tag:theconversation.com,2011:/us/topics/thor-22163/articlesThor – The Conversation2023-03-14T17:18:49Ztag:theconversation.com,2011:article/2008912023-03-14T17:18:49Z2023-03-14T17:18:49ZWhy Old Norse myths endure in popular culture<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/514666/original/file-20230310-14-72f1pc.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=20%2C10%2C3477%2C1841&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">Chris Hemsworth as Thor in Marvel Studios' The Dark World from 2013.</span> <span class="attribution"><a class="source" href="https://www.alamy.com/chris-hemsworth-thor-the-dark-world-2013-image472865537.html?imageid=0BB208C1-FE37-4C76-9731-904462B5103E&p=1913542&pn=1&searchId=21f2e4a6290695fa2c8a3ce8bf511534&searchtype=0">Maximum Film / Alamy</a></span></figcaption></figure><p>From <a href="https://www.eno.org/composers/richard-wagner/">Wagner</a> to <a href="https://morrisarchive.lib.uiowa.edu/exhibits/show/translations/anderson-oldnorse/anderson-oldnorse-ch1">William Morris</a> in the late 19th century, via Tolkien’s dwarves and CS Lewis’s <a href="https://www.tor.com/2021/03/17/better-things-ahead-the-last-battle-and-the-end-of-narnia/">The Last Battle</a>, through to last year’s <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/film/2022/apr/22/norse-code-white-supremacists-reading-the-northman-robert-eggers">controversial film The Northman</a>, Scandinavian gods and heroes have been central to the stories we tell ourselves.</p>
<p>As professor of medieval European literature, I have been exploring Old Norse mythology since my undergraduate days. I have always been fascinated by the ways in which the old myths remain vital and relevant in the present, particularly now in various pop-cultural forms. In my new book, <a href="https://thamesandhudson.com/the-norse-myths-that-shape-the-way-we-think-9780500252345">The Norse Myths That Shape The Way We Think</a>, I explore how 10 key Norse myths and legends have been reworked over the last 200 years.</p>
<p>Although these stories have been influential since their discovery in 17th-century Europe, in recent years Norse narratives have exploded across fiction, Hollywood blockbusters, rock albums, opera, video games and TV shows – these are just a few of the cultural spheres in which Norse myths have been put to work. Here I introduce three of the most important gods, the feminine divine in the form of <a href="https://www.britannica.com/topic/Valkyrie-Norse-mythology">valkyries</a> and shield-maidens, and finally, the looming threat of <em>ragna rök</em> – the end of the world.</p>
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<h2>Gods and monsters</h2>
<p>The main gods – not so much the goddesses unfortunately – offer ways to think about different stages of masculinity. <a href="https://historiska.se/norse-mythology/odin-en/">Odin</a>, the all-father, is the leader of the Norse pantheon, creator of humankind and god of wisdom. He will die at <em>ragna rök</em>, devoured by the great wolf Fenrir.</p>
<p>Starting with the main character <a href="https://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-aesir-gods-and-goddesses/odin/">Wotan</a> in Das Rheingold, the first part of Wagner’s <a href="https://www.classicfm.com/composers/wagner/guides/wagner-ring-cycle-where-start/">Ring Cycle</a> – and also in Neil Gaiman’s 2001 epic <a href="https://www.neilgaiman.com/works/Books/American+Gods/">American Gods</a>, and Douglas Adams’ 1988 comic novel <a href="https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/The_Long_Dark_Tea-Time_of_the_Soul">The Long, Dark Teatime of the Soul</a> – Odin is a figure who senses that power is draining away from him. Yet he ingeniously seeks out ways of clinging to his waning authority, cutting dodgy deals and manipulating his own flesh and blood through cunning and deceit.</p>
<p>The <a href="https://www.marvel.com/explore">Marvel Comic Universe</a> has already killed off the aged god, for he embodies an older patriarchal principle, one that refuses to step aside for the next generation. </p>
<p>In Norse myth, <a href="https://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-aesir-gods-and-goddesses/thor/">Thor’s</a> main role is smiting giants with his great hammer Mjöllnir, patrolling the borders of the gods’ and human territory to keep out enemies. An indomitable performer of mighty feats, he is not always taken seriously in the myths: a favourite story involves him being forced to cross-dress as a reluctant and implausible bride.</p>
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<img alt="A stained-glass window showing a viking warrior looks at the sea." src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/514504/original/file-20230309-570-xg4o05.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/514504/original/file-20230309-570-xg4o05.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=450&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/514504/original/file-20230309-570-xg4o05.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=450&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/514504/original/file-20230309-570-xg4o05.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=450&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/514504/original/file-20230309-570-xg4o05.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=566&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/514504/original/file-20230309-570-xg4o05.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=566&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/514504/original/file-20230309-570-xg4o05.JPG?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=566&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px">
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<span class="caption">Viking warrior detail from stained-glass window at Miss Maud Swedish Hotel, Perth, Australia.</span>
<span class="attribution"><span class="source">John Davis</span>, <span class="license">Author provided</span></span>
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<p>So too, the modern Thor is often depicted as a bumbling loutish thug, reaching for his hammer instead of thinking things through. Contemporary writers, such as Joanne Harris and Francesca Simon, make him the butt of their tales for younger readers – the cross-dressing story makes for great comedy.</p>
<p>The god’s image has been rescued through his incarnation as the Mighty Thor. In Marvel comics and movies, he has learned maturity, how to wield and to restrain his power, and has come to care for others, both humans and his own people, the semi-divine Asgardians. Marvel’s Thor is constructing a new kind of masculinity, one that understands that violence is not always the answer and which has learned the value of forethought and compromise. </p>
<p>Half-god, half-giant, <a href="https://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-aesir-gods-and-goddesses/loki/">Loki</a> is a strangely ambiguous being; in the Marvel Universe he is Thor’s adoptive brother, though not in the original myth. He gets the gods out of tight situations – often ones that he himself has caused – but he will march against them with their enemies at <em>ragna rök</em>. For novelist AS Byatt, he is the intellectual’s god, questioning and nonconformist, while Marvel and Disney have made Loki into a shape-changing, gender-bending cult hero, always ready with a quip as he double-crosses Thor once again.</p>
<h2>A female perspective</h2>
<p>Loki is also the father of monsters: his daughter Hel, goddess of death, is the heroine of Gavin Higgins and Francesca Simon’s chamber opera from 2019, <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/feb/22/the-monstrous-child-review-linbury-theatre-london">The Monstrous Child</a>. Hel is a sparky teenager living with disability and consigned to a grim underworld, a girl whose story takes in love, vengeance and learning the true extent of her powers.</p>
<p>Warrior-maidens and fate-goddesses rolled in one, the valkyries range high above the battlefield, determining who shall live and who shall die. Wagner’s <a href="https://thenorsegods.com/brunhilde/">Brünnhilde</a> is the most remarkable of the valkyries, the true heroine of his <a href="https://www.classicfm.com/composers/wagner/guides/wagner-ring-cycle-where-start/">Ring Cycle</a>, fulfilling her father Wotan’s will and finally bringing down the gods. </p>
<p>Valkyries were also imagined as the battle-trained women warriors who now throng such TV shows as <a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2306299/">Vikings</a> and <a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4179452/">The Last Kingdom</a>, skilled fighters who battle on an equal footing with men. These women vividly dramatise aspects of contemporary femininity: effective in traditional masculine domains, wielding power and choosing their own lovers, yet still working out how to manage sexual relationships and motherhood alongside their professional identities.</p>
<p>Literally “the doom of the gods”, <em>ragna rök</em> lies in the mythic future for gods and humans: the powers of ice and fire will destroy the earth. Tolkien suggests that this inevitable ending shapes the northern spirit, kindling courage and resignation in the face of certain doom.</p>
<p>Wagner saw his Götterdämmerung (the twilight of the gods) as sweeping away the corrupt divine order, leaving a purified, empty world where free human beings could build anew. In HBO’s <a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0944947/">Game of Thrones</a>, humanity’s apocalyptic clash with the icy power of the Night King is resolved by one young woman’s courage and determination.</p>
<p>The Norse myths envisage a cleansed green world that rises again from the ocean, but the climate cataclysm towards which we are heading admits no such renewal. Perhaps we can learn from the gods’ bad faith and carelessness in time to avert the downfall that <em>ragna rök</em> foreshadows for us all.</p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/200891/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
<p class="fine-print"><em><span>Carolyne Larrington has recently published The Old Norse Myths that Shape the Way We Think with Thames and Hudson.</span></em></p>Ancient tales of gods and heroes and medieval Scandinavia help us make sense of things like masculinity, betrayal, revenge and the end of the world.Carolyne Larrington, Professor and Tutorial Fellow in English, University of OxfordLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1864502022-07-21T17:56:39Z2022-07-21T17:56:39ZGetting hammered by cancer: ‘Thor: Love and Thunder’ re-examines the hero’s journey<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/475399/original/file-20220721-22-swp7hy.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&rect=27%2C4%2C2992%2C1521&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">Meaning is found in love and risk, not in superpowers.</span> <span class="attribution"><span class="source">(Marvel Studios)</span></span></figcaption></figure><iframe style="width: 100%; height: 100px; border: none; position: relative; z-index: 1;" allowtransparency="" allow="clipboard-read; clipboard-write" src="https://narrations.ad-auris.com/widget/the-conversation-canada/getting-hammered-by-cancer---thor--love-and-thunder--re-examines-the-hero-s-journey" width="100%" height="400"></iframe>
<p><em>This story contains spoilers about ‘Thor: Love and Thunder.’</em></p>
<p>In the new movie <em>Thor: Love and Thunder</em>, based on recent comic books about the superhero, cancer complicates what it means to be Thor.</p>
<p>The superhero Thor <a href="https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Journey_into_Mystery_Vol_1_83">first appeared in 1962</a>, quickly joining the super-team The Avengers. Thor was the epitome of the male superhero: morally upstanding and astonishingly physically powerful.</p>
<p>But recent comic book stories have seen different characters — the original, a male Thor Odinson and, lately, a female Mighty Thor, also known as Jane Foster — team up to command the power of Thor.</p>
<p><em>Thor: Love and Thunder</em>, the newly released film by director <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/29/movies/taika-waititi-thor-love-and-thunder.html">Taika Waititi,</a> adapts some of these stories. Thor Odinson (Chris Hemsworth) is surprised when, after an eight-year separation, his ex-girlfriend Foster (Natalie Portman) transforms into The Mighty Thor. </p>
<p>Foster as The Mighty Thor has cancer in both the movie and in recent comics. </p>
<p>The character raises questions about the impact cancer has on ideas of worthiness, responsibility and power — and what it means to be a superhero. These are themes we examine in our forthcoming book, <em>The Cancer Plot: Terminal Immortality in Marvel’s Moral Universe</em>. </p>
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<figcaption><span class="caption">‘Thor: Love and Thunder’ official trailer.</span></figcaption>
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<h2>Bewildered, angry fans</h2>
<p>In both the recent comic books and film, Foster controls the enchanted hammer <a href="https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Mjolnir">Mjolnir</a>, the weapon that grants superheroic powers to the person who can to lift it. </p>
<p>Some comic book <a href="https://www.cbr.com/fans-calm-down-jane-foster-mighty-thor/">readers reacted</a> negatively to Foster’s time as The Mighty Thor, arguing that Marvel was stripping away or confusing the history of a male Thor superhero in order to introduce gender diversity in its characters.</p>
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Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/why-ms-marvel-matters-so-much-to-muslim-south-asian-fans-184613">Why Ms. Marvel matters so much to Muslim, South Asian fans</a>
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<p>Some movie viewers have expressed similar disappointment about seeing a <a href="https://www.insider.com/fans-react-to-natalie-portman-playing-female-thor-2019-7">female Thor</a>.</p>
<p>The film’s focus, however, is not on the gender of Thor, but on Odinson’s moral journey. Foster’s spreading cancer is the catalyst for Thor Odinson’s moral growth.</p>
<h2>Facing enemies</h2>
<p>In both comic books and the Thor film franchise, which began with the 2011 movie <em>Thor</em>, Thor Odinson is a deity: <a href="https://www.worldhistory.org/Thor/">the Norse God of Thunder</a>. A moral exemplar, Odinson could only lift the enchanted hammer <a href="https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Mjolnir">Mjolnir</a> if he was worthy. </p>
<p>In both earlier comic books and films, Foster’s typical role was as a minor character. Writers used her as the love interest in danger, giving the male hero someone to rescue.</p>
<p>That is, until she became The Mighty Thor herself. </p>
<p>In <em>Love and Thunder</em>, Foster takes on new enemies: cancer and the <a href="https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Gorr_the_God_Butcher">cosmic villain Gorr</a> (Christian Bale). While Foster and Odinson vanquish Gorr, they are not able to defeat her cancer.</p>
<p>By taking on Gorr, and risking death from cancer, Foster shows Odinson that a meaningful life is one of emotional and physical risk that may result in loss.</p>
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<img alt="Black and white image of a vampirish-looking pale villain's grimacing face." src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/475404/original/file-20220721-9523-13bqsb.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/475404/original/file-20220721-9523-13bqsb.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=251&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/475404/original/file-20220721-9523-13bqsb.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=251&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/475404/original/file-20220721-9523-13bqsb.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=251&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/475404/original/file-20220721-9523-13bqsb.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=316&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/475404/original/file-20220721-9523-13bqsb.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=316&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/475404/original/file-20220721-9523-13bqsb.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=316&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px">
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<span class="caption">The cosmic villain Gorr (Christian Bale) is one of the enemies The Mighty Thor faces.</span>
<span class="attribution"><span class="source">(Marvel Studios)</span></span>
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<h2>Complicating the superhero</h2>
<p>Foster transforms when she holds Mjolnir in both the comic book and movie.</p>
<p>Emaciated from chemotherapy, Foster becomes muscled (and blonde) as The Mighty Thor. The film and comic books link these different bodies through the ethical decisions she must make.</p>
<p>The movie runs up against idealizing narratives of cancer. Cultural critic Barbara Ehrenreich has criticized depictions of cancer as “<a href="https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/jan/02/cancer-positive-thinking-barbara-ehrenreich">the source of [one’s] happiness</a>.”</p>
<p>Such narratives <a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/detailing-the-problems-of-breast-cancer-culture/2012/02/09/gIQA3DiT2Q_story.html">minimize the painful process of cancer care to promote</a> a lifestyle brand.</p>
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Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/cancer-and-loneliness-how-inclusion-could-save-lives-140516">Cancer and loneliness: How inclusion could save lives</a>
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<p>The film mostly avoids this. Cancer becomes the occasion for determining what’s important in life through struggle on behalf of others while facing death.</p>
<p>Foster’s continual decision-making — to have chemotherapy or engage in battle — vividly characterizes the struggle of cancer patients highlighted <a href="https://www.bcaction.org/from-the-executive-director-pink-ribbon-culture-gaslighting-and-the-breast-cancer-epidemic/">in critical</a> works <a href="https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6303890">and memoirs</a>. </p>
<p>Thus, The Mighty Thor’s cosmic work cannot be separated from her mortal life as a cancer patient.</p>
<h2>The cost of superheroism</h2>
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<img alt="A smiling man seen against a Marvel backdrop." src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/475412/original/file-20220721-10055-c3xwd7.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=237&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/475412/original/file-20220721-10055-c3xwd7.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=693&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/475412/original/file-20220721-10055-c3xwd7.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=693&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/475412/original/file-20220721-10055-c3xwd7.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=693&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/475412/original/file-20220721-10055-c3xwd7.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=870&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/475412/original/file-20220721-10055-c3xwd7.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=870&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/475412/original/file-20220721-10055-c3xwd7.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=870&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px">
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<span class="caption">Chris Hemsworth in role as Thor Odinson does not have to consider the same complicated ethical decisions as his girlfriend, Jane Foster.</span>
<span class="attribution"><span class="source">(AP Photo/Mark Baker)</span></span>
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<p>The same superheroic action has different effects on Odinson and Foster.</p>
<p>For Odinson, the cost of battle does not jeopardize his superhero identity or practice. He can <a href="https://marvelcinematicuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Thor%27s_Prosthetic_Eye">lose a body</a> <a href="https://screenrant.com/thor-metal-arm-origin-marvel-comics/">part, or</a> use a cane when in <a href="https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Donald_Blake_(Earth-616)">a temporary human form</a>, but neither puts him at risk of dying. </p>
<p>The costs for Foster, however, are much higher. Foster’s superhuman power, ironically, prevents her cancer treatments from working. Being The Mighty Thor risks killing her. </p>
<p>She must consider death and disease when choosing to battle. Cancer forces The Mighty Thor to make complicated ethical decisions that Odinson doesn’t have to consider.</p>
<h2>Renewed life</h2>
<p>In both the comic books and the film, cancer kills Foster.</p>
<p>In <a href="https://www.marvel.com/articles/comics/the-full-reading-order-of-jason-aaron-s-thor">the years-long comic book story</a>, <a href="https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Mighty_Thor_Vol_2_706">Foster dies</a> after throwing Mjolnir into the sun. </p>
<p>Odinson rewards Foster with renewed life and the consolation prize of new <a href="https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Valkyrie:_Jane_Foster_Vol_1">superhero identity</a> as a Valkyrie, an elite warrior of Asgard.</p>
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<img alt="Two women in fancy dresses seen against a blue backdrop smiling at each other." src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/475410/original/file-20220721-22-gu6xud.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/475410/original/file-20220721-22-gu6xud.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=400&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/475410/original/file-20220721-22-gu6xud.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=400&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/475410/original/file-20220721-22-gu6xud.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=400&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/475410/original/file-20220721-22-gu6xud.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=503&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/475410/original/file-20220721-22-gu6xud.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=503&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/475410/original/file-20220721-22-gu6xud.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=503&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px">
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<span class="caption">Foster (Natalie Portman) finds new life as a Valkyrie in New Asgard, ruled by King Valkyrie (Tessa Thompson).</span>
<span class="attribution"><span class="source">(AP Photo/Scott Garfitt)</span></span>
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<h2>Love and loss</h2>
<p>In <em>Thor: Love and Thunder</em>, Foster’s cancer journey enables Odinson learn a lesson on meaning and risk. While she is in hospital, Odinson begs her to give up Mjolnir so that he won’t lose her. </p>
<p>Despite the likelihood of her death, Foster chooses to live, and die, on her own terms. She joins Odinson in the final battle against Gorr, dying as a result of the wounds she sustains and her cancer. </p>
<p>Early in the movie, fellow superhero Star-Lord (Chris Pratt) talks to Odinson about the loss of own his love. He advises: “<a href="https://gamerant.com/best-quotes-from-thor-love-and-thunder/">I hope one day you can feel this shitty</a>,” a variation on the adage that it is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. </p>
<h2>How meaning is found</h2>
<p>By choosing to make hard moral decisions and take risks, even that of losing him, Foster gives Odinson things to feel shitty about. In this state, Odinson now empathizes with Gorr to the point of taking on the care of his enemy’s orphaned daughter.</p>
<p>Though Foster dies, she is rewarded as The Mighty Thor with entry into <a href="https://www.britannica.com/topic/Valhalla-Norse-mythology">Valhalla</a>. However, she enters the place of the gods in her mortal form. Her heroism is not tied to her powers but to her moral decision-making and risk-taking.</p>
<p><em>Thor: Love and Thunder</em> offers a new way to read Foster’s cancer. It shows how meaning is found in love and risk, not in superpowers.</p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/186450/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
<p class="fine-print"><em><span>The authors do not work for, consult, own shares in or receive funding from any company or organisation that would benefit from this article, and have disclosed no relevant affiliations beyond their academic appointment.</span></em></p>In the latest ‘Thor’ movie, the character Jane Foster raises questions about the impact of cancer on ideas of worthiness, responsibility and power — and what it means to be a superhero.Reginald Wiebe, Associate professor, Department of Language and Literature, Concordia University of EdmontonDorothy Jean Woodman, Associate Lecturer, Department of English and Film Studies, University of AlbertaLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/1869782022-07-21T08:59:57Z2022-07-21T08:59:57ZLove and Thunder: the evolution of Thor’s masculinity in the Marvel Cinematic Universe<p><em>SPOILER ALERT: this article contains plot references to Thor: Love and Thunder.</em></p>
<p>Chris Hemsworth’s <a href="https://www.marvel.com/characters/thor-thor-odinson/on-screen/profile">Thor</a> often refers to himself as the “strongest Avenger” – an idealistic manifestation of masculinity beyond the reach of ordinary mortal men.</p>
<p>Sure, this is mostly played for laughs, but if we look beyond the comedy, there is an interesting message about what it means to be a man underpinning the Thor franchise. It’s a message that has shifted and changed over the last decade, and not always for the better.</p>
<p>In the latest instalment, <a href="https://www.marvel.com/movies/thor-love-and-thunder">Thor: Love and Thunder</a> , there is not one Thor but two: step forward the Mighty Thor, in the guise of the original’s one-time love, <a href="https://www.marvel.com/characters/jane-foster">Jane Foster</a>, played by Natalie Portman. </p>
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<p>The <a href="https://www.marvel.com/movies">Marvel Cinematic Universe</a> (MCU) is a multi-billion-dollar multiverse franchise that unites a range of superheroes adapted from Marvel Comics. Hemsworth’s “space Viking” first appeared in the MCU in Kenneth Branagh’s 2011 movie <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOddp-nlNvQ">Thor</a>. </p>
<p>Even though this incarnation of Thor is a pastiche of masculine superheroes, the cues of stereotypical “normal” <a href="https://www.britannica.com/topic/hypermasculinity">hypermasculinity</a> were still at the core of the film. Yes, the audience were encouraged to laugh at Thor’s arrogance and roll their eyes at his insufferable hubris. But, in the end, it was his superior strength and aggression, combined with the love of a “good woman” – Jane Foster – that won the day in a celebration of hypermasculine prowess. </p>
<h2>Playing with masculinity</h2>
<p>It was all standard Hollywood action hero fare, and this continued into the second instalment in the franchise, Alan Taylor’s <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npvJ9FTgZbM">Thor: The Dark World</a> (2013), as well as Joss Whedon’s cross-franchise <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL8AuX7MBc4">The Avengers</a> (2012) and <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmeOjFno6Do">Avengers: Age of Ultron</a> (2015).</p>
<p>It wasn’t until New Zealand actor/director <a href="https://www.britannica.com/biography/Taika-Waititi">Taika Waititi</a> took the helm for the third instalment, <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7MGUNV8MxU">Thor: Ragnarok</a> (2017), that we began to see a real shift in the representation of Thor’s masculinity. Here, it is celebrated for its ridiculousness not its effectiveness, planting the seeds for a new interpretation of how the hypermasculine can be understood in everyday culture. </p>
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<p>In the Russo brothers’ <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMSITikqKiM">Avengers: Endgame</a> (2019), the reimagining of Thor’s masculinity took a potentially problematic turn. Having failed to prevent Josh Brolin’s <a href="https://www.marvel.com/articles/movies/avengers-endgame-refresher-thanos">Thanos</a> – the ultimate bad guy in the MCU – from erasing half of life in the universe in <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZfuNTqbHE8">Avengers: Infinity War</a> (2018), Thor slips into depression. </p>
<p>In his depressive state, he is stripped of his masculine prowess. Now inhabiting a <a href="https://screenrant.com/avengers-endgame-thor-cut-scene-details-worse/">fat body</a> that is exposed for comedic effect, Thor’s depression is correlated with laziness, a lack of personal hygiene and emotional instability.</p>
<p>In this new guise, he is diminished as a member of the Avengers, with his role as peak masculinity now taken by Mark Ruffalo’s <a href="https://www.marvel.com/characters/hulk-bruce-banner/on-screen/profile">Hulk character</a> who has become Professor Hulk – a combination of the brute strength of the Hulk and superior intellect of Bruce Banner. “Fat” Thor is a jokey figure – the inverse of hypermasculinity. </p>
<h2>The new ideal (spoiler alert!)</h2>
<p>Things are different in Taika Waititi’s latest Thor: Love and Thunder (2022). In the opening montage of the movie, Thor returns his body to the hypermasculine form. Again it is ridiculous – as ridiculous as the <a href="https://nerdist.com/article/thor-love-and-thunder-goats-history-mcu-marvel-comics-mythology/">gigantic screaming goats</a> that carry his space boat across the universe. </p>
<p>He is still an exaggerated uber-muscled masculine presence, simultaneously a figure of ridicule and spectacle. He is to be consumed or scoffed at depending on your preference. Or maybe even both. </p>
<p>Jane Foster’s reimagining as the Mighty Thor introduces a new gender dynamic into the franchise. The Mighty Thor is just as powerful as Thor, or maybe even more so, as she comes to his rescue on several occasions. Yet Thor’s masculinity does not collapse or enter crisis in the face of powerful femininity.</p>
<p>In the end he works with the Mighty Thor as an equal to save the day. The arrival of this female Thor incarnation in the story amplifies the absurdity of Thor’s masculine hubris, but it does so in a way that still allows the audience to enjoy Thor’s laughable excesses. </p>
<p>Even though the central relationship explored in the movie is heterosexual, Thor’s masculinity is not rigidly heterosexual, as demonstrated in an amusing scene where he gazes into the eyes of Chris Pratt’s <a href="https://www.marvel.com/characters/star-lord-peter-quill">Star Lord</a>, when asked about people he loves.</p>
<p>In Love and Thunder, Thor’s hypermasculinity is complex: arrogant and hubristic, but also caring. His supernatural strength causes and solves problems. It is is framed as aspirational and childlike, such as when, near the end of the movie, he shares his powers (temporarily) with the children he has set out to rescue. He is both a saviour and in need of saving. </p>
<p>Waititi’s Thors live in a reciprocal dynamic. We discover in flashback that it was Hemsworth’s Thor, in asking his hammer Mjölnir to protect Jane, who inadvertently caused her to become the Mighty Thor. Later, when it is revealed that Jane’s continued use of Mjölnir will lead to her death, she chooses to sacrifice herself to save Thor.</p>
<p>Ultimately, when Thor agrees to care for the orphaned daughter of the vanquished <a href="https://www.marvel.com/articles/movies/christian-bale-joins-thor-love-thunder-gorr-god-butcher">God Butcher</a> played by Christian Bale, he becomes a new and idealised version of masculinity – one that is not only focused on the body, strength and physical superiority, but also on caring, nurturing and domestic life.<br>
The new hypermasculine ideal realised by Hemsworth in Thor: Love and Thunder is fluid, contradictory and subject to change and interpretation, which seems a perfect fit for our changing times.</p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/186978/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
<p class="fine-print"><em><span>John Quinn does not work for, consult, own shares in or receive funding from any company or organisation that would benefit from this article, and has disclosed no relevant affiliations beyond their academic appointment.</span></em></p>Director Taika Waititi enjoys playing with notions of masculinity in this latest outing of the franchise which sees the macho hero eclipsed by a female character of equal standing.John Quinn, Lecturer in Screen & Performance, School of Business and Creative Industries, University of the West of ScotlandLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/863452017-10-30T13:29:00Z2017-10-30T13:29:00ZThor: Ragnarok – the end of the world (but not as we know it)<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/192269/original/file-20171027-13367-177suug.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">CRE R</span> </figcaption></figure><p>Even before its release in the US market, Thor: Ragnorok, the final instalment in the Marvel trilogy featuring the Norse God of Thunder, <a href="http://variety.com/2017/film/news/thor-ragnarok-international-box-office-1202601869/">topped the international box office with US$107.6m</a> and earned more money for an October release in Britain for any movie other than a James Bond film. A thunderous launch, then, if you are given to clunky puns.</p>
<p>But beyond being a dose of action-packed entertainment, the film raises a number of questions on how ancient myths are incorporated into contemporary superhero franchises. Thor: Ragnarok’s mix of Nordic myth, apocalyptic visions and popular science fiction fantasies makes it hugely entertaining but also problematic where the use of myth is concerned.</p>
<p>Thor is of course not the only superhero blending ancient myth and comic book characters. Earlier this year, the new Wonder Woman movie showed us how <a href="https://theconversation.com/friday-essay-journeys-to-the-underworld-greek-myth-film-and-american-anxiety-82919">Greek myth</a> can be adapted into the comic universe. As a <a href="https://theconversation.com/the-truth-about-the-amazons-the-real-wonder-women-78248">demigoddess drawn from a range of classical sources</a>, Wonder Woman highlighted the “pick-n-mix” mentality with which myth is being used in superhero films (and their comic book sources). </p>
<p>It is undeniable that modern superheroes and the gods and heroes of mythology have a lot in common. Apart from superhuman powers, they also live by their own moral codes – often outside of human society. When adapted into a comic universe, new rules apply. The focus shifts from largely self-interested desires towards the protection of mankind as a central aim. </p>
<p>Thor, however, is a particularly interesting case as he is drawn from Norse rather than Greek mythology. Unlike Greek mythology, whose key players and stories are widely familiar to audiences not least from numerous small and large screen versions, Norse myths are generally much less well-known. This might make their appropriation easier as fewer people are likely to bemoan potential inaccuracies – but also means that you cannot draw on the audience’s background knowledge in the same way. </p>
<p>In this latest instalment, Thor faces his evil sister Hela (a variation on the goddess Hel) played by Cate Blanchett, who has taken over Asgard – the mythical home of the Norse gods (at least in this simplified version). He fears that she will bring about Ragnarok, the “Twilight of the Gods”. Yet, in the end, it is he who causes rather than prevents it, in order to destroy the evil villainess and protect his people. </p>
<h2>Pick'n'mix mythology</h2>
<p>The mixing up of different mythic realms is many centuries old – the 13th-century Icelandic historian <a href="https://www.britannica.com/biography/Snorri-Sturluson">Snorri Sturluson</a>, who is the source of much of Norse mythology, conflated Asgard with the mythic city of Troy. Although he later revised this, in Sturluson’s earlier <a href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/pre/">Prose Edda</a>, Thor is the son of Tróán, daughter of the Trojan king Priam. This might go some way of explaining his reincarnation as a gladiator halfway through the film, his new look more akin to Spartacus, Leonidas and the like than his previous longhaired, Viking-inspired appearance. </p>
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<p>Sturluson also wrote at a time when Christianity gradually took over as the dominant religion and, as such, his recounting of the old Norse myths is diffused with Christian undertones. Interestingly, hints at this replacement of the old myths by a new, Christian world order can also be found in Thor: Ragnarok. When Hela first returns to Asgard, she destroys a ceiling painting that depicts the Norse gods in a distinctly Christian manner, complete with golden halos around their heads. Hela blasts the ceiling away, revealing the images of a much darker past, where Odin is shown as brutal conqueror rather than benevolent ruler. </p>
<p>However, despite the epic title, very little of the film actually deals with this ultimate battle of the gods. While in the myth the whole world goes up in flames, the film contains its destruction to the floating island realm of Asgard. In contradiction with myth, first Odin then Thor claim that “Asgard is not a place, it’s a people”. These 21st-century sentiments reframe Ragnarok as a refugee crisis, in which the people of Asgard become a group of migrants now in search for a new home. </p>
<h2>Tongue-in-cheek Thor?</h2>
<p>While myths have always been adapted to make sense of contemporary issues, limiting these to a particular place and a small group of people somewhat jeopardises their universality. Moreover, the modern superhero genre generates mythic heroes that are no longer part of a specific mythic realm. The films are, of course, always linked to other parts of the <a href="http://www.firstpost.com/entertainment/marvel-cinematic-universe-101-all-you-need-to-know-about-the-massive-movie-franchise-3427094.html">Marvel Superheroes franchise</a> and the <a href="http://marvel.com/movies/movie/152/marvels_the_avengers">Avenger films</a> provide a chance to bring them all together. </p>
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<img alt="" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/192423/original/file-20171030-18730-1vmlom.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/192423/original/file-20171030-18730-1vmlom.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=251&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/192423/original/file-20171030-18730-1vmlom.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=251&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/192423/original/file-20171030-18730-1vmlom.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=251&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/192423/original/file-20171030-18730-1vmlom.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=315&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/192423/original/file-20171030-18730-1vmlom.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=315&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/192423/original/file-20171030-18730-1vmlom.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=315&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px">
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<span class="caption">Villainess: Cate Blanchett as Hela.</span>
<span class="attribution"><span class="source">Marvel Studios 2017</span></span>
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<p>But first and foremost, superheroes and heroines are just individuals that battle their own issues – and mythology is used merely as a back story rather than a guiding principle for the film’s narrative. In the end, everything is smothered in irony, robbing the mythical elements of their meaning – myth is reused, recycled, and ultimately reduced to superficial entertainment. </p>
<p>Don’t get me wrong, it’s funny and nostalgic, in particular the nods to 1980s and 1990s film and television. The tongue-in-cheek approach and the New Zealand sets all reminded me of Hercules: The Legendary Journeys (1995-1999), which incidentally also dealt with Ragnarok in its fifth season. The difference is that for Hercules, human beings were always central, and he was happy to let the gods destroy each other if needed. </p>
<p>While Thor also ultimately saves the people of Asgard, the main focus is on the battle between him and Hela, the super-villainess. In these battles between superhuman beings, ordinary people often end up as collateral damage – which rather challenges the notion of superheroes as the protectors of humankind. </p>
<p>Another Marvel film, <a href="http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_America:_Civil_War">Captain America: Civil War</a> raised this central ethical question as part of its story: is it ever justified to sacrifice human beings for the greater good? I’m not sure I can find similar significant issues being explored in Thor: Ragnarok. Or maybe the filmmakers have simply shied away from giving us a clear moral message in the way Hercules used to do. Decide for yourself and enjoy the ride.</p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/86345/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
<p class="fine-print"><em><span>Sylvie Magerstaedt does not work for, consult, own shares in or receive funding from any company or organisation that would benefit from this article, and has disclosed no relevant affiliations beyond their academic appointment.</span></em></p>Norse mythology is just a starting point for this all-action comic-book adventure.Sylvie Magerstaedt, Principal Lecturer in Media Cultures, University of HertfordshireLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/862112017-10-25T19:05:16Z2017-10-25T19:05:16ZThor: Ragnarok pitches superheroes against science (and how does Hulk keep his pants on?)<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/191505/original/file-20171024-1695-abr34n.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">Thor: Ragnarok sees Thor do battle with Hulk.</span> <span class="attribution"><span class="source">Marvel Studios</span></span></figcaption></figure><p><a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3501632/">Thor: Ragnarok</a> is the latest Marvel movie <a href="https://www.flicks.com.au/movie/thor-ragnarok/">out today</a> that sees Australian Chris Hemsworth back as Thor, but he’s not on friendly home turf. </p>
<p>Instead he finds himself imprisoned on the opposite side of the universe from his beloved Asgard, and out of his depth in a gladiatorial contest with the Incredible Hulk (Mark Ruffalo).</p>
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<p>But Hulk isn’t his only problem. Ragnarok (the end of his homeland of Asgard) is looming and Thor has new villains to deal with, including the warlike Hela, played by Australian Cate Blanchett.</p>
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Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/science-fiction-helps-us-deal-with-science-fact-a-lesson-from-terminators-killer-robots-50249">Science fiction helps us deal with science fact: a lesson from Terminator's killer robots</a>
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<p>Other new characters include the eccentric Grandmaster (Jeff Goldblum), the fallen warrior Valkyrie (Tessa Thompson), the conflicted Asgardian Skurge (Karl Urban) and the hilarious Korg (played in motion capture by the director Taika Waititi himself).</p>
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<a href="https://images.theconversation.com/files/191744/original/file-20171024-13971-6aw4tg.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip"><img alt="" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/191744/original/file-20171024-13971-6aw4tg.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/191744/original/file-20171024-13971-6aw4tg.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=251&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/191744/original/file-20171024-13971-6aw4tg.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=251&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/191744/original/file-20171024-13971-6aw4tg.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=251&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/191744/original/file-20171024-13971-6aw4tg.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=316&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/191744/original/file-20171024-13971-6aw4tg.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=316&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/191744/original/file-20171024-13971-6aw4tg.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=316&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px"></a>
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<span class="caption">Thor with new friends and enemies.</span>
<span class="attribution"><span class="source">Marvel Studios</span></span>
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<p>Given the light-hearted tone of the movie, we’re going to have some fun looking at the “science” of Thor: Ragnarok. </p>
<p>We’ll take it as a given that there are superheroes with magical capabilities, and look instead at the numbers behind some of the characters and events. As usual, there are some minor spoilers ahead.</p>
<h2>How do Hulk’s pants stay on?</h2>
<p>Hulk is infamous for his pants staying on through his transformations, both from Bruce Banner to Hulk and back again. Given that these are normal pants, is this possible?</p>
<p>First we can calculate how much they need to stretch. In the movie, Hulk is about 259cm (8ft 6ins) tall and very solidly built, as explained by VFX supervisor Jake Morrison. Banner, according to <a href="http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Bruce_Banner_(Earth-616)">some sources</a>, is about 178cm (5ft 10ins) tall, and actor Mark Ruffalo says <a href="https://twitter.com/MarkRuffalo/status/784526464213540864">he’s around 175cm</a>. He has similar stature to me (Michael) and my waist measures about 40cm across at the front. </p>
<p>So in transitioning from Banner to Hulk, his height goes up by a factor of 1.46, while his waist circumference goes up by about 1.75 times - more than his height because in Hulk form he’s more bulky.</p>
<p>So his pants would need to stretch by about 75%.</p>
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<a href="https://images.theconversation.com/files/191755/original/file-20171024-13423-gw4qd.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip"><img alt="" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/191755/original/file-20171024-13423-gw4qd.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/191755/original/file-20171024-13423-gw4qd.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=614&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/191755/original/file-20171024-13423-gw4qd.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=614&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/191755/original/file-20171024-13423-gw4qd.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=614&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/191755/original/file-20171024-13423-gw4qd.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=771&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/191755/original/file-20171024-13423-gw4qd.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=771&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/191755/original/file-20171024-13423-gw4qd.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=771&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px"></a>
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<span class="caption">Maintaining decency means no high fashion for Hulk.</span>
<span class="attribution"><span class="source">Marvel Studios/Michael Milford</span></span>
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<p>Finding stretchiness factors for jeans is challenging. <a href="https://www.liveabout.com/stretch-jeans-guide-2040386">Fashion websites</a> quote figures up to 4% for stretch jeans. A <a href="http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17543260903302329">scientific study</a> found “stretchability” of up to 34% (after a few washes). So conventional jeans are probably out.</p>
<p>Pure spandex pants, on the other hand, are viable - <a href="http://www.npr.org/2011/12/11/143003539/spandex-has-stretched-with-u-s-waistlines">they can stretch by more than 100%</a> and then return to their original size. So if Banner is willing to accept certain fashion choices, he can maintain decency while morphing both ways.</p>
<p><strong>Verdict:</strong> It’s stretching science a bit, but plausible.</p>
<h2>Calling Mjölnir</h2>
<p>Thor’s hammer, also known as Mjölnir, has an unpleasant run-in with Hela in the movie. With some abuse of physics, we can examine how Thor might be able to call his hammer back at high speed.</p>
<p><img src="https://i.imgur.com/jHG8CmR.gif" width="100%">
<em>Source: Marvel Studios</em></p>
<p>If Thor is using and abusing normal physics, he might call the hammer back by playing with masses. The hammer looks to accelerate back to Thor faster than normal Earth gravity (9.81m/s<sup>2</sup>) would make it fall - so let’s say it accelerates back twice as fast – about 20m/s<sup>2</sup> – and he calls it back from 100 metres away.</p>
<p>There are at least two possibilities here: Thor increases his mass magically in a way that only affects the hammer, or the hammer increases its mass in a way that only interacts with a (magically unmoveable) Thor. </p>
<p>Either way, one of them has to temporarily have a much greater mass:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>acceleration = gravitational constant × mass of large body / distance<sup>2</sup></p>
<p>mass of large body = acceleration × distance<sup>2</sup> / gravitational constant</p>
<p>= ( 20 × 100<sup>2</sup> ) / ( 6.673 × 10<sup>-11</sup> )</p>
<p>= 3 × 10<sup>15</sup>kg (or 3,000,000,000,000,000kg)</p>
</blockquote>
<p>This is quite close to the weight of the Mediterranean sea (but concentrated in one extremely dense superhero) - so there would definitely have to be some way for the increased mass to only gravitationally affect Thor and the hammer - otherwise the environment around them would get ripped to shreds as well.</p>
<p><strong>Verdict:</strong> Real-world physics takes a bit of a hammering.</p>
<h2>Thor versus Hulk: Who would win in a fight?</h2>
<p><img src="https://i.imgur.com/aM4g1Zz.gif" width="100%">
<em>Source: Marvel Studios</em></p>
<p>The movie addresses this controversial and <a href="https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/thor-153/my-blog-on-thor-vs-hulk-who-should-win-638534/">much-debated question</a> in one way. Fans have disagreed on it forever. They draw upon reference material from the comics and movies, and arguments around Thor being a deity and Hulk being capable of near-infinite strength based on his rage.</p>
<p>What we can look at is what sort of strength it would take for Thor to throw the much bigger Hulk around in a gladiatorial fight.</p>
<p>Hulk probably has a specific weight. We can calculate it by scaling up the weight of a bulky human bodybuilder to Hulk’s height. Weight will scale up with the <a href="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/scaling-laws-speed-animals/">cube law</a>.</p>
<p>One of the biggest bodybuilders in the world right now is Mamdouh Elssbiay, who is 178cm tall and weighs in at about <a href="http://www.flexonline.com/ifbb/mamdouh-elssbiay">144kg in the offseason</a>. We can scale his weight up:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Hulk weight = bodybuilder weight × height ratio<sup>3</sup></p>
<p>= 144 × (259 / 178)<sup>3</sup></p>
<p>= 444kg</p>
</blockquote>
<p>This weight is in the range that <a href="http://marvel.com/characters/25/hulk">Marvel provides</a> of 408-635kg for Hulk.</p>
<p>Thor seems to knock him straight through the air about 50 metres along a fairly flat trajectory, let’s say accelerating him up to a speed of 300km/h (83.33m/s).</p>
<p>Assuming perfect energy transfer (in reality there would be loss), Thor would have imparted the following energy to Hulk:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Hulk kinetic energy = 0.5 × mass × v<sup>2</sup></p>
<p>= 0.5 × 444 × 83.33<sup>2</sup></p>
<p>= 1,540,000 joules</p>
</blockquote>
<p>The energy in a human punch depends on the sport, the intention of the punch, and the size and training level of the human, but it appears to be in the <a href="http://www.science.ca/askascientist/viewquestion.php?qID=821">range of a few hundred joules</a>.</p>
<p>So Thor’s punches would have to impart about 10,000 times more energy than a human punch to toss Hulk around like he does. </p>
<p>From a momentum perspective, for Thor to not shoot backwards when he punches Hulk, he would either have to temporarily have a great mass or have some other magical power that defies conservation of momentum laws.</p>
<p><strong>Verdict:</strong> Lucky Thor’s a god.</p>
<h2>Super superheroes or wretched Ragnarok?</h2>
<p>Thor: Ragnarok is a fantastically funny movie, the best in the Thor series, and one that finally addresses some unanswered questions that comic fans have long debated.</p>
<hr>
<p>
<em>
<strong>
Read more:
<a href="https://theconversation.com/thor-ragnarok-a-joyous-trashy-retro-nostalgic-comedy-is-the-best-of-the-marvel-films-85743">Thor: Ragnarok, a joyous, trashy, retro-nostalgic comedy, is the best of the Marvel films</a>
</strong>
</em>
</p>
<hr>
<p>The movie mixes elements that stay somewhat true to real-world physics (Hulk’s weight) and others that require blatant violations of them (Thor’s hammer; fighting).</p>
<p>Most importantly, we have calculated that it’s plausible for Hulk’s pants to stay on, maintaining decency through Banner to Hulk transitions and back again. </p>
<figure class="align-center zoomable">
<a href="https://images.theconversation.com/files/191747/original/file-20171024-13536-yilsk4.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip"><img alt="" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/191747/original/file-20171024-13536-yilsk4.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/191747/original/file-20171024-13536-yilsk4.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=251&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/191747/original/file-20171024-13536-yilsk4.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=251&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/191747/original/file-20171024-13536-yilsk4.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=251&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/191747/original/file-20171024-13536-yilsk4.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=316&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/191747/original/file-20171024-13536-yilsk4.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=316&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/191747/original/file-20171024-13536-yilsk4.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=316&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px"></a>
<figcaption>
<span class="caption">The bromance between Thor and Hulk continues to grow.</span>
<span class="attribution"><span class="source">Marvel Studios</span></span>
</figcaption>
</figure><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/86211/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
<p class="fine-print"><em><span>Professor Michael Milford is a Chief Investigator at the Australian Centre for Robotic Vision, an Australian Research Council Future Fellow, Microsoft Research Faculty Fellow and Founding Director of the education startup Math Thrills Pty Ltd. He receives funding from the Australian Research Council, the Queensland Government, Caterpillar Corporation, Mining3, Microsoft, the Asian Office of Aerospace Research and Development and AMP.</span></em></p><p class="fine-print"><em><span>Juxi Leitner is a Research Fellow in the Australian Research Council funded Centre of Excellence in Robotic Vision. Juxi is founder of the Brisbane.AI and robotics interest groups, two not-for-profit organisations aiming to raise awareness about robotics and AI research in the general public and creating opportunities for communities to interact with local researchers.</span></em></p>The new Thor: Ragnarok movie out today tackles some of the superhero issues fans have long questioned. But how does the science stack up?Michael Milford, Professor, Queensland University of TechnologyJuxi Leitner, Research Fellow, Robotics & AI, Queensland University of TechnologyLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.tag:theconversation.com,2011:article/497502015-10-29T00:37:26Z2015-10-29T00:37:26ZCall the specialists: what Thor and Aliens could really do for the Australian film industry<figure><img src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/99937/original/image-20151028-21106-1g24sdr.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=496&fit=clip" /><figcaption><span class="caption">Gold Coast Mayor Tom Tate, Queensland Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk, Disney Studios Vice President Mary Ann Hughes and Screen Queensland CEO Tracey Vieira pose at Village Roadshow Studios on the Gold Coast last week. </span> <span class="attribution"><span class="source">AAP Image/Dave Hunt</span></span></figcaption></figure><p>Foreign minister Julie Bishop’s <a href="http://foreignminister.gov.au/releases/Pages/2015/jb_mr_151022c.aspx?w=tb1CaGpkPX%2FlS0K%2Bg9ZKEg%3D%3D">announcement</a> last week that Disney’s <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3501632/">Thor Ragnarok</a> (2017) and Ridley Scott’s <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2316204/?ref_=nm_flmg_dr_1">Alien prequel</a> (2017), are coming to Australia was a welcome relief to Australia’s specialist film crews. </p>
<p>If, as seems likely, the two are here at the same time, so much the better. It confirms that we have the capacity and resources to manufacture more than one major film at a time. </p>
<p>Historically, Australia has attracted a number of foreign service productions – films developed by foreign producers but brought here for production or post production. </p>
<p>They are large scale and labour intensive, shot in weatherproof sound stages in Sydney, Melbourne or the Gold Coast.</p>
<p>For every film, specialists are employed to rig the lights, build and paint the sets, weld the steel into place, hang the green screens, create the snow, the rain, the explosions – and execute the stunts. </p>
<p>It’s precision work. Intricate attention to detail is required from every specialist. Cultural manufacturing, if you will. </p>
<p>Australia has made a big investment in training the skilled, creative thinkers who can do this work – oscillating between technical and creative challenges, in stressful, just-in-time environments.</p>
<p>Yet in the past five years, as-yet unpublished research (by Abi Tabone) shows that most specialists working in this space have averaged just 60% of their time in employment. </p>
<p>It’s <em>their</em> jobs that will be created when Thor and Alien come to Australia. And it’s their jobs that will evaporate when production wraps. </p>
<h2>Reducing the white space</h2>
<p>Attracting more large-scale productions to Australia builds the capacity of this agile, knowledge-economy workforce. </p>
<p>But with 40% of the year spent unemployed or out-of-industry, it’s hard for specialists to stay or make the commitment to invest in equipment, training, and critical skills transfer.</p>
<p>The tables below are five-year calendars of the working lives of three of Australia’s most highly-skilled and sought-after heads of film departments.</p>
<figure class="align-center zoomable">
<a href="https://images.theconversation.com/files/99947/original/image-20151028-21090-1bsrtn0.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip"><img alt="" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/99947/original/image-20151028-21090-1bsrtn0.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/99947/original/image-20151028-21090-1bsrtn0.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=450&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/99947/original/image-20151028-21090-1bsrtn0.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=450&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/99947/original/image-20151028-21090-1bsrtn0.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=450&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/99947/original/image-20151028-21090-1bsrtn0.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=566&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/99947/original/image-20151028-21090-1bsrtn0.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=566&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/99947/original/image-20151028-21090-1bsrtn0.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=566&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px"></a>
<figcaption>
<span class="caption">Five-year work history of film department heads: example 1.</span>
<span class="attribution"><span class="source">Abigail Tabone Research Paper</span></span>
</figcaption>
</figure>
<figure class="align-center zoomable">
<a href="https://images.theconversation.com/files/99946/original/image-20151028-21130-1qcgvc6.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip"><img alt="" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/99946/original/image-20151028-21130-1qcgvc6.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/99946/original/image-20151028-21130-1qcgvc6.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=450&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/99946/original/image-20151028-21130-1qcgvc6.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=450&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/99946/original/image-20151028-21130-1qcgvc6.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=450&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/99946/original/image-20151028-21130-1qcgvc6.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=566&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/99946/original/image-20151028-21130-1qcgvc6.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=566&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/99946/original/image-20151028-21130-1qcgvc6.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=566&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px"></a>
<figcaption>
<span class="caption">Five-year work history of film department heads: example 2.</span>
<span class="attribution"><span class="source">Abigail Tabone Research Paper</span></span>
</figcaption>
</figure>
<figure class="align-center zoomable">
<a href="https://images.theconversation.com/files/99945/original/image-20151028-21125-1g33kyo.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip"><img alt="" src="https://images.theconversation.com/files/99945/original/image-20151028-21125-1g33kyo.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&fit=clip" srcset="https://images.theconversation.com/files/99945/original/image-20151028-21125-1g33kyo.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=600&h=450&fit=crop&dpr=1 600w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/99945/original/image-20151028-21125-1g33kyo.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=600&h=450&fit=crop&dpr=2 1200w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/99945/original/image-20151028-21125-1g33kyo.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=600&h=450&fit=crop&dpr=3 1800w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/99945/original/image-20151028-21125-1g33kyo.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=754&h=566&fit=crop&dpr=1 754w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/99945/original/image-20151028-21125-1g33kyo.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=30&auto=format&w=754&h=566&fit=crop&dpr=2 1508w, https://images.theconversation.com/files/99945/original/image-20151028-21125-1g33kyo.jpg?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=15&auto=format&w=754&h=566&fit=crop&dpr=3 2262w" sizes="(min-width: 1466px) 754px, (max-width: 599px) 100vw, (min-width: 600px) 600px, 237px"></a>
<figcaption>
<span class="caption">Five-year work history of film department heads: example 3.</span>
<span class="attribution"><span class="source">Abigail Tabone Research Paper</span></span>
</figcaption>
</figure>
<p>As the tables show, they’ve had to work interstate and overseas for long periods in order to sustain a living. The white space is months spent out of work. Over five years, it adds up.</p>
<p>The reduction of white space – where a studio remains empty, and people are not employed – should be the goal here. </p>
<p>It’s about building the capacity, and the consistency of work, so that the production line is closer to full capacity in the three states set up to support it. </p>
<p>Consistency would create a virtuous circle, with greater throughput of production enabling more investment in skills and capacity, which in turn would lead to improved and more efficient service delivery, resulting in a more competitive offering, which would attract more production – and so on.</p>
<p>Film production operates in a global marketplace. The trend over the past 15 to 20 years has been for Hollywood studios to write and package their films at home, and then shop them around the world to be made offshore. </p>
<p>The federal government continues to pursue these productions because they attract foreign investment, create opportunities for Australian cast and crew, and produce residual benefits for the local screen ecology. </p>
<p>We’re close. Certainly the falling dollar will help. But fundamentally, the policy design should be robust enough to withstand dollar fluctuations, so that this work can flourish.</p>
<h2>The knowledge economy at work</h2>
<p>This is the knowledge economy at work. The production methodologies employed are cutting-edge. They change rapidly. Film sits at a neat juncture between creative ideas and technical execution. </p>
<p>It’s the kind of work a future-looking Australia should be celebrating: collaborative, intricate, and highly skilled. </p>
<p>The next phase in foreign service production is for the sector to work closely with government, aligning metrics and key performance indicators that move beyond one or two “good news” announcements annually or a simply tally of jobs created – which as Jason Potts has <a href="https://theconversation.com/film-thor-promises-an-australian-jobs-bonanza-but-dont-believe-the-hype-49745">noted on The Conversation</a>, can be hard to measure and are often overstated. </p>
<p>Cultural manufacturing does create jobs. But it also contributes to technical breakthroughs, unusual problem-solving, and the development of new filmmaking technologies. Many of these may have applications beyond the film industry, in scientific, health and media fields. </p>
<p>Focusing on the work itself – not just the Hollywood stars who come to town – will increase the absorptive capacity of the foreign service production sector. </p>
<p>It will build a sector that can attract and retain the best talent, engineer cleaner, greener production methodologies, identify technical brilliance, and share it with the world. A sector that can help reposition Australia as a high-performing partner, serving the global imagination.</p>
<p>And a sector that can contribute to <a href="http://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/media/transcript-vote-on-the-liberal-party-leadership">Prime Minister Turnbull’s</a> vision of an Australia that “is agile, that is innovative, that is creative”.</p><img src="https://counter.theconversation.com/content/49750/count.gif" alt="The Conversation" width="1" height="1" />
<p class="fine-print"><em><span>Abi Tabone iis a director of Blue Tongue Screens Pty Ltd. </span></em></p><p class="fine-print"><em><span>David Court does not work for, consult, own shares in or receive funding from any company or organisation that would benefit from this article, and has disclosed no relevant affiliations beyond their academic appointment.</span></em></p>For every film, specialists are employed for everything from rigging the lights executing the stunts. The announcement of two major new productions coming to Australia will develop that expertise.David Court, Subject Leader, Screen Business, Australian Film, Television and Radio SchoolAbi Tabone, Masters in Screen Arts & Business, Australian Film, Television and Radio SchoolLicensed as Creative Commons – attribution, no derivatives.