Hold your hats. Gird your loins. Scrunch up your face like you’ve just witnessed your Dad on the dance floor at a wedding.
Ready? Good, because I’m writing about religion. Even worse, this column is about religion…and children.
But fear not. For my own sanity (and safety!), this column won’t dip its toe into the pool of ethical and moral arguments attached to the teaching of religion to children. This debate has been covered extensively by polemicists from both sides.
Rather, I’d like to try and take a dispassionate look at whether growing up in a religious household conveys advantages or disadvantages in the behavioural and emotional development of children.
So, with hats held and loins girded, let’s see what research is out there.
Research
My interest in this area was piqued by a 2008 article by Bartowski and colleagues, which provided the largest study to date on how religion may influence different aspects of child development.
Data for this study came from one ‘wave’ (burst of data collection) of the Early Childhood Longitudinal Study (ECLS) in the United States. The ECLS is a large study of children from around the US, who were selected so as to be representative of the broader population. The data in this study were collected during the Spring of 2000, and included around 15,000 kindergarten-aged children.
The parents of these children were asked about their own religiosity, including the frequency of their religious attendance, the religious environment in the household, and the religious attendance ‘homogamy’. (This last one being a rather odd word, which sounds very much like they assessed the abilities of the parents to wrestle and eat a wild pig – but apparently it means how [dis]similar the parents were in their attendance of religious services).
In the same questionnaire, the researchers asked the parents to rate their children on how often they displayed a range of behaviours relating to different aspects of child development. These included self-control, social interaction, internalising problems (anxiety/depressive symptoms) and externalising (attention problems and impulsivity) problems.
The researchers then looked for the relationships between parent religiosity and children’s behaviours. Data on parent religiosity and child development were collected on 10,000 or so of the children, and this was the final sample under investigation.
Findings
The analyses are many and complex, and I would only recommend reading the Results section of the paper, if you have nothing better to do (I mean, anything better to do – watching a close-up of Matt Preston from Masterchef slurping crème caramel was more enjoyable than reading the dense matrices of statistics).
Nevertheless, for those with a terrible case of scholarly masochism, Table 12 would probably provide you with your best fix. But for the rest: I’ve done the hard yards for us all, so keep reading.
The results turned out to be a bit of a landslide in favour of more religious parents. Children of religious parents were rated by both parents and teachers as having greater self-control, better interpersonal skills, and less likely to have depressive or impulsivity problems. All of these findings were observed even after taking into account ‘sociodemographic’ variables, such as parental education, family income, and child’s gender.
The one aspect that didn’t come up trumps for religious household, was when there was conflict between parents about religiosity (or ‘heterogamy, of course!). The more that parents argued about religion, the more their children were at risk of internalizing and externalizing problems.
Thinking points
So, this interesting study appears to provide evidence that a religious household may be beneficial for child development. But before we start forming any conclusions (religious householders, put the ‘Rocky’ theme tune on hold), I’d like you take note of this next section.
In that terribly annoying way that researchers tend to look for holes in arguments (Joke: ‘What did the scientist say to the wine maker? Show me the proof.’ Boom boom), I had a closer look at the research design and came up with a few thinking points.
The first issue that came to my mind was whether the questions about parents’ religiosity may in fact be tapping other factors. By asking ‘how often parents attended a worship service’, the researchers may not actually be determining whether a child is taught to believe in an all-seeing, all-knowing God, but rather they may be measuring other factors that come along with religiosity, such as a particular style of parenting, a certain family structure, or a child’s exposure to a tight-knit and supportive community – all of which are highly influential to child development.
Another issue, which the authors fully acknowledge, is that there were no data on which religion parents’ adhered to. This is a critical piece of information. Given the sheer range of religions – and variety of parenting styles these religions promote – I don’t think we would expect a similar relationship across all faiths.
To my mind, combining all religions in the same category makes little more sense than lumping all food together when examining a person’s weight gain. What you eat is just as important as how much you eat.
Conclusions
So, what conclusion can we draw from this study? Is religion good for children?
Certainly, the findings of this study seem to indicate that religion has a positive effect on child development. But, when weighing up the issues that I’ve raised above, I’m led to the conclusion that we still don’t have an answer to this question. (Yes, the fence on which I’m sitting is very sturdy, thank you very much).
For what it’s worth, my own experience is that the explicit teaching of key morals, such as the ‘golden rule’ (do unto others…), is an important ingredient for the development of an emotionally healthy and well-adapted child.
Religion is certainly one way through which children can come to understand about their relationships with people and the broader world.
But it’s not the only way.
I welcome your comments.
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Fred Pribac
logged in via email @internode.on.net
Thank you for this article - it touches on a couple of my own parenting struggles.
What happens when one does not accept the lovely stand-by of teaching kids conforting religious dogma and mythology?
As long as parental behaviour acts as an example to re-inforce teachings, there doesn't seem to be a problem in teaching right from wrong, compassion, justness, social conscience, love towards people, animals and plant etc etc. My experience is that kids seem to intuitively accept messages of good…
Read moreAden Date
Student of Clinical Psychology
"For what it’s worth, my own experience is that the explicit teaching of key morals, such as the ‘golden rule’ (do unto others…), is an important ingredient for the development of an emotionally healthy and well-adapted child."
I think you hit the nail on the head here Andrew - and this is the variable that any study of religiosity should be controlling for. If you hold ethics and values constant, do you still need the bearded fella in the sky?
If we assume not - the study reveals that perhaps secular families aren't sure what values to teach in the vacuum left by the removal of the supernatural. We've spent centuries rewriting and illustrating the word of God in a way comprehensible to five year olds - but no such efforts have been made to make Plato or Aristotle fun for the whole family.
We may want to teach these "Key morals," but try actually throwing that rancid meat to Psychologists and Philosophers and watch what happens.
Dorothy Bishop
logged in via Twitter
Thanks Andrew. Agree with you and commenters that you need to separate the ethics from the supernatural stuff.
But if I've understood the methods right, there's another confound here, surely, which is that the same people, parents, rated both their own religiosity and their children's behaviour. So that could produce a confound. Better if the kids were rated by an independent person.
And of course the final, insuperable, problem is that if parent religiosity and child behaviour are linked it could reflect some third factor - genetic or environmental - that they share, rather than a direct causal link. Adoption studies might be interesting on this topic- I wonder if they've been done?
Michael Shand
Michael Shand is a Friend of The Conversation.
Software Tester
Wait a minute, the parents rated their own religousity and rated their kids behaviour?
this could mean that religous parents are out of touch with the behaviour of their kids
this could mean that religous parents are dishonest about the behaviour of their children
this could mean that religous parents think better of their children than non religous regardless of their behaviour
so long storey short - the study was poorely done and no conclusions can be made?
Dennis Alexander
logged in via LinkedIn
Read carefully please.
"Children of religious parents were rated by both parents AND TEACHERS as having greater self-control, better interpersonal skills, and less likely to have depressive or impulsivity problems." my emphasis.
Whether the teachers were from the same, similar or different religious orientations isn't mentioned. Whether the teachers and children were at "religious schools" was not mentioned.
On the face of it, teachers do constitute an independent and validating rating, but only on the face of it so far.
Sean Lamb
Science Denier
Right wingers are supposed to be considerably higher for left wingers - or at least what passes for left wing in the USA
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/08/opinion/sunday/conservatives-are-happier-and-extremists-are-happiest-of-all.html?_r=1
The author unpacks it by saying this maybe a result of religious people and married people are happier that agnostic and unmarried people.
Since the religious children are presumably the offspring of people who are not only religious but also married.
Hence maybe happy parents have better adjusted children
Tony Linde
Tony Linde is a Friend of The Conversation.
retired
Well, suppose that's one argument in favour of instituting same sex marriage.
Sean Lamb
Science Denier
Marriage is like fairy-gold, steal it and it turns to leaves in your hands.
Lynne Newington
Lynne Newington is a Friend of The Conversation.
Researcher
Mr Turnbull recently stated, "it's all about commitment".
William Bruce
Artist
Commitment to what?
Religion is also about justice...Haven't seen much commitment from him and others in "our" Govts for justice for Julian Assange and others......
The fact that our Govt has not asked the Americans exactly what decent thung they will commit to re Assange is proof they are committed to nothing but perhaps themselves (&USA).....
Lynne Newington
Lynne Newington is a Friend of The Conversation.
Researcher
It was an extraction taken from the Michael Kirby lecture that Mr Turnbull attended and spoke at, look it up to get the full context.
Now, in reference to your first paragraph.. I couldn't agree more... religion is supposed to be about justice, and it relates to more than just Mr Turnbull.
In fact it's more the spirituality that defies the letter of the law.. of religion, and we've all been privy to that with Mr Abbott proclaiming his Catholicism where one would expect to see the fruit of.
His silence has been deafening in relation to the suffering of his brothers and sisters in Christ at the hands of not only the clergy, but the legal counsel representing the members of the "estabilshed religion"!.
Bruce Waddell
logged in via LinkedIn
The trouble is it depends on the distance to be travelled. If families fixate of one method of transport there can be trouble. Car families do damage to the planet if that is the only method of transport they encourage. Sometimes we need to swim, float, fly, walk or bicycle to best get from a to b. Socialisation into a clan can damage a child's ability to cope with new situations.
I know this article is about religion and not transport but I hope you get my drift. By all means ensure your children get the meaning of the golden rule but stop short of crippling their minds with guilt and self righeousness. In my experience atheists can just as asuredly do as well.
Sean Lamb
Science Denier
I think the study did not say that atheists could not do as well as religious parents, just that the less religious the parents are, then on average (stress average) the outcomes are worse.
I expect the study did not separate out the fanatically atheistic, but just lumped them in with the indifferent. Which is a shame, as I am sure the results would have been interesting. Possibly the ferociously intensity with which some people are atheist might mirror the commitment of religious parents, so would represent a de facto religious outlook and be similarly linked to average positive outcomes.
terry lockwood
maths teacher
fanatically atheistic - is this oxymoronic? Are there depths of not believing? Or does this mean a proselytising atheist? And if they exist, do they come knocking on your door at inconvenient times? Or is there an overnight TV program from the US of A I have missed?
Tony Linde
Tony Linde is a Friend of The Conversation.
retired
"Children of religious parents were rated by both parents and teachers as having greater self-control, better interpersonal skills, and less likely to have depressive or impulsivity problems."
With the way the world is going now, I do wonder whether it'd be better for kids to be a little more screwed up to cope with adult life!
Dale Bloom
Analyst
"Scrunch up your face like you’ve just witnessed your Dad on the dance floor at a wedding."
I think its great to see Dads dancing at a wedding.
Adrian
logged in via Twitter
It's worth bearing in mind that, this being the USA, there were very few children from non-religious households in the study. I'd like to see a study done among a more balanced sample. Also, although there are plenty of good correlations, the researchers show some bias in the way that they interpret the results and draw conclusions.
Speaking personally, since religion is a lie, I could hardly deceive myself and my child by bringing them up "religiously". Furthermore, the strictness of the somewhat artificial moral code may have some advantages in child development but I am happy to bring my child up freer and somewhat less "well-adjusted" without it. However, I agree that there is a positive side to religion, for example the communal gatherings and more talk about behaviour in the household, and Humanists can look at ways to make these more available to their families.
Lynne Newington
Lynne Newington is a Friend of The Conversation.
Researcher
I have the greatest respect for Humanist's, the IHEU were the only ones with courage enough to bring the Holy See to account before the United Nations for breaches of the Convention on the Rights of the Child: (September 2009).
I'm also all for ethics to be a part of the Australian School Curriculum.
Joel B
Boilermaker
We've come a long way since burning women at the stake as punishment for practising 'witchery'.
We now know that witches are fictional characters.
Surely we can now tell our kids to place 'Gods' in the same fictional-character-category as 'witches'.
Can't we?
Why educated people in 2012 still endeavour to practise religion really beggars belief (pun).
Mister A
Mental Health Advocate
Why? I thought that was pretty obvious, because they believe in God. I have no trouble accepting that. Good on them. Who am I to criticise or judge (the church has a long history of doing that already).
Lynne Newington
Lynne Newington is a Friend of The Conversation.
Researcher
One could hardly imagine the child with a life of subterfuge due to a father, a member with religious connections, (refused a rescript of ligitimation Canon #1139) in church law.
The contradiction being, the institution permits the spurious 'brother/sister' relationships as a semblance of "family", to preserve the priesthood and issues of inheritance rights.
David Moloney
self employed
" ... rather they may be measuring other things that come along with religiosity, such as a particular style of parenting, a certain family structure, or a child’s exposure to a tight-knit and supportive community."
While some might like to measure the extent to which these patterns occur outside of religious households, I would suggest that these things are pretty much constitutive of religiosity. Concrete everyday expressions of - 'incarnation' and validation of - metaphysical aspirations. Hardly exclusive to religion, but expressive I would say of religious cultures, and specific religious strictures.
Thanks for refreshingly uncommon subject and perspectives.
Alan Marshall
Retired
Assuming that religious parents might be more strict in the disciplining of their children, there could be very simple reasons for the findings.
For example, if the child consistently eats a good, healthy, nutritious breakfast, sits down for a wholesome midday or evening meal with family, and has sufficient food intake to ward off metabolic disease like Hypoglycemia, then the child's brain will function much better and result in a balanced personality.
If the child ends the school day with an empty stomach, very low blood glucose level, and arrives home having to defend for him or her self, then expect some pretty agro attitudes from the child.
If the religious basis of the family means the mother or father is at home to get the child a good meal in the evenings and generally be good parents, then this could be the reason for those statistics.
William Bruce
Artist
It ought be illegal to invade the unprotected minds of little children with religion.
Isn't religion an "us & them" thing and/or a "supremacist" thing to some extent?
Morality is the real issue......and it is universal.
Perhaps data assumes.. "programming people" for making "Money" or gaining "Education" is "good".....
I personally would prefer to have a questioning and unfettered mind.
....we need to move ourselves and the planet forward..... the existing political & religious groups are not doing this...........quite the opposite...recently Eg Iraq, Libya, Syria, Financial systems,,,,.....
The way forward is not "believing" it is "not believing" them..... and the power of one.....
Dennis Alexander
logged in via LinkedIn
Sorry, William, morality is not universal. Neither is morality individual, it is social and social implies more than the "power of one", it is the family, the group, the tribe, the community, the village, the society ...
William Bruce
Artist
Sorry, I meant I think morality is virtually universal among "religious teachings/groups" & probably atheists would hold those values too.....
Eg Confucianism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism & so on... they all basically teach the "Do unto others as yourself...
.....by & large, people everywhere know to treat others reasonably decently....and they know what "right & wrong"is.
Byron Smith
PhD candidate in Christian Ethics at University of Edinburgh
There's common ground and plenty of scope for partnership on issues of common consensus, but there are also some pretty startling differences between (and within) religious groups concerning morality.
A Ahmed
Student
@Bruce
All religions do have something in common and that is there is a main icon, or prophet.. Buddha, Jesus, Moses and Mohammad. These people's lives then feature most prominently in the teachings of philosophy of each teaching and devotees then try to live to the same ideals.. very obvious really.
BUT.. you have obviously not studied anything to do with islam, its history and especially the life of Mohammad. like most people and even most muslims that do not know the full picture…
Read moreWilliam Bruce
Artist
Had a quick dip into your link...seems it's basically about Muslims ought be hated due to some Ancient History (True? written by whom?).....Divisive...unjust, prejudice?........
You must know ALL non-muslim peoples have been doing ALL this sort of bad stuff and MORE in the long PAST.....
What about "Christian & Jewish" (& others) torture & all happening these days?
Even if what you refer to is true does it justify us treating ANYONE wrongfully today?
Read more---------------------------
This is an…
A Ahmed
Student
@william
you quote the book of Deuteronomy which is a jewish text which is quoted in the old testament.. specifically called the “old” testament for a reason i would suspect.. what is your understanding of the world "old"? also worth noting that Jesus was crucified for criticising the "old" testament.
As for Islam, the point you missed is that one of the basic pillars or aspirations of Islam is that muslims model their lives based on the Mohammad.. Just like Christian model their lives on Jesus and Buddhist model their lives on Buddha.. does this seems to be a reasonable claim?
now you make the claim that these three men are basically the same.. I suggest that you are totally wrong and maybe before you make such claims you become informed.. that is if you wish to provide a informed opinion.
Chris Booker
Research scientist
another possible weakness is the self-report of parents of their own child's behaviour - if a parent's viewpoint of their children is different between religious vs non-religous parents then this will introduce a confounding factor. Looking at the teacher's ratings is a way to avoid this, and comparing teacher's vs parent's ratings, overall the numbers seem broadly comparable, - suggesting that the above confounding doesn't seem to be happening.
From the coefficients in Tables 2 and 3, however…
Read moreFiona Lake
logged in via Facebook
Amusing to see the lack of tolerance for other people's views, from the comments above. Many are simply nasty and add nothing positive, interesting or useful to the discussion. Anyone who truly believes in 'do unto others' (whether due to religious teaching or not), would also demonstrate a tolerance for a diversity of views, if they are genuinely following this principle. The level of vitriol directed at people who are religious, by some who are not, tends to be a one-way street. And it's curious…
Read moreJoseph Bernard
Director
We are here today as a sum total of all our experiences and lessons good and bad.
If many of us have come from some sort of religious soceity, background or ethics, well that background has help shape us to be who we are and the soceity we live in.
To deny our children insights into these teachings, thoughts and imagination is to deny them an understanding of who we are oursleves, deny them the choice of making descions for themselves.. what makes us parents the self appointed authority?
To those that are the self appointed censors to these teaching.. Do you also deny your children, Santa Clause, Harry Potter, Super Man and movies in general! they are not real and so what purpose do they serve?
You self appointed fun police, please allow our children the right to dream of different possibilities.. Choose the positive lessons from as many different schools of thought as possible.. Make this world a world of increasing possibilities that gives hope of a great new world..
Michael Hay
retired
Yes, Joseph. Allow children to have a childhood; let them investigate all the things and thoughts which they can find. In school, as a formal part of a formal education, the subjects of ethics and morality should become a basic study and, as part of this study, all the different styles of religion can be incorporated.
Should a religious heirarchy wish to instill a specific form of religion as part of a child's education, this should be done outside the classroom. Except, of course, if the religious organization actually runs the school, when it becomes part of their specific curriculum. At that point, parents decide which school their child should attend.
Sandra Kwa
Grad Cert Ethics and Legal Studies, CSU
The story of religion (the Christian one anyway) is far heavier, darker and more sinister than the fantasy of Santa or the tooth fairy. It speaks of sin and guilt, eternal punishment, a god that has the power, and right, to do terrible arbitrary things to teach us unworthy beings harsh lessons. It demands unquestioning faith and obedience. Children will happily accept this view of life, trusting their parents, and are rewarded with the corollary - heaven, forgiveness, love, a way overcoming fear of death, and that cosy feeling of being amongst the chosen ones. But when they grow old enough to question it rationally, they are told that the worst sin of all is to renounce your faith. That is certain hell. Then they are in a bind! Is there a study on what a religious childhood does to people later in life?
A Ahmed
Student
so what about a study about what happens when you teach children that you get 70 virgins if you die as a martyr for your Teaching.
or what about religious studies that teach british children are taught in school that Christains and Jews are pigs http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6337299.stm
There needs to be a line drawn where religious teachings promote hatred of others.. as witnessed this week in london there have been over 14 arrests of people that are all under thirty and all looking to attack society.. this sort of teaching is making it hell on earth..
William Bruce
Artist
Don't fall for BBC/Media propaganda & lies of omission.
Perhaps "the teaching of hatred" is not the problem at all ...
Perhaps it could be bombings and military interventions, ...and theft. ..and meddling & repression in others lands? Perhaps it is this that causes our so called "terrorism" problems? And too many believing propaganda & being tacit.
And, I wonder if Israel Govt (& supporters) treats non Jews in Palestine & other neighbours much better than people treat pigs/animals?
Do you really wonder why we have problems?
....Lies? fraud? Military occupations, bombs, sanctions? ... how necessary?
Selective prosecution is the real problem.
A Ahmed
Student
Bruce.. yes lets blame the wicked west..
do you think you can pin everyone of these on the BBC and the jews
The HISTORY OF ISLAM may hold answers to WHY it is so important for Moslems to build MOSQUES
In 630, Muhammad led 10,000 Muslim soldiers into Mecca and turned the pagans’ most prominent spot, the Ka’aba, into the Masjid al-Haram Mosque.
In 634, Rightly Guided Caliph Umar conquered Syria and turned the Christians’ most prominent spot, the Church of Job, famous for being visited…
Read moreSean Lamb
Science Denier
Sandra,
While I don't agree entirely with your characterisation of Christianity, you are spot on with this:
"The story of religion (the Christian one anyway) is far heavier, darker and more sinister than the fantasy of Santa or the tooth fairy. "
Of course Christianity is dark and sinister, but then so is a visit to an oncologist. What sort of clinician would she/he be if they told you had metastasising cancer, but don't worry your pretty little head about that?
Anyway the study doesn't really make a statement about Christian ethics, any number of confounding factors could play a part. Its only an average conclusion. On average religious people are happier than non-religious people, but there are plenty of very happy non-religious people.
Just as there will be plenty will be plenty of excellent non-religious families, its an association, not a causation.
William Bruce
Artist
Assuming you believe all this "political history" does it justify treating ANYONE wrongfully now?
Lynne Newington
Lynne Newington is a Friend of The Conversation.
Researcher
I was reared within the Salvation Army context, (much indebted to those wonderful women in my generation), who had room for everyone.
It wasn't until I became a Catholic many years later that I learnt among other things, of ant-semitism and the "dreaded Masons", who once a month would visit the orphanage and hold film nights with violet crumble bars, so appreciated by us little girls.
Byron Smith
PhD candidate in Christian Ethics at University of Edinburgh
Sandra, I'm sorry to hear that this was your experience of Christianity. When I look at my own adventures in faith communities, there is not much I recognise in your description.
"It demands unquestioning faith and obedience."
From my parents, teachers, mentors and peers at church, I was very frequently encouraged to question, to doubt, to be curious. This is what lead me to study philosophy (and later theology and now ethics).
"that cosy feeling of being amongst the chosen ones"
There are many words I would use in trying to articulate my life amongst various Christian communities, but "cosy" is not one of them.
Perhaps one of the lessons from this study is that there is great variety amongst families and communities and that these differences do not obviously or straightforwardly fall along lines distinguishing "religious" and "non-religious".
Sandra Kwa
Grad Cert Ethics and Legal Studies, CSU
Hi Byron, nice to see we have the study of ethics in common! As the article was about childhood religion, I thought I'd relate my childhood feelings, and "cosy", as in warm and comfortable, was definitely how I felt, knowing my loved ones and I had a loving friend in Jesus, and a protective father in God, and guidance from the Holy Spirit. What more could a child want? I can fully understand the article's findings that religious children are happier.
But by and by I couldn't bear to be so cosseted…
Read moreByron Smith
PhD candidate in Christian Ethics at University of Edinburgh
Sanda, indeed we do share a passion for reflecting on what makes life worth living. And thanks for sharing a little more of your story and for your good wishes.
I now understand better why "cosy" might be a useful description of childhood memories of faith.
As a father of a toddler, there are all kinds of things that, for the moment, I deliberately shield my daughter from, or at least massively simplify for her sake. Insofar as we as parents have a say, some parts of her existence will indeed…
Read moreJoseph Bernard
Director
@Byron & @Sandra,
re: Starving people and human cruelty
I look to the parables of Jesus and see wisdom that encourages a vision that makes the world a better place with a concept of Love.. As we look out each day into the world through the eyes of the news casts or some movies we see what a world without love looks like. Yes there is human violence, hunger and more.. But most of this will disappear when you look at the good work that is done by charities around the world that are actually…
Read moreMichel Syna Rahme
logged in via email @hotmail.com
The clouds are down – its grey – the shadow of us today, today!
Away, gone is the horizon into the mist with the sailor’s heavy heart
Lost, is the island paradise we share in our dreams? How dire if our good dreams lie!
William Bruce
Artist
"All I got to do is to love you, All I got to do is be happy"....tra la la
George Harrison
Tony Beatton
Happiness Researcher, Academic in School of Economics and Finance at Queensland University of Technology
Andrew, Does engagement in religious activities/practice actually make people happier?
The answer to this research question is consistent with your findings, yes
Economics of Wellbeing researchers have examined this question over the past decade (& psychologist for much longer).
The positive effect of participation in religious activities holds across many populations, Germans, British, and even Australians.
Read moreMy recent study of children from Queensland found that over average children who…
Joseph Bernard
Director
fyi,
In a conversation with a long time scripture teacher, she shared some letters that the children wrote in response to a question she put to them..
"What have you learnt from this class?" ( half hour lesson a week over the year)
I was very surprised at some of the answers and must say impressed.. other than some standard answers, one of the most outstanding letters was from a 10 yo girl, who was always disruptive and the teacher thought was least interested.
In short, this girl wrote how she had learnt that by being nice to people that they are often nice back.. and she had now discovered she was making good friends. She said that her mother was a single parent and by “being nice to Her mom” that she had stopped fighting with the mother, was not getting in trouble at school and even her brother was getting in less trouble..
I think this is a happy outcome and guess everyone else involved in this little girls life also was happier.
Sandra Kwa
Grad Cert Ethics and Legal Studies, CSU
The inference here is so insulting to the VAST majority of parents and teachers who teach children, constantly - not just for half and hour a week - to be nice to other people, without involving religion. If only scripture class was as innocuous as merely reminding children to be nice to other people. But it's not. Unfortunately, religion is much more than just the Golden Rule, and a lot of it is not good.
I know, from my own Christian childhood, the euphoria comes from believing in a fairy story, cocooned with family and friends that shared that belief, fed by warm fuzzy songs, canticles, bible readings, fervent prayer, sermons, rituals, youth camps bathed in the glow of divine Love with a capital L. Yes, I was happy ... so high, the fall was a shock when I woke up and discovered none of it was true. But at the same time, it was a relief too. I no longer had to try and make sense of it all - talk about messing with a child's mind.
Joseph Bernard
Director
Sandra,
I read the little girl's letter and who am i to deny what she wrote? If her discovering that she could attract and keep friends by being nice is "screwing with a child's mind" ? sorry but i do not see that
do you tell children that every movie they watch is not real? do you think that super heros and harry potter is "screwing with a child's mind"?
seriously relax.. let children have an imagination and if these stories provide "warm fuzzy" feelings and security.. then is that a bad thing.. just leave out the bits about Hell and the devil.. there are enough negative, violent images and tv cartoons and games to screw with children's minds as it is
Sandra Kwa
Grad Cert Ethics and Legal Studies, CSU
Always, Joseph. I always tell my daughter Harry Potter is not real when she wakes up with the violent deaths of young Cedric, and Harry's parents, and Sirius Black, on her mind. I allow her all that imagination, good and bad - but comfort her with a firm grasp of reality so her mind won't be screwed like mine was when my parents and church told me hell was real. This is what is taught in scripture, in religion, in the bible. If the little girl you refer to was only taught the nice half of religion, then she got off lightly ... for now ...
William Bruce
Artist
Go Sandra....no substitute for a smart loving Mother...we all need to evolve...
"They fuck you up your Mum and Dad, they may not mean to but they do
They fill you up with the faults they had,
And add some extra, Just for you"
Phillip Larkin - Poet Laureate
Michel Syna Rahme
logged in via email @hotmail.com
Can someone please help me with a question I have on 'ethics', as I'm a little confused? A short answer or perhaps the best link/book with the specific answer would be most appreciated.
“Do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable.”
Anna Halafoff highlighted that "The “need to nurture an appreciation of and respect for social, cultural and religious diversity” has been given prominence within the Melbourne Declaration on Educational Goals for Young…
Read moreGil Hardwick
Anthropologist
There is nothing complex about ethics, Michel. It's simple, with nothing whatever to do with religion as such merely practical, day-to-day living. You can have highly ethical generals, for example, who probably make far more effective and successful military commanders than unethical generals who nobody can trust, but they are both nonetheless charged with killing people.
The first principle in ethics is the Principle of Benificence, which simply exhorts people to do good.
The second principle…
Read moreSandra Kwa
Grad Cert Ethics and Legal Studies, CSU
Michel, re your question: "Is it right, is it ethical, is it morally correct to tolerate ignorance on such a grand scale?" In my studies, ethics has been about maximising happiness in the world (Mill), respecting people and practising universal rules of good conduct (Kant), adopting desirable personal virtues (Aristotle), and abiding by a tacitly-agreed social contract to act for the mutual benefit of society (Hobbes, Rousseau, Rawls). I've not yet seen an ethicist go as far as saying we have an…
Read moreWilliam Bruce
Artist
"...an ethical duty, "out of love", to dissuade people of their theistic beliefs.."
Sandra I think you right....who are we to say what others think IF they wish to & if it causes no harm?....
However..religious groups are political groups...and political Groups are HARMFUL groups...and as you say, "All ......should be scrutinised rationally and logically, and religious doctrine is no exception".
....there is no "us & them".... only decency, respect & kindness for others WITH their foibles &...universal and uniform justice.
William Bruce
Artist
PS I hate the word ethics....Morality is the word!
William Bruce
Artist
"In my studies, ethics has been about maximising happiness in the world".....
The study of ethics is a "political" smokescreen to divert attention from the real issue which is morality.....BECAUSE morality is universal....and we don't want anyone to talk about THAT!! ..Jeez, next thing after this is we might treat others we are "precision" bombing and droning as human beings......
How can there be true happiness anywhere on earth with injustice anywhere......?
Sandra Kwa
Grad Cert Ethics and Legal Studies, CSU
It boils down to semantics, and most sources I've read treat "ethics" and "moral philosophy" as synonymous. I think it would be shame to start talking down the term "ethics" when, in all its good connotations, it is currently a growing field and starting to achieve good (moral) things in many areas, including in schools, where those children of religious parents might even be allowed to question the unquestionable.
Ironically, my Presbyterian school gave me this opportunity to finally free myself of Christian dogma when our 3 Unit English teacher set up an elite philosophy class for us in place of scripture. No wonder the Christian lobby are against Ethics classes in schools!
Joseph Bernard
Director
Sandra,
with all due respect, your experience of the teachings of Jesus are limited to the "Presbyterian" view of the teaching of Jesus and with a whole bunch of the old testament mixed in, which ironically Jesus was crucified for challenging.. and so when you are talking about Christianity.. you should qualify your experience to "Presbyterian view of Christianity" .. because that is what it is..
if you wish to say that the actual teachings of Jesus are sinister.. then i would really like to see a specific example that you find so offensive.. I suspect that what you are suffering from is a personal experience with specific teachers and circumstance rather than the teachings of Jesus..
So before you defame a great person.. namely Jesus.. how about you provide some specific facts rather than some childhood memories of Presbyterian school or church.
William Bruce
Artist
Sandra says "It boils down to semantics, and most sources I've read treat "ethics" and "moral philosophy" as synonymous."
Well NO Sandra....with great respect to you also,... different words have different meanings and the definition of the word "Ethics" includes "A guiding philosophy"...
Now that is political & can mean anything.....even torture & mass murder.
Joseph Bernard
Director
@Bruce,
I agree about the importance of the definition of words.. and this is difficult when the meanings of words are used as political spin to disguise the agenda at hand..
eg. A "Robust" conversation has a totally different meaning in some circles.
words on their own are fragile.. Communications is often difficult and we should expect that ideas need to be taken through a number of iterations it we wish to really expose the "core meaning"
ethics vs Morality .. good discussion topic..
Sandra Kwa
Grad Cert Ethics and Legal Studies, CSU
Joseph, Jesus was my super-hero and his wonderful teachings what kept me hanging in as long as I did. Indeed I STILL admire his most remarkable teachings to turn the other cheek and love your enemies as being a pinnacle of pacifism that even most Christians can't and won't live up to. I have NO problem whatsoever with the good morals he - and lots of philosophers - taught, and have NEVER defamed him as a moralist. BUT, why do you think he died on the cross?
Read moreChristians, not just Presbyterians, all…
Michael Hay
retired
Sandra, thank you. Your education has 'done you proud'. I too was brought up in that odd mixture of Jewish history and brutality fitted neatly into Christ's turning of the cheek and I too have decided, through my own logical process to abandon Judaism and be a true Christian - as in one who follows the philosophy of Christ's teachings. I find that there have been many other teachers and writers who have similar ethics and morals. The best the Catholic and Protestant churches could do would be to ditch Judaism! But where would the power be then? The construction of the Bible as done by Bishop Iraneus in the 4th Century AD was directed at stopping the hoi poloi from thinking outside his parameters. It is high time we grew up and thought for ourselves.
Joseph Bernard
Director
@Michael,
agree.. time to grow up... the world has changed so dramatically even over the last 10 years with the internet that we can hardly keep up..
The old world meant that a new idea could take up to 100 years to become reality for the "common person" .. the statics i have seen recently suggest that that is now more like 5 to 10 years..
in 1960 the catholic church ( and i am no expert here) had made major revisions to it's cannon law which some of the older priests had not even…
Read moreJoseph Bernard
Director
@Sandra,
thank you and i agree about some of the crap that spews out and the harm that it does.. and on the positive, We now live in extraordinary times and the mere fact we can discuss this now is totally amazing as it helps clear the myths..
Read morei know what you mean regarding bible belting Christians and I have been faced with "You are going to Hell"! .. poor baby Jesus would be crying his eyes out..
as for Dying on the Cross and other claims.. Personally, my mind is open and believe…
Sean Lamb
Science Denier
As far as JC and turn the other check, I always got the impression it was a case of do as I say not do as I do.
He seemed to have a particular aversion to trees, he was either cursing them or throwing them into fires. You get the feeling he would be very much in favour of the proposed Gunns pulp mill.
I don't think the five foolish virgins would be his biggest fans either.
A Ahmed
Student
@Sean,
guarentee you will just LOVE Mohammad.. just perfect for you.. He has 72 virgins waiting for you.. just come out and play :)
Byron Smith
PhD candidate in Christian Ethics at University of Edinburgh
Irenaeus was a late 2ndC bishop with relatively little to do with the development of a canonical understanding of the scriptural witness.
William Bruce
Artist
Seems, regarding behaviour and how to live etc, that apart from the supernatural stuff, Confucius said it ALL and it was 1500 years before Christ....
Please tell me if am I wrong?
Didn't Christ travel to the east....I wonder if he got his ideas there?
Gil Hardwick
Anthropologist
Seems that far too often are we confronted with this word 'religion' as some sort of alien object, when all it comes down to is the Latin verb 'religare' = 'to bind'.
Religion is what binds people. In Christianity, what binds people is their shared faith in the efficacy of love and redemption, a positive view of other people as inherently good, a practical idea of forgiveness, a rejection of hatred and retribution in human affairs, and I think overall, in my experience anyway, awe at the sheer…
Read more