Corruption is pervasive, diverse and present in almost all areas of society. From the “greed is good” heyday of the 1980s that encompassed the rise and fall of corporate high-flyers such as Christopher Skase, right through to the 2000s and the spectacular collapses of Enron and WorldCom in the US and HIH in Australia, the News of the World phone-hacking scandal, corruption seems to continue unabated.
The new year, filled as usual with good will and hope, proved no different. We are only half-way through February (not even the longest or cruellest month) and already we are confronted with the ICAC Investigation of alleged corruption in the financial and political affairs of Eddie Obeid, the ongoing saga of Craig Thomson, including criminal and civil charges, and now the staggering news of tsunami proportions: that the social compass of the nation, the holy grail of what’s good, decent and noble beyond the murkiness and double-dealings and back-stabbings of politics is also allegedly corrupt to the core.
According to the Australian Crime Commission’s ongoing investigation, sports corruption across all codes is rife with extensive links to organised crime and match-fixing. Who would have believed it? Yet we should not be surprised.
Plato the venerable philosopher anticipated corruption more than 2500 years ago. He foresaw what happens when power, deception, secrecy and concealment and the abuse of trust converge.
In the Republic, Glaucon asks Socrates who could be expected to behave justly if presented with the power to become invisible and do whatever one liked without fear of detection and punishment. The Myth of Gyges in Book 2 of Plato’s Republic is about corruption: a condition of total deception by which the unjust make themselves appear just and proper.
Plato labels this the “perfect injustice” appearing just when one is not. Gyges, a simple shepherd used a magical ring that rendered him invisible to take the place of a king. He used its power to gain authority, a position of trust, and to commit crimes under a cloak of invisibility that served his interest rather than the common good; all the while maintaining an outward pretence of justice and propriety. He did this with total impunity.
It is not inconceivable that if Gyges lived in Australia today, he might have also been awarded the Order of Australia for services to the public and the common good. Plato was not short on irony.
The financial and human costs of corruption have been and are enormous. Billions, if not trillions of dollars have been lost to both corporations and shareholders – in the case of Enron, employees who had invested most of their life savings in that company lost everything.
Reputations have been destroyed, lives turned upside down, and a number of heads of corporations and institutions have been imprisoned. Political corruption in the Watergate case forced President Nixon to resign. The social cost is incalculable: the loss of trust, which is essential for social cohesion and our democratic way of life.
And this brings us back to Plato. His Myth of Gyges clearly demonstrates how things can come apart and go terribly wrong for a society that allows conditions of perfect injustice to fester: an unwholesome collusion of power that involves the lack of accountability, the abuse of public trust, and an exclusive motive for self-gain that overrides the motive for the public good, all perpetrated in secrecy and under the pretence of “public propriety”.
Fortunately for us good journalism still exists to ferret out and expose corruption. Acting like a Platonic “guardian”, the Guardian brought the News of the World affair to light. Fairfax publications such as The Sydney Morning Herald and the Australian Financial Review, as well as News Limited’s The Australian, have also in recent days been providing in depth coverage and analysis of the ICAC Obeid investigation.
In an age where information has become a valuable marketable commodity we need good, vigilant and ethical journalism more than ever. We also need the inculcation of an ethical culture within all the estates of democracy – the government, the media, the police, the church and sport.
The moral of Plato’s Myth of Gyges is that ultimately behaving badly is bad for everyone including bad for one’s own self-interest. Being good is its own reward precisely because it pays to think and act ethically. Honest people may not have money to burn but neither do they get burned by greed for money and power.
Trevor Kerr
ISTP
Should people who write about trust hide their ties to religious dogma?
Cat Mack
logged in via Facebook
That's a bit unfair. The author's affiliations are clear. AND from a philosophical view - how exactly does this relate to the article? He is a Platonist.. so...?
Michael Shand
Michael Shand is a Friend of The Conversation.
Software Tester
Im no fan of superstitous thinking of any colour but I dont care if the author believes in Zenu, if it doesnt interfere with his public articles and he is writing articles like this then more power to him
Bill Budd
Lecturer, Researcher
Great Article and Timely. I think the Australian stance on corruption is entirely consistent with Plato's 'perfect injustice'. We give the impression of a state committed to strong anti-coruption policy but despite the theatre surrounding anti-corrpution cases, individuals found guilty of corrupt conduct in Australia only ever receive light sentences.
If found guilty, Obeid and MacDonald and Co. have stolen hundreds of millians of dollars from New South Wales citizens but based on previous history, sentencing will probably only consist of suspended gaol sentences, community service etc.
Maybe thats why they always seem to be smiling at the ICAC enquiry?
John Kerr
IT Education
Spot on, Bill. I too think that any punishment will be on the light side but, hold up a service station and take $100 and you'll be in the slammer for years. The delays in the Thompson case are also worthy of note as they represent "corruption" by a government clinging to power. It seems that our justice system is really there to keep the poor in check rather than to punish the rich for corrupt practices.
Evol Fayers
retired
You are exactly right Bill. There are two levels of corruption. Blue Collar and White Collar.
Blue Collar Corruption/Crime you go straight to jail and for a long time.
White Collar Corruption/Crime - the Government simply moves the goal posts, finds an excuse for the behavior and the crims walk away free to re-offend and generally do. Recalling something about Storm Financial. The only real losers there are the clients. A big Child Care Owner also comes to mind.
Trevor S
Jack of all Trades
Couple of points.
I have come to rethink how corruption is actually defined after spending nearly a year living in Cambodia, initially being appalled and then upon reflection, changing my mind. I am not sure if how we do it in the West is not more corrupt. eg don't pay your taxes, a man with a gun will eventually come take you away in shackles . A small example locally, there have been 30 years of studies into establishing second bridge over the Clarence Rv at Grafton, NSW many millions have been paid out in fees for reports and yet nothing, with never any intention of doing anything, to me that's corruption via opportunity cost.
A lot of that comes down to a philosophical mindset though.
There is also the difference between illegality and corruption, the western "democracies" is replete with the stench of legal corruption. One just has to look to how Wikileaks is treated by Governments and it's apparatchik, even our Prime Minister.
Steve Hindle
logged in via email @bigpond.com
You make a good point Trevor.
There are many examples of people taking an unbelievable amount of time and money to make reports and conduct investigations. Many people in the legal profession are experts at stringing things out for years so the final bill can run into the millions. There is systemic inefficiency built into many bureaucracies that takes wealth that is not earned from others. It to is a form of legal corruption.
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
But then again if developments don't take time and adequate investigation then there is the wide spread impression that governments and bureaucracies are not listening to local communities and lobby groups.
Perhaps the problem is not so much the lawyers and consultants but the developers and governments who keep pushing and pushing until they get their way against the wishes of local communities.
Along the way, while trying to obtain their affirmative answer, it costs tax payers a great deal of money!
Robert McDougall
Small Business Owner
the ultimate manisfestation of systemic corruption is collapse.
The advantage of that collapse is the ability to rebuild anew.
it's a cycle, the length of which depends upon the safeguards imposed and their effectiveness, i.e. true journalistic examination (not the info-tainment we have today), Freedom of Information (the corrupt water this down every chance they get) and legal egalitarianism.
In the spectrum of human temperament, the innately corrupt will always gravitate to the strongholds of wealth and power. IMO it is a subconscious attempt to refute the individuals own lack of self worth by attaining power over their fellows. i.e. they boost their self worth not by becoming more worthy individuals, but by using instruments to drag their peers down.
I suppose it comes down to whether you have a selfish or selfless disposition.
Miles Ruhl
Thinker
Plato was an interesting fellow with some real foresight, though I think he qould be quite appalled at how true some of his philosophies have proven (if thta makes sense - i.e. not a prediction but...eh you get it). Modern capitalism revolves around corruption, so who is surprised?
Though I must say, hilarious that "good, vigilant and ethical journalism" was mentioned in the same paragraph as The Australian, and not even using it as an example of an antonym to the former.
Cracker!
Peter Ormonde
Peter Ormonde is a Friend of The Conversation.
Farmer
I'm not sure even Plato's sense of irony would have run to awarding a police bravery commendation to Roger Rogerson, crooked cop, murderer and organised crime figure. NSW - a state beyond even Plato's ken. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Rogerson
This graft and crookedness has always been part of NSW political culture ... long long before Federation. Brown paper bags, SP bookies, casinos and the snorting of corrupt politicians and bureacrats at the trough.
But if you want a model NSW…
Read moreernest malley
farmer
Surely corruption becomes inevitable when structure begins to obscure the aim of any group endeavour? Arendt's observation that there are always enough willing servants of patronage explains why Parkinson' Law results in the Peter Principle - people rise to the level of their incompetence and lodge there like any parasite.
Peter Ormonde
Peter Ormonde is a Friend of The Conversation.
Farmer
Not sure Ern ... seems to imply that there was a period when the "group endeavour" had purpose and propriety. I'm not sure that was ever the case in NSW - ever.
The place seemed to bring some of the worst English traditions of military justice together with some of the most self-serving of the graspers the English middle and ruling classes could throw up. Open slather while the forces of law and order were busy controlling the labouring rabble and the Irish.
The place was built on graft. Folks would move from the army into the administration and make their fortunes. Backhanders, pay-offs, bribes and stealing from the public were the order of business.
It's sort of comforting to see that some of our traditions continue despite all this modern fuss and bother.
Robert Tony Brklje
Robert Tony Brklje is a Friend of The Conversation.
retired
Corruption is not systemic, not inherent to any organisation as it matures. Corruption is of the individual and is infectious, a disease that spreads when it is not prosecuted.
The initiator is of course the psychopath, those born to inherently parasite and destroy all human endeavours for their own personal benefit. From them it spreads to the narcissist those who genetic defect leave them emphatically unaware of the harm they cause others.
Collapse is when it spreads beyond them so that normal human society becomes abnormal and no longer cares and shares in any way or form and thus has no purpose of existence, except perhaps to parasite other human societies.
Like all infectious diseases eliminate the initiator of the infection, the psychopath and you prevent the spread of the disease. These also prevents the establishment of features within organisations that promote corruption.
Peter Ormonde
Peter Ormonde is a Friend of The Conversation.
Farmer
Not sure I'd agree Robert ... as the old saying goes "a fish rots from the head"...
The "open slather" culture of the Colony of NSW - where the State seized the lot and doled it out to favorites and croneys without scrutiny or fairness - where the beneficiaries of such a process became our Founding Fathers, grew rich and established dynastic fiefdoms without any legal hassles at all - created a climate where the corruption of the rich and powerful "trickled down" to the lower minions - down to the cop on the beat or the most humble planning officer.
Not as bad as India by any stretch but by creating a system built on patronage, lack of scrutiny and of generations of lazy, pre-occupied governments, corruption has become entrenched. How things are done.
Not so much a purely individual lack of principle and ethics, but a culture in which such baggage is rightly seen as an impediment in one's career. Being honest is not how one gets ahead at all.
Lu de Prís
artist
PO
Read moreWhile women in the Western World have been emancipated for less than a century, women in ancient Ireland were nearly on an equal footing with men. They were queens in their own right and led troops into battle. Women always held a place of respect in Celtic society and were accorded their rights as well. It took English law and civilization "to put women in their place." Ironically, the stamping out of the Brehon Laws, and with them the rights of women, was finally accomplished under Queen Elizabeth…
Stephen John Ralph
carer
Definition:
In philosophical, theological, or moral discussions, corruption is spiritual or moral impurity or deviation from an ideal. Corruption may include many activities including bribery and embezzlement. Government, or 'political', corruption occurs when an office-holder or other governmental employee acts in an official capacity for his or her own personal gain.
The ‘perfect injustice’: is Australia more corrupt than we think?
That depends on where your starting point is.
Read moreAlso how…
Robert McDougall
Small Business Owner
i suppose Enron was an example of Corporate Karma
Baron Pike
logged in via Facebook
Everything is always more corrupt that you think it is. But then there'd be no need for honesty if it wasn't.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
"Its old and entrenched corruption that sits below the radar of people's consciousness, out of the medias radar."
What we become accustomed to seeing becomes an accepted part of the culture. The GFC could not have happened had not so many been either part of the action, asleep at the wheel or so familiar that their ethics radar failed to pick up the mighty blip.
Stephen John Ralph
carer
Hi Dianna
very true.........particularly as recessions and depressions (and GFCs) are nothing new. If we are so clever these days, why DON'T we either see these things coming, or work out a way that they dont happen at all.
Its a bit like war, I think there are those "secret" cartels who work at starting wars (and GFCs) to financially gain in a very, very big way. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I can not be persuaded that war and depression make a few people (and corporations) obscenely rich.
And again they work so silently and craftily behind the scenes, pulling the strings.
Milton Friedman would appear to be the guru of this type of philosophy.
Greed is good.
Gary Goland
Gary Goland is a Friend of The Conversation.
Researcher
Edward the topic of corruption is part of discussion spoken throughout our community every day. Taking it back to Plato’s time says to me that dishonesty and corruption is part of how our species works. Being smart enough to avoid detection, or establish a set of rules that only looks at what is done through one set of eyes, legal and not just, is an evolution of what our species has achieved, since Plato’s time. The discussion in our community is mostly about how disappointed most of us are with…
Read moreRobert McDougall
Small Business Owner
how about mining?
Hugh McColl
Geographer
Gary, I think we have always had to start with ourselves. You say we need ethical public administration. I agree. But are you or I really capable of ethical public administration or is that just a throwaway line? We project these high expectations on our society when so many of us actually have no intention, indeed no capacity, to lead by example. This is why I find the proposition of "ethical journalism" so troubling. How can anyone who works for (say) Murdoch's News, in Britain, ever consider themselves capable of ethical journalism (or any other ethical -ism) when their employment in that organisation is premised on working for the Man and his 'ethics' rather than toward some higher purpose of one's own design or observation? If we are not aware of our own flaws and how they are prey to others we can't possibly demand a higher purpose from our institutions.
Gary Goland
Gary Goland is a Friend of The Conversation.
Researcher
A very valid question Hugh. Thank you for it. I agree morality does begin with us. My perception and discussions in the community tell me that most people make some connection to morality or ethics. I make the suggestion that it needs to be a part of process in public administration for a number of reasons. There are many publications on the topic over time. I include reference to a couple here;
Read more1. Public accountability: Effectiveness, equity, ethics, W Cameron, Aust J of Public Admin, 2004…
John C Smith
Auditor
There is no corruption among the dead.
Robert McDougall
Small Business Owner
and dead men spill no secrets
Lynne Newington
Lynne Newington is a Friend of The Conversation.
Researcher
What about the afterlife, there are worse crooks who believe in it, and those who can afford it [if not clerics per se who are automatically covered], have masses said into infinity.
Lynne Newington
Lynne Newington is a Friend of The Conversation.
Researcher
Don't you believe it.
Vatican lawyers rake in cash as "widow wars" go beyond the grave.
John Phillips Rome.
Robert McDougall
Small Business Owner
My response would be "want to buy a bridge?"
Comment removed by moderator.
Bob Buick
Retired medical consultant
Unless we find a way of detecting psychopaths, sociopaths and the potentially avaricious at birth or in childhood and either incarcerating or executing them, corruption will always be with us. Our only defence is exposure, which requires both detection and publication. hence the enormous importance of transparency and freedom of speech.
There is a current myth, encouraged by corrupt politicians, that "democracy" is enough and that we're lucky to have multiple political parties, but that's really trivial compared with the overwhelming importance of freedom of speech and transparency in government and organisations. It's no surprise that there's a current trend in Australia to reduce these two protections, given the exposure of previously concealed corruption in government, churches, sport etc.
Gary Goland
Gary Goland is a Friend of The Conversation.
Researcher
Very valid comment Bob. In effect we only have the election to determine how much honesty we will or will not live with for the following term, years.
Robert McDougall
Small Business Owner
there is another one "divide and conquer"
Would you like strawberry or chocolate? what if you want Vanilla?
Craig Minns
Self-employed
The creation of artificial dichotomies is a great tool for the corrupt. The careerist lawyers within the labour movement who have never been art of any genuine labouring class are experts at it and it seems they are planning to serve up yet more of it in the coming election, assuming their corrupt figurehead is allowed to remain by her corrupt backers.
The genuine differences between people are not fodder for corruption, because they require genuine remedies. It's in creating a false "us" and "them" that the opportunity for a corrupt middleman arises.
Lawyers have understood this for centuries - it's the basis of their fortunes.
Robert McDougall
Small Business Owner
And the closet monopolists in the coalition?
Targetting one political party without acknowledging its counterpart in the opposition is also a reflection of "perfect injustice"
I.e. they have managed to convince you that they are "just" and the government not, they have successfully convinced you of their "us and them" paradigm.
Craig Minns
Self-employed
You're quite wrong, Robert, my views are not based on support for the coalition, but on my disgust at the ALP. I have always voted ALP, but the Party no longer deserves support, it's as simple as that. a genuine positive choice has become a negative one, based on the "least worst" option. That's a disgrace.
As an aside, my mother was a McDougall, from Sydney. Perhaps we are related?
Gary Goland
Gary Goland is a Friend of The Conversation.
Researcher
Why voting for none of them has some stronger appeal. While we have a preferential system, your vote counts for each participant in the election. Having only your name ticked for attending the polling booth is, I suggest, a big tick for saying you don't see our democratic system delivering dedicated benefit to our whole community. Such action could deliver a strong message about our democracy.
Craig Minns
Self-employed
I went further and didn't attend a polling booth at the last 2 elections (one State and one Federal) and was duly fined.
I'd like to see an organised civil disobedience movement based on such non-participation, turning up and not casting a formal vote is having two bob each way, it seems to me.
Gary Goland
Gary Goland is a Friend of The Conversation.
Researcher
Impressive Craig, but by paying fines, you are simply providing money for Government to fight the introduction of a better democratic design. Mother taught me that disobedience was not a good way to go. Very supportive of a civil campaign to challenge our political participants to be accountable throughout their tenure. To expose, instead of working with the inconsistencies, inequality and corruption in Government administrative as it delivers service to our community. A placard out the front of your polling booth, "if they are not working for us all - don't vote, just have your name ticked."
Craig Minns
Self-employed
I don't know about "impressive", just an expression of my conscience. Perhaps you're right, but it seems to me that having the courage of your convictions demands the willingness to say "no, you cannot make me, even if you try to coerce me". Deliberate non-compliance is a much stronger statement than covert non-cooperation, since it entails personal risk, albeit only the risk of $158 of fine (I'm not sure what the actual fine is, that sum included some additional penalty for failing to provide current enrolment details and was levied via the Qld SPER system, presumably accruing more costs along the way - I never received a notification from the AEC in either case).
Robert McDougall
Small Business Owner
Wa branch lol, you going to the clan gathering in Oban next year?
Robert McDougall
Small Business Owner
"evil triumphs when good people do nothing" The tricky part is working out which is the lesser of two evils.
Craig Minns
Self-employed
No, I wasn't aware it was on. I can't say I do much to keep up with the clan goings-on. My Uncle Alan went to one a few years back and had a ball by all accounts. Perhaps I should dig out my tie and tam in the tartan and make the pilgrimage.
Robert McDougall
Small Business Owner
I suppose then the choice is between non-participation (protest) or attempting to identify which candidate/party most closely aligns with what you would like to see in our political structures.
caution - the promises of politicians require a pinch of salt at all times.
Anthony Peterson
logged in via Twitter
Absolutely. If given the choice between democracy or transparency I would always choose the latter.
Michael Shand
Michael Shand is a Friend of The Conversation.
Software Tester
Great Article, we need to hold our representatives feet to the fire!@!
Wil B
B.Sc, GDipAppSci, MEnvSc, Environmental Planner
Mr Spence, at best you're an optimist, at worst you're dangerously naive when it comes to the utility of our mainstream media to ferret out corruption. Have a read of this sort of view for a more realistic take on the matter: http://andrewelder.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-ambulance-at-bottom-of-cliff.html
Gary Goland
Gary Goland is a Friend of The Conversation.
Researcher
Will I support your reference to how the media only has limited capacity to discover the levels of corruption existing. Decisions are made with the editor about what will be disclosed and what will not. It comes back to legality.
Read moreOn that note I would also like to mention reference a response from an EPA deputy CEO on a pollution issue that has had serious implications for a neighboring family. "We can't investigate or disclose that for commercial in confidence" reasons.
It is also part of a…
Miles Ruhl
Thinker
Gary, your comment on the EPA made me think about the issue differently. Is the particular practice of (insert any org. here, but for example the EPA) actually corruption by particular stakeholders or those in charge for personal gain, or corruption on a systemic level such as that supposedly going on in the world of sport, or is it merely bureaucratic red tape tying hands behind backs so it appears as though it is corruption but really it is just ‘the way it is’ so to speak?
I ask as a very good…
Read moreGary Goland
Gary Goland is a Friend of The Conversation.
Researcher
My perception is that there is a bit of both Miles; poorly coordinated objectives of different sections of Government, and dishonesty within sections that have strong connection to consultancies. Why I think we could and should think to challenge politicization and dishonesty by having Councils, departments and authorities, (including the EPA), report to the upper house of parliament, instead of to Ministers. The upper house could be assisted with reference to ethicists involved in ensuring public…
Read moreRobert McDougall
Small Business Owner
or is it a case of Howards Republic Referrendum Questions. Not "should we" but "do you want it to look this or this?" no choice for "none of the above"
Stephen John Ralph
carer
Hi Robert
yep - a good example.
Altho in reality it is the peeps in charge of the company that should face the karmic forces.
Sadly this does not happen often enough as it should.
I believe penalties for corrupt politicians, CEOs, officials, former pollies, police etc should be significant and severe. As a nation we need the courts to address corruption at "high" levels with enough force to make people think twice about doing the deed.
It will never eradicate the problem, but at least might help lighten the load.
Andrew Smith
Education Consultant at Australian & International Education Centre
AWB, Securency etc. In the field of international education it has been assumed that most private colleges, agents and international students are dodgy and corrupt (with strong whiff of xenophobia being whipped up by conservative and supposedly 'progressive' media).
In fact the most egregious instances one observes (mostly offshore, but also on campus where private co's have been seeded on public resources), are in the domain of the public sector institutions, whom have difficulty in unerstanding ethics and conflict of interest, from VC level down..... if not direct financial gain, plenty of personal benefits in kind.
Robert McDougall
Small Business Owner
I suppose that is a sympton and not a cause. I'd suggest that it is the compromises you have to make along the way to those "exalted" positions that make you endebted to the powers behind the throne. As the say "practice makes perfect". It also ingrains the assumption that this is how the world operates thereby gaining tacit approval of otherwise questionable conduct.
Andrew Smith
Education Consultant at Australian & International Education Centre
I would say it just is, and exemplified by less than ethical seeding corporate entities, offshore ventures motivated by personal preferences and unnecessary and incessant international travel.
The latter exemplifed by an egregious example in 2005 http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/uni-chief-quits-over-travel-row/2005/12/16/1134703611296.html
An onshore consultant warned universitiy and TAFE international personnel that offshore agents were suffering "institutional representative fly in…
Read moreAilie Bruins
Honest Citizen
Congratulations to Edward Spence for questioning the level of corruption in Australia. One of the biggest inefficiencies in government is corruption and in my opinion is what is wrong with NSW. Having lived in NSW for the past 28 years, the current goings on at ICAC are no surprise. The problem is, nothing has improved in the governance of our state which will prevent this type of corruption happening again. If the ICAC was truly independent of the government, these corrupt charlatans would have…
Read moreGary Goland
Gary Goland is a Friend of The Conversation.
Researcher
I agree with your summary of what has been delivered over time Ailie. It is happening and has happened in every State of Australia for a very long time. As the process of engaging the extensive and diverse corruption in our democratic society picks and chooses only through legal action, it will never be resolved. Why I suggest we should have public review of what is done in departments, in the upper house, not to the Minister. Where the antagonism of both sides of the political spectrum can be made useful in servicing public interest, by challenging one another on the quality of what is delivered to our community. Answering to the Minister allows choices of what is hidden and what is publicised.
Robert McDougall
Small Business Owner
The only problem being, how do you get them to ask the RIGHT questions, I.e. genuine and relevant instead of for political mileage.
We pay them both to provide good legislation, not to further their own interests.
Geoff Henderson
Graduate
It seems to be agreed that corruption can be a pretty broad brush so I don't think the video I have linked is especially off topic. A US senator, Elizabeth Warren is trying to get a simple question answered. She is frustrated by the evasive responses offered, and one can readily identify with her frustration.
http://www.upworthy.com/elizabeth-warren-asks-the-most-obvious-question-ever-and-stumps-a-bunch-of-bank?c=fea
The clear lack of candor and propensity to avoid "true" answers is common in Australia: parliament is a classic case but not at all the only forum that deals in untruth. You might even call "spin" a form of dishonesty.
For me, I include the act of passively avoiding or concealing truth as a form of corruption.
Anthony Peterson
logged in via Twitter
Not all the Lance Armstrongs in this world are cyclists. On a philosophical level, I find it curious that evil has an innate need to masquerade as good.
Stephen John Ralph
carer
Are individuals or groups who use "evil" to make a gain innately evil or just greedy.
When employees steal biros or notepads from the company stationery cupboard every now and again - is this systemic corruption.
We certainly judge the politician who seeks to make a monetary gain illegally as corrupt.
But is the intention of both equally bad, or is there a degree of corruption we pass off as being a bit naughty, and another degree that is inherently bad.
Money could be the root of all evil.
Evol Fayers
retired
Yes Stephen I would have to say Money IS the root of all evil. It certainly comes before the health of communities. I for one can testify to that.
John Kerr
IT Education
I read some interesting comments about police corruption not that long ago. It's a problem that worries the US police forces as well. There is an old saying that is often used in cases like this; "Corruption begins with the first cup of free coffee." (Well McDonalds should think of this when they start corrupting our cops!) I heard that the NSW Labor Party has paraphrased this saying. "Corruption starts with the first free mining licence." What absolutely staggers me if the level of corruption and the excuses for it - "Can't remember" being a good one. I don't think I would be forgetful of something I did that was worth $10m!
margaret moir
old lady
Dishonesty comes in many forms I agree and fact is it is a human occupational hazzard.
Read moreI think to praise the media is stretching it too far. The Media is a business profit is the bottom line. Would like to see avenue of accountablity from all forms of media essential to our democracy is trusted sources of information. Missleading is a dishonesty look at adverts.
Once taxpayers owned income generating assets that provided the services that we once enjoyed and society benefited from. Our assets…
Comment removed by moderator.
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Stephen John Ralph
carer
Hi Greg
probably about the same as Scotland, where Mr McDonald antecedents are presumably from.
I'm also thinking that corruption in various forms might be found in many European countries.
A recent PM of a Mediterranean country seemed to have his hand in a few dodgy deals.
And in Greece its almost de rigueuer to fiddle on your taxes, or not pay any.
As you say about corruption - its HUMAN nature.
Stephen John Ralph
carer
Hi Greg
Perhaps these migrants are taking a leaf out of Australians like Alan Bond (altho English/Australian)
or Christopher Skase and the like.
I think it is pointless and just wrong to pick and choose nationalities and races and ascribe endemic corruption to them.
Oh and heaven forbid it also has the faint whiff of racism.
Peter Ormonde
Peter Ormonde is a Friend of The Conversation.
Farmer
Faint? What's faint about it Stephen?
Stephen John Ralph
carer
Hi Peter
just being moderate (as usual).
And for fear of being judged out of context - nectarines...my favourite fruit.
A little time under the griller, and then served with grand marnier or such, and King Island double cream.......perhaps a sprinkling of brown sugar.
Peter Ormonde
Peter Ormonde is a Friend of The Conversation.
Farmer
Wicked wicked man ... I'm a diabetic ... I can't even READ things like that let alone try it ... God I wish I could. Actually that might be worth a try regardless of the consequences.
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
Did I not clearly say that anglo-saxon culture has its own problems with graft and corruption??????
My point is, for example, that anglo-saxon culture seems to have gotten to the stage where graft and corruption is fairly minimal compared to Africa for example.
It is not in our interests to take a backward step by importing other forms of corruption into our culture through high immigration.
With a much lower immigration intake we stand a better chance of weeding out corrupt individual immigrants…
Read moreGreg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
Criticism of cultures that are widely known to be highly corrupt.......
IS NOT RACISM!
Stephen John Ralph!
I am not associating the tendancy for corruption to a particular 'race' which I agree science proves does not exist at this time in human evolutionary history.
I am associating corruption with particular cultures which may contain multiple ethnicities.
Perhaps I should refer you to the Miller vs Wertheim precedent under the Race Discimination Act to improve your ignorance as to what racism really is.
"As you say about corruption - its HUMAN nature."
Yes, but on top of that some cultures are more tolerant of corrption than others and we do not want those particular influences adding to Australia's multicultural society. We want the best of other cultures but not their dreggs!
Comment removed by moderator.
Peter Ormonde
Peter Ormonde is a Friend of The Conversation.
Farmer
Living proof eh Greg? Hard to argue with actually given the available evidence.
Can we organise some sort of spelling test for 10 pound poms please... they've been sending us their "dreggs" for over 200 years.
Stephen John Ralph
carer
Hi Greg
hear what you say.
'
Can I first say that Anglo-Saxons were the first immigrants to this country. (well the Aborigines did come across the land bridge all those millennia ago)
On one hand your arguments are correct, because in truth, there would be no Asian triads without Asians. But we have (criminal) bikey gangs that appear to be Anglo-Saxon - not all but many.
I would argue that MORE and MORE immigration may not be a sensible approach, but not because of the threat of crime…
Read moreCraig Minns
Self-employed
It seems to me that immigrants of any culture are groups that obviously benefit from exclusionary collectivism. They have an incentive to work together for the mutual benefit of the group, while maintaining a somewhat isolationist stance with respect to other, more established groups. It is a fine line between giving a fellow-traveller a hand up and being involved in deliberate malfeasance and it's not always obvious. It is when the collective acts against the broader interest that the real problem…
Read moreComment removed by moderator.
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
I am glad we are in some level of agrrement on this.
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
"On one hand your arguments are correct, because in truth, there would be no Asian triads without Asians. But we have (criminal) bikey gangs that appear to be Anglo-Saxon - not all but many."
From what I have heard the bikie gangs are being infiltrated and taken over by Lebanese etc criminals and used as a vehicle for their criminal exploits.
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
As a general observation at least in my region......
When there are isolated immigrants in the neighbourhood they are often welcomed and included by the other residents.
But when a number of them that have residences close by one another and they start to interact only among themselves it can often lead to resentment among the rest of the residents in the area.
In my view it is better for the long term social health of the multiculturalism and indeed the long term benefit of the immigrants for them to have relatively limited opportunities for them to interact with their own kind.
When you get invited to a party where you know few other people you tend to be forced to mingle an make new friends, or have a miserable time.
But when you are invited to a party where you know a many of people then you tend not mingle with others and make new friends.
Again this is human nature.
Stephen John Ralph
carer
HI Greg
for the sake of some clarity, could you name some of the countries (or cultures) that you say are more tolerant of corruption than "we" are.
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
Nigeria springs to mind with the plethora of internet scams that seem to originate from that country and others in Africa.
Corruption may or may not be tolerated officially by the governments but clearly there is a high tolerance for it among the general population.
Which is obviously why those governments have such problems stamping out corruption.
There has also been numerous reports of entrenched corruption in China. Again the Chinese government does its best to stamp it out, but the general population still needs some convincing.
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
Also seem to be a lot of internet scams and corruption in Russia and surrounding states.
Stephen John Ralph
carer
Hi Greg
do you feel that you might be confusing crime with corruption.
An internet scam is not corruption per se. A government that encourages it might well be.
I did "consult" the Australian Human Rights Association. In a information sheet on the Racial Discrimination Act it says....It (RDA) does not cover discrimination or vilification based on religion.
Not only did I find that interesting, but also that this concept could be a potential minefield.
In the same way crime v corruption is open to a multitude of opinions.
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
Crime and corruption all spout from the same human well spring Stephen and the line between corruption and crime is a blurred one.
We have seen that the bikie gangs and other drug criminals, engaged in blatant criminal activity, have started infiltrating Australian customs and spreading the disease of corruption through one of our most important public institutions.
Ailie Bruins
Honest Citizen
I thought this discussion was about whether Australia is more corrupt than we think it is.
As an immigrant from "corrupt" Africa, I think that there is most certainly more corruption in Australian than most are aware of, or would like to admit exists. The perplexingly complacency about corruption in Australia provides an environment of ignorance in which corruption thrives. Changes to governmental protocols, procedures, laws etc will make no difference if they are routinely flouted - as they are in NSW.
Hopefully this essay will encourage people to examine and question how power is exercised right here, instead of looking down on other cultures. You might be as shocked as I was, at what I discovered here in NSW. And, I wholeheartedly agree with Peter Ormonde that no matter who is in power in NSW there is always the stench of corruption. We need to wake up, start asking questions, and become really engaged in how we are governed.
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
Yes, and my question is how much of that corruption, that we are all oblivious to, has been imported over the last 10 years with a unprecendeted high immigration intake and allowed to seep into our institutions and companies and our society in general.
Robert McDougall
Small Business Owner
You could probably track it by following the money.
So, where has the money been in the last 10 years?