstergren

      Venise,
      The question on radio about the then PM's partner had serious implications that were overlooked in the rabid rush of revenge.
      In the history of the World since about 1800, there have been cases where National security has been threatened or compromised, as by espionage. History shows that many of the serious offenders were of indeterminate gender - and thus, by the standards of the times, open to blackmail more so than the straight person. Hostile countries would, as a matter of course, zero in on any pillow talk that might happen between the leader of a country and the pal.

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    3. susan walton

      logged in via email @live.com.au

      In reply to Venise Alstergren

      Mrs Howard was subjected to rumours of John's affair with Prue Goward...is was also said she was just there to fetch and carry for Mr Howard and was therefore a woman of no consequence...this was said by Mark Latham apparently and caused great hurt to Mrs Howard at the time. The remark omitted the fact that she was involved in numerous charities hands on.

      That rubbish with Sattler was handled so badly by Julie, she should have stopped the interview there and then..told that idiot he was out…

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    4. susan walton

      logged in via email @live.com.au

      In reply to Venise Alstergren

      You are cut and pasting your exact same comment on other conversations...do you really like your comment that much?

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    5. Yuri Pannikin

      Director

      In reply to Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

      "Indeterminate gender"? Wot, you mean like an alien?

      Okay, seriously Geoffrey of the 1800s, what do you mean: transvestites, hermaphrodites, intersex, 800 metre runners?

      Geez, the things we have to put up with in the name of democracy . . .

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    6. Venise Alstergren
      Venise Alstergren is a Friend of The Conversation.

      photographer, blogger.

      In reply to Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

      And your point?

      It reads as if you would consider anyone whose sexual appetites to be different to yours as a threat to national security.

      Of course you could always try growing up.

      BTW: A gay person in today's society is on a par with a philandering man or an unfaithful wife. I fail to see why one of them presents a greater threat that another one.

      Remember Guy Burgess and Donald Mclean? Burgess was a promiscuous homosexual trollop. Donald McClean was a married man. So wherein lies the difference?

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  30. Terry Mills

    lawyer retired

    Tony Abbott's comments this morning about Labor's faceless men sounded a bit hollow after Rudd was elected by a caucus majority of twelve compared to his own margin of one over Malcolm Turnbull.
    Abbott will find that his small target strategy will not work against Rudd who is a communicator with intellectual depth and will take the fight up to Abbott who will have to start focusing on policy something that he will find hard. Even this morning, when asked about policy he could only repeat that he would repeal the carbon tax and the MRRT, he would stop the boats and bring down the cost of living. I think Australians expect more than that, much more
    .

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    1. Yuri Pannikin

      Director

      In reply to Terry Mills

      Yep, Rudd will easily out-campaign Abbott on the hustings.

      Be afraid, Tony, very afraid.

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    2. Rick Sullivan

      Vast and Various

      In reply to Yuri Pannikin

      Yes Yuri. I actually hope to see more of Tony between now and the election (whenever that will be), especially live and unscripted where he gets the opportunity to trip over himself as he usually does. I sure hope he agrees to live debate with Kevin Rudd, and the sooner the better.

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    3. Geoffrey Henley

      Research Associate

      In reply to Rick Sullivan

      Rudd is all style and no substance. Labor can change its chief salesman but it's still trying to sell a dud product.

      The Krudd empire will soon be toppled.

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  31. Geoffrey Henley

    Research Associate

    How can anyone vote for this lot? How can they govern the Country when they can't even govern themselves?

    A party of deceivers and turncoats. Rudd lying several times to the electorate about never challenging Gillard again. Shorten becoming a turncoat to save his own skin. Half the Ministry gone by election day.

    Don't forget that is was the Rudd Government that switched on the green light to people smugglers and wasted billions of dollars of taxpayers money on unneeded school halls among other policy failures.

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    1. Yuri Pannikin

      Director

      In reply to Geoffrey Henley

      Oh no . . . not spending money on school halls for our children's education? You monster, Kevin. And what . . . helping us achieve the best defence globally against the GFC as well?

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    2. Geoffrey Henley

      Research Associate

      In reply to Yuri Pannikin

      Empty school halls won't do much for children's education. No real evidence that the stimulus package saved Australia from going into a depression. Just Labor indiscriminately wasting billions of dollars of taxpayers money.

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    3. N Wilson

      Biologist

      In reply to Geoffrey Henley

      Of course, you create the exaggerated spectre of 'depression' rather than recession (which was inevitable without action) to pretend there was no effect at all. Mistake or shabby trick? (Sounds like I am talking about Mr Abbott here as it happens...).

      There is 'real evidence' in ABS figures about public versus private investment for example over the critical 2008-09 period. This is one reason Nobel Prize winning economists, for example, like the intervention and conversely why Liberal supporters…

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    4. Geoffrey Henley

      Research Associate

      In reply to N Wilson

      "rather than recession (which was inevitable without action)"

      Easy to say but extremely difficult to prove.

      "This is one reason Nobel Prize winning economists, for example, like the intervention"

      You mean one left-leaning Nobel Prize winning economist Joseph Stiglist a keynesian merely giving an opinion. There is also a lot of economists, including a Nobel Laureate who have been highly critical of stimulus packages.

      The real evidence is that the Australian economy was buffered from the effects of the GFC by natural 'shock absorbers' such as the floating dollar and measures brought in by previous Governments with the stimulus having a minimal affect if any.

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    5. N Wilson

      Biologist

      In reply to Geoffrey Henley

      And I can say the same in reverse. Prove that the do nothing option would have been fine if you want to play word games.

      Go to the parliamentary library or the ABS and you can see that government investment was the bridge. Without it, things start to grind down. Why wouldn't we have gone into recession? The derided BER kept tradies in work and their suppliers until things picked up, and did so in a very decentralised way.

      It another case of Liberal supporters versus the world. Stimulus packages…

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  32. Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

    Boss

    Question time has just finished, the first for the Recycled PM. As in his first office, he avoided answering questions. When asked if Australians could expect to elect their next PM, rather than have the faceless men do the choice, he recited a list of past Coalition leaders, only one of whom was a PM. And he was elected by Constitutional process - John Howard.
    I do not relish another term of evasion of answers, not only from the Opposition, but also from the electorate. Very few of Labor's recent 'achievements' were given discussion by the populace.

    Ready reckoner: Whenever my wife and I hear of a billion dollar program, we say that's $100 out of our pockets. They are nearly empty by now, thanks to past grandiose promised coupled with systematic wastage.

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    1. John Perry

      Teacher

      In reply to Geoffrey Harold Sherrington

      "Whenever my wife and I hear of a billion dollar program, we say that's $100 out of our pockets"

      What a sad way to look at government investment in infrastructure. I have seen lots of new school buildings, both at my own school and when I visit other schools, and it has lifted them in so many different ways.

      I'm sick of people saying "They haven't lifted school results" as if there is supposed to be some immediate response. The benefits will be felt over the years and decades to come. If new, functional buildings aren't that important, why are the Liberals' favourite private schools constructing them all the time?!

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    2. susan walton

      logged in via email @live.com.au

      In reply to John Perry

      But are they massively over priced John Perry? are the private school building costed correctly and are they building the buildings they want...and not the buildings they are TOLD they must have, as in schools they needed new canteens but were given libraries.

      During the BER, I read of one small country school that desperately needed a canteen...only to be given the hugest library that would have suited a city school with 1,000 kids..whereas that particular school only had 100 or so kids. Their canteen was a kiosk more than a canteen and that is what they wanted.

      It was that sort of waste, I believe, that upset so many, plus the fact that all buildings supplied were massively over priced.

      It was the implementation and overseeing of the school buildings that was the major problem.

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  33. Terry Mills

    lawyer retired

    Tony Abbott brought on an MPI, a matter of public importance in the Parliament today, which he does all the time, not because there is a matter of public importance but it gives him an opportunity for a rant.
    Amusingly when Rudd responded, Abbott kept on heckling "name a date" evidently to have the PM name an election date. Unfortunately for Abbott, Rudd was just talking about being prepared to debate the opposition leader on the economy. when Abbott called out "name a date" Rudd hit back ," OK let's have the debate at the National Press Club on the economy,I'll get back to you with a date".
    So Abbott has locked himself in to a debate with Rudd on the management of the economy which I'm sure he doesn't really want to have.

    Should be interesting, watch this space.

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    1. Rick Sullivan

      Vast and Various

      In reply to Terry Mills

      Whoo hoo!! :) I cannot WAIT to see Tony making the usual ass of himself live. It will be worth recording so I can rewind and add up all the things he utters that are of actual substance. Won't take long.

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    2. susan walton

      logged in via email @live.com.au

      In reply to Rick Sullivan

      Oh I doubt you'd listen to him anyway, whatever he had to say. Your ears are rusted on and only hear what they want to hear. :)

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