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20 July 2012, 1.39pm EST

When courses are free online, what’s left for universities to sell?

When some of the world’s most prestigious universities – including Harvard and MIT in their edX venture or Stanford and Princeton through Coursera – start putting courses online for free, it tells you one thing for sure – whatever they are selling, it is not their course content. Australian universities…

Stzc38k6-1341972595 — Universities sell more than just lectures and lessons. Flickr/Butler University

Australian universities are watching the movement in online open education closely, and with another 15 of the world’s top universities joining the Coursera venture this week many are asking how they can compete. But first, we must ask a fundamental question – what is it that universities are really selling?

Selling points

Though content is clearly important to any higher education course, it is not necessarily distinctive to any particular university. In degrees oriented to particular professions, course content will tend to be similar between institutions – they all teach what is required for professional admission. Similarly, in many disciplines there is established basic knowledge that must be taught.

The detail will vary, but there must be considerable overlap between universities. The long-standing commercial textbook market reflects the fact that core course materials can be shared between institutions, and can also be used by people who are not enrolled in any course.

Online higher education course materials, however, offer more than just the textbook-like reading materials put online. They also have video lectures, sometimes from big-name professors from high-prestige universities. In theory, these videos could replace lecturers in Australian universities, who say much the same thing, but perhaps with less authority and eloquence.

Bare bones teaching

The potential for putting teaching online seems greater in Australia than in the United States, the source of most free online education. Australian academics show a relatively low interest in teaching compared to research. And reflecting university cost pressures, permanent university staff have played a decreasing role as university teachers over the past 20 years.

Casual and temporary staff do much of the teaching in Australian higher education. Universities sometimes contract out teaching altogether. For example, the private higher education provider Navitas delivers Curtin University’s business courses in Sydney.

Casualisation and contracting out of teaching suggest something rather surprising: that though teaching is an essential element of a university, in practice universities are happy to let people with whom they have only a slight employment connection do this work. University teaching is barely a profession in the usual sense of that word, with most academics lacking formal teaching qualifications and student surveys routinely suggesting significant room for teaching improvement.

So although course content and teaching are critical to higher education, they are areas in which there are not only alternatives to university providers, but universities themselves are willing to let others do much of the work.

Certified skills

What universities have not and legally cannot outsource is the awarding of credentials. Qualifications are highly regulated by government. Anyone can organise and teach a body of knowledge, but only organisations that meet detailed government requirements can award qualifications.

It is this credential awarding power that lets universities package up and sell a range of other services to students, some of which they provide themselves, and some of which they can bring in from other organisations.

How safe is this qualifications-awarding power from cheaper competitors overseas? So long as employers recognise government-approved Australian qualifications above all others, this will substantially protect Australian higher education providers from international competition.

The question that nobody can answer yet is whether edX type courses will start to be valued in the labour market. Assessment is becoming more common in free online courses from the United States, but course content developed by Harvard or MIT will not lead to a Harvard or MIT degree.

As for Australian universities, the credential is core to what those two institutions sell students, and they will not give away or even sell such a valuable commodity to all who want to buy. Nor are these universities likely to offer Australia-specific courses, which will limit competition for Australian higher education providers.

Experience just as important

It would also be a mistake to assume that universities are just selling knowledge, and that therefore they are vulnerable to competition from other knowledge providers. Especially for school leavers, university is a social and personal development experience as well as an educational experience.

Happiness studies suggest that work is something of a let-down after an enjoyable few years at university. The social and personal development aspects of higher education are one reason why universities fought hard to be allowed to charge student amenities fees.

In a world where universities have online competitors, non-academic activities are part of their core business.

Employers too might value the on-campus experience. Some international research suggests that most employers rate on-campus degrees above online qualifications. In Australian employer surveys, factors like interpersonal and communication skills rate most highly in choosing which graduates to hire.

Face-to-face teaching and student interaction on campus would seem to be a more promising environment in which to develop these skills. Whether in reality online students are more lacking in interpersonal and communication skills is hard to say, but as with other difficult-to-measure skills employers may use a proxy like on-campus education.

Developments such as edX and Coursera are undoubtedly the big new thing in global higher education. But so far they are as much a complement to what Australian universities offer as an alternative.

While Australian universities have control over the most valuable credentials in the Australian labour market, and while they offer students an attractive broader experience, we can expect their long-term growth to continue.

Articles also by This Author

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14 April 2013 Should universities suffer to pay for school funding?

9 April 2013 Rules and regulation could strangle online learning

6 August 2012 University subsidies: do graduate winners need another prize?

1 September 2011 Power imbalance: why we don’t need more third party regulation

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31 Comments sorted by

Sean Lamb

Science Denier

I dare say when audio cassette language courses were released people thought the market for language tuition would collapse.

Somehow bricks and mortar language courses struggle on.

10 months ago report
Guy Curtis

Senior Lecturer at School of Psychology and Exercise Science, Murdoch University

In an ideal world, because of their undoubted benefit to society, university would be fully government funded and then "selling" anything to anyone would not be among their concerns.

10 months ago report
1. Dale Bloom
  
  Analyst
  
  In reply to Guy Curtis
  
  “Government funded” means taxpayer funded.
  
  The government does not make money out of thin air, and then as an act of kindness, give it to universities. The government gets money from the taxpayer, and then, whether the taxpayer wants it or not, the government gives this money to universities.
  
  Then universities keep much hidden from the public, they actually have few required standards except standards they themselves set, a university student may rarely talk to a lecturer, many students find…
  Read more
  
  “Government funded” means taxpayer funded.
  
  The government does not make money out of thin air, and then as an act of kindness, give it to universities. The government gets money from the taxpayer, and then, whether the taxpayer wants it or not, the government gives this money to universities.
  
  Then universities keep much hidden from the public, they actually have few required standards except standards they themselves set, a university student may rarely talk to a lecturer, many students find the education quality to be unsatisfactory while at the same time universities have spent enormous amounts on buildings, up to 30% of students can drop out in their 1st year, universities often have huge administration staff but few actual teachers, most of what is purchased by a university is imported from another country, a university lecturer will rarely say anything positive about the male gender that supplies most of the funding to universities, and universities have become so feminist there is not the slightest reliability with social science, and many other areas of science in universities are gradually losing their reliability also.
  
  So from that perspective, Australian universities do not have much at all to offer.
  
  10 months ago report
2. Melissa Bruton
  
  PhD - Landscape Ecology/Ecophysiology
  
  In reply to Dale Bloom
  
  "Then universities keep much hidden from the public"... this is very often not the choice of the university/academic but an unavoidable consequence of limited and highly competitive research funding and the commercial publication process. Open access publishing starts at around $2000, up to about $7000 PER PAPER and unfortunately this is simply not a feasible cost for most studies. This is a copyright and funding issue, not a university choice. In my experience, most academic staff want to publish…
  Read more
  
  "Then universities keep much hidden from the public"... this is very often not the choice of the university/academic but an unavoidable consequence of limited and highly competitive research funding and the commercial publication process. Open access publishing starts at around $2000, up to about $7000 PER PAPER and unfortunately this is simply not a feasible cost for most studies. This is a copyright and funding issue, not a university choice. In my experience, most academic staff want to publish research open access but cannot do it.
  Also bear in mind that universities are not just teaching facilities but also research facilities, hence the need for administrative staff to support research staff as well as co-ordinate and implement student courses.
  I am not sure what is meant by the 'male gender' and 'feminist' comments or 'reliability' but relating back to the credibility issue: research and courses from Australian universities is well respected worldwide, as are the universities themselves.
  
  10 months ago report
3. Dale Bloom
  
  Analyst
  
  In reply to Melissa Bruton
  
  Free university lectures have been available for some years on the internet. A student can see a typical lecture from Berkley, Harvard, MIT, Yale etc.
  
  http://www.academicearth.org/universities/
  
  It is similar to try before buying, and comparing that to Australian universities, they are far behind. In Australia, the universities seem to rely more on hype, advertising campaigns and portrayed image, rather than actual quality of teaching and education.
  
  Australia universities are now so PC there…
  Read more
  
  Free university lectures have been available for some years on the internet. A student can see a typical lecture from Berkley, Harvard, MIT, Yale etc.
  
  http://www.academicearth.org/universities/
  
  It is similar to try before buying, and comparing that to Australian universities, they are far behind. In Australia, the universities seem to rely more on hype, advertising campaigns and portrayed image, rather than actual quality of teaching and education.
  
  Australia universities are now so PC there is always the issue of whether a lecturer is biased or prejudiced, and bases their work on some ideology such as feminist ideology, rather than basing their work on the truth. Universities in Australia could have some of their lectures online (as with the Academic Earth website), and potential students could see just how biased a lecturer is from a university, and know what universities to avoid.
  
  It may be fast approaching the time when teaching will be separated from research at universities, and if a university does not continuously improve its teaching, it will be left behind (as students will simply go elsewhere), and the university will have to survive on its research alone.
  
  If it is surviving on its research, that research will have to be of direct benefit to the taxpayer or public, and not simply research that goes into some dusty journal that sits on a dusty shelf.
  
  10 months ago report
4. Guy Curtis
  
  Senior Lecturer at School of Psychology and Exercise Science, Murdoch University
  
  In reply to Dale Bloom
  
  “Government funded” means taxpayer funded. - Correct. For these funds taxpayers get a supply of doctors, nurses, teachers, and other vital social-service professions. Business, with their company taxes, get a supply of qualified and more productive employees. On average these university-trained professions earn more money and thus pay higher taxes to government over their lifetime. Economic modelling constantly shows that the return to governments of money invested into universities is returned to…
  Read more
  
  “Government funded” means taxpayer funded. - Correct. For these funds taxpayers get a supply of doctors, nurses, teachers, and other vital social-service professions. Business, with their company taxes, get a supply of qualified and more productive employees. On average these university-trained professions earn more money and thus pay higher taxes to government over their lifetime. Economic modelling constantly shows that the return to governments of money invested into universities is returned to it and then some.
  
  I'm not sure where you get the idea that universities don't have standard. Universities Australia recently figured out that each university must return 32 annual reports to the relevant federal department on matters related to their operation and quality. The quality agency TEQSA audits course quality - even for those causes already audited by professional accreditation agencies - a course I teaching on will be audited by both TEQSA and the Australian Psychology Accreditation Counsel next month.
  
  Universities have been spending money on building lately because: (a) got money from government specifically earmarked for buildings and (b) classrooms are overcrowded with expanding student numbers (at one university I taught at we had to run 3 lectures a week for a class of 800 because the biggest lecture theater on could only fit 300) and (c) lack of research/office space.
  
  Working at 3 universities (and studying at 3 too) I've come across 2 academics among hundreds I've known who seem more intent on pushing their beliefs (not feminist beliefs either when it comes to specifics) than on good teaching and research - a very small minority that is not worth stereotyping the rest of us over. I personally have clear political beliefs that I keep well out of the classroom because I'm not a politics academic, the rest of my colleagues are equally sensible.
  
  10 months ago report
5. Dale Bloom
  
  Analyst
  
  In reply to Guy Curtis
  
  Terms such as “government spending” and “government funding” are widely used by academics I have noted, but they should be saying “taxpayer spending” and “taxpayer funding”.
  
  I have seen a testimonial apparently written by a student saying, “I came to … Uni with unclear ideas of what to expect, learn and accomplish.”
  
  There is a national HECS debt, and education is becoming one of the most expensive costs to an individual person (or their parents). Student drop out, and students beginning a course…
  Read more
  
  Terms such as “government spending” and “government funding” are widely used by academics I have noted, but they should be saying “taxpayer spending” and “taxpayer funding”.
  
  I have seen a testimonial apparently written by a student saying, “I came to … Uni with unclear ideas of what to expect, learn and accomplish.”
  
  There is a national HECS debt, and education is becoming one of the most expensive costs to an individual person (or their parents). Student drop out, and students beginning a course and then changing to another course is a considerable cost for everyone, and for people to enrol in a course with “unclear ideas of what to expect” is past history, or should be.
  
  So how about universities putting onto the web, a video of at least their introductory lecture to a subject, and let the public see the lecturer, and see how objective and thorough they are, and gauge their expertise as a teacher.
  
  Try before you buy is standard for many things now, except for universities, where it is enroll, pay fees, buy books and then we will let you attend a lecture, and if you don't like it, that is your problem.
  
  10 months ago report
6. Guy Curtis
  
  Senior Lecturer at School of Psychology and Exercise Science, Murdoch University
  
  In reply to Dale Bloom
  
  Dale, I'm not sure why you are unaware of how much information there is out there about university for students before they enroll but let me list some of the things. First, all universities have open days - usual some weeks before school students make their course preference decisions in year 12 - these Open days typically have a range of free public lectures - I've given one once. Second, all universities have regular publicized free public lectures. Third, go to most Australian university website…
  Read more
  
  Dale, I'm not sure why you are unaware of how much information there is out there about university for students before they enroll but let me list some of the things. First, all universities have open days - usual some weeks before school students make their course preference decisions in year 12 - these Open days typically have a range of free public lectures - I've given one once. Second, all universities have regular publicized free public lectures. Third, go to most Australian university website and you'll also find video interviews with some staff or students. Fourth, there are various "careers" expos and other things at which universities present. Fourth, there's the good universities guide (I used it when selecting my first degree). Fifth, there's the new MyUniversity website. Sixth, there's international rankings. Seventh, various sources publish results from things like the Course Experience Questionnaire. Eighth, lists of national award-winning university teachers are available on the olt.gov.au site, you can see what they won their awards for, what unis they are at, and what disciplines they teach in. I could go on and on, but the short version is that the kind of information you think students should have before enrollment is there for anyone with the motivation to look for it.
  
  Not enough for you? You seem worried that students will turn up, be disappointed with the standard of lecturing and then be encumbered with a HECS debt. Not to worry. There's a thing called the HECS census date that you should know about. The HECS census date is the point in the semester where if you are still enrolled in a unit/subject you have to pay for it and it is usually 3-4 weeks into each semester. So, not just in theory but in practice students can do exactly what you suggest, they can come not only to one but to the first 3-4 weeks of classes and if they don't like it, they don't think what is expected of them is clear, or any of that they can withdraw from the units without accruing one cent of debt. To be even blunter, you're arguing for a system that exists!
  
  "Try before you buy is standard for many things now". Not for everything. Parents don't get to send their kids to a school for a few classes to see if they like it. You can't try out a vaccine and then decide to pay if you're happy with the protection from disease it affords. You can't ask the bottle shop to crack open a Seppelt 100-year-old port to see if it might be to your liking. You can get a lot of information about the school or the vaccine or the top-shelf booze or the university before you buy, but trying in advance isn't always possible for all "products". And, as I said, in any case students can have three weeks of trying without buying.
  
  By the way, I wouldn't put much sway in one testimonial. As a scientist, an anecdote is never a good substitute for data. Surveys like the Course Experience Questionnaire indicate majority student satisfaction with their courses. Additionally, if the national HECS debt troubles you so much wouldn't this be an argument for fully-funded universities that don't have to "sell" degrees - my point to begin with that you seem to disagree with.
  
  While I'm writing I'll make one more point. Some time ago I read a book that was based on a series of lectures and recently I turned a lecture I had written into a chapter for a forth-coming book. Lectures make good book chapters in that they are discussions of a discrete topic with an introduction/outline and a summary/conclusion (at least if you do them right, which most academics do). With this is mind, I'd be very wary about allowing my lecturers to be published or broadcast willy-nilly because it is giving away my intellectual property in a way I'd have little control over. If universities do everything but provide a free video of the first lecture of a class they have good reason.
  
  10 months ago report
7. Dale Bloom
  
  Analyst
  
  In reply to Guy Curtis
  
  Guy, I don’t pay much attention to testimonials either, because testimonial can be highly selective, and state positive things only about a course. But when a student who enrolls in a course and says they have no idea what to expect in the course, it is cause for concern.
  
  Costs of student attrition at universities (estimated to cost $1.4 billion per year) seems of little consequence to universities and is rarely mentioned, but without proper preparation of students, that cost is likely to continue…
  Read more
  
  Guy, I don’t pay much attention to testimonials either, because testimonial can be highly selective, and state positive things only about a course. But when a student who enrolls in a course and says they have no idea what to expect in the course, it is cause for concern.
  
  Costs of student attrition at universities (estimated to cost $1.4 billion per year) seems of little consequence to universities and is rarely mentioned, but without proper preparation of students, that cost is likely to continue, and much of that cost has to be paid by the taxpayer.
  
  http://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher-education/high-university-drop-out-rates-cost-14bn/story-e6frgcjx-1225940860074
  
  Open free days are mainly for students who live nearby, and for rural students it can represent considerable expense to attend those free days. That expense includes costs of travel and also costs of accommodation.
  
  Learning by computer can actually involve different skills to learning from a book or from a lecture. I can remember doing a “how to study” course many years ago before enrolling in a university course, although only a few students did that course. Such courses are essential for students if they will be learning via distance education or learning online.
  
  Intellectual property does not necessarily belong to an individual if the taxpayer is paying the wages of that individual, and intellectual property does not mean much to some of the top universities in the world, who have placed every lecture in a course on the internet.
  
  This is an example of every lecture in a course on biology from Berkley.
  
  http://www.academicearth.org/subjects/biology
  
  Australian universities will not be able to compete with other universities while only using testimonials, highly expensive open free days, and glossy advertising campaigns that show very little of what is actually involved in a course.
  
  When Australian universities can no longer compete, Australian universities should not expect the Australian taxpayer to prop them up and keep them alive.
  
  10 months ago report
8. Guy Curtis
  
  Senior Lecturer at School of Psychology and Exercise Science, Murdoch University
  
  In reply to Dale Bloom
  
  Universities do pay a lot of attention to retention and attrition because of their reliance on income from fees. Universities I have worked at have introduced all sorts of initiatives to help and retain students who struggle to adjust to study. In a couple of places I've taught students start in general arts or science courses where psychology is one of the subjects they may chose at 1st year and may major in later. In those universities, and I'm sure others are similar, we did what we could to make…
  Read more
  
  Universities do pay a lot of attention to retention and attrition because of their reliance on income from fees. Universities I have worked at have introduced all sorts of initiatives to help and retain students who struggle to adjust to study. In a couple of places I've taught students start in general arts or science courses where psychology is one of the subjects they may chose at 1st year and may major in later. In those universities, and I'm sure others are similar, we did what we could to make 1st-year psychology subjects as good as possible so that when students chose their major they'd be positively inclined to choose psychology. So, we were aiming not only for retention, but we were raining and maintaining standards in competition with other schools within the same university who were dong the same. Since the Bradley review government is more and more linking funding to retention and completion.
  
  Universities also pay attention to negative testimonials and try to address the problems they highlight. Like most organizations, universities have a culture of continual improvement.
  
  Proper preparation for university should be the job of schools. Inadequate government funding and reliance on student income means that universities take many weaker school students to make ends meet only to find that many of them can't meet the standards expected of university students. Poor government funding of public schools compounds the problem. Universities have in place all sort of preparation courses, bridging courses, study-skills centres, and the like.
  
  You may be right that Open days mostly attract students in the local area. It may or may not surprise you to learn that unlike the US and UK Australia have a culture where most students actually study at their nearest campus. Because of this, open days do actually target the biggest potential group of likely future students. It seems like you want to just debate every point, but I will note that I gave you 8 or 9 different ways in which students can get a rounded picture of university study before they pay for a course of which you've only noted potential draw backs with one.
  
  If you further investigate the intellectual property issue you'll find that the University of Western Australia recently lost a court case trying to claim one of their employee's IP as their own. Moreover, you'll find that if an academic writes a paper or book they have sole rights to the assignment of copyright. You say that IP may not belong to the individual if the taxpayer is paying the wages of the individual, which, if you're right, means that taxpayers, at best own 40% of academic's IP because that's roughly the current contribution of taxpayer funding to universities in Australia. Perhaps we could put 40% of lecture on-line to follow your logic.
  
  10 months ago report
9. Dale Bloom
  
  Analyst
  
  In reply to Guy Curtis
  
  Guy, online education could significantly reduce education expenses for students such as rural students, depending on how it is carried out. Learning from a computer screen has both disadvantages and advantages to learning from a book, or learning from a teacher in a classroom. I learnt that when formatting information on screens for SCADA systems.
  
  There are a variety of techniques that have to be used to effectively format information on a computer screen.
  
  I can also tell in 2 seconds if…
  Read more
  
  Guy, online education could significantly reduce education expenses for students such as rural students, depending on how it is carried out. Learning from a computer screen has both disadvantages and advantages to learning from a book, or learning from a teacher in a classroom. I learnt that when formatting information on screens for SCADA systems.
  
  There are a variety of techniques that have to be used to effectively format information on a computer screen.
  
  I can also tell in 2 seconds if someone is learning much from a computer screen, or I can walk past a group of people reading information from a computer screen, and know which ones will remember information, and which ones will forget the information in one hour/day/week.
  
  However, I will keep all that a secret, and not share that information with anyone from a university, because of IP reasons, and because universities seldom purchase anything from Australia, they also employ feminists, they depend too much on hype and glossy pamphlets to advertise their courses etc.
  
  10 months ago report
Dirk Baltzly

A/Prof. in Philosophy

Coincidentally the NYTimes ran some interesting reflections about on-line course content yesterday.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/20/opinion/the-trouble-with-online-education.html?_r=1&ref=opinion
The author makes the point (which is obvious to anyone who has done some teaching) that even in a large lecture theatre a good lecturer is one who adjusts the pace and focus of what is being presented to the needs of his or her audience 'on the fly'. Sometimes you do this with methods like peer instruction…
Read more

Coincidentally the NYTimes ran some interesting reflections about on-line course content yesterday.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/20/opinion/the-trouble-with-online-education.html?_r=1&ref=opinion
The author makes the point (which is obvious to anyone who has done some teaching) that even in a large lecture theatre a good lecturer is one who adjusts the pace and focus of what is being presented to the needs of his or her audience 'on the fly'. Sometimes you do this with methods like peer instruction. Other times you just read your audience -- registering puzzlement, boredom with the obvious, interest in what you initially intended as a mere aside.

Podcasts and on-line lectures by famous philosophy professors are things I'm happy to include among the resources I use in my classes. But I am the one who is there with the students and only I can respond to the feedback they are giving me. Learning is not a process in which you open the top of people's skulls and pour in the information. It arises when people who are skilled in creating a environment for inquiry help students to a) see for themselves the various reasons for and against a conclusion and b) equip them with the skills to weigh those reasons in the balance so that they own the conclusions that they reach.

10 months ago report
Danielle James

retired

Indeed, valid comments have been made.

However, a bad lecturer can see students drop out in droves.

I tutored at university when it was free - ah ...they were the days!

We had students with excellent matric results in science subjects wanting to do law. Unfortunately, many could not write well - in some cases, seemingly at all (writing a paragraph without a full-stop was not uncommon). The university resolved this problem by requiring such students do remedial classes and pass a first…
Read more

Indeed, valid comments have been made.

However, a bad lecturer can see students drop out in droves.

I tutored at university when it was free - ah ...they were the days!

We had students with excellent matric results in science subjects wanting to do law. Unfortunately, many could not write well - in some cases, seemingly at all (writing a paragraph without a full-stop was not uncommon). The university resolved this problem by requiring such students do remedial classes and pass a first-year undergraduate arts subject before entering a law course. Such students were quite resentful; and additional costs to the university. This begs questions about matric results and entry requirements to specific courses ...

In a different circumstance, a tutor in politics was required to pass a student, a definite 'fail'. The head of the department needed a specific number of passing students to retain funding. One wonders if this is the case now.

Online courses, especially those that are free, will benefit many who otherwise would not be able to attend university. This can't be bad for a society.

Understandably, many courses do need a presence and hands on experience at a university. Some students may benefit from combining both
campus attendance and free online courses.

10 months ago report
Eric Huttlestone

Public

I'm not an academic, neither did I have the financial resources to consider a University education. Fortunately FREE higher education is not new.

Bill Gates, Yahoo and similar philanthropists provide excellent learning material at: www.khanacademy.org

It should be noted that very few (2%) teacher's are in fact, good teachers. The Khan academy is able to enlist the best teachers and provide consistent methodology.

This trend of e-education will be the norm in years to come.

The saving in cost to the individual and the community (Planet) in general has the potential of being enormous!
The benefit to impoverished nations is beyond measure!

The greatest burden on society is the lack of education.

The challenge is qualitive delivery.

10 months ago report
1. Danielle James
  
  retired
  
  In reply to Eric Huttlestone
  
  Eric is absolutely correct.
  
  Education should be available to all. Education is a human right.
  
  Many problems in the world are due to ignorance or deliberate disinformation peddled by certain governments.
  
  We have all seen individuals who had the capacity, but not opportunity nor circumstances to do well at university ... and undoubtedly contribute to society. As a society we should not see these people fall through the cracks.
  
  Many who enrol for free courses will find they have neither…
  Read more
  
  Eric is absolutely correct.
  
  Education should be available to all. Education is a human right.
  
  Many problems in the world are due to ignorance or deliberate disinformation peddled by certain governments.
  
  We have all seen individuals who had the capacity, but not opportunity nor circumstances to do well at university ... and undoubtedly contribute to society. As a society we should not see these people fall through the cracks.
  
  Many who enrol for free courses will find they have neither the interest nor aptitude to complete the course. Better this way than on campus.
  
  The elitism of university study should be laid to rest.
  
  A friend obtained a PhD for a text teaching Egyptian hieroglyphic 'for the general public'. Although being granted a PhD, she was so mauled in the process she has not revisited her work, indeed, is not even publishing. An Oxford don remarked: "Do we really want all and sundry to know this."
  
  The other aspect of online study is that it frees academics to do research. Lack of time (and of resources) to pursue research was the constant complaint of teaching academics when I was a university. Research in all areas is increasingly important in our world today.
  
  10 months ago report
2. Guy Curtis
  
  Senior Lecturer at School of Psychology and Exercise Science, Murdoch University
  
  In reply to Danielle James
  
  University administrators love the idea that on-line study frees up academics' time to do research. However, to do on-line education anywhere approaching the quality of face-to-face the time involved is very similar.
  
  10 months ago report
3. Eric Huttlestone
  
  Public
  
  In reply to Guy Curtis
  
  Precisely my point Guy.
  
  It's not that it's an impossibility but a more viable accreditation process must first be introduced (discovered). It's not beyond us.
  
  With change comes the necessity of new initiative, we're on the right track!
  
  10 months ago report
Bruce Waddell

logged in via LinkedIn

It will be a sad day when universities no longer have the confidence of the general public and employers. That must remain a first focus of them. But take note there are benefits to the university offering free education that may be overlooked in the haste to condemn the practice.
Instead of relying on a student body selected from children hot housed in secondary schools the university offering these courses has opportunities, first to discover exceptional talent, and secondly to discover self motivated students. At any rate I think many universities under rate their real value in training minds. It is my experience that after a few years the discipline studied is of lesser value to employers than study itself. In other words lots of people become masters of areas outside their initial field of study. Qualifications being a start to life's journey and not the end game.

10 months ago report
1. Eric Huttlestone
  
  Public
  
  In reply to Bruce Waddell
  
  I certainly agree Bruce.
  
  The very presence of a good university inspires exceptional achievement and I for one envy those to have been educated in the ambiance of higher learning however, for practical and economic reasons, university education must become more accessible.
  
  The higher quest is to discover otherwise untapped brilliance.
  
  I would suggest universities retain a very credible accreditation process but much of the time should go toward research and development.
  
  10 months ago report
Rob Crowther

Architectural Draftsman

In 2010 I taught myself Calculus.

I obtained the book by Stewart, some notes by Paul Dawkins and stared with MIT lecturers by Jerison. MIT does not use Stewart’s calculus so I had to use my initiative in coordinating reading and lecture viewing.

That was the first half of the book. For the second half of the book I then went on with more Dawkins notes and lectures by Frenkl. In the end I did not worry about the lectures. I had become used to the writing style of Stewart and developed my own…
Read more

In 2010 I taught myself Calculus.

I obtained the book by Stewart, some notes by Paul Dawkins and stared with MIT lecturers by Jerison. MIT does not use Stewart’s calculus so I had to use my initiative in coordinating reading and lecture viewing.

That was the first half of the book. For the second half of the book I then went on with more Dawkins notes and lectures by Frenkl. In the end I did not worry about the lectures. I had become used to the writing style of Stewart and developed my own method of reading, learning, and practice.

By the end I had not only learnt some maths, I had learnt how to read a maths text. It has turned out that this is the important part.

I now have moved on to Advanced Calculus by Kaplan after doing some Linear Algebra and proof writing. Kaplan is tough and some associated lecturers would be nice. The best I get is some YouTube snippets. Sydney Uni has some lecturers but their version of Advanced Calculus does not seem to be as advanced as Kaplan’s – Sydney Uni seems to be more computational.

I watch these developments with interest. I have no interest in a Uni qualification whatsoever. For work, the only maths I require is contained on a 20 function calculator. I have no desire to go further and do Architecture as the numbers indicate only 8% of graduates actually go on to practice Architecture – the rest draft or practice ‘Clerkatecture’. Either way Architecture is practiced as Art and not Science.

So, this maths interest is a hobby and like all hobbies, there is an economic ceiling. In essence that boils down to $1000 for a Uni unit or $1000 for about 9 texts. The Uni method would amuse me for about 13 weeks and the texts method, about 6 years. In reading lecturer’s comments it seems a common lament is it is normal to be able to pass their units without being able to read a maths book.

In looking at a University’s course, they never appear to cover all of the text. I don’t know if that is a problem but I always think the author of the text has written it for a reason. If it is a problem, I wonder if online are going to constrain themselves to a notional 13 week semester or just keep going until it is done properly.

From my own perspective, whatever it is that a University sells, it has not attracted me to specifically buy it although I will selectively use it if it costs no more than my current taxation based payment.

10 months ago report
John Robert Davidson

Retired engineer

Given the growing diversification of educational institutes there is a strong case for externalizing the testing process professional qualifications. There is also a strong case for removing "years of study" requirements for membership of things like the institute of engineers. Such a development provides a mechanism for this country to take advantage of free online courses.

An important part of education are the intangibles. What a tutor/lecturer has to say that has no relevance to the course or passing tests. Arguments about the meaning of life and everything with equally immature students from other faculties and...

Universities need to rethink what they actually have to sell and what people need to prepare them for (and keep them going) in a rapidly changing world.

10 months ago report
Gil Hardwick

Anthropologist

I doubt this trend will take real root among employers, or indeed among colleagues and peers who require practical skills in research quite as much as observation, critical awareness and analytical skills.

NONE of that is to be had from what the old timers around the bush used to call 'book larnin'. Veterinary Science in Australia is a telling example, and I cite it often, pioneered by the great Dr Hugh McLeod Gordon as a sleeves-rolled-up, practical working discipline alongside practical working…
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I doubt this trend will take real root among employers, or indeed among colleagues and peers who require practical skills in research quite as much as observation, critical awareness and analytical skills.

NONE of that is to be had from what the old timers around the bush used to call 'book larnin'. Veterinary Science in Australia is a telling example, and I cite it often, pioneered by the great Dr Hugh McLeod Gordon as a sleeves-rolled-up, practical working discipline alongside practical working farmers, under the admonition, "Telling people what to do will not meet the case . . . you must show them with all due skill."

Yes, I agree, online lectures and coursework materials are no problem, already well-implemented in this country not solely but mixed with other content. Students are not marked for attending lectures or watching online video presentations, no matter how eloquent and prestigeous the guest lecturer, but for their tutorial presentations and their contribution to leading and stimulating informed debate, and for their written work.

My old dean said to me once, many, many years ago, when I was struggling with my assignments as many do in 1st Year, "Mr Hardwick, essay writing IS the academic discipline!"

No student can be disciplined academically by relying on coursework alone, online or elsewhere. I don't want to look at their "years of study" but their ranking, their research and practical work, their insight and ability to contribute meaningfully to critical debate.

Let's keep things in perpsective, shall we?

10 months ago report
Peter Hewson

Citizen

A couple of observations.

Firstly. In the past there was the expression where one might have said that "I read Economics at The University of Sydney". The implication being that a scholar did a fair amount of self-teaching. Just how much knowledge one acquired in this manner I have no idea. Perhaps it was just a pompous statement. Perhaps not.

Secondly. When I can I follow the PBS Newshour programme. They have been running a serious of presentation on the issue of poor education in the US…
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A couple of observations.

Firstly. In the past there was the expression where one might have said that "I read Economics at The University of Sydney". The implication being that a scholar did a fair amount of self-teaching. Just how much knowledge one acquired in this manner I have no idea. Perhaps it was just a pompous statement. Perhaps not.

Secondly. When I can I follow the PBS Newshour programme. They have been running a serious of presentation on the issue of poor education in the US and the lack of kids 'graduating' high school.

What a lot of schools have done is to allow the students to participate in (lightly supervised) screen-based learning. This allows those who grasp a subject easily to move on and those who plod through it to retake the lessons, as required. When they introduced this concept at high school level they has some students completing university-level courses before that mastered some of their high school courses.

This surely may be the hidden benefit of on-line courses: self pacing. It allows for a 'feel good' for achievement but may prevent dropping out because a student is left behind.

Since I "read Economics" in the 1970s I have a feeling that Universities have become far too much like schools (places of teaching) and too little like places of learning. I don't blame the Unis, the pressure on students to 'get on with it' not to mention the need to have many part-time jobs as many students do probably fosters this approach. I appreciate that academics need to protect their turf but in the end on-line learning is no more going to go away than are ebooks.

As for employers: the next generation are young now too.

10 months ago report
Danielle James

retired

Obviously, for many science subjects, including medicine, attendance at a university is essential. Perhaps this would provide opportunities for universitiers to gain reputation in particular specialites.

Another issue that has not been addressed is that of access to primary sources and documents. In depth research in both history and politics requires this - even at undergraduate level. Unless such material is accessible online, archives and connection through/via university are the best research resources available. Unfortunately, we have all seen bias in secondary and tertiary material. To obtain a clear understanding of events, primary material read within context of space and time is essential.

10 months ago report
Craig Edwards

PhD student (completed awaiting examination), casual philosophy lecturer

Personally, I think the 'online course' concept is massively overblow by people who either lack thorough immersion in online culture, or lack familiarity with tertiary education.

The ability for students to track down the lectures of exceptional teachers at top universities can be a great boon for some, and online provision of materials can free up much-needed dollars from admin. But the notion that online lectures will gain significant popularity as the primary basis for a unit is insane…
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Personally, I think the 'online course' concept is massively overblow by people who either lack thorough immersion in online culture, or lack familiarity with tertiary education.

The ability for students to track down the lectures of exceptional teachers at top universities can be a great boon for some, and online provision of materials can free up much-needed dollars from admin. But the notion that online lectures will gain significant popularity as the primary basis for a unit is insane.

Those who think that such courses are the future may do well to check the student comments with regard to courses where such units are offered. The student experience seems to be one of finding such courses to be utterly spirit-crushing. Nobody wants to have to learn a unit by staring at a computer screen in the isolation of their home (or a student computer lab). The offering of course materials online IN ADDITION to on-campus university is popular among students, to the point of being part of the service they expect. But in an education market that is increasingly driven by student choice, few students will prefer education 'products' that confine them to their computer screen.

10 months ago report
1. Craig Edwards
  
  PhD student (completed awaiting examination), casual philosophy lecturer
  
  In reply to Craig Edwards
  
  I should note my comment above is aimed at the variety of overhyped 'online education' news articles that have been appearing with increasing frequency - not the perception of online education by those in the academic community or this site.
  
  10 months ago report
Antony Howe

Retired uni history lecturer

It is disappointing that no one seems to have focused on the statement (accurate I believe) that Aussie universities are not really interested in teaching, but effectively out source it to casuals and temps. This is true, I have been hired on that basis by three universities in Sydney (on and off). Despite being rated in the top 10% of teaching staff in one Faculty, when I applied for a real job there I was not even interviewed. All that counted was publications, teaching quality and the student…
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It is disappointing that no one seems to have focused on the statement (accurate I believe) that Aussie universities are not really interested in teaching, but effectively out source it to casuals and temps. This is true, I have been hired on that basis by three universities in Sydney (on and off). Despite being rated in the top 10% of teaching staff in one Faculty, when I applied for a real job there I was not even interviewed. All that counted was publications, teaching quality and the student experience was of no concern.
The "RED Report" and other articles (such as the "Academic Underclass" by Inez Baranay) also support the assertion in this forum that teaching is - in fact - peripheral to the concerns of the uni managers.
Notably many of the permanent staff are only rewarded (career wise) by the endless writing of articles. I have checked a great many job adverts for lecturers, but these have often not even listed teaching experience as essential!! The "RED Report" (a properly funded and designed study), found that in some Faculties up to 80% of teaching was by non-permanent staff. I have been told of Law courses at Sydney having tutors who are undergraduates! Not even postgrad students! No wonder then that "quality" will suffer.
I was once hired to create and run a new course with two weeks notice! Another "sandstone" uni hired a friend to teach Chinese history, but he had never studied it (his PhD was on 1600s England)!!
The managers are relying on their "brand" name, but it is all a fraud.

10 months ago report
Marcus Barber

logged in via Twitter

I think we need to be careful about this idea that 'research; matters to anyone but those who work in Universities.

I think we need to be careful in thinking that 'credentials' are the sole domain of the University sector, in particular the form of credential.

I work with an awful lot of employers. Most have seen examples of so called 'degree qualified' graduates with poor communication skills and unrealistic expectations of their overall skill sets. A strong (though perhaps not majority) view…
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I think we need to be careful about this idea that 'research; matters to anyone but those who work in Universities.

I think we need to be careful in thinking that 'credentials' are the sole domain of the University sector, in particular the form of credential.

I work with an awful lot of employers. Most have seen examples of so called 'degree qualified' graduates with poor communication skills and unrealistic expectations of their overall skill sets. A strong (though perhaps not majority) view is that people with degrees need to be retaught how to operate in the 'real world' of workplaces.

That thinking ultimately downgrades the perception of a degree and therein the credentialing process. When the credentialing process seems to work for students whose supposed understanding is lacking, that too limits the value of a credential to employers. I think it would be folly for Universities in Australia to rely on their place as Credentialing agencies for their ongoing economic success.

And what Universities ultimately 'sell' is that the degree is a ticket to success and economic happiness, something that is highly questionable.

As to research. So few Universities in Australia seem able to translate their Research into real world applications within the Australian market. Businesses are continuously frustrated by the unrealistic expectations of cost and profit share, the unwillingness of researchers to adapt delivery or message to a different audience and the difficulty workplaces have in gaining access to both research and researcher.

Far easier to just wait until the technology is developed overseas and then license it in. Unless researchers are willing to simplify (not dumb down) their message, and unless Universities take a realistic approach to licensing or commercialisation risks and potential income streams, few businesses care less about research as a value proposition.

What this all leads to is an emerging shift AWAY from a reliance on Universities for new or older graduates and an ongoing willingness to maintain a focus on 'pragmatic' employment assets. Employers ultimately vote with their feet and wallets.

Those in their Ivory towers ought to be careful about staring at the 'Mirror of Erised' lest they see what they want, not what there is

10 months ago report
Bruce Tabor

Research Scientist at CSIRO

Why trouble yourself with all that boring learning - online or otherwise? Why not go straight to the qualification by buying your degree online. At least in one case only "life experience" is required to get a PhD in whatever you want:
http://www.degreeinfo.com/general-distance-learning-discussions/27631-how-buy-ph-d-degree.html
http://www.ehow.com/search.html?s=buy+a+PhD+degree&skin=corporate&t=all
Note: warnings apply!

10 months ago report
Esther Theiler

Postgraduate student

While some on-line learning can be helpful I agree that it is not an adequate substitute for the benefits of an on-campus education. It's not only universities who employ casual and temporary staff. Who do you think work for some of these on-line education companies? And not all provide high-profile academics - the trend in educational philosophy of some of these providers (who have entered into partnership with Victorian universities) is towards employing "facilitators" in learning rather than actual academics.

10 months ago report
Michael Lenehan

retired

Publicly Funded Universities "selling product" on line and trying to work out their best "business model"!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whatever happened to the revolution?

It all sounds a bit "anti-educational" for an old fogey like me who went was a doctoral student way back in the 1970s when you typed up your thesis on 15th century pre-Shakesperian poetry.

How quaint it all was back then.

What was that Sir Thomas Wyatt said?

Whoso List to Hunt

Whoso list to hunt, I know where is an hind,
But…
Read more

Publicly Funded Universities "selling product" on line and trying to work out their best "business model"!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whatever happened to the revolution?

It all sounds a bit "anti-educational" for an old fogey like me who went was a doctoral student way back in the 1970s when you typed up your thesis on 15th century pre-Shakesperian poetry.

How quaint it all was back then.

What was that Sir Thomas Wyatt said?

Whoso List to Hunt

Whoso list to hunt, I know where is an hind,
But as for me, helas! I may no more.
The vain travail hath worried me so sore,
I am of them that furthest come behind.
Yet may I by no means, my worried mind
Draw from the deer; but as she fleeth afore
Fainting I follow. I leave off therefore,
Since in a net I seek to hold the wind.
Who list her hunt, I put him out of doubt,
As well as I, may spend his time in vain;
And graven in diamonds in letters plain
There is written, her fair neck round about,
"Noli me tangere, for Caesar's I am,
And wild to hold, though I seem tame."

In 1811, an Old Fogey was a nickname for an invalid, wounded soldier; derived from the French word fougueux (fierce or fiery).

It now means

fogey
n : (informal) someone whose style is out of fashion [syn: dodo,
fogy, fossil]

A dull old fellow; a person behind the times,
over-conservative, or slow; -- usually preceded by old.
[Written also fogie and fogey.] [Colloq.]

Notorious old bore; regular old fogy. --Thackeray.

Note: The word is said to be connected with the German vogt,
a guard or protector. By others it is regarded as a
diminutive of folk (cf. D. volkje). It is defined by
Jamieson, in his Scottish Dictionary, as ``an invalid
or garrison soldier,'' and is applied to the old
soldiers of the Royal Hospital at Dublin, which is
called the Fogies' Hospital. In the fixed habits of
such persons we see the origin of the present use of
the term. --Sir F. Head.

Do people even still give lectures on etymology anymore?

I wonder. But not for long. This wounded soldier will be going "off line" soon - that place where all retired English Professors go.

And none too soon it would seem.

8 months ago report

Selling points

Bare bones teaching

Certified skills

Experience just as important

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