After a fortnight of talks, The Durban Climate Change Conference has ended with an agreement that a treaty should be developed in the next three years that – starting from 2020 – would bind countries to lowering greenhouse emissions.
Responses will be added below.
Dr Russ Sinclair, Visiting Research Fellow, Ecology Evolution and Landscape Science, University of Adelaide
As far as I can tell, the agreement at Durban was not much more than an agreement to work towards an agreement, and the time scale mentioned was very worrying. I understand that to find any sort of agreement among such a wide range of countries, with such diverse special interests, is a mammoth diplomatic task, and to get any unanimous agreement must be seen as a good step forward, and an indication that the governments of the world are beginning to realise the seriousness of the problem. I hope that it will lead to accelerating real action. I believe that the situation is much more serious than the world economic turmoil which is getting far more press coverage. Time is really running out, and the indicators from the modelling experts continue to show that the chances of averting very serious climatic changes over the next few decades get get less by the month.
Brad Jessup, Teaching Fellow and PhD scholar, Centre for Climate Law and Policy, Australian National University, and Visiting Scholar at the Center for Law, Energy and Environment, UC Berkeley
The path agreed upon at Durban is much the same as the path the world has been heading at least since Bali. We have known that the successor to the Kyoto protocol will be an ‘all-in’ agreement, with all nations taking on some responsibility to reduce emissions. Insofar as the nations within the UNFCCC all remain committed to reducing emissions we should be considering the outcome a positive one.
However, not much progress can be seen in the words negotiated at Durban on the important matter of what agreement will be reached about future emissions reductions. Certainly there is no clarity about the obligations that will be imposed on nations with the most advanced economies and those nations with emerging economies in a future agreement. In particular, the world has not agreed on what is fair for developed nations to expect of developing nations and how much responsibility developed nations should take for their past carbon excesses.
But there is clear progress nonetheless. This is particularly evident if you look at the lead protagonists. Australia has forgone its role as the churlish spoiler, despite the fact that it remains steadfastly supportive of the US and entrenched in the Umbrella Group of developed nations who operate as dampeners and delayers of progress.
The passage of the carbon price legislation means that our nation is no longer a frustration to global progress. And we were long a frustration. Durban has showed us that nations like China and India would not be put in the spotlight until countries like Australia committed to reduce its emissions. Compared to past meetings China, by all reports, appears to be have been less steadfast. It was India, whose voice has only started to be significant in negotiations as other polluting nations like Australia came on board, that spoke loudest in the end.
And from the US, you would not even know that the meeting was taking place. Global negotiations on emissions reductions seems to have no traction with the media, with the current to-ings and fro-ings with the Republican nomination and European financial crisis entrenched in the news.
Stephan Lewandowsky, Australian Professorial Fellow, Cognitive Science Laboratories, University of Western Australia
The climate talks in Durban have drawn to a close at around 5AM local time after a marathon all-night session. It is too early to tell what exactly was achieved during these negotiations, although it is clear that the talks were not a complete failure.
Based on preliminary reports, my understanding is that the Kyoto agreement will continue in place, though minus Japan, Russia, New Zealand, and Canada, and that the parties are committed to negotiating a new treaty by 2015. This new treaty is to be put in place by 2020 and it will, for the first time, also include developing countries in legally binding commitments. (There is, however, some ambiguity in the wording of how “legally binding” all this is.) In addition, it appears that future decisions will no longer be based on the scientific advice of the IPCC but instead the process is only to be informed by the science. It remains to be seen whether being “informed” by the science is a meaningful concept.
The bottom-line, then, appears to be that some countries, the EU foremost among them but now fortunately also Australia, will continue to seek cuts to their emissions, whereas the largest emitters (China and the U.S.) will continue to pollute at a growing rate. On balance, it thus appears that no major global emission cuts are on the horizon until a decade from now.
What does this mean?
Let us set aside politics entirely. Let us assume that the leaders who congregated in Durban all had our best interests in mind, and let us just examine the cognitive issues underlying climate change. Politics aside, what kind of thinking drives climate negotiators, and how does this thinking relate to physical reality? Revealingly, at the beginning of the Durban climate talks, U.S. climate negotiator Jonathan Pershing stated that there are “essentially an infinite number of pathways” that allow stronger cuts starting in 2020 to “stay below 2 degrees.” In other words, delay doesn’t matter, we can deal with the problem later.
Pershing’s statement betrays a well known but tragic cognitive failure; namely, the failure to understand accumulation processes. This failure, widely shared among most people who are not intimately familiar with dynamical systems, ignores the fact that to stabilize total CO2 in the atmosphere—which is what is required to arrest further warming — we need to eventually reduce emissions to zero (or nearly so).
This is because CO2 accumulates in the atmosphere in the same way as the water level in a bathtub rises while the tap is on. Absent any leakage, the only way to stabilize the water level is to shut off the tap completely. And the longer we delay before starting to turn the tap, the more rapidly we have to close it — if we delay emission cuts to 2020, then the required cuts are around 9% a year (which means every single year from 2020 on). Those cuts may not be technologically achievable. If we started in 2011, we could achieve the same outcome with cuts of only 3.7%, probably well within technological reach. The apparent failure of climate negotiators to understand the underlying physics is costing all of us dearly.
Collectively, the climate negotiators have been acting like corporate fleet managers who run their cars without oil changes or maintenance, just to improve the bottom line for a year or two. Some twenty years ago, we could have dealt with climate change for the price of an oil change. Ten years ago, the price had gone up and it would have cost us a new engine. Right now, we are in for the cost of a new car. And if we do nothing for another 10 years, our planet may remodel itself with us no longer in the driver’s seat because 9% annual emissions cuts may be unachievable.
There is another cognitive trap into which climate negotiators appear to have fallen which arises from the same fundamental failure to understand the physics and mathematics of accumulation. This cognitive trap involves the inability to recognize historical responsibilities. Because Western countries have been filling the bathtub for far longer than developing countries, more of the water in the tub is ours, rather than China’s or India’s. Not surprisingly, therefore, those countries expect us to start closing the tap before they shut theirs. However, Western commentators and politicians are often seemingly incapable to understand our historical responsibilities, pointing instead to the fact that China is now emitting more than the U.S. Yes, China now emits more than the U.S., but its total accumulation is less than a third of the American responsibility. And because accumulation is what matters, Australia has a greater historical responsibility than 94% of all other countries in the world. So before we even consider politics, the cognitive challenges of climate change present a bleak picture.
Add politics and vested interests and you get the decision to let our children do the cleaning up and suffering at a far greater price than we were willing to pay.
An extended version of this post with supporting graphs and figures can be found at http://www.shapingtomorrowsworld.org.
Mark Harrigan
Dr
Thanks Stephan and Matthew
If I may I'd like to suggest a few ways at looking at this.
1) As the article points out If you consider historical emissions rather than future emissions then we in Australia are responsible for a whole lot more than just the 1.3-1.5% that is frequently quoted - so where does the burden for action lie?
2) Per capita emissions are a pretty good proxy for "CO2 profligacy" - Australia fares pretty poorly on that front - indeed despite China now being the number one absolute…
Read moreMark Harrigan
Dr
Slight modification for consitency "(By the way there is another group of 15 or so called "Yank" who seem to be both one of the significant groups in terms of narrowing the plug hole, the most comfortable and with one of the highest per capita in terms of contributing to plug hole narrowing- but their leaders are apparently deaf blind and stupid and at least half of them deny the water is even there or that there is even a plughole to worry about)."
But I'm sure any reader will get the gist..
Troy Barry
Postgraduate student
"...deaf blind and stupid..." is quite offensive.
Peter Lang
Retired geologist and engineer
Dear academics,
Surely, when you read the extreme alarmist views of people like Andrew Glikson and Mark Harrigan, it should cause you question what you are being told.
Mark Harrigan wrote: “their leaders are apparently deaf blind and stupid”
This type of comment is accepted, endorsed, supported and encouraged by the academics who contribute to ‘The Conversation’. His comments get high positive ratings. My comment wil most likely score negative ratings. Surely such obvious bias that should be a worry for the editors.
Where is your ability to think outside ‘group think’ and avoid ‘herd-mentality’?
Alex Cannara
logged in via Facebook
Interesting how playing the victim works -- "extreme alarmist views of people like..."
Now "deaf, blind & stupid" are so obviously scurrilous & meaningless that no one takes that seriously. But, if you want snarky, snotty, remarks, just look at the 1st lines of posts from folks like Cotton & Sexton.
Man up there, Peter.
Arguments are only won temporarily, as on Fox News, by claiming the "academics" are after you. Paranoia, of course does have some evolutionary value -- you never know…
Read moreTroy Barry
Postgraduate student
You might take the phrase "deaf, blind and stupid" seriously if you or someone you love was hearing or vision-impaired.
Felix MacNeill
Environmental Manager
Peter, the only problem is that anyone can claim they are fighting against groupthink and one possible reason why the majority of people agree on something is that the evidence supports that conclusion, rather than because they are guilty of groupthink.
In the end, it's a meaningless complaint that proves nothing.
Alex Cannara
logged in via Facebook
The remark itself is stupid, blind & tone deaf, Troy. Why gratify its utterer by taking it seriously?
David Arthur
n/a
Gday Mark, while "burden of action" is a useful concept from some perspectives, it is based on the "450 ppm = 2 deg C = OK" fiction; recalling that this only ever was a political target, with no basis in climate science (other than assuming 3 deg C "climate sensitivity").
A more useful guide is drawn from paleoclimatological studies, which tell us that atmospheric CO2 exceeding 350 ppm is a recipe for sea level rise, putting substantial investment in coastal infrastructure (eg Bangladesh, New Orleans, Gold Coast canal estates).
Agreed, there may be a "moral" "burden of action", but what is more pertinent is that this is everybody's problem.
David Arthur
n/a
As discussed on other pages on this website, applying the terms "extreme" and "alarmist" to well-established understandings of climate science invites use of terms such as "deaf, blind and stupid".
There is a substantial discussion between myself and Peter Lang in the comments following Andrew Glikson's "Last chance at Durban? The geological dimension of climate change", which suggests that at least one of us has not learned anything from reading Andrew's article.
These Conversations are best progressed if terms such as "extreme" and "alarmist" are not bandied about.
Mark Harrigan
Dr
Peter Lang, and others, I was careful to refer only to the "leaders" in my notional group when I said "leaders are apparently deaf blind and stupid and at least half of them deny the water is even there or that there is even a plughole to worry about"
If that offends some I apologise. It was a somehwat trenchant comment but does illustrate what I perceived to be the current state of affairs amongst the politcal leasership in some countries (our own leader of the opposition has been know to make some fairly stupid comments on this matter also.
But I am offended by the apparent deafness and blindness and stupidity of many American politcians such as Inhoff, Perry, Romney and Bachmann (to name just a few) with respect to the science of AGW. They are all on record as being deniers.
Dale Bloom
Analyst
And what of the emmision of other substances into the atmosphere that could be creating global warming, such as methane, nitrous oxides and black carbon.
Were they included in the Durban discussions?
In some ways it may be easier and much less costly to reduce the emissions of these substances into the atmosphere than CO2.
Stephan Lewandowsky
Chair of Cognitive Psychology at University of Bristol
Good point, and the answer is I don't know (yet). I don't think we will really fully understand Durban until later in the week.
Mark Harrigan
Dr
That's a great point Dale - there was a really interesting article on this on Scientific American a week or so ago. here's the link if you would like to peruse it
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=other-greenhouse-gases-slide-show
Dale Bloom
Analyst
Hi Mark,
Thanks for that.
Perhaps its some of my training kicking in for once, but some of that training was on the necessity to conserve product, or to eliminate emissions and waste as much as possible, as emissions and waste represent a possible loss of something that could be profitably used.
This is also mentioned in the Scientific America article: “In fact, some of the measures—such as capturing the methane released during oil production—actually save money in addition to the climate.”
So…
Read moreAndrew Glikson
Earth and paleo-climate scientist at Australian National University
IT IS NOT CLEAR TO WHAT EXTENT THE FOLLOWING FACTORS WERE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT IN DURBAN WHEN "PLACING THE CLIMATE ON THE BACKBURNER"?
Accumulation proceeds only so far before enahnced atmospheric GHG levels triggers feedbacks of a magnitude which exceeds that of the original energy rise (radiative forcing) from carbon emissions.
Major amplifying feedbacks include:
It is estimated the opening of the Arctic Ocean, in response to global warming, is in itself resulting in a higher contribution to…
Read moreAlex Cannara
logged in via Facebook
You all may be interested that some places in the US are actually learning from other countries about not wasting emissions of GHGs like methane... http://www.pagreenenergy.org/presentation
But, as in everything, thought is required. So methane produced by dumps that we can't use properly, should just be burned (flared), rather than encouraged via some techniques, such as water injection. Companies using dumps to sell power from methane combustion too often do spiking, which then produces additional GHGs that don'[t burn, such as N2O. N2O is worse than Methane, which is worse than CO2. Then there are the flat-screen manufacturers, emitting unregulated NF3, which is worse than any other known GHG.
So wisdom is always called for.
David Arthur
n/a
Many of these other substances you mention are by-products of combusting fossil fuels.
Eliminate fossil fuel combustion, you put a fair knock in NOx emissions, black carbon emissions, fugitive methane emissions.
David Arthur
n/a
Methane oxidation in fuel cells?
Alex Cannara
logged in via Facebook
I'll simply add what I tell all my fellow scientists & friends, including fellow members of groups like the Sierra Club...
Our problem is reality of human nature, something that Mother Nature
doesn't care about -- we have to care about it.
For example, how many of us watched the two young women who addressed the UN environmental conferences in 1992 and 2011? Only by accident, from a local environmental group did I ever see these. What's said in the videos and what wasn't done afterward, by the…
Read moreAndrew Glikson
Earth and paleo-climate scientist at Australian National University
Alex,
Thank you for your contributions.
Andrew
John C
logged in via email @gmail.com
Thanks Matthew etal for this.
Ive seen many early assessments of the Durban result so far, some supportive, some hoping for more etc.
But at least at this stage we can be grateful that ~190 nations have come together and backed some form of action for the future. For a while there it didnt look great.
And, Durban has established a process to identify ways to increase the stringency of the system. So there are good opportunities to contribute to that and to help secure a better future.
Andrew Glikson
Earth and paleo-climate scientist at Australian National University
Nor is it clear to what extent, if any, has drawdown of atmospheric CO2 been discussed in Durban?
At 392 ppm CO2 and >470 ppm CO2-quivalent (including methane and nitrous oxide) current atmospheric GHG levels are already above the danger limit, where amplifying feedbacks are triggered through the opening of open water surfaces (i.e. the Arctic Ocean), methane release and extensive fires.
CO2 drawdown is considered by Hansen et al. 2008 to aim at atmospheric levels be not higher than 350 ppm CO2…
Read moreAlex Cannara
logged in via Facebook
In brief talk with Hansen last year, it seemed that 350ppm was just a less scary number to present publicly and for policy makers.
The actual number, including other GHG equivalents, must be far smaller, because like a flipping light switch, changes in the Arctic are already self-sustaining.
The Chinese & Russians are well aware of this and have committed plans for the Arctic Ocean & Siberian shores. China & Iceland have apparently signed a contract for a Chinese logistics port to allow direct…
Read moreJohn Phillip
John Phillip is a Friend of The Conversation.
Grumpy Old Man
WOW!!! All those comments and discussions from the past few days have been deleted from this page - I've kept the notification emails if you dont beleive me. What is going on? It seems that opinions contrary to what you folks above are expressing are not permitted? Mark, you advised me to look at some linked material you provided - a process which I am currently undertaking, but it really looks like suppression going on at this page at least. VERY concerning. Cheers Andy
Alex Cannara
logged in via Facebook
Never noticed anything missing since my 1st comment, Andy. This site, not this page, had apparently had problems, however.
And, the admin could do us all a favor by numbering each comment uniquely.
Daryl Deal
retired
Actually, the Durban Conference result is good in one way!
In the real world, the world leaders have now, to the last man, have now officially validated and endorsed all the claims of the IPCC panel reports issued to date!
Warwick Brown
Retired
The comment:-
"ignores the fact that to stabilize total CO2 in the atmosphere—which is what is required to arrest further warming — we need to eventually reduce emissions to zero (or nearly so)."
is a stark point to make but is thrown around in government, as well as academic circles, in each case apparently without recognition of the virtual impossibility of it ever coming to fruition. It highlights the current disconnect between what is happening now in the present reduction attempts and…
Read moreDouglas Cotton
logged in via Facebook
If top experts like this are saying it maybe we should heed their message ...
http://slayingtheskydragon.com/en/blog/178-top-african-scientist-backs-team-debunking-greenhouse-gas-fraud
Mark Harrigan
Dr
Mr Cotton is basing his latest blather on the "work" of Postma who claims that there is no greenhouse effect
As is often the case with these types of “skeptics,” the more extravagant the claim, the more obscure the publishing venue; in this case the host is Principia Scientific International, which according to the website “…was conceived after 22 international climate experts and authors joined forces to write the climate science bestseller, ‘Slaying the Sky Dragon: Death of the Greenhouse Gas Theory.’” Most rational people would stop here. Not Doug
Alex Cannara
logged in via Facebook
Not to worry, Mark, "consider the source" is always worthwhile. And, the source here (Cotton) has yet to investigate the long-term record, and has yet to explain sea rise or ocean acidification.
When we've room on another spacecraft to Mars, let Cotton et all take a trip there and see what the greenhouse effect does for them. Or, cheaper, let them visit the Space Station, but only be allowed to occupy an unheated, shaded capsule. Anyone ready to start a fund? I've got $5.
;]
Douglas Cotton
logged in via Facebook
Look, Dr Harrigan, I too was fooled by the IPCC claim that photons sent back to the surface were absorbed by the surface. The FACT is they are not. The surface merely scatters them back into the atmosphere. Likewise, other GHG molecules also scatter. This is why there are missing lines for CO2 - they are scattered and hardly any go straight through in the same line, so from space, pointing an instrument at a spot on the Earth, next to nothing seems to be coming straight through. Obviously that…
Read moreDavid Arthur
n/a
Gday Doug, in the past you were "fooled by the IPCC claim that photons sent back to the surface were absorbed by the surface"?
So, now you're telling us that when photons get to the earth's surface, photons sent back to the surface from the upper atmosphere behave differently to photons that started their journey to the earth's surface at the sun?
FYI, it's not just the IPCC who think that downwelling photons behave the same as all other photons.
Douglas Cotton
logged in via Facebook
Sea levels like this do you mean? http://www.real-science.com/sea-level-falling-2-5-mmyear-2007
Lesson 1: Ice melts at any temperature above 0 deg.C and land ice melting will flow as water into the oceans.
Lesson 2: There is no "greenhouse effect" because all that "back radiation" does NOT get absorbed by the land surfaces or oceans. The radiation coming out has more energy and fobs it off. Hence mankind can do nothing about sea levels.
See http://earth-climate.com/CaseAgainst.html for the rest of my reply.
Douglas Cotton
logged in via Facebook
Except the "source" is the science of Physics - the same stuff Einstein taught. Is he a good enough source? And numerous professors of physics throughout the world are starting to realise the flat disc world assumed by the modellers aint quite the real world.
And that the surface of the real world does not absorb back radiation.
I really don't have time to write it all out again for you - just read
http://earth-climate.com/caseagainst.html
Mark Harrigan
Dr
The only accurate word above tro describe Mr Cottons postion is "fooled" - except that it is amazingly self-induced
I had thought his posts before this deserved some ridicule
Now I am speechless with ;aughter
Tastes like fruit and goes crunch to boot.
John C
logged in via email @gmail.com
While people like Doug Cotton go on, and on, consuming some space and lots of time - in the real world, things like this are happening today:
- 'Shock as retreat of Arctic sea ice releases deadly greenhouse gas
Russian research team astonished after finding 'fountains' of methane bubbling to surface'
'Dramatic and unprecedented plumes of methane – a greenhouse gas 20 times more potent than carbon dioxide – have been seen bubbling to the surface of the Arctic Ocean by scientists undertaking…
Read moreDouglas Cotton
logged in via Facebook
"Deadly greenhouse gas" ??? What you breathe out your nose causes the air in front of your face to have about 50,000 ppm carbon dioxide.
The world I live in is not the flat Earth which the IPCC models use - that is, the circular disc (with a quarter the surface area of the planet) which is uniformly lit by the Sun without day or night, summer or winter, wind or weather.
The mathematics in my world says quite clearly that the fourth root of the average of two numbers (not both 1) is not the…
Read moreAlex Cannara
logged in via Facebook
Very right John & Mark. But we have to understand the purpose of the "chaffer". It's much like what a shrink sees when treating passive aggressivity in a patient -- one of the key strategies of such a self-involved aggressor is to with-hold what he/she thinks the others around him/her wants most. It can be respect, sex, or just honest engagement. In this case it appears to be consumption of time and puerile denial of facts.
The chaffing we see from Cotton clearly has no meaning, even to…
Read moreJohn C
logged in via email @gmail.com
Oh Doug.
I have found a way to prevent your repetitive and time wasting comments from appearing on my computer screen.
This will allow me to concentrate more on the real world.
John Vacey
Sciolist
Do you mind sharing John? I'm willing to pay good money....