It would be truly wonderful to live in the world inhabited solely by proponents of porn. In this apparently post-capitalist world, where sexual freedoms abound, there is no need to worry about violence against women. In this world, pornography is simply the representation of a rainbow of sexual desires and using pornography to masturbate to orgasm constitutes a form of blissful political resistance.
The problem is, of course, that this world doesn’t exist. The era of avant-garde porn (if it ever occurred at all) is long gone and the global pornography industry is now an economic powerhouse. While exact figures are often debated, there is a general consensus that the market for porn rivals those for popular music, Hollywood movies, and professional sports.
The vast majority of the mainstream content that feeds this market is live-actor porn: its production requires real people. Pornography is therefore not just a representation but also a practice and there is still precious little recognition of the hazards that performers face. From the significant risk of sexually transmitted infections to the threat of having “the shit kicked out of you“ by a colleague on set.
That there is a danger of physical violence for performers should hardly be surprising given the content of modern commercial pornography. Those within the porn industry itself have, for almost a decade, been voicing concerns over the increasingly violent nature of mainstream porn. In Selling Sex Short, for example, I provide a number of insider perspectives from directors and performers worried about the physically and psychologically punishing nature of US-based porn in the early 2000s.
These industry-based concerns are supported by one of the most recent academic content analyses of bestselling pornography which found that almost 90% of scenes “contained physical aggression, principally spanking, gagging and slapping,” and that “perpetrators of aggression were usually male, whereas targets of aggression were overwhelmingly female.”
The message here is hardly subversive. It is the familiar narrative of women enjoying being sexually dominated and abused that feminists have criticised and fought against for decades.
There is also mounting evidence of the broader cultural effects of the proliferation of porn. The School of Advanced International Studies at John Hopkins recently published research which claims pornography can be linked to increases in sex trafficking. Not to mention the growing reports from psychologists and sex therapists about the damaging nature of pornography use in many relationships. And teachers worried about the changing sexual expectations of a generation who have routinely accessed hard-core imagery before even reaching adolescence.
Reviewing and engaging with these reports need not constitute a “moral panic” or amount to a call for censorship. It simply means that it is time to face up to the fact that there are problems with porn. Claiming pornography has made the world a better place might make for good copy, but it does not make for good scholarship.
To be clear, there are undoubtedly debates to be had about the emerging research on the harms of pornography, but sticking our heads in the sand is no longer an option. The persistent failure of many pro-porn scholars to seriously engage with recent critiques make claims of pornography’s benevolence look like climate change denial. Increasingly, the basic logic of the support for pornography, recently illustrated on The Conversation by Professor Brian McNair, relies on falsehoods and contradictions.
First is the popular argument that porn is harmless because it has no effect on the attitudes or actions of viewers. This is often quickly followed by the suggestion that porn can also be a useful tool for sex education or for introducing liberating ideas about non-normative sex. Both of these propositions cannot be true. We’re essentially left with the inconsistent assertion that pornography can have an effect, but only when the outcome is deemed to be a positive one.
Second, and related to the “no effect” thesis, is the idea that pornography merely represents the culture in which it is created. But, like any other form of media, pornography both represents and creates culture. It is odd that an exclusive focus on representation continues to gain such traction in porn studies when, in other areas of communications theory, a more complex interaction between culture and media is widely recognised.
Third is the argument that porn cannot be implicated in creating or perpetuating cultures of violence against women because in places where porn is most freely accessible, women are most free from sexual violence. It is frequently then implied that porn promotes women’s sexual freedom. Again, this is a basic flaw in logic: correlation does not equal causation.
But this final argument is more insidious than flawed logic; it papers over the appalling rates of violence against women in places like Australia. In any given year, in this country, almost half a million women will experience physical or sexual assault by a current or former partner and less than a third will report it. If the assault is sexual, only about one in ten will access support or legal services.
The reality is we live in a culture where violence against women is still a serious problem. Pornography alone does not, in and of itself, create or cause this problem. But the high rates of violence and aggression in porn certainly reflect the problem and, further, often glamourise and eroticise it.
Facing up to these issues is not pleasant. But it is important. Because we don’t live in a fantasy world.
Mike Swinbourne
logged in via Facebook
I'm a little confused Meagan.
You quote studies which supposedly link pornography to all sorts of evils, but then you come up with this:
"....It is frequently then implied that porn promotes women’s sexual freedom. Again, this is a basic flaw in logic: correlation does not equal causation...."
If correlation does not equal causation when a positive benefit is being espoused, it is both disengenuous and hypocritical to imply that a causation exists for the negative links, without demonstrating that causation. As you say yourself, this "does not make for good scholarship".
It may well be the case that pornography can have negative influences and might harbour a dark side, and there may well be the case to work towards reducing these negatives. But to deny the positives in doing so just makes you appear unbalanced.
Joanna Kyriakakis
Lecturer in Law at Monash University
Thanks for this article Meagan. I think it is actually very modest and balanced. In that respect, I disagree Mike. I think Meagan is making only a modest point that those who suggest porn is not harmful are failing to grapple with the many studies that suggest harms connected to the porn industry. She does not argue that porn is causative of violence against women but simply that there is a complex relationship between violence in our societies and media which is recognised in other areas and ought to be here. So in fact she is saying exactly what you suggest - that there is a case towards addressing negatives.
Mike Swinbourne
logged in via Facebook
Sorry Joanna, but I cannot agree with what you are saying.
The title of this article clearly states that porn is harmful to women, and there are numerous inferences scattered throughout that porn is - at the very least - a contributer to violence against women. You might like to suggest that Meagan does not argue that porn is causative of violence against women, but there is the very clear inference in much of the article that that is the case.
And in drawing that inference, she has failed to provide the causative mechanism for the supposed correlation (which is not shown either), while arbitrarily dismissing the suggested benefits to women with the claim that causation does not equal correlation.
I agree of course. But as I suggested, that claim works for both sides of the argument, not just one.
Stephen S Holden
Associate Professor, Marketing at Bond University
I completely agree with Mike's comment - if correlation doesn't work for positive effects, then it cannot be enlisted to show negative effects. And here's the root of the problem. I'm sure the anti-porn apologists wish to claim that porn leads to violence against women, but where's the evidence? I don't see this as balanced contribution on this topic (sorry Joanna), but rather I see it as rather emotive (as noted by a number of commentators) and lacking good evidence to support the claim being made.
Linus Bowden
management consultant
Joanna
There are no "studies", let alone "scholarship" to "grapple with". You people are merely rehashing the 1970s bovine low-IQ cult of Unscholarly kooks like Andrea Dworkin. You've been exposed. Just come clean, and apologize.
Tim Scanlon
Debunker
I really wish this research area wasn't as emotive as it appears to be. I'm yet to see a balanced argument on this.
For example, the paper cited that shows the high rates of violence selected an interesting list of titles. The production houses alone show that much of the content is aimed at 'hard sex' (S&M having a high relationship in the study). This is part of the fantasy element that porn provides, which is entirely discarded in this article. (draft version of paper here: http://convention2…
Read moreLinus Bowden
management consultant
The first thing that strikes about this zombie genre of sex discourse is its hyper-anxiety about commerce. It sounds just like the anti-capitalist spiels from my Trotsykist and Maoist university lecturers in the 1980s. Except 30 years later, it's lost any rousing bouquet it might once have had, and turned very sour indeed.
Read more"It would be truly wonderful to live in the world inhabited solely by proponents of porn. In this apparently post-capitalist world."
Are you saying that ‘proponents of porn…
Comment removed by moderator.
Stuart Smith
logged in via Facebook
Disclaimer: I’m anti-porn whether hetero or gay. That aside, this theme of discussion shows how conflicted we are as a society. The division in the feminist camp between porn as empowerment and porn as enslavement is one that I don’t believe early feminists would have anticipated. We’ve also created new moralities forsaking older [religion-based] moralities to either accommodate [porn as free choice] or reject [porn as a contributor to violence against women]. It is such a divisive issue that…
Read moreCraig Minns
Self-employed
I wonder how much of the increase in porn that depicts humiliation of women is a response to the feminist social construction and its constant denigration of men?
Sue Ieraci
Public hospital clinician
Feminism causes men to humiliate women? Craig wins the "blaming the victim" prize.
Craig Minns
Self-employed
I asked a question Sue. You will no doubt be surprised to learn that the way knowledge increases is by asking questions then trying to answer them.
I must thank you for providing such a clear demonstration of a dogwhistling feminist denigration though. Well done you.
So much better than having to think, eh, let alone think about things that don't suit your political agenda.
Trevor S
Jack of all Trades
Putting aside the debate for a minute, what is it you hope to achieve ? I assume (?) that you would like to see a ban introduced ? I have no idea on Earth how that can possibly be achieved. Every time I see prohibition used in a morals campaign (and stripping away the Emperor's clothes, that's what it is), it's circumventing by consumers has typically disastrous consequences. One only has to look at current drug policy to see evidence of that.
I think you should perhaps consider that the ill you perceive might bring about a cure that's far, far worse.
Alice Gorman
Lecturer in Archaeology at Flinders University
Meagan states in her article: "Reviewing and engaging with these reports need not constitute a “moral panic” or amount to a call for censorship".
Comment removed by moderator.
Craig Minns
Self-employed
" In any given year, in this country, almost half a million women will experience physical or sexual assault by a current or former partner and less than a third will report it."
I'm completely fed up with this constant reiteration of guesswork as though it were hard data.
If it is not reported, then it is not measurable. If it is not measurable it is no more than a pretence. If it is a pretence, then it is not a useful contribution to the discussion.
Despite this, the vast industry that relies for its existence on that pretence is allowed to continue to spruik it as though it were a piece of empirical data, skewing the debate and creating a sense of genderised fear and loathing.
Just stop it, it's dishonest.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
The only male poster to this topic who does not approve of porn because "I believe people shouldn’t be paying for sex or paying to view sex". However, then he does not believe women have ever been violated because he personally has never seen a woman with a black eye. Sheesh.
So we move from the ridiculous to the "sublime" where all other male contributors (so far) dispute that violence in porn has any effect on interaction between men and women at all. One stating he is "completely fed up with…
Read moreDianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
"Prove that there is NO casual link between violent porn and rape."
Should read:
"Prove that there is NO causal link between violent porn and rape."
Typos. We all make them.
Craig Minns
Self-employed
Dianna, nobody is disputing violence happens. What I dispute is that there is any validity to making up numbers, such as "2/3 of violence is unreported". It leads to people like you thinking that all men are violent and it doesn't assist in understanding.
I could make up figures about the prevalence of all sorts of things, such as "2/3 of people who identify as environmentalists have an undiagnosed mental illness that prevents them from understanding simple English",but that woudn't make it right.
If I was in a field in which having such a statement accepted was linked with me being able to obtain funding, it would be despicably dishonest and self-serving.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
Craig
I have never claimed that ALL men are violent. Not once. Even though I am a refugee from an abusive marriage. I know too many wonderful compassionate men to even think of what you are claiming about me.
If you like violent porn, then you must also be able to stand scrutiny and criticism. Violent porn is not for everyone - yet whenever the slightest critique of the industry is made, a voluble chorus attempts to drown out any debate or argument. Freedom is earned and if the freedom to watch men, women and children being degraded sexually is to be maintained, then responsible discussion is to be encouraged and not dismissed as always happens when someone has the temerity to question "violent porn - is it healthy, productive and conducive to adult relationships?"
Linus Bowden
management consultant
Earth to Diana. Why is that over precisely the same period that pornographic consumption has exploded and allegedly got much nastier and aggressive, that violence against women - yes, including domestic and sexual violence - has plummeted so spectacularly? Even in the Gender Studies anti-porn academic's most dystopian citadel of evil capitalism! Yes, that's right, in the US, between 1994 and 2010, every single violence against women variable has plummeted by at least 60%, reaching 80% in some categories…
Read moreDale Bloom
Analyst
Dianna Art
With all the “appalling” amount of violence against women, (according to this article), one would expect to see evidence of it, but I have never seen a woman with a black eye, and only very rarely have I seen a woman with a single bruise.
I think all this “violence against women” stuff is just made up.
If I did want to watch violence, I would just have to watch TV, or watch American movies.
However, I don’t think people should be paying money for sex, or pay money to view nudity. Next people will be asked to pay money to breath.
So I reject porn if people are asked to pay money to view sex or view nudity, if that constitutes porn.
Michael Wilbur-Ham (MWH)
Writer (ex telecommunications engineer)
Dale - What a great way to solve the words problems:
You havn't seen domestic violence - so it doesn't exist.
And if you havn't seen poverty, someone dying of AIDS, or already experienced the effects of climate change, then none of these things exist either!
Happy days (if only).
Seamus Gardiner
Citizen
I rather thought that porn reflects the casual sex that consenting adults may indulge in, be it submissive or otherwise. To state that porn is the opposite of an intimate relationship may be true but then so is a casual relationship, which does not infer that sex that is not part of an intimate relationship is debased.
I am not arguing that porn may debase the actors, both male and female, when it indulges the baser aspects of the sexual spectrum and may indeed debase the viewer. I'm not arguing against the pernicious effect of nasty porn, but I do assert that the aact of porn creation is a consensual process and removing the rights of women to trade their bodies and assert the power therein may have unintended consequences. For instance, what about lesbian porn created by women?
Judith Olney
Ms
Dianna, you raise some interesting points in this very complex discussion.
In my opinion, I think that the prevalence of pornography in our society is responsible for the disconnection of love and intimacy, from the sexual act.
There has always been pornography, and there have always been those that have desired the removal of intimacy and love from the sexual act, as this suits their desires, and their desire is to have sex become a commodity, of which they can buy and consume, without any…
Read moreChris O'Neill
Telecommunications Engineer
Judith Olney: "it is a commodity to be bought and sold"
Where do people who make porn for no financial reward fit into this?
Clifford Chapman
Retired English Teacher
I personally think a much more difficult truth for many feminists to face up to, is that not only do many women enjoy porn but that many females willingly participate in porn. I well remember Germaine Greer trotting out something similar to this article many years ago in the English 'The Sunday Times', and, boy, did she receive a barrage in response from readers, and not all of them male either, by any means.
Sorry to be pedantic, Meagan Tyler, but the 'general consensus' in your second paragraph, had me reeling almost from the beginning.
Craig Minns
Self-employed
Dianna, I haven't made a comment about violent porn on this thread. I'm afraid your comment in regard to my views is as speculative as the claim that over 2/3 of all violence against women is unreported.
For the record, it's also wrong. I much prefer watching porn that depicts a couple mutually enjoying themselves if I watch it at all. There is a great deal of eroticism in a woman enjoying sex and very little in seeing someone being brutalised, at least for those of us who are not sociopathic.
As others have said, I suspect this is the most common preference, although the number of women offering "cam" services for payment seems to quite high, suggesting that many people are happy to dispense with the male's involvement in the action.
Perhaps lots of feminist women are subscribing?
Michael Wilbur-Ham (MWH)
Writer (ex telecommunications engineer)
What worries me most about this article and the earlier https://theconversation.edu.au/porn-doesnt-lead-to-rape-culture-10957 is the lack of academic rigour in both. Both authors have taken a side - porn is either good or bad - and written a book to promote this view.
Both authors seem to be so high up their ivory towers that they don't have an internet connection as neither seem to have looked at much porn.
McNair thinks that "Porn has been a source of safe sex education in the era of HIV…
Read moreMichael Wilbur-Ham (MWH)
Writer (ex telecommunications engineer)
What would happen if Australia could 'magically' eliminate all porn?
The anti-porn side makes the assumption that this would reduce rape, sexual assault, and domestic violence.
But as porn provides an outlet for sexual frustration, and almost porn shows consensual sex, I think it more likely that eliminating porn would lead to an increase in rape etc.
We know from the past that rape etc happens in a world without porn. We know from comparing 1970 with 2011 that a massive increase in porn doesn't lead to a big increase in rape. So what reason is there that eliminating porn would reduce rape, etc?
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
@ MWH
"What would happen if Australia could 'magically' eliminate all porn?"
I don't believe that is possible do you?
What we can do is have a debate about the merits/cons of porn without having to run the gauntlet of easily threatened porn fans, who fear they will have their pet pleasures taken from them if the porn industry is opened to scrutiny.
Would rapes and murders reduce? I don't know. Be a good thing though wouldn't it?
However, I do know what it is like to work in an environment where every Thursday lunch the male workers would go to a lap dancing bar for a bit of R&R and having to work with them in the afternoon feeling that I could never be considered a valid equal worker given what they had just been viewing.
Michael Wilbur-Ham (MWH)
Writer (ex telecommunications engineer)
Dianna - I don't think it would be possible to ban porn in a democracy, hence my saying 'magically'.
It would be a good thing to reduce rapes, etc. But I suspect that banning porn might increase the number of rapes and sexual assault.
I'm sorry to hear that you work in such an old-style macho environment. But put the same people into the 50's and I fear that they would be even more brutish. At least today there are better laws and company policies to protect women - and it sounds like some of your colleagues could be breaking laws or company policies.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
@ MWH
I no longer work in that environment. Very annoying as it was lab work and I loved messing around with all kinds of experiments.
"The anti-porn side makes the assumption that this would reduce rape, sexual assault, and domestic violence. "
I do not believe that blanket banning of porn would lead to a reduction in sexual assault.
What we really need to examine is why sexual assault is so common? Does porn play a part as a trigger? Or would the sexual predator (who is often an intimate…
Read moreDianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
Here's some down to earth advice to any young men who may be trying to follow this discussion:
http://www.askmen.com/dating/love_tip_400/405_love_tip.html
It is a simple explanation to the inexperienced person what is fantasy (porn) and what is real. Basically, if you want to do something with your partner ask him/her first. If you saw it acted out in porn it is not necessarily possible or even desirable with your partner.
Judging from the majority of responses to this topic by some men…
Read moreMichael Wilbur-Ham (MWH)
Writer (ex telecommunications engineer)
Dianna, I agree with you that most porn is not good intimate sex.
(One big problem is that is not just the men thinking that what they see in porn is what they want but women viewing porn and thinking that this is how they should act to please their partner. Women view porn as well and a sensitive man can feel intimidated when a women expects porno style sex from him.)
I know that extreme porn is being made, and viewed, and is making people money.
But what are MOST people viewing? Firstly, most people now view porn for free on the internet. Judging the popularity of porn by sales of videos or DVDS is like judging the popularity of music by sales of vinyl records.
I did provide evidence of the most popular viewed porn. The most viewed porn on the first free video site on google showed what most people watch. And this isn't just some academic experiment - this is the real world showing has how many million people viewed each clip.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
@ MWH
Do I think some women can be just as judgemental and ignorant as some men?
Absolutely. And this ignorance is readily exploited by the ever accommodating porn industry.
If you believe that most porn is all sweetness and light and no one ever gets hurt, I will not disabuse you - that's a nice safe place to be.
Of course, homeless children, disfunctional teens or other vulnerable people are never exploited in the porn industry either. All men really, really respect women and all women understand that size is not important.
Yeah, riiiight.
Michael Wilbur-Ham (MWH)
Writer (ex telecommunications engineer)
Dianna - I write about sex and have a photo-blog on Tumblr. To select the photos for my Tumblr I have to look through say a hundred photos each day. (Some of the porn Tumblrs I follow are written by women). I have a pretty good idea of what is out there.
There is extreme stuff. With photos there is also lots of mild stuff (pin-up photos of old). One point I'm making is that most people are looking at photos and videos that are not at the extreme end.
My other key point is that most porn is…
Read moreChris O'Neill
Telecommunications Engineer
"there are undoubtedly debates to be had about the emerging research on the harms of pornography"
I find it a little bizarre that there is such a thing as "pornography research". Be that as it may, I hope there are far more resources put into human relationship research with the objective of helping people to relate better with people that they actually deal with.
John Coochey
Mr
How would you view the record sale of "Fifty Shades of Grey" mostly it appears to women?
Tim Scanlon
Debunker
Don't be silly John. Porn isn't written down.
Remember the rule of thumb: when men like it, it is porn, when women like it, it is erotica.
It used to be easier, erotica was using a feather, porn was using the whole chicken.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
The book "Fifty Shades of Grey" has never "appeared" to me. But if it did, I'm sure it would be useful for something, say a door stop, fire starter, bog roll, garden mulch.
John use your imagination.
John Coochey
Mr
Well Diana might not like Fifty Shades of Grey (having never read it) but it is not all about her. It is obvious large numbers of women do as they like The Story of O which of course was also written by a woman. The issue is not what one middle class woman likes but the fact that "mummy porn" is selling at record levels. If it denigrates women why?
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
Only women approved by John Coochey may answer.
Linus Bowden
management consultant
Diana, I also find the silence of women on this thread to be somewhat disturbing, especially from the author and the usual suspects - Helen Pringle, etc. Could it be they are too ashamed after other contributors here have done the real heavy lifting by actually paying close attention to the arguments made the anti-porn gender feminists, and exposed the sham evidence they rely on, and woeful critical thinking?
Clifford Chapman
Retired English Teacher
Tim Scanlon
That's a foul thing to say!
Tim Scanlon
Debunker
It is actually a quote from Isabel Allende: http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/81129-erotica-is-using-a-feather-pornograpy-is-using-the-whole?
Clifford Chapman
Retired English Teacher
Tim Scanlon
Sorry, Tim, I meant as in 'fowl'.
I know, it's a paltry joke.
Tim Scanlon
Debunker
Seems we were on different sides of the road for that joke.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
I am not opposed to all porn. I have never stated such. I believe that the majority of porn is produced responsibly and safely. Nor do I have a problem with a casual hook-up - I'd be a hypocrite if I made that claim.
;)
What I am concerned about is the black market trade where people (that's women, men & children) are exploited. This is a very profitable and thriving part of the industry. Which prompts the question, why? There are many people, most unfortunately male, who will pay for this…
Read moreChris O'Neill
Telecommunications Engineer
"Why is it, when a woman has the temerity to question porn, is it automatically assumed she is some kind of wowser whose opinions are to be dismissed?"
Perhaps because a distinction between the types of porn you talk about fails to be made e.g.:
"Facing up to the difficult truth about how porn harms women"
No distinction there.
Grant Phillips
project officer
I am not surprised that mainstream commercially available pornography, which are made by well established pornographic producers, contain measurable physical aggression.
But this article seems to exclude the much much larger mostly amateur online only segments, which make a range of content which covers a variety of sexual activities and fetishes.
I think basing the numbers just on sales from established producers will only reveal a very small amount of the total. So at the moment the number of people and what they are watching is unquantifiable.
Sue Ieraci
Public hospital clinician
I read the article differently, Grant Phillips. The author repeatedly makes a point about violence in the context of pornography.
What she appears to be saying is not that all porn is harmful, but that there is a tendency in the industry to say that all porn is harmLESS - and clearly this isn't true.
I don't hear anyone calling for all porn to be banned, but only to continue to consider, and mitigate, the potential harms.
And while the majority of aggressors are male and victims are women in straight porn, there are no doubt also male victims of violence in a gay-violence sub-genre. It's legitimate to discuss mitigating the harms without having a panic about all porn disappearing,. That is highly unlikely.
Meagan Tyler
Lecturer in Sociology at Victoria University
Given some of the comments here, I do need to point out that as an an author I don't choose the title of the piece.
If you want to understand the point that is being made, I suggest you read the whole article. Even better, try reading some of the links to the academic research that are cited it.
Craig Minns
Self-employed
Megan, could you be putting the cart before the horse? In other words, as I asked earlier, could the violence/humiliation prevalent in some porn be a preference on the part of consumers (mostly young men, I suspect) created by a pervasive sense that society has become a hostile place in which they have no power, in the same way that the Mills and Boon novel was popular with women in the 70s and 80s who felt unappreciated in their relationships?
You say in the article:"Third is the argument that…
Read moreLinus Bowden
management consultant
Megan, no it is YOU who does not get the issues. And it is rather rude of you to tell us to read your piece, when this thread is filled is filled with detailed engagement with both your reasoning and the evidence you use.
Chris O'Neill
Telecommunications Engineer
"as an an author I don't choose the title of the piece"
That's astounding. What sort of system is this that doesn't allow authors to choose their own titles? And if the author doesn't like the title, surely the first thing she or he should mention is that the title is not an accurate representation of their position. Do the editors not care about misleading the readership? I know from personal experience that newspaper editors do this sort of thing. Perhaps The Conversation editors are no better.
Linus Bowden
management consultant
Good grief, now you're blaming the Media Studies girls in the office for not understanding your piece. What next, the dog ate your homework?
Emily Smith
logged in via Facebook
Craig,
well, I think that the answer is more simple. Porn industry expanded, and men hold more economic power, so of course that most porn is made from their perspective.
According to experts, however, it does not cause increase in real violence. It may have some other harmful effects though.
Jennifer Lane
Service manager
Last weekend I saw a porn clip where a woman had a leather cord pushed up her nose, down her throat & tied around her tongue to form a gag. I'm a sociology student & was surprised at how simple it was to find something like this after a short Google search. To those who argue the normative representation line I'd love an explanation about images like this. Like I said this was not some exclusive pay as you go site, it was a link that came up during a Google search. One I will not repeat now as I…
Read moreMichael Wilbur-Ham (MWH)
Writer (ex telecommunications engineer)
Jennifer - I'm surprised that a sociology student is surprised that it is very easy to find extreme things on the internet.
Has anyone said that this stuff doesn't exist? And has anyone said that the extreme end is a 'normative representation'?
We are now at the stage where most people below a certain age have watched lots of porn before their first sexual experiences. I'm sure that this makes a difference.
What you miss with your daughter's likely future is that she too will be likely to have viewed much porn before she sees a real naked man. Porn is not just changing how men think but how women think as well.
Linus Bowden
management consultant
"I'm a sociology student & was surprised at how simple it was to find something like this after a short Google search. To those who argue the normative representation line I'd love an explanation about images like this."
Might we suggest that you rethink your current education investments? Clearly either the university you attend, or the discipline of Sociology itself is not working for you, if you have to come here to ask such questions.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
@ Jennifer Lane
Thanks for actually presenting an opinion on the topic. It is scenes such as you describe that appear to be an acceptable part of pornography.
I have asked if there are any men who wish to discuss how they feel about the darker aspects of porn, but so far no one has been prepared to step forward (apart from MHW) and state whether they are concerned at our sons and daughters being misled or exploited by the porn industry.
The only man to respond directly to the topic and…
Read moreLinus Bowden
management consultant
Diana, I love smutty blog chats as much as the next bloke, but somehow I don't think the thread would last long. Besides, the issue here is a university lecturer actually getting articles and books published, and now on this site, based on waffle, no critical thinking, and completely at odds with not only with common adult perceptions about the real world, but the hard data that confirms those common adult perceptions are correct.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
@ Linus B
"Diana, I love smutty blog chats as much as the next bloke"
Quelle surprise.
I ascertained as much given your obfuscation of the topic and attempts to derail any discussion of whether the depiction of porn causes harm to people.
You are content with the status quo.
My questions were not for you. I have given up on any expectation that any male readers here are willing to listen to women on the topic of porn - the topic as presented by Meagan Tyler; specifically whether the images are harmful to women.
I believe obtaining sexual gratification from watching people being abused, treated as objects is not conducive towards a healthy equal relationship between men and women.
However, Linus, you like it. Well the porn industry is on your side, it caters to men just like you.
Stuart Smith
logged in via Facebook
@ Dianna Art - "The only man to respond directly to the topic and with a degree of courtesy..." I hardly think my post was without courtesy. Quite frankly the tone of discussion on this topic has been unnecessarily hostile and unbecoming of people who theoretically wanted to engage in a genuine debate.
Michael Wilbur-Ham (MWH)
Writer (ex telecommunications engineer)
Dianna - The sexual technique that I promote removes male dominance and give the female the power to make things great for herself and for him. So personally male dominated sex is not to my taste.
But what people like varies widely - especially in sex.
Safe, sane, consensual and fun BDSM is something that some people enjoy very much. Part of this is some people (men and women) enjoy submission, some people enjoy receiving pain in the right context, and some even enjoy being humiliated…
Read moreLinus Bowden
management consultant
Diana
"I put the observation to the male posters that if they were adult enough to watch porn, then they are adult enough to discuss porn>"
And yet when I decline to do so, as admin would shut the thread down, you then get all school marmish with your "Quelle surprise".
Newsflash. I am not the one trawling blogs trying to get members of the opposite sex to talk dirty to them! I suggest you'd be better off at adult matchmaker, or some similar site.
Clifford Chapman
Retired English Teacher
What did you Google: 'Taking your dog for a walk?'
Stuart Smith
logged in via Facebook
@ Dianna Art - "The only man to respond directly to the topic and with a degree of courtesy..." I hardly think my post was without courtesy. Quite frankly the tone of discussion on this topic has been unnessarily hostile and unbecoming of people who theoretically wanted to engage in a genuine debate.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
Apologies Stuart Smith I did not see your comments. Guess I was successfully derailed by others.
I agree with everything you have stated. I guess I did not inspire you to respond to my comments. Would've been good to have had some exchange without feeling I had to qualify every single word as if walking on egg shells. I really don't want to stand between a man and his porn ;)
But would like to talk about it. However, where I am it is dinner time and I have more pressing responsibilities than walking the minefield of questioning porn and its impact on our young people and ourselves.
"Again an opinion, it is symptomatic of a society that simultaneously wants freedom but can’t agree on what that actually means."
I agree. As a society we want freedom, but also to be free from consequences or responsibilities. Childish.
Stuart Smith
logged in via Facebook
I would have been happy to respond, but you specified that it was for women only.
Clifford Chapman
Retired English Teacher
Stuart, I'm certainly not going to enter into a debate with someone who rudely says things like:
'Seeing as I can't get any honest (sic) answers from most of the male posters' and 'I have given up on any expectation that any male readers here are willing to listen to women on the topic of porn'.
Is it any surprise?
Stuart Smith
logged in via Facebook
Clifford, we can't choose our circumstances but we can choose our response. As we consider ourselves more or less civilised it is incumbent upon us that we choose a civilised response. In the circumstances you identify an appropriate response would be to choose a de-escalating feedback loop. To establish the loop would require one person to look beyond the rhetoric of the other towards the heart of the topic and to construct positive posts that address the topic only. In simple terms, courtesy costs nothing but can buy you much.
And for the record, my comment on civility is for all. Civilisation is an act of the will, not a state of nature. It is something we have to work at.
Clifford Chapman
Retired English Teacher
Stuart Smith
That's a good point you've made, Stuart, and I admit, I can't personally see myself doing that, even though it is a laudable response to make and position to take.
I don't see how a rational debate is possible with so much emotive language being used and obvious agendas being set before you even start..
And for the record, I personally am totally opposed to violence against women, whether in relation to porn or in life generally.
But what this average article does, as its highly emotive title makes clear, is reveal the ideological claptrap of another asinine either/or approach to issues. It's not even profound enough to be implicit or require a reading between the lines, the agenda is that obvious, as its feeble title suggests.
'Women are victims, men the villains' is what this article is really saying. I mean, what kind of university approaches issues with that sort of dishwater thinking?
Michael Wilbur-Ham (MWH)
Writer (ex telecommunications engineer)
Clifford - you need to keep up with the comments.
The author has pointed out that (as is common in the media) she did not write the title. So let's be fair and ignore the title now that this has been made clear.
But the author does link porn with violence against women, despite the fact that violence against women, if anything, has gone down since 1970 yet porn has gone from almost nothing to something that is available for free in most homes. So I agree with you that the author has ignored reality.
Stuart Smith
logged in via Facebook
I can’t speak with too much authority to the ideological motivation of the article, primarily because to state categorically on the matter I would need the respective authors to state their motivation. I do note that modern feminism is split on the issue [see an earlier post from me]. There is a substantial body of research [see the book “Pornland” by Prof. Gail Dines for a start] on pornography and its effects on modern culture [particularly western culture]. There are also complimentary disciplines…
Read moreClifford Chapman
Retired English Teacher
Michael, I did read that, and fair enough, but I think someone also commented that that needed pointing out by the author in her opening paragraph. Besides, whoever is responsible for the title is not necessarily the issue, unless the title really does not reflect or make sense with the article that follows.
It really is as simple as you have stated in another recent reply, the concept and reality of consensuality, a word which probably doesn't exist but which, in this context makes sense, if only to me. No-one in their right mind can justify a non-consensual sexual act, or any other, for that matter, between two or more adults, always allowing for what a society sees as being the adult age, Surely that is why we see the sexual abuse of children as so abhorrent? It's a crime that can shake you to your foundations.
I just think that many feminists find it difficult to accept a lot of women aren't, ipso facto, feminists, basically.
Clifford Chapman
Retired English Teacher
Stuart, that's a great post and thanks for it, even though I'll stick to my 'women are victims, men the villains' line, which I think is the underlying reality of this piece of fiction.
But you do raise very interesting points. We are a complicated creature, with all sorts of unfathomable things running through us so who knows, but the effects of this complicated conundrum, when feminists offer their superficial analysis, is to disregard, or poultice over, the causes. It's too black and white with them, so thus with the Moors Murders, for example, Brady corrupted Hindley or Rose West only killed because her husband made her. Prostitutes are forced into it by evil men, they're not women exploiting their considerable assets.
I mean, in a conscious being, let's not forget the strange power the hunted has over the hunter.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
@ Stuart Smith
Snap. "I would have been happy to respond, but you specified that it was for women only."
I admitted I had not read your earlier post and you appear not to have read mine.
I put the observation to the male posters that if they were adult enough to watch porn, then they are adult enough to discuss porn. No one apart from MHW and very lately yourself has been prepared to discuss the topic. Others have made spurious claims about Meagan's article without engaging the topic at…
Read moreStuart Smith
logged in via Facebook
OK, well I'll entertain the questions then, but with one simple answer. I don't watch, read or look at pornography and neither does my wife. I therefore can't answer any of the other questions.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
@ Stuart Smith
One of my requests was for honesty. That you have done so, thank you.
& MHW
I do not have the energy right now to present some further thought on this fraught issue, apart from one observation:
The increased availability of porn has coincided with reduced statistics of sexual crimes, apparently. I suppose this is good, that my chances of being raped are mitigated because some men can gain relief from watching film or photographs of people being sexually humiliated or degraded.
I look forward to a time when it is not necessary for adults to find relief in the denigration of others, can see other people as valid equals and not obliging receptacles.
That if I smile at someone he is not thinking what I would look like with a gag in my mouth...
Chris O'Neill
Telecommunications Engineer
"my chances of being raped are mitigated because some men can gain relief from watching film or photographs of people being sexually humiliated or degraded."
Strawman, at least to some degree.
Linus Bowden
management consultant
Well, it's pretty clear that it is the 2nd wave gender feminists who are going to have to face up to the difficult truths about porn and how silly their "violence against women" apocalyptic incantations are. Time to hit the books ladies, and start doing some honest research. Truth can be hard, and in this case, threatening to entrenched institutional interests, especially academic empires. But in the digital world, hive-minds, which buzz more on outdated ideological ranting and propaganda will increasingly be exposed. Hopefully this will force them to lift their game, and do some real scholarly work.
Steve Drummond
Retired (self funded)
There is anecdotal evidence that pornography may be contributing to the extinction of pubic lice.
Of course women now celebrate their femininity by styling their pubic hair. Pressure from the porn industry has promoted the idea that an untamed bush is no longer desirable and likely to elicit a negative response from a new lover.
Lice need their "forest" in order to survive. However, just like the Brazilian Amazon forests, another one seem to be lost forever, thanks to the influence of the porn industry.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
@ Steve D
Did you even stop to think through your post? Rhetorical question.
"Lice need their "forest" in order to survive. However, just like the Brazilian Amazon forests, another one seem to be lost forever, thanks to the influence of the porn industry. "
As we all know only women have pubes and only women spread lice - is that what you're saying here?
:P
Steve, I have a wonderful development opportunity for you, I am sure you have heard of the Sydney Harbour Bridge... well (keep this to yourself) it is up for sale. I'll get back to you with the details. You heard it here first.
Craig Minns
Self-employed
No, he's not saying that only women get lice, Dianna, he's saying that lice cannot be transmitted if one of the potential hosts has no pubes, because they will have no habitat to infest.
I'm sure that as a good environmentalist you'll be busily growing pubes and offering yourself as a breeding colony.
John Coochey
Mr
Craig Minns' may seem tongue in cheek regarding breeding grounds and the necessity of both partners having pubic hair to transfer pubic lice but I am reminded of when a vaccine against the human paploma virus was invented but given only to females. On academic came on to defend this saying girls would no longer be able to transfer it to males so both were protected. An equally valid argument would have been to give it only to males who would then protect females.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
@ Craig Minns
Steve is saying a lot more - through his comments he's indicated how he has watched so much porn than he finds a prepubescent look preferable in a sexual partner; that the "amazon look" repulses him.
He also seems to think that sufficient numbers of women watch porn and, therefore, believe they have to clear the natural normal pubic hair to attract mates, except he called it "celebrating their femininity". WTF. Wouldn't want a man to end up with hairs in his teeth. Also implicit is the idea that women must do everything to please men - this is how porn has effected Steve. Pretty harmless and yet just so disturbing. For so many reasons.
Next he'll claim that anal bleaching is a necessary "celebration of femininity".
Let's hope he doesn't start getting into snuff movies - can't even begin to think what he'll pick up from viewing that.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
@ John Coochey
"The pubic or crab louse (Phthirus pubis) is a parasitic insect that spends its entire life on human hair and feeds exclusively on blood, four to five times daily. Humans are the only known host of this parasite. Pubic lice usually infect a new host only by close contact between individuals, such as when there is sexual contact among adults. Parent to child infestations are more likely to occur through routes of shared towels, clothing, beds or closets. Adults are more frequently…
Read moreJohn Coochey
Mr
Well I always suspected that Diana would know more about pubic lice than I would, it must have taken her some time to type all that in. One small point if a Knowledge documentary is correct, the pubic lice originated on apes but passed to humans by routs we can only surmise, perhaps Diana has some information on this aspect also?
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
@ Judith Olney
"In my opinion, I think that the prevalence of pornography in our society is responsible for the disconnection of love and intimacy, from the sexual act."
There is nothing intimate, sensual or caring about pneumatic breasts, completely hairless skin, slicked with lotions, faked desire, prepped males whose only goal is to come over the siliconed lips of a botoxed beauty.
If anyone complains, we told to to keep our heads down (sweetie) we are ruining all the fun. That there are heavily vested interests in maintaining the illusion that this 'entertainment' is all about freedom. The defensive replies from the easily outraged - like toddlers denied an ice-cream.
Do they care? Apparently not. Sex sells. Sex is for winners. Winners are not tender, gentle or intimate, winners stand tall on podiums - if we can't handle it better stay out of the boudoir. Lover free zone.
No wonder women turn off.
Judith Olney
Ms
Hi Dianna, I think there are quite a few men that also reject the porn industry's view of sex, as well.
The peer pressure for men to accept porn as normal, and the loveless, mechanical sex act as something to aspire to, is even greater than it is for women. The porn industry is so pervasive in our society, and the views so accepted as normal, if a person rejects this view they are often seen as weird, prudish, etc. I wonder how many people really want to be humiliated, degraded, objectified, abused…
Read moreChris O'Neill
Telecommunications Engineer
"its against their interest"
An industry that has an interest in increasing the size of its business.
Nothing unusual there.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
I thank all the men and women of goodwill who have contributed thoughtful reflection on this difficult topic.
I acknowledge porn is here to stay. Hopefully we can aspire to something that better expresses relationships between men and women rather than the outmoded model of active to passive, dominant to submissive and emerge with something that entertains as it respects. For all.
Best wishes of the season.
Comment removed by moderator.
Geoff Taylor
Consultant
There is also the business and money side to factor into this discussion.
See eg.
http://worldcrunch.com/business-finance/youporn-founder-jailed-a-german-geek-039-s-fast-track-to-dominating-internet-pornography/thylmann-youporn-porn-internet-manwin-entrepreneur/c2s10387/#.UNfo06NhiSN
Pera Lozac
Heat management assistant
Another study that deals with mere effects and the causes of the problem. Porn is just a reaction to double-faced, sexually repressed society that we live in today. Western capitalism is morally troubled, religiously confused and painfully stretched between the ideals of sexual freedoms and Christian sanitisation of sex. Porn industry is fulfilling the repressed desires of humanity and the more repression and confusion we have the more extreme porn industry will become. The only way out is facing…
Read moreStuart Smith
logged in via Facebook
Hi Pera. Could you unpack your theory a bit more and substantiate your propositions? Primarily I would like you to explain for us the following:
Read more1. At what point did capitalism (as an economic theory) take on a moral dimension or has morality been imposed on it?
2. When did western society become religiously confused and what do you define as “religious confusion”?
3. You speak of “repressed desires”. Given the history of humanity (let’s stick with the Western version of that) at what point…
Pera Lozac
Heat management assistant
Too many questions but lets try to answer at least one
Freedom is a word. What it implies is a unique state of conciousness where a conscious entity recognises itself as an inseparable part within a unity of all other concious entities. Through that state of conciousness a free will can act without imposing or negating the same right to others. In other words a person that walks and does what ever he "likes" is not a free person - he most likely delusional and probably not quite sure about what…
Read moreStuart Smith
logged in via Facebook
Yes you have, but in a scary way. I have encountered that reasoning presented in very much the same way in a particular sub-cultural group: paedophiles [and let’s include hebephilia and ephebophilia]. What’s their line? Awakening the child [self-realisation]; and awakening their inner-child [adult self-realisation]. They see their sexuality as an expression of their free will and a natural expression of the love of, and for, children. In the same way as you have presented they resent the imposition of external morality and ethics they do not consent to as a limitation on their freedom [and the “freedom” the child to explore their sexuality], a limitation on what they consider “natural”.
Pera Lozac
Heat management assistant
I really do not understand how did you draw that conclusion out my words. Maybe read them again without trying to project your own traumatic or any other experience on them. Paedophiles do not value the free will of their victims - they, largely in a similar way as you did with mu words, project their will and label is the child's will in a fruitless attempt to justify their own predatory behaviour. It is also a very symptomatic that this sub-cultural group, as you called them, is very easy to identify among the Christian clergy of all denominations (Catholics being most likely the worst offenders since celibacy perverts their behaviour a notch higher then in others). Maybe you should think why is that the case? A similar behaviour is recognised among rapists - the famous last words "she asked for it".
Clifford Chapman
Retired English Teacher
Pera Lozac
I very much agree with your comment here and found the interpretation to what you originally said, when I read it, very strange indeed.
As a matter of fact, on another thread, and others in the past, I have raised the issue of how religion, far from holding us responsible, 'allows' us to opt out of responsibility for our actions, in that a poultice is applied that attempts to 'kiss it all better',
We need to face ourselves and our actions, if morality and ethics are going to mean anything on Earth. All that these isms do, is allow us to cloak what we do in a spurious meaning, often one that is quite sickening when called to account.
Chris O'Neill
Telecommunications Engineer
"Catholics being most likely the worst offenders since celibacy perverts their behaviour a notch higher then in others"
This is a bit of a tangent but when Catholic priest pedophilia became publicised, I thought this was a supreme piece of irony considering that Catholic priests were supposed to be celibate so that it wasn't embarrassing for them for people to think that they might have had sex with their wife the night before giving a church service.
People had such utterly bizarre attitudes in the past (still do).
Pera Lozac
Heat management assistant
No my friend - what is truly sickening and bizarre is when people who were suppose to stand behind the words that they are preaching are instead the worst offenders of their own preaching. On top of that through their lobby groups and religiously oriented politicians they are creating laws that are reflecting their double-faced puritanic values and shaping society that is limiting human tolerance, understanding and learning. On the other hand they are promoting xenophobia, religious hatred, intolerance and obstruction of basic human rights.
Why would anyone then follow and support moral and ethics depicted by Semitic religions (judaism, christianity and islam) or any other organised religion for that matter.
Chris O'Neill
Telecommunications Engineer
"what is truly sickening and bizarre is when people who were suppose to stand behind the words that they are preaching are instead the worst offenders of their own preaching."
I agree. I believe I gave an example of that.
Stuart Smith
logged in via Facebook
Firstly, I have no traumatic experience to project. My post was not an attempt to impose anything on what you posted. What I am drawing from is contemporary knowledge. As I said, the same reasoning/philosophy you are promoting [concerning freedom] is advocated by paedophile advocacy groups [let’s call them PAGs]. I will also include in the PAG category those who practice hebephilia and ephebophilia. The rhetoric you use features very prominently in their propaganda. Here are some examples based…
Read morePera Lozac
Heat management assistant
I can only tell you that you DID NOT understand what I was trying to say and again you are taking my words and putting them in a different context, with which, based on your essay above, you are worryingly obsessed. I cannot stop you from doing that but I can let you "win" your imagined intellectual battle and leave you in peace (hopefully).
Have a nice day.