David Paxton, isn't it the idea of this publication that articles with academic rigour and journalistic flair are evidence-based? So whilst it might have been demonstrated that dingoes COULD have come to Australia say, 40,000 years ago, apparently there is only evidence to show they came much later than that. Making up a story that sort of fits some of the facts does not make it "naturalistic" does it? Or did you mean 'naturistic', as in running around with no clothes (evidence) on?

Hi Peter, was wondering about Laurie Corbetts concept of isolated islands of dingos to protect gene pools

Dr Flemming, your reply is so predictable from one who has and continues to obtain financial reward from the control of wild/dogs dingoes at the Vertebrate Pest Research Unit, NSW Department of Primary Industries. As you are possibly well aware dingoes do not have to eat foxes and cats in great numbers to impact on their behavior, populations and diet. Arian Wallach has shown that just the presence of dingoes is sufficient to change cat behavior and therefore their impact on critical weight mammals.

Your reference to the Allen et al (2012) article is more of the same predictable rhetoric which criticizes the role of the dingo as a top order predator and research supporting the theory (I note that you are listed as the corresponding author for this article, not Ben Allen as you would have readers believe). This is now a well established theory and supported by studies from around the world yet a small group of scientists continue to unjustly criticize this theory. See Johnson & Ritchie (2012).

One day in the not to distant future society will look back at our treatment of dingoes with the same horror as we today look back on the practice of 'bleeding' the sick as therapeutic to the diseased human body. We now 'give' blood to treat disease. In the future we will be preserving dingoes to treat the diseased ecosystem.

Another predictable response from one of the few environmental scientists that fails to accept the growing body of science that supports the importance of the top order predator in maintaining balance in the ecosystem. As you rightly say, this group of skeptics is becoming smaller by the day.

I am sure you are aware of the positive impact of the return of the Grey wolf (Canis lupus) to Yellowstone National Park. Riparian zones recovered as grazing pressure from over abundance elk was reduced due to predation by the grey wolf, and willows, aspen and cottonwoods began to regenerate creating habitat for beaver, moose and many other creatures. (I was privileged to hear Professor Michael Soule describe this impact a few years ago.) Other examples of the importance of top order predators are included in the excellent book edited by Matt Hayward and Michael Summers "Reintroduction of Top-Order Predators".

As for the impact of dingoes/wild dogs on our introduced farmed grazing animals I suggest you and others reading this thread check the Maremma Story at
http://www.dunluce.com.au/articles/maremmas.html
This details one sheep graziers' experience in introducing maremma dogs on their property running in excess of 20,000 head of sheep. They have reduced stock losses from 15% to what they believe is an acceptable 3%, and have not used any chemicals, especially those that have been banned in 99% of countries in the world, including all third world countries (1080).

I once again reiterate my final paragraph above:
One day in the not to distant future the environment science community will look back at our treatment of dingoes with the same horror as we today look back on the practice of 'bleeding' the sick as therapeutic to the diseased human body. We now 'give' blood to treat disease. In the future we will be preserving dingoes to treat the diseased ecosystem.

Oh dear, another misguided Queenslander. Christine, the overwhelming evidence suggests strongly that dingoes protect our small native animals including dusky hopping mice, mallee fowl and hare wallabies, by controlling cats and foxes. To suggest that dingoes are a threat to koalas is not based on sound research, and is mischievous to say the least. I note from your bio that you are a koala expert, I would be interested in reading your peer reviewed articles that substantiate your allegations that 'dingoes are eliminating koalas and other native animals'..

Dear Christine, as you clearly state; there is no peer reviewed research indicating that dingoes/wild dogs are a threat to koalas. I have read numerous peer reviewed articles describing dingo diet, and there is minimal if any reference to koalas being present in dingo scats.

Of course there will be bandicoot and possum remains in fox scats. Foxes and cats, the introduced mesopredators, are the major driver of our dreadful record of small to medium mammal extinctions; not dingoes. Bandicoots, possums, koalas and dingoes all lived in harmony before European man introduced the mesopredators.

And, if the dingoes were NOT present in your study area there may have been no bandicoots or possums for the foxes to eat!

I suggest you read some of Professor Chris Johnson's excellent journal articles and his book 'Australia's Mammal Extinctions
A 50,000-Year History'. I am sure you are aware of his work.

Hi Julie, Im interested in your experiences with dingos and wild dogs. What is your definition of a dingo? How do you differentiate between dingos and wild dogs? What are your direct experiences with wild dogs/dingos and or roaming dogs? I am a low carbon footprinter living in the SE ranges and have had a few experiences with dogs of varying backgrounds. Some wild, some domestic and a few indeterminate. I would like to understand how you view humans in relation to the dogs above. A summary would make your points a lot clearer

Dominic, excuse me butting in. I have just read Deborah Bird Rose's Wild Dog Dreaming (2011, U of Virginia Press) that you might enjoy. It would be in a university library near you. Best wishes.

Thanks for your comment, David. I have not seen that book. Another great book is Roland Breckwoldt's 'A very elegant animal: The dingo' While this was published in 1988 it is still a great read and was far before its time.

The definition of a dingo is difficult. The late Prof Alan Wilton did some ground breaking DNA analysis back at the beginning of the century. This test is often used as a benchmark, but it has flaws as the sample used was relatively closely related and small, so we now believe that it possibly excludes some animals that might well be pure.

A second issue in relation to purity is the role of the dingo/wild dog in the eco system as a top order predator. We do not know if wild dogs carry out the same role. I believe there are some studies being conducted in either the Big Desert or the Sunset Country looking at interactions between cats foxes and wild dogs. This will give us more information. But my thoughts are that if a wild dog (dingo cross) can survive in the wild then it is likely to be performing the role of a top order predator.

Thanks, Julie. I didn't mean to cut across Dominic's conversation with you. But, now that I have ... I have read Roland Breckwoldt's excellent book, in the early 1990s. As I remember he thought the hybrid strains did better in the southern national parks and the "pure" dingo in savanna. Obviously, hard data collection is important and is the CRC's purpose. The context in which data are collected is also important and one hopes the collectors take a look around, every so often. In that respect Aboriginal rock art as an archive of history is interesting (see Paul Tacon of Griffith University, Gold Coast campus) and I think the Dreaming as an oral history is interesting too, hence reference to Deborah Rose Bird. Perhaps the "dingo" was a Thylacine, as Peter mentions above, but whatever, it seems to be elemental to Dreaming of people and not recent. I quote p100 of Rose: "Originally people and dogs were all one creature. In the beginning, when we came out of the ground, we had a long nose like a dog. Dreaming dog came around and looked, and reckoned 'Hey, you done it wrong!' Long nose, big mouth, Dreaming was doing it wrong. Beginning Dreaming was working then. He didn't like his head like a dog. He wanted it to be round. He made a round one out of honeybee wax." I have removed reference to a deceased person. A Quandamooka person where I live in Moreton Bay told me she thought that men and women came from two ribs of a dingo, but she did not feel confident to tell the story. Best wishes.

Hi Julie, So if Im reading correctly, then you feel that any dog in the bush/eco system is acting as a top order predator. Does this include periurban environments, areas around towns, national parks. How do you feel about town dogs and wild dogs co-mingling? Does a town dog become a top order predator when with a dog pack, and then become a pet when it returns to the place of residence? If there are a pack of dogs on properties interfacing with public land should these dogs be handled in specific ways? These are the reasons I was interested in your experiences. You are very out spoken, sometimes derisive, so it would be great to hear how you feel these problems should be handled.

Hi Christine, just from personal experience Ive noted the steep learning curves of foxes when a pack of dogs move onto country. It alters diet and pushes feeding territories wider, but as with any pressure/competition this is not permanent. Dog packs require significantly more amount of prey and so can 'eat out' an area quite quickly. It is the magnification of Human(top predator) interactions with the eco system, including introduced species, that can lead to out of kilter/ unbalanced predator/prey relations. Towns and cities actually breed foxes at a rate that cannot be controlled by any species, human or other, and therefore drives other species to feed outside of what humans consider OK.