Mobs tearing up Logan. Did any of them do a day’s work today, or was it business as usual and welfare on tap?
That’s how MP Andrew Laming responded to recent violence in Logan between Aboriginal and Pacific Islander groups.
Clearly both groups face discrimination, yet we know comparatively little about Pacific Islanders as a marginalised minority group in Australia. Violence is always a complex issue, but where Pacific Islander youths are involved there are several factors at play that might help us better understand the situation.
It needs to be stressed that those involved in the violence at Logan are a small minority. But incidents such as this do happen. In 2011, a violent confrontation involving young Pacific Islanders broke out at Mount Druitt’s Westfield Shopping Centre.
So what lies behind violence involving Pacific Island youth in places such as Logan and Mount Druitt?
Every young Pacific Islander is different and has different experiences. But there are some observations that might help explain some of the violence.
Employment
Although Laming lamented unemployment, in fact sometimes it is the opposite that’s the problem. First generation Pacific Islanders come to Australia to better themselves, their family here, and their family back home. But they often end up in low-paying or unskilled employment, often involving shift work. In other words, they work very hard for little reward.
This leads to the issue of supervision. Because the first (and sometimes subsequent) generation of parents work so hard, kids often get less parental supervision. Often the supervision they do get is from elder siblings. This means young people can lack strong parental role models in their everyday life.
They also have little choice and free action in everyday life. In Pacific cultures, young people typically don’t speak back to elders. This means many of these youths have very limited scope to express their frustration, and anger builds.
Education
Parents put a very high value on education. Their children are meant to be shy and respect elders. Talking to teachers, let alone questioning them, is difficult. At the same time, when they get home, if they adopt Australian youth ways of interacting with their Pacific Island elders, they are sternly rebuked.
If they don’t succeed at school, they also face heavy stricture from their parents. And changes to immigration laws made many Pacific Islanders ineligible for HECS. Even if they do well in school, they are unlikely to pursue a university degree due to the additional financial pressures this involves. So many feel stuck and unable to break the cycle of unskilled employment and parental expectations.
Finance
Then there is the amount of money sent to relatives in Australia, the Pacific Islands, and other parts of the world. There is significant pressure to fulfil the social responsibilities of sending earning back to their families. A lot of money is also funnelled to churches, as Pacific Islanders are often very religious.
As a result, even if parents are working hard and earning money, their immediate family in Australia may not enjoy the benefits of this. Because so much of one’s earnings need to be distributed elsewhere, working is actually not as financially rewarding to youth as it might appear. It’s almost as though they are at the top tax rate, but they are only earning minimum wage.
Community
Finally, a sense of belonging. As a result of work and education issues, self-esteem problems often arise. Youths look for alternative communities where they can find acceptance, and more freedom of action.
And most of these youths live in outer suburbia, areas of low income, where many ethnic minorities reside. This has the effect of concentrating disadvantaged groups and the difficulties they face.
Many of the issues discussed here are generational problems, which many migrant or ethnic youth face: clashing values, clashing behavioural expectations, limited resources, and unclear or even dubious role models.
These are just a few of the underlying problems that need to be taken into account before judgements about violence are made.
A version of this piece also appears on the National Times.
David Milne
Retired
Maybe it is time to reconsider our policy on who can best serve our nation. Filling Centrelink with migrants illegal and legal is not helpful.Let us house and employ the existing users of our Public Purse then and only then allow entry on a qualification basis. David C Milne
Chris Saunders
retired
Dear Elizabeth,
I might have missed it in your article but the concept of forming gangs, and hanging out together was always considered in my older generation as a formula for potential trouble, no matter which ethnic group was involved. In groups there is the surrender to the mind of the leader, and the power and force that numbers generate leads to engagement in behaviour which might not otherwise have eventuated. Not every gang commits violent acts although most will perform some daring act or prank along the way.
John Canning
Professor at University of Sydney
Yes I agree. There are many nationalities with similar socio economic circumstances which do not engage in the level of violence of some particular communities. I think the speculative nature of the comments of this article need to be substantiated with a broader study across all groups to identify if there are actually any underlying socioeconomic differences; alternatively, there is also a need to see what role the so-called violence gene plays. I have experienced and witnessed many times marauding…
Read moreLes McNamara
Researcher
The main driver of this kind of violence is simply the high concentration of social disadvantage - low incomes and high unemployment. Logan and Mount Druitt have very high concentrations of public housing. We've seen this kind of violence in other housing estates (Redfern) and it doesn't always involve migrants or Aboriginals (Macquarie Fields).
The social housing policies of the 60s, 70s and 80s are more directly linked to violence in these communities than race, culture and the migrant experience. Some people in these communities experience fear, anger, frustration, helplessness, marginalisation and social alienation that people like Andrew Laming and most middle class Australians will never understand.
What is needed more than anything else are schemes like the Logan Renewal Initiative in QLD and the Airds Bradbury and Claymore Urban Renewal Projects in NSW. Social work isn't enough. Social housing needs a massive overhaul.
John Canning
Professor at University of Sydney
Education provides the avenues for alternative releases - examine other groups in low socioeconomic circumstances and you will see the same frustrations manifested through hard work and more education rather than only violence. The interview with the young chap admitting he could not recognise himself also illustrates the quite separate and dangerous power of mobs and gangs (or extreme peer pressure) - I think its stretching the imagination to believe this is linked to housing.
Comment removed by moderator.
Jim KABLE
teacher
What is happening to our society that we are building inequities into every piece of legislation in the immigration/refugee/citizenship areas. I had no idea that Pacific Islander youth would be excluded from HECS! Nor I daresay would nearly every other citizen! South Pacific Islanders - Tongan, Fijian, Samoan, Maori from NZ or the Cook Islands - and other Polynesian/Melanesian cultural/linguistic groups - all make this land the richer - if only they are given the chance - as have some already. This is surely yet another priority area for focus - with "community" leaders/elders playing key roles - of course! It's good to see these issues being taken up. Now let's see some solutions coming from the Logan city conflict!
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
The fact is that providing HECS privaledges for the several tens of thousands of immigrant children who land on our shores is self evidently not economically sustainable in the long term.
So I am pleased that that the federal autorities has shown some level of economic responsibility on this.
But we should all be questioning WHY they are accepting the current number of immigrants annually only to discriminate against them through debying HECS privaledges, and no doubt in many other privaledges…
Read moreWayne Wilton
Doctor of Motiv Traction
Of course they should be excluded from HECS, they are not CITIZENS, guess what, they can't vote either and if they commit violent crimes they get deported.
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
My point is that they shouldn't be excluded from HECS due to the fact that this causes social and economic inequity as others have rightly pointed out. This clearly comes back to bite us through antisocial behaviour etc.
My point is also that, the fact that the government cannot afford to provide them all with HECS, is evidence that the size of our current immigration intake is not economically sustainable and therefore socially unsustainable........if we are to avoid antisocial behaviour from those ethnic groups who are denied HECS and other privaledges.
Tony Grant
Student
These issues of violence with indigenous folk goes back many decades. I remember an indigenous mate of mine saying he escaped a "bashing" because the islanders thought he maybe one of them circa Cairns 1977.
If possible, I don't believe we should be taking these people on.
What % actually do well at school?
What % end up as "bouncers"?
What % in the "rugby codes"?
As you say they have been "doped with religion" which may seem a preferable choice to "mass medication" ...testosterone levels in males (islanders) is it higher maybe leading to their aggressiveness?
Another mate of mine lived out at old "Green Valley" his kids couldn't go to the park due to the "islanders" not letting "non-islanders" into the park (Busby).
As this nation is under the control of foreign capital, it soon will be land of many ghetto style communities?
Mele-Ane Havea
logged in via email @smallgiants.com.au
Thanks for this article Elizabeth.
You point to a number of the complexities around culture, disadvantage, expectations and societal inequality that MP Laming's comments obviously did not take into account.
Another complexity I would like to add is that of the size of young pacific islander males (relative to the the caucasian males) means that the impact of a violence is much more significant, and the ramifications (both for the victim and themselves) much greater. Many young boys (of all nationalities) as a result of immaturity (amongst other things) will engage in such behaviour, but the consequences and outcomes are different...
Chris Saunders
retired
Some good comments and suggestions here, but a bit of consensus on the importance of low socio-economic factors. No-one here is seriously forgetting the gangs in more wealthy suburbs are they? Just recently there have been middle class party invasions reported in the press, a common occurrence which frequently results in violence and bashings.
John Canning
Professor at University of Sydney
Good Point Chris - wealthy people aren't necessarily well educated though - take a look at our mining magnates for example...
Chris Saunders
retired
Dear John
I take your point on the mining magnates, but “the rich” as Scott Fitzgerald said “are different”. They do not need anyone for they can buy anything and anyone. They then want people on their own terms.
If I have got it right, you seem to be talking in terms of an opportunistic personality taking advantage of any given environment. The education level/component determines access to the varying degree of sophistication of the environment and the subsequent behaviour.
But if you are going to stipulate education and then entry to more sophisticated institutions etc for different manifestations of violence, bullying etc then you still need to take into account examples such as the recent goings on at university colleges (initiation rites?) where the strong need for belonging by members was matched by the cruelty and possibly psychopathic behaviour of its leaders. University undergraduates are to most people considered educated.
John Canning
Professor at University of Sydney
I think in essence you are saying the correct thing - basically the type of conduct seen recently in in low socioeconomic communities can be traced to normal human behavior limited in its opportunities to exert oneself. I think it would be marvellous PhD topic to explore this common thread and its actual origins rather than isolate it as a result of a particular environment - I suggest a violence gene as a provocative statement since it has been raised in the media from time to time as that common thread. It would seem to me existing socio studies limited to analysing violence in its physical manifestation from a local environmental perspective will easily find a way to dismiss a genetic component and suggest its environmental (e.g. the type of house you live and area) - whilst environmental clearly influences the direction and type of violence, the possibility exists that the behavior may be genetic.
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
Regardless of education levels our base animal instincts concerning social domination and political power, and indeed xenophobia, are NEVER far from the surface of our behviour.
Therefore are base instincts need to be taken into consideration when it comes to formulating regulatory and immigration policies and many others.
We are not as far removed from the rest of the animal kingdom than we care to admit to ourselves.
Tony Simons
Accountant
Excellent article. That Pacific Islander youth would be excluded from HECS is a mean spirited and self defeating policy. NZ has had social problems with second generation (and third?) poorly educated Islander youth going back to the 1960's. We should look to tailor our education to better meet the needs of indigenous, Islander and Lebanese youth. Expand the resources would bring great benefits. There are cultural issues, witness how succesful Asian and European second generation migrants have performed. Mount Druitt has also had clashes between Samoans and Aboriginals.
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
And which segment of Australian society are you going to take resources away from in order to do this????
Pensioners? Aboriginal Australians? State schools?
The federal budget is not a magic puding that you can keep taking slices from for ever!
Like I said, if the federal government cannot afford to give them HECS privaledges then we should be questioning why they are being granted VISAs and permanent residency in the first place!
Tony Simons
Accountant
Annother rotten Howard dog whistle which Gillard has extended. Non citizen residents pay taxes yet their children are denied HECS. They are a disgrace pitching to the worst racism and xenophobia. They are prepared to warehouse human beings in Pacific gulags to target votes in Western Sydney. No matter that Australia's reputation is trashed.
Jim KABLE
teacher
Hear! Hear! Tony - and amen to your passion.
I note that the response to my earlier post has called forth the very kind of response we don't need in a discussion of this kind. Could we have some clearer moderating of such commentary - The Conversation is becoming a haunt of the disaffected and angry it seems - the "me-and-mine-and-us" vs the "other-who-is-different" kind of perspective more a feature of radio shock-jock negative and divisive bile.
Comment removed by moderator.
Annabelle Leve
Researcher/Educator
The sign in clause: "We welcome debate and dissent, but personal attacks (on authors, other users or any individual), abuse and defamatory language will not be tolerated. Nor will we tolerate attempts to deliberately disrupt discussions. We aim to maintain The Conversation as an inviting space to focus on intelligent discussions. Please be courteous."
At times it seems to me this 'intelligent discussion - or discussion that builds knowledge and understanding of such important issues, does just as you say, Jim Kable. I can access these types of comments in the generalised mass media but prefer something I can learn from. Issues with Pacific Islander migration are complex and varied, but the fact they are also our very close neighbours, and named and persecuted for their 'difference(s)', is something that needs to be discussed fairly and intelligently.
Jim KABLE
teacher
Thanks, Annabelle LEVE. I was beginning to think I was mis-reading this forum! Years ago I was teaching in a coastal secondary school - some of my students from Maori Ao Tearoa - who appreciated my respect for the writing of Patricia GRACE and Witi IHIMAERA and Keri HULME as well as that of Albert WENDT - from slightly further afield! I thought it part of my role to reflect the cultural/literary background/traditions in an inclusive manner for my students - mirrors and springboards - as it were! Not to point out stereotypical scapegoating negativities! Thank-you!
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
"The Conversation is becoming a haunt of the disaffected and angry it seems - the "me-and-mine-and-us" vs the "other-who-is-different" kind of perspective more a feature of radio shock-jock negative and divisive bile."
Well Anabelle dear perhaps some of you people need to re-read the rules yourself.
Because I regard such thinly veiled racist slurs as a personal attack and I will continue to respond to them accordingly!
You people want me to desist in personal attacks on you then perhaps you people need to bite your tongue before launching veiled racist slurs in my direction!
Comment removed by moderator.
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
I issue you people the same challenge that I have previously issued Peter Ormande.
Provide an extract from ANY of my posts where I have either implicitly or explicitly advocated cuts to immigration or curbing fertility based on ethnicity, skin colour or religion.
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
I cannot remember a single occasion where any of you have attempted to counter my advocacy of cuts to immigration and zero net population growth with well reasoned and intelligent counter arguments.
Collectively, your only 'counter arguments' have been racist slurs with out any evidence what so ever in the context of the sum of what I have said on the subject.
Please provide evidence that I have on one occasion advocated selective immigration cuts or selective cuts to fertility.
Annabelle Leve
Researcher/Educator
"Anabelle dear"? "you people"?????
I am an educator - critical and political, but not a politician, journalist or demographer. I am involved with educating, adjudicating between, and attempting to work with students to develop critical, informed and generative discussion and potential action. I am involved in Pacific Island and Indigenous affairs and know that whatever happens, they are not going to disappear. I might even use a couple of the comments here to spur on some class discussion, hopefully initiating more of a reasoned and productive response.
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Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
And what it there is some truth to what the author has written?
Is it you position that the perception of racism trumps truth????
If there is a real problem among Pacific Islander communities then the above article is clearly not stereotyping Pacific Islanders.
And this issue would not be occuring if our open border with New Zealand were damn well closed!
New Zealand immigrants need to be screened and regulated like all other immigrants so that this sort of problem is less likely to occur.
Peter Turner
Journalist
This whole saga looks like a beat-up to me, if you’ll forgive the pun. Logan is not in flames and rent by racial violence. Two families let a domestic dispute get out of hand, and instead of one backing down as would normally happen, they called in extended clan and it escalated to ridiculous levels. This is just two households in one street, not a race war, and if the media had sought fact instead of easy sensationalism, I suspect we would find race had little to do with it. But everyone loves to watch a fight, and the media, which once deliberately avoided racial reference, now uses it as a story pivot. If this had involved bogan Logan Aussie families, would this story have got nearly as much, if any, coverage? Australia increasingly revels in racial divide and stereotyping, it seems. You just have look at some of the comments here - from the inane (Tongans have higher testosterone levels) to the insane (Aborigines are scum) - to know where the racial problem in this country lies.
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
I disagree with Michael Leonard Furtado on this immigration/population issue.
There is no room for compromise on zero net population growth and related immigration and fertility management. You either have it or you don't and there is no middle ground.
Compromising on zero net poulation growth/immigration is as pointless as compromising on reduction of CO2 emissions, e.g. we only reduce our CO2 emissions by half of what the climate scientists say is required.
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
Posted on another forum by some one else:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who are they?
Pacific Islander (or Pacific person; pl: Pacific people; also Oceanic person/people(s)[1] or Oceanians), is a geographic phrase to describe the indigenous inhabitants of any of the three major sub-regions of Oceania: Polynesia, Melanesia and Micronesia.
Source: Wickepedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Islander…
Read moreGreg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
It is excessive immigration (across the board) levels that are directly leading to inequity in our, till now, egalitarian society.
Annabelle Leve
Researcher/Educator
Thanks Greg, great topic to give to my students for debate. The (my) mind boggles ...
Comment removed by moderator.
John Canning
Professor at University of Sydney
Whilst this is a highly emotive and provocative topic with many personal views, can the Editors of the Conversation please terminate any more commentary - its too unpleasant to see and is evidence of the "violent gene theory" in action! What had begun as an interesting and thoughtful discussion has degenerated into a highly emotive "ping pong" of personal snides and commentary that are just fueling angry responses that are largely unproductive and unpleasant to see. In fact if this had been a town hall meeting on the issue this might escalate into a full on riot that might put Logan to shame!
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
John you are under no obligation to follow this discussion.
If any of this disturbs you then just don't read it!
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
But you have no right to call for the discussion to be sensored because you do find it unpleasant!
Comment removed by moderator.
Jim KABLE
teacher
This week-end's - The Weekend Australian Magazine - Nikki GEMMELL (who quotes from two negative letters received recently - poor grammar a feature she notes): '...My trolls need to feel their life choices, whatever they are, are "right" - as opposed to my world with all its differences. If they hate me this much, they only hate themselves a lot more.'
Chris Saunders
retired
So it is assumed by most people on this discussion that this is a singular ethnic and socio/economic problem along the lines of the concept in the USA that the latest immigrant group is the most trouble, not one of exclusion and belonging which is the issue dear to the hearts of teenagers and young adults, not a domestic dispute accelerated instead of decelerated, not a criminal element which has been known to prey on young people and use them to instigate violence outside a competitor’s premises, not the aggressive, random acts of impulsive or revengeful individuals, not group planned (religiously biased) acts of taunting or terrorizing of minorities, not a utilization of personal power and a flaunting of authority’s and certainly not the actions of individuals who have wealth and education, but all due to a federal government’s policy of immigration. The politicization of a social situation will solve it all.
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
It is not about any particular last ethnic group being the most trouble!
It is about excessive numbers of ANY ethnic group always leading to trouble.
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
It happened with Irish immigrants to america.
It has happened with Korean immigrants in Japan.
It has happened with african immigrants in Italy.
It has happened with muslim immigrants throughout the west.
Race and religion are irrelevant but the results are invariably the same or similar.
Native population have a finite social and economic capacity to accept immigrants from other cultures and when that capacity is exceeded by governments chasing dollars or negelcting the regulatory responsibilities you get social disorder!
Comment removed by moderator.
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
"Every nation relies on a sense of community. That sense of community belonging can easily be damaged by the rapid entry of foreign peoples who unintentionally erode national cohesion."
This from Geoffry Blamey's book "All for Australia" make perfect sense to me.
I am unclear on Geoffrey's complete position on multiculturalism but as far as I am concerned it is not precisely the ethnic composition of our immigration intake but rather the size of our immigration intake that leads to break down…
Read moreOzzy Patriot
logged in via email @gmail.com
You lefties wanted us divided into a multiplicity of disparate cultures, now we are. Enjoy!
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
What annoys me is that so few non-'lefties'question the very premise of what this lobby calls 'racist'.
In my view relatively few of the those acused of being 'racists' by this ellitest lobby actually hold genuinely racist views.
Consult the oxoford dictionary on the definition of 'racism' and our Race Dsicrimiation Act Miller versus Wetheim and see for yourself.
Many Australians are more fairly desribed as xenophobic towards immigrants. But then 'xenophobia' is an almost universal behaviour among the human race and indeed many other mammal species.
Megan Clement
Deputy Editor, Politics + Society at The Conversation
Hi everyone,
It seems things have become quite heated in this thread. It's an emotive issue, but I ask you all to review our comments policy (https://theconversation.edu.au/comments-on-commenting-10678) before making further comments. Personal attack will not be tolerated, and a civil discussion should be upheld.
Any comments that contravene our terms will be removed, and the comment thread may be closed if things do not improve.
Cheers,
Megan
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
RE: presumed impartiality of the 'educator' lobby.
I put it to people that to a signficant degree, what is driving this lobby to shut down any discussion on the merritts and direction of multiculturalism and on asylum seeker policy etc, through racist slurs etc, is the fear that anything other than an 'open borders' approach will significantly effect the flow of fee paying foreign students and therefore cash flow into public and private university coffers!
Greg Boyles
Lanscaper and former medical scientist
One should always be very wary of claims of concern for country or a policy issue when a pay cheque clearly has some dependancy on the status quo around that policy issue.