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Former minister tells “bastard” Rudd to go now

Former minister Nicola Roxon has delivered a sharp blow to Kevin Rudd. AAP/Alan Porritt

As Labor’s recent period of extraordinary internal harmony shatters, former cabinet minister Nicola Roxon has excoriated Kevin Rudd, forensically detailing his bad behaviour and declaring he should leave parliament for Labor’s good.

Delivering the John Button lecture, Roxon said that removing Rudd in 2010 “was an act of political bastardry, for sure. But this act of political bastardry was made possible only because Kevin had been such a bastard himself to many people already”.

His colleagues had “got overcome by politeness” and thought it would save him pain to move on quickly and say as little as possible, but this “polite white lie” turned to poison. “It was something that Julia Gillard wore as a heavy chain around her neck for her entire prime ministership,” said Roxon, a former health minister and former attorney-general who quit parliament at the election.

“In the absence of a more accurate explanation, Julia was painted as a treacherous deputy, although it was spectacularly unfair and way off the mark,” she said.

“If Kevin was an employee … he would have won his unfair dismissal case, not because there wasn’t cause to dismiss him but because we didn’t explain the reasons properly to him, let alone to the voting public.”

Roxon warned that the “bitter truth” was that as long as Rudd remained in parliament, “irrespective of how he behaves, pollsters will run comparisons with him and any other leader.

“For the good of the federal parliamentary Labor party and the movement as a whole, Kevin Rudd should leave the parliament, otherwise the actions of any Labor leader will always be viewed through the prism of popularity compared to him.”

Rudd has also come under criticism from Maxine McKew in her just released update of her book Tales from the Political Trenches.

McKew, who beat John Howard in his seat in 2007 but lost in 2010, was close to Rudd. But she writes he was off his game in the 2010 election and had created confusion around his own persona.

While the leadership ballot, which elected Bill Shorten, kept the ALP together and in good spirits, this week has been marked by infighting over the frontbench, a bitter outburst from former speaker Anna Burke about the influence of the “faceless men”, and the obvious fact that the factions are still having massive influence, which has stopped as much new blood coming into Labor’s front line as would have been desirable.

Roxon, who criticised Rudd at the time of the 2012 challenge, in tonight’s speech painted him as appalling to other people, a treacherous leaker and stalker of Gillard, unable to deliver on commitments and with a shambolic method of governing. She documented his behaviour in an address framed around “practical tips” for the next Labor government and ALP MPs on how to conduct themselves.

She recounted that when Rudd was barnstorming the country visiting hospitals, on one occasion “over 20 hotel rooms had to be paid for, as the hospital we were scheduled to visit the next day was changed en route in the PM’s plane” and it was too late to cancel the booking.

Several times she, Gillard, treasurer Wayne Swan and senior staff were as told on Friday or Saturday to be at The Lodge on Sunday.

“On one occasion staff spent the whole day on the lawn playing handball, not allowed in but not allowed to go home and rest or be with their partners or family. More than one relationship was destroyed by this relentless disorganisation.”

In 2007 “Kevin was great at the cut through and then struggled at the follow through. In contrast, Julia was brilliantly thorough at delivering but couldn’t always deliver the message.

“Kevin had a fatal attraction to everyone else’s problems. He never saw a problem that he didn’t believe he should try and fix.” Two examples were his interfering and demanding approach to the Fukushima nuclear plant disaster and the Victorian bushfires. “Neither of these were situations where the Commonwealth could have much of a direct role and these excessive meetings called by Kevin in the middle of a crisis took up valuable time of the frontline officials.”

Rudd had “a terrible habit of attending meetings not having read detailed papers that he had commissioned at the last meeting, often very complex ones at short notice.

“I remember one meeting only days before Christmas in 2009 when a total rewrite of health policy was demanded before Christmas. Despite many hours of work into the night, I do not believe that paper was ever to this day read by the PM, let alone over a Christmas holiday he had already ruined for others.”

Roxon said that some issues seemed to run for months, even years without them able to be brought to a head. There was no avenue for ministers to bring legitimately tricky issues to cabinet for real discussion.

“Kevin as PM simply refused to list contentious and often strategic items for cabinet.” She admitted she and other ministers should have insisted on bringing on those discussions.

Rudd had “an overwhelming inclination to focus on the minutiae as a way of avoiding the big, harder decisions”.

Roxon said the outcome from the Copenhagen climate change conference could have been prepared for differently if Rudd had allowed then climate change minister Penny Wong to bring a proper discussion to the full cabinet.

“In addition to the lack of cabinet engagement on some big strategic calls, cabinet was misused by being asked to deal in enormous detail with material it could never hope to be fully across.”

Roxon said that because of Labor’s leadership tension since 2010 “and the relentless stalking of Julia by Kevin’s supporters” every substantive policy issue or decision was viewed through the unhelpful prism of personality or leadership. The leakers and those playing kamikaze politics used issues day in and day out “to keep the leadership issue burning”.

Even if one accepted that the method of Rudd’s removal was unfair “nothing excuses persistently destabilising and leaking against your own team during an election or as a senior minister or as a backbencher.

“I don’t think anyone can any longer be in doubt about how trenchantly and continuously this occurred at both Kevin’s hand and his supporters.”

“Although his removal was dramatic and brutal, it was his refusal to recover with dignity, to rise above the treatment he was meted out … that in my view showed his true nature.”

Urging in one of her tips the need to be polite and “keep yourself nice”, Roxon recalled TV footage of Rudd ignoring the then NSW premier Kristina Keneally during the health negotiations, which had given NSW the upper hand for the first time. “Disparagingly calling her Bambi behind closed doors was silly when in fact she was whip smart and went on to run rings around us.”

She said the Garden Island announcement in the 2013 campaign – when Rudd disparaged NSW premier Barry O'Farrell - “underscored this lesson hadn’t been learned”.

Rudd had always treated her respectfully, Roxon conceded. “Although I was frustrated beyond belief by his disorganisation and lack of strategy, I was never personally a victim of his vicious tongue or temper. I did however see how terribly he treated some brilliant staff and public servants.”

Roxon said Labor had become risk averse, trying to avoid ballots rather than recognising “it is good to have a go and you will win some and lose some”. She said local members should be given more autonomy to raise and campaign on issues for their community.

Join the conversation

265 Comments sorted by

  1. Lee Emmett

    Guest House Manager

    When will Labor's blood-letting stop?
    For all his faults Kevin Rudd is back as a MP, representing his electorate.
    This does nothing to make his work any easier.
    How about regrouping, burying the mess and turning the page?
    This endless navel-gazing is doing nothing for the party.

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    1. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Daniel Verberne

      " I actually think this is both cathartic and useful. "
      I agree somewhat Daniel but it will only be so if in fact the message to go sinks in with Rudd.
      I wonder whether his ego and belief in his divine right to be PM will see that happening.

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    2. Deirdre Alderton

      Retired Health Worker

      In reply to Daniel Verberne

      I totally agree with you Daniel. I have family members who worked in government departments in Canberra during the period of the Labor government and can recall them recounting exactly the same stories that Nicola has put out there. Kevin Rudd has a classical narcissistic personality disorder (arrogant, righteous, grandiose, entitled , lacking in empathy) as as such cannot comprehend the effect his behaviours have on others, and never will.

      He is undoubtedly extremely intelligent and can be charismatic…

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    3. John Q Citizen, Aussie

      Administrator

      In reply to Greg North

      Tony Abbott Vs kevin Rudd

      "
      I wonder whether his ego and belief in his divine right to be PM will see that happening."

      So many parallels and so little time Tony !

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    4. Philip Impey

      Architect+Urban Designer

      In reply to Lee Emmett

      Lee,
      Answer to your question- it doesn't actually stop- it may intensify and then get "put to bed" prior to an election, but when you have a party comprised of a die-hard socialist left faction and a right-wing economically and socially conservative faction, there will always be a state of tension- which is why the formal faction system is essential as the glue which holds the party together. Trouble is, each faction is leaking members to other political parties. To the Greens on the left and any…

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    5. Yuri Pannikin

      Director

      In reply to Deirdre Alderton

      I hope Rudd stays on. I gave up expecting politicians and the political process to be anywhere near exemplary many years ago. All we've got left is entertainment.

      The KRudd certainly gave it to us. I also like his position in the political spectrum, his energy and intellect and his big ideas. Certainly part of the leadership reform that he insisted on has been achieved -- and about time.

      Roxon's diatribe is exceedingly childish. And as for Shorten and Plibersek being the 'dream team' . . . more like the Socceroos, or even the Aus test cricket team!

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    6. Philip Impey

      Architect+Urban Designer

      In reply to Deirdre Alderton

      Doesn't Rudd claim to be Christian? If he modelled himself on Christ, wouldn't he have been more of a servant king, rather than a dictator?

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    7. Robert Tony Brklje
      Robert Tony Brklje is a Friend of The Conversation.

      retired

      In reply to Daniel Verberne

      Sound more like a personal act of revenge by one politician against another and pretty badly thought out when it is with in their own party.
      Kevin Rudd would only have to go if he substantially broke Australian Parlimentary Rules, Kevin Rudd would only have to leave the Australia Labour Party if the membership voted so, Kevin Rudd only has to leave his seat if the electorate in that seat votes him out whether as a Labour member or Independent.
      This petty stab in the back just comes off as a lame act of revenge because her faction under Gillard lost when Gillard lost and Gillard lost because not matter what her personal political supporters say, she did not have the support of the Australian Public and it seems as far as she was concerned she picked up her Prime Ministers retirement bonus and that's all she wanted.

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  2. Comment removed by moderator.

    1. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Decortes Fleur

      " During her time in government ROXON always had weird hair. "
      As Anna Burke has just told the parliament newbies ( and not so new seeing as Mal was there ), there is a crush on time to look after yourself and so Nicola with handling ministries plus a family probably always opted for something practical, easy enough to wash, brush and let it hang.
      Anna btw got comments on whether she is a Bieber channeller!
      " But Nicola in October 2013 is STUCK IN THE PAST......how would Gillard's 'election 2013…

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    2. Decortes Fleur

      Writer Researcher Producer at creative industry

      In reply to Greg North

      1. I hope Nicola Roxon is writing a book - it will sell millions and millions of copies

      2. Gillard ran a clockwork style highly efficient government but wasn't suited to the super role.

      I believe she could have played it right and won a second term in her own right.
      But how would GIllard have won with

      a) her track record following like a heavy black shadow
      b) McTernan advising her on how to bungle the loot and Gillard taking advice from 'psychics' OCCULTISTS and probably even Steve…

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    3. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Decortes Fleur

      Certainly everybody has their strengths and weaknesses Decortes and I'd never attempt to compare the likes of Rudd and Gillard as you have and attempt to come up with a winner.
      Rudd certainly had his appeal to the electorate but his own party and the media had spotted the issues and despite claims of changing, it seemed a leopard does not change its spots, not too much at least.

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    4. Alex Njoo

      Architect/academic (ret.)

      In reply to Decortes Fleur

      I'm breathless. You should be in politics. Your comments read like a Jackson Pollock in words!
      Whew.

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  3. Comment removed by moderator.

    1. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Decortes Fleur

      Decortes, what does a hair style have to do with intellect? You lost me the moment I read this.

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    2. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Decortes Fleur

      All the capitals aside Decortes, hindsight is sometimes wonderful and then again a review of what happened can make people consider why?
      The ALP were in government and in wanting to keep appearing that way with a public that Rudd somehow had garnered so much support with, some things are best left unsaid in public, keeping it concealed as much as possible, even if there was a lot of leakage about individual events.
      Saving face in some respects.

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    3. Stephen Ralph

      carer

      In reply to Ella Miller

      Ella I read the full transcript of NR lecture.

      I can't reach the enthusiastic level you did though.

      As others have suggested it makes you wonder why it went on for so long, and that dedicated Labor ministers didn't get together with KR and deliver a blunt message - shape up or ship out.

      But hindsight is a wonderful exercise.

      In the end I ended up being strangely saddened by the lecture, rather than being enthralled.

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    4. Liz Minchin
      Liz Minchin is a Friend of The Conversation.

      Queensland Editor at The Conversation

      In reply to Decortes Fleur

      Decortes Fleur, please take a look at our Community Standards https://theconversation.com/au/community_standards in particular:

      Keep it relevant. We know some conversations can be wide-ranging, but if you post something unrelated to the original topic ("off-topic") then it may be removed to keep the thread on track. This also applies to queries or comments about moderation, which should not be posted as comments.

      We will remove any content that may put us in legal jeopardy, such as potentially defamatory postings, or material posted in potential breach of copyright.

      Be aware that you may be misunderstood, so try to be clear about what you are saying, and expect that people may understand your contribution differently than you intended. Remember that text can be misconstrued: tone of voice (sarcasm, humour and so on) doesn't always come across when read by others.

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    5. In reply to Ella Miller

      Comment removed by moderator.

    6. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Stephen Ralph

      Stephen, I was enthralled because if our leaders and elected members of parliament really listen' then they will learn that
      a code of silence...
      information blackout is a recipe for disaster.
      I was also enthralled by the insight into;
      how to introduce good policy,
      how to make sure good policy gets air,
      how to bring the voting public into the discussion.
      Lastly
      I guess it would not be necessary for those with integrity... the code of conduct!
      Yes I was enthralled by the truth AT LAST.

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    7. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Decortes Fleur

      Decrotes.... I still do not agree with you.

      I was just about to explore another concept but deleted it because I do not want to fall into the trap you set me.... by the way I am having a bad hair day , and I don't mind at all !!!
      I guess we come from different perspectives and yours is from advertising?
      If it is you are trying to sell me something;
      I can't afford
      don't need
      BUT MUST HAVE if I am to be acceptable ???

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    8. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Stephen Ralph

      " As others have suggested it makes you wonder why it went on for so long, and that dedicated Labor ministers didn't get together with KR and deliver a blunt message - shape up or ship out. "
      When you have a PM popular with the public, there was always going to be an enormous public backlash as there was Stephen and we saw something similar if for different reasons with John Howard not knowing when to call it a day.
      That knowledge of the public backlash to come obviously would have affected consideration of ministers on how to handle Rudd, it being fair to say that thre were enough either acceptive or ignorant of his faults and remember he still had a reasonable following.
      It became a case of doing something quietly quietly, hoping for as seamless a transition as possible in June 2010.

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    9. Stephen Ralph

      carer

      In reply to Greg North

      Take your point.

      As I mentioned - hindsight is great.

      But it just seems like a huge wasted effort in time and resources were spent doing zilch - ministers going around in circles around a dud PM.

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    10. Decortes Fleur

      Writer Researcher Producer at creative industry

      In reply to Liz Minchin

      Dear Liz
      Please Feel free to remove the hairdressing comment altogether - its fine and is off topic anyway.
      Feel free to remove any comments - you're more than welcome.
      There are surprisingly a lot of personal abuse comments arriving directed at readers - and clearly you might advise 'trawlers' that if one objects strongly it is just as effective to 'not comment' or move on to another story in this great newspaper rather than pursue or stalk for vitriol alone, particularly if its (as is mostly the case) older men looking to 'constrain' female posts or force partisan rendering - whether misplaced or 'because its traditional' to abject.
      etc
      many thanks indeed

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    11. Decortes Fleur

      Writer Researcher Producer at creative industry

      In reply to Ella Miller

      Its pretty much about Nicola Roxon and other elected representatives, serving in the parliament, who tend tone highly visible.
      Nicola looks great since leaving politics.
      I am not sure - as I have no idea of how you spend your time - why Parisian Chic as Nicola Roxon's new look, makes you want the haircut.
      I suggest you try amazing wigs - and still keep your own look as well.

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    12. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Decortes Fleur

      Decrotes , yes they tend to be highly visible ... so neat clean and tidy.
      Are you suggesting that now that Nicola "looks good" she would be able to do her job better than she did back then? Or is it that you would be able to "sell her" better than you did back then?

      As to how I spend my time , I read books like "The Sane Society" by E. Ffrom and believe me
      having a "Parisian Chic" does not help to understand what is going on in society... nor will it make me want a new haircut.
      But each to his own... thank God we still have that freedom. I also paint the beauty around me and am good at it ...so they tell me.
      I know what you were getting at originally , but I will not go there, or at least have tried not to.

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    13. Stephen Ralph

      carer

      In reply to Liz Minchin

      I notice my and a number of other comments were removed in this thread.

      I can't recall saying anything outrageous, nor reading anything that was contentious But obviously something untoward caught your eye.

      Can you give us a clue?

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    14. Alice Kelly
      Alice Kelly is a Friend of The Conversation.

      sole parent

      In reply to Greg North

      I don't recall any politician at such a high level (as KR), who embodies such a vast array of failings, but who at a superficial glance has a highly acceptable pleasing public persona. I'm repelled by his intonation now, as it seems to reflect arrogant self-belief, but this time, overshadowed by his presence, seems to have been horrible for many in the party trying to govern, and difficult for the Labour Party to overcome. Nicola Roxon is completely entitled to expand, and reach a conclusion based on his presence, because he is still in parliament.

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    15. Decortes Fleur

      Writer Researcher Producer at creative industry

      In reply to Alice Kelly

      So why does it attract and fascinate you, dear Alice?

      Ella Miller, artist, and Roxon fan, is debating aesthetics and the leveraging of power through non aesthetic 'import' and has evolved into a polemic on visual hierarchy which is clearly inspiring a new paintings - as it sounds.

      The notion of Parisian Chic is one of glamour and cadence, impact in sonic and geometric form and the business of entrepreneurial finesse.
      Nicola Rozon also chose a blue jacket - in the same blue Gillard wore in her You Tube misogyny speech which as a witty earlier comment pointed out - could well have been made in relation to Kevin Rudd in his earlier incarnation as PM 2007-2010
      Nicola Roxon's Button Speech on 'Growing a new aesthetic' (disproving the "revenge best served cold" platitude) is 'trending' globally as a rejoinder to the earlier 'blue jacket misogyny' speech.
      Actually.

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    16. Steve Phillips

      Nurse Practitioner

      In reply to Alice Kelly

      Yet despite all this and the numerous warnings about his character he was/is more popular with Labor voters!?
      Does that raise some difficult questions about either the way the Labor party manages it's affairs and choice of candidates or questions about the fitness of many voters to vote.

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    17. wilma western

      logged in via email @bigpond.com

      In reply to Stephen Ralph

      Senior ministers did speak seriously to Rudd according to Laurie Oakes - not a fan of Gillard's by the way! A special committee was set up in about autumn 2010 regularly meeting to tackle outstanding issues and according to Oakes Gillard worked closely with Rudd on the day-to-day running of government . (pp 360 -361 "On the Record" ) - until it became apparent that this arrangement was not working out.

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    18. Allan Gardiner

      Dr

      In reply to Ella Miller

      Exactly Ella. It's absolutely fultile in banging away at the appearance of Nicola's coiffure per[m] trying to give it a Liberal spray, as no_body has ever been able to tease out even a single strand of evidence from anywhair, and I'm yet to see any hair style that has intellect, excepting those heads seen spor_ting'e trendy t_int'ellect of course...as many of those always look quite smart.

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    19. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Decortes Fleur

      DF
      Perhaps you need to do more research, and then you may not need to show us how clever you are at sarcasm.

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    20. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Allan Gardiner

      Allan, they may look smart but is there anything between the ears.

      I need to develop a better sense of humour !

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    21. Decortes Fleur

      Writer Researcher Producer at creative industry

      In reply to Ella Miller

      Look thanks for noticing that I exist.
      And Sorry Ella - its a great promotion for Nicola Roxon on a full moon to expand her 'fan base' in this 'existential' setting.

      The 'Gillard committee' stuff is old news....an effective buffer zone until blood thirsty hounds, quiet hyena (Bill Shorten) and'power' brokers moved in for the kill.
      Not a substitute -the committee- for a high level executive meeting with Rudd at the table encouraged to take collegiate votes on 'AGENDA' and PROCEDURE and 'BIG PICTURE…

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  4. Leigh Burrell

    Trophy hunter

    "former cabinet minister Nicola Roxon has excoriated Kevin Rudd"

    He's been excoriated already. I would have said eviscerated. Democracy works. You can but laugh at this incompetent and unworthy rabble. Who hates who in the ALP zoo?

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  5. Comment removed by moderator.

  6. Ronald Ostrowski

    logged in via Facebook

    The electorate and media had long known that he was a potty mouthed workplace bully. They took for granted that he and his supporters white-anted the Gillard Government and sabotaged all attempts to get any positive messages out in a climate where most of the media was hostile to the Government and heavily biased towards the LNP. He continually polled relatively high because he had a natural ability to communicate with the broader community. Apparently, bastard that he was, a great many people…

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    1. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Ronald Ostrowski

      Despite what you say Ronald of some ALP shortcomings and Shorten coming, personally I could never understand Rudd's popularity for whilst he might have some ability of opening his mouth, he has always been a rambler if a glossy one and the media started to pick up on that some with a few references to " what did he actually say " etc.
      I always saw him as a showman, albeit of a nature for which I have no desire to see in a leader and I still wonder whether much of the Australian public is just plain…

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    2. Decortes Fleur

      Writer Researcher Producer at creative industry

      In reply to Ronald Ostrowski

      Kevin Rudd has made no comment only to put out a statement that he 'is working on policy'
      So clearly - he's not dead.

      Bill Shorten has grown during the competitive process and has been given a chance to prove himself.

      Its a united team now, under Mr Shorten with Tanya Plibersek as his deputy - rather than a boxing competition as it was during 2010-2013

      Julie Bishop has also grown into her new role as Foreign Minister - in which originally she found daunting starting out as Chair the UN Session on small arms and meeting President and Mrs Obama her first week in office.

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  7. Sean Arundell

    Uncommon Common Sense

    My personal opinion is that by giving this public speech Ms Roxon proves a number of things. First that she herself has learnt nothing from the experience. Two that she herself was and still is part of the problem and not the solution. Three that even now she is out of her depth in even beginning to understand what really happened, how and why. Having also seen Ms Gillard's recent TV appearance (her raw personal difficulties aside of losing just as Kevin had years before her] the above equally applies…

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    1. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Sean Arundell

      Sean, "she herself has learnt nothing"
      I totally disagree with you.
      Sticking ones head in the sand and the cone of silence around the change from Mr. Rudd to JG
      was the start of the down hill slide.
      My reason, the people in Canberra knew, the journalists knew about the white anting of the Gillard Gov.
      The ordinary people like myself just sat and wondered;
      wondered why good policy was not getting air
      wondered why every time there was a good policy announcement the discussion turned to personalities…

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    2. john davies
      john davies is a Friend of The Conversation.

      retired engineer

      In reply to Ella Miller

      Correct Ella. But not only did the journalists know about the "white anting." There are many reasons to believe some journalists, including Michelle Grattan, actively participated in it by regularly, and knowingly, using material leaked by Rudd supporters. Perhaps Michelle could discuss this in one of her future contributions to this site. Honesty in political journalism. Probably more than a little naive of me.

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    3. Stephen Ralph

      carer

      In reply to john davies

      Your comment got me thinking if political journalists can spend too much time in Canberra and become too close to the subjects they should treat dispassionately.

      Politicians and journalists in one sense should never be friends.
      Certainly not attending weddings would be a good start.

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    4. Sean Arundell

      Uncommon Common Sense

      In reply to Ella Miller

      Ella, I believe you maybe confusing my comments/opinion as referring to the content of Ms Roxon's speech versus the act in itself. If it is important to you I happen to agree with much of what she said and I agree with you above that it could be labelled honest and breath of fresh air. I was addressing my personal concern and disappointment about how appropriate and really helpful that was for Labor and the nation as whole. To put that into a simpler context by way of analogy: Nobody would televise…

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    5. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to john davies

      " There are many reasons to believe some journalists, including Michelle Grattan, actively participated in it by regularly, and knowingly, using material leaked by Rudd supporters. "
      Names aside john, if you claim the media used info leaked by Rudd supporters and so it became public, would that also not be a way of revealing the white anting?
      There was surely plenty of inferences of that occurring and so what more can you ask of the media but for they to report on information thay receive and have done something about verifying.
      There will always obviously be a limit to how far responsible journalism can go for if unsubstantiated claims get published, that can lead to problems for the media.

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    6. Sean Arundell

      Uncommon Common Sense

      In reply to Ella Miller

      Ella RE: "The ordinary people like myself just sat and wondered; wondered why good policy was not getting air, wondered why every time there was a good policy announcement the discussion turned to personalities." Isn't it obvious to everyone? The exact same thing is occurring today.
      The National Parliament is barely weeks away from sitting and debating what is in the best interests of Australia and her people. The first piece of new legislation is the matter of Climate Change responses specifically…

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    7. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Sean Arundell

      Sean, I agree with most of what you have said, however,
      I disagree with you on the concept of "family therapy sessions being publicized."
      The Labor Party is a family of sorts.
      The code of silence regarding problems in a family is the reason why problems continue and fester.
      Have you overlooked the importance of "light" on any subject ?
      The code of silence had to be broken on forced adoptions, and given air , the participants may not have enjoyed doing it in public...but it gave the topic air and brought it into the light.

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    8. Alice Kelly
      Alice Kelly is a Friend of The Conversation.

      sole parent

      In reply to Sean Arundell

      Both Keating and Hawke were very competent, Rudd was not. Paul Keating in his office was by all accounts a gentleman, and his staff were extremely loyal. This is the point. Behind the scenes Kevin Rudd was a below average performer, and a bastard.

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    9. Sean Arundell

      Uncommon Common Sense

      In reply to Alice Kelly

      @Alice - I do get the point. Still it does not change the reality that both Ms Gillard and Mr Rudd are ex-Prime Ministers of the nation, and they both performed their work the the very best of their ability and in the service of this nation. As such they both deserve the gratitude and the utmost of respect from all for their personal service to this nation alone. I really do think way too many are missing this point.
      eg I can appreciate the reality of being a sole parent for I was one myself. Not…

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    10. wilma western

      logged in via email @bigpond.com

      In reply to john davies

      A stand - out example is the "letter from a backbencher" written by Michelle during the lead-up to Kevin's 2012 challenge . A prime example of the many available during the Gillard PM ship of hournalists becoming players - part of the action- ,not just reporters and commentators.... though some of the male media, especially George Brandis's favourite shock jock , participated even more directly..

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    11. Sean Arundell

      Uncommon Common Sense

      In reply to Ella Miller

      @ Ella I do understand where you are coming from here, and that's a fair enough comment to make regarding what I had said. My take on your query is this: The issue about forced adoptions was one of historical importance of past unacknowledged harm caused to tens of thousands to this day. It also about justice and the Law today. That unsavoury episode of our collective past was focused upon institutionalized settings where cultural norms were far different than today. Your point about 'shining the…

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    12. Sean Arundell

      Uncommon Common Sense

      In reply to Sean Arundell

      typo: "Where I am drawing the line is that this supposedly 'public interest' about Labor's recent past does NOT rise to the standard of any of the above." iow People inside Labor need to do their own 'therapy' and deep reflection inside Labor. It's their business, and it's their responsibility alone to do it. It's got nothing to do with any one else. They also need the "clear air" and "private spaces" in which to that kind of soul-searching and have frank open discussions. Once their housekeeping or spring cleaning is done, then whoever is in the Leadership can make their choices about making public statements on any reforms and changes in their practices at cabinet & caucus level. What they choose to tell the public at that stage is still their own to make. Not the public. Everyone will get a chance to decide who they want to vote for at the next election in 2016. End of story.

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    13. Ken Piaggio
      Ken Piaggio is a Friend of The Conversation.

      Medical Practitioner

      In reply to Sean Arundell

      People can often think only of the 'detail', others only the 'process', luckily, Sean , you can do both.
      I always thought Kevin Rudd was one of the former and Julia Gillard one of the latter. In Kevin's case it 'buried him' and in Julia's it was an end in itself.
      Both needed each other because otherwise they were not complete.
      I agree that the Labor Party needs to move on and each member of the parliament, past and present, needs to reflect on their contribution to the poor 'problem solving…

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    14. Ken Piaggio
      Ken Piaggio is a Friend of The Conversation.

      Medical Practitioner

      In reply to Ella Miller

      Ella, Your analogy would make sense if those involved were children who needed the communities protection.
      In spite of Tony Abbott's assertion about adults being needed to run the country, the Labor Parliamentarians, last time I looked, were adults.
      Otherwise the 'telling-the-truth' process is just scapegoating.
      However, 'family' is a good analogy for the Labor Party, with the Caucus as the 'Parents' and the Cabinet and Prime Minister as the 'Children/siblings' and the party (extended family…

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    15. Ken Piaggio
      Ken Piaggio is a Friend of The Conversation.

      Medical Practitioner

      In reply to Sean Arundell

      'I am still amazed that KR didn't end up as just another suicide statistic in 2009-2012'. Sean, I would have you 'at my back' anytime. I wish the debate in the public arena over the last three - four years demonstrated the same maturity, responsibility, insightfulness and generosity of spirit as your posts have done in this conversation. Thank you.

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    16. Sean Arundell

      Uncommon Common Sense

      In reply to Ken Piaggio

      Thank you very much Ken. I truly value your comments. It means a lot to me!
      I have no doubt that ex-PM Rudd is and will be eternally grateful that one Thérèse Rein had his back. The woman deserves to be awarded the Honour of Companion of the Order of Australia (AC) plus the Order of Merit from The Queen, in my opinion.

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  8. Greg North

    Retired Engineer

    Full marks for Rocks rocking on and lodging a few decent size rocks into Kevin's thought bubble world.
    There was always plenty of reports of various issues and it seems it was just enough of his front bench that was prepared to say enough was enough.
    There were times when the Queensland helping bloke went missing too, taking about a month off was it in the 2009/2010 summer period, supposedly writing a kids book and I would have thought if the PM was in the country he would be the PM.
    And then…

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  9. Fiona Bisko

    Manager of Childcare Centre at Childcare

    A brave and telling speech by Nicola Roxon. The treatment meted out by Rudd to colleagues and the public reveals him as the disloyal and egocentric leader that we all suspected him to be. Contrary to many comments here, it is obvious that Ms Roxon has learnt a lot from her time working with him and is keen to discuss the pitfalls of his management style so that Labour can move forward and become more effective in the future.

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  10. Chris Colenso-Dunne

    logged in via email @hushmail.com

    '“For the good of the federal parliamentary Labor party and the movement as a whole, Kevin Rudd should leave the parliament, otherwise the actions of any Labor leader will always be viewed through the prism of popularity compared to him.”' ~ Nicola Roxon

    Bugger the Australian Labor party and bugger the movement as a whole. If Rudd's electorate don't want him to represent them in Canberra, then at the 2016 federal election they can vote for someone else to represent the electorate of Griffith.

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    1. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Chris Colenso-Dunne

      Chris, I began to see Mr. Rudd as people see as family violence perpetrator. ( not exactly the best eg but it will have to do)
      He was loved by the voters and seen as a great guy , who at home wreaked bedlam.
      Now I understand why.
      No don't bugger the Labor party let's hope that they learn from it.

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    2. Chris Colenso-Dunne

      logged in via email @hushmail.com

      In reply to Ella Miller

      Ella, I wrote bugger the Australian Labor party because unless you are a member of the ALP or other sundry political parties, then it doesn't matter if the ALP, or the Liberal Party of Australia, the Nats and the Greens vanish in a puff of smoke - if those elected to serve us in parliament would simply do the job they are paid to do.

      Australian taxpayers pay their parliamentarians a fair whack by the standards of the average Australian wage. The independents have shown that you don't have to be…

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    3. Alice Kelly
      Alice Kelly is a Friend of The Conversation.

      sole parent

      In reply to Ella Miller

      Ella, I've watched his wife's concern for him, and wouldn't be surprised if there was a mental health issue which needs attention .

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    4. Chris Colenso-Dunne

      logged in via email @hushmail.com

      In reply to Chris Colenso-Dunne

      Bryan Law not 'Laws'. Just looked him up and read that the poor bugger died in April this year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Law

      I never met Bryan Law. I didn't agree with his strain of anti-militarist pacifism, but I could see that he was a good bloke - unlike the professional politicians, male and female, that run this country. I admired Law for his courage and his integrity. He didn’t do what he did for the money, that’s for sure. I wish this country had more like him.

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    5. wilma western

      logged in via email @bigpond.com

      In reply to Alice Kelly

      That thought occurred to me too , Alice. I first felt that way watching TV of the repetitive visits to hospitals early in 2010 . Roxon's reference to the 20 rooms that had to be paid for because Kevin kept changing his mind about which one to drop in on - gives credence to that feeling I had.

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    6. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Alice Kelly

      Alice, thank you. I don't know how this conversation has degenerated so much.
      I do try to stick to policies and actions that affect our nation.
      I hope that Mr. Rudd fares well.... but I still believe that during the Gillard years Labor ministers should have had the insight to realize that what they were doing was putting at risk all the positive policy initiatives they had worked so hard on.

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  11. Yuri Pannikin

    Director

    If your readers know anything at all about group/team psychology, they will recognise the passive aggressive Roxon in that team -- among others of course. These weak bastards won't stand up for themselves and resort to underhanded, backhanded betrayals.

    Boo hoo, Kevin said a bad thing about me or someone else. Well tell him to F### off then, and patch it up later, you sook! Politics does not function well with people like this. They need to be robust to deal with the inherent nature of energetic political leaders. We are well served by her retirement.

    In truth, Roxon was also too weak to stand up to the malevolent ambitions of a few not-so-faceless men and now she's trying to justify it. What a crock!

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    1. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Yuri Pannikin

      Yuri, I know nothing about group/ team psychology ... you seem to know a lot.
      SO,
      can you please explain using your wealth of knowledge ;
      how come in the Liberal Party and the relevant ministers and elected members have accepted the code of silence... it is not in their best interest but they have. They have given up their freedom of speech ...for what?

      How come they have accepted the Ministry of "truth" ( Orwell 1984)providing or not, information on the asylum seeker situation once a week.
      How come the "ministry of love" (Orwell 1984) has managed to convince the LP and the voting public that a military approach is the only way to deal with humanitarian issues.
      I hope you can because I am struggling with it all.

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    2. Yuri Pannikin

      Director

      In reply to Ella Miller

      Ms MIller,

      The Labor Party is dysfunctional. The LNP is psychopathological. Some of these people are nuts. (Now there's a deep socio-political analysis for you.)

      The Greens are mostly delusional (except for the outstanding Larissa Waters); Clive is barking mad, and the Motoring Party are actually aliens. At least the KRudd was entertaining and with an intellect that is exceptional and intimidating in modern politics. (Reminds me of Gareth.)

      I'm voting informal with preferences to informal.

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    3. Sean Arundell

      Uncommon Common Sense

      In reply to Yuri Pannikin

      @Yuri, Yes! I know what you are alluding to here from experience. For those readers who do not and who are interested in learning more about such matters they may like to begin here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-aggressive_behavior and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder and here http://www.psysr.org/about/pubs_resources/groupthink%20overview.htm
      I'd much prefer the phrase "not-so-faceless people" being used though. Regards Sean

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    4. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Yuri Pannikin

      Yuri, thank you but that does not explain how group/team psychology works ?
      You made the comment so please explain.
      Your voting preference is a right you have, but , it too could be explained by psychology, no ?

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    5. Richard Ure

      logged in via Facebook

      In reply to Yuri Pannikin

      Sadly, it seems she wasn't the only one. It pains me to parrot an Abbott line, but if they can't manage themselves they don't deserve to manage the country.

      The stakes were high if they were to stay in government to deliver important reforms. And now these reforms are at risk because, despite the number of people who felt strongly, they were too weak to stand together and deal with the issue behind closed doors.

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    6. In reply to Alice Kelly

      Comment removed by moderator.

    7. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Ella Miller

      Seeing as Yuri hasn't ben as obliging as you would like Ella, even if you struggle some more with my thoughts I'll give them:
      . First off, a code of silence is something of an exaggeration for an email that Tony Abbott's office put out to parliamentarians re engagements with the media to be co-ordinated through a press person, that to ensure that people are in fact up to date with what they may be asked about etc., it not being too surprising that not all parliamentarians will be as knowledgeable…

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    8. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Richard Ure

      I think you will find that Tony was feeding it back to Labor Richard as it originally came from Paul Keating.

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    9. Yuri Pannikin

      Director

      In reply to Alice Kelly

      It seems, dear Alice, that my oblique reference to Arlo Guthrie's anti-Vietnam war song, 'Alice's Restaurant' was deemed unsuitable and removed.

      And yet . . . endless pap remains . . . which suggests two things:

      1. My age
      2. Moderator's age

      My sincere apologies.

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  12. Thea Biesheuvel
    Thea Biesheuvel is a Friend of The Conversation.

    Writer/Editor

    Yuri Pannakin has it right. This speech is not about the Labor Party and its dysfunctionality at all. It is all about "me", in this case, Nicola. Typical of the generation that thinks a lot but lacks the intestinal fortitude to say things while looking you in the eye. She's just proving it in her own way. The world of politics is now about "spin", either your own or someone else's construction of it.While we have a voting public that is incapable of looking beyond their own interests it will…

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    1. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Thea Biesheuvel

      Thea... I do not agree "it is all about me"
      Can you please explain what N. Roxon has to gain... I think she has a lot to loose by breaking the code of silence.

      Yuri, in all sincerity please answer my previous question!

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    2. Sean Arundell

      Uncommon Common Sense

      In reply to Thea Biesheuvel

      @Thea “The human brain is a complex organ with the wonderful power of enabling man to find reasons for continuing to believe whatever it is that he wants to believe.” Voltaire
      http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/tag/self-delusion For more info about this start here:
      When the objective facts threaten the ego and its integrity, we experience what social psychologists call "confirmation bias," http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evil-deeds/200811/essential-secrets-psychotherapy-truth-lies-and-self-deception and this subject should be part of the standard curriculum in primary school http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance It won't happen but the world would be a much better place to live in if it was. Sean

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    3. Stephen Ralph

      carer

      In reply to Sean Arundell

      Interesting thoughts........Stalin's subordinates were terrified of him - he had hundreds of his officers and supposed colleagues executed.

      Makes you wonder why somebody didn't put a bullet in his head, instead of cowering under tyranny.

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    4. Sean Arundell

      Uncommon Common Sense

      In reply to Stephen Ralph

      @StephenJR A defined lack of personal responsibility and courage? Most likely it was self-preservation. I wondered the very same thing about Saddam Hussein and Iraq as well. Putting international political mythology aside for a moment, I can see no logical reason for even one soldier of the 'Willing' to die because of the mass insanity and cowardice of Iraqis. But that's just me and my uncommon sense. Given the topic here is about ex-PMs may I add that in my personal opinion our worst PM since 1901…

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    5. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Thea Biesheuvel

      Regardless of Nicola's pysche and inparticular re thoughts on Kevin Rudd and as much as some will claim it is all about her and that there may be some truth to that, it is also very much about getting some truth out there, to hopefully set the scene for Rudd and the ALP generally so as to help and motivate a cleansing.
      It is now up to Rudd and his parliamentary colleagues.

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  13. Beams Mlb

    logged in via Twitter

    Thanks Ms Roxon. Shorten and Albanese behaved marvellously and apart from a few flutters recently, ALP was enjoying an unusually peaceful and quiet time.
    Nobody was focusing on Rudd, nobody was looking back.

    You have now managed to create fear and doubt within the ALP again.

    Bravo. Is that your parting gift to a party that gave you a senior role to play?

    One down for women, one down for the ALP, one down for the public.

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    1. Stephen Ralph

      carer

      In reply to Beams Mlb

      Agree, it would have been better a year or so down the track perhaps.

      Now we are back to ground zero.

      Please have them never utter the R word again.

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  14. Terry Morrison

    retired educator/instructor

    With respect to some comments -most of the history of Rudd and his attitudes with others have been well documented previously. Barry Cassidy wrote a book & there have been many indications of the rather "difficult" personality type that Rudd exemplifies in his dealings with some people. A comment I've made elsewhere is the concept of the Peter Principle - in this case an otherwise brilliant charismatic person who never the less acts in a way to alienate those with whom he must work in harmony…

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    1. Stephen Ralph

      carer

      In reply to Terry Morrison

      Call me old fashioned, but I fear the Rudd years will be an on-going saga, just as The Dismissal still haunts us.

      Every year hence there will be books and essays, Tv docos and dramas.

      We shall not forget...or not be allowed to more to the point.

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    2. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Stephen Ralph

      Stephen, we should not forget,
      Just as we should not forget , what was done to the stolen generation.

      Every incoming member of parliament should get a copy of this speech.

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    3. Stephen Ralph

      carer

      In reply to Ella Miller

      Well perhaps we could forget for a while.

      As been said here by others, NR is hijacking Labor's current agenda by speaking out now.

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    4. Sean Arundell

      Uncommon Common Sense

      In reply to Terry Morrison

      @Terry, valuable comments there. My concern is about the endless need of so many to misunderstand and therefore falsely frame the whole of the story. ex-PM Rudd for all his strengths and weaknesses did not, and could not, operate within a vacuum. The same goes for ex-PM Gillard. This situation was never an either/or dichotomy. Yet repeatedly so this is the "framing" in which both our 'wise & learned' Politicians and Journalists default to. No one is well served by this. With the exception of Politicians…

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    5. Gordon Smith

      Private citizen

      In reply to Terry Morrison

      Yes Kevin's personality traits were covered in detail in some media outlets before he was removed. I think that was largely ignored because it come from a source often described as the "hate media" so was dismissed as not being credible.

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    6. Yuri Pannikin

      Director

      In reply to Gordon Smith

      Look, Gordon, Rudd has been around politics for a long time. Every elected ALP member would know his habits and predilections.

      In that case, one has to assume that he was 'used' to get them elected in 2007. Further, they owed it to him to let him run one term. What happened to him was outrageous treachery by any evaluation. The ALP was not even behind in the polls.

      As others have said, the mature approach would have been to gang up and warn him that he was not leading well and to negotiate a better relationship. Instead, they schemed and contrived behind his back. What incompetent fools and weak-minded and snivelling weasels.

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    7. Gordon Smith

      Private citizen

      In reply to Yuri Pannikin

      I was talking more about the general public's awareness rather than the internal party.

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    8. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Stephen Ralph

      " As been said here by others, NR is hijacking Labor's current agenda by speaking out now. "
      Well, that's one view Stephen, but in getting all cuddly and palsy like, all Shorten and Albo have attempted to do is to wallpaper up that which nobody is prepared to address, trying to partition off the elephant up the back.
      If for nothing else other than having members address what had occurred in recent years, Nicola needs to be applauded.

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    9. wilma western

      logged in via email @bigpond.com

      In reply to Gordon Smith

      But not all of it came from the so-called 'hate media" -- David Marr's Quarterly Essay "Power Trip - the political journey of Kevin Rudd " was a warts and all portrait ,definitely.... Marr diagnosed the problems in April-May 2010 ... the essay came out in May 2010 .

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    10. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Sean Arundell

      Sean, I agree with most of what you have said in you last and sensible paragraph.

      I ask you though , had the code of silence around child abuse not bee broken, had light not been shone on the issue by brave people who took the issue head on , by even braver people who had the courage to speak out about their own abuse ... could this have happened? I guess we will never know.
      I view rightly or wrongly what NR did in the same way.

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    11. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Yuri Pannikin

      Yuri, how do you know that he was not warned... how do you know that negotiation was not attempted?
      Just as how do we know that some Liberal members have not voiced the view to TA that they don't like being silenced?
      How do you know?

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    12. Sean Arundell

      Uncommon Common Sense

      In reply to Ella Miller

      @Ella, thank you for the reply. Totally with you on the child abuse, family violence & similar issues & "code of silence" 100%. I do know what it is like for those in such a situation (unfortunately), and how affects can last a lifetime. Also I do totally respect your view/s about NR. Really that's fine, because I understand (I think) where you are coming from regarding that. Honestly I do. I also accept without any doubt that NRs intentions are nothing but for the good of all, she is acting in good faith. It would have been far wiser and fairer in retrospect if I had included such a comment in my original comment this morning. I have nothing against her, nor JG & KR for that matter. again thank you Ella. It's been a pleasure to discuss this topic with you. Much appreciated. Like you, I sincerely care for our nation and it's people. We all do our best, is how try to look at life. Far from perfect on that score. Regards Sean

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  15. alan freeman

    insurance man

    How refreshing to read the TRUTH about that narcissistic little man.
    I have read some of the comments by your other contributors, and there are some valid points made.
    However, the contribution by Mr Pannekin that others had no understanding of "group/team psychology" was a little condescending.
    Unless Mr Pannekin is a female and has worked in the political sphere, I don't think he has the understanding to make such a comment.

    I agree that those surrounding Rudd should have tackled him 'head…

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    1. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to alan freeman

      alan, I agree about the blood letting perhaps I would not have used that term.

      But if Labor can accept the wisdom of her thoughts and include them in their culture then perhaps the HEALING can begin, and with it as you put it "A fresh start"

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    2. Chris Saunders

      retired

      In reply to Ella Miller

      Blood letting in medicine was practiced for hundreds of years. It did not work. It was a myth: paid busy work giving false if painful hope. Far better to introduce sanitation.

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  16. Randy Rose

    logged in via Twitter

    She is doing this to assuage her conscience. As with McKew it's all very well and gutless to moan about Kevin now but where where they before when the damage was being done? Too polite? Give me a break!

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    1. Chris Saunders

      retired

      In reply to Randy Rose

      Maybe they were played: ministries are nice little earners and delightful fulfillment of power ambitions.

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  17. Roberta Watts

    81 year old mother, grandmother retired Health Worker

    Nicola and Maxine and all other "Kevin" critics; for God's sake why don't you just take Kevin out and crucify him. You are right.. he was so "not perfect" but you swanned into government on his coat tails and were happy to do so; you should never have "sacked " him in 2007; he should have been let go to an election and the people could have had their say... but no... you all knew better than the electorate and now of course you are all giving the Coalition more mud to sling. I really despair at the supposed intelligence of you people; as I recall Nicola, a few years back, I read an article or comment, (I'm not sure which) written by a person who had worked in your office and he went into much detail about the disorganisition in your office. Can we please stop with the navel gazing, put it behind us and get on with it, you are just turning the "True Believers" into "non believers". Just get over it.

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    1. Michael Field

      logged in via email @gmail.com

      In reply to Roberta Watts

      Nicola's attack is too personal, but on the other hand you can't bury your head in the sand and it is vital that the ALP becomes functional again. They need to go through a period of self examination, no matter how ugly. The last couple of decades has been a disaster for Labor and they need to talk through why. In my view Kevin was unfit for office, but the problems of the last six years were not all because of him, but also caused by deep structural and policy weaknesses, particularly in Labor's inability to articulate an economic vision for the future. They need to look at everything.

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    2. Chris Saunders

      retired

      In reply to Roberta Watts

      Worse was to embrace his return; it made liars of them all. You either can't work with him, or you can. Those who couldn't left. So it was not such a big thing then when so many stayed and claimed he had never treated them in that way. Although one had to think they must have been looking the other way, and would that be good enough in your workplace?

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    3. Decortes Fleur

      Writer Researcher Producer at creative industry

      In reply to Chris Saunders

      The whole thing is that Parliament is not a 'workspace' its a grand arena with beautiful sweeping vista and great ceremony, marble stairs and fine dining.

      I guess the fear of losing 'uber grand position' stopped 'cabinet' standing up to KR

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    4. wilma western

      logged in via email @bigpond.com

      In reply to Roberta Watts

      Maxine sure didn't" sack" him in 2010 - read the first version of her book where she accuses Gillard of plotting behing Kev's back for all of 2010 up to the ballot that wasn't. She walked beside him into the caucus meeting for the ballot that didn't happen because Kev withdrew and described that walk along the parliamentary corridors as one of the loneliest she ever took.

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  18. Comment removed by moderator.

    1. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Denis Morcombe

      Denis... the labor party damaged the labor party.
      and as for you comments on Nikola's personal life it is unbecoming .

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  19. Geoff Anderson

    Brain Surgeon

    Ex- MPs have, what Gareth Evans described as, "Relevance Deprevation Syndrome".
    They suddenly go from a situation where they are sought for comment 24/7 to being totally ignored.
    Some handle it well.
    Others, like Maxine and Nicola, do not.
    They carry their bile and spew it out whenever possible.
    It's great for their former opponents, outside the party that gave them the chance to have a career in politics.
    It flatters their ego to be reported in the Murdoch and other press.
    But for the rest of us, its like when the toilet blocks and all the stuff you had flushed away comes back at you.

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    1. Decortes Fleur

      Writer Researcher Producer at creative industry

      In reply to Geoff Anderson

      Lindsay Tanner wrote a book as will Gillard
      But surely a game of tennis and a swim helps with 'rehab'
      Bob Carr went straight to work at Mac Bank when he left politics.

      Julia Gillard took office space at her old Alma Mater to 'feel loved'.
      Peter Costello went to QLD.

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    2. Alice Kelly
      Alice Kelly is a Friend of The Conversation.

      sole parent

      In reply to Decortes Fleur

      So what, It's very convenient to judge others who have wanted to be effective politicians. When they leave office, some will still prove to be effective at their chosen work, others will not. I think time will reveal those who can transition. I doubt Rudd in the real world will suddenly be able to perform well, because he seems unable to reconstruct his personality, and unlike others his flaws seem entrenched.

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    3. Decortes Fleur

      Writer Researcher Producer at creative industry

      In reply to Alice Kelly

      How would you know Alice?
      How would you know about business, political or professional relationships Rudd has in China?
      How could you speculate on the business he would run, the offers he would get?
      The Pentagon were kind of keen on what Mr Rudd had done in Foreign Policy Objective in the Region - and that strikes me as the REAL WORLD big time Alice.
      Can you predictably strategise coping as a dynamic team leader or as a 24/7 Prime Minister and measure it against the 'outcome' and 'rank' the media?
      You're so negative Alice you wouldn't get elected in the real world!
      At least thats your online 'misanthrope' entrenched 'thing' you have happening today.

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  20. Michael Field

    logged in via email @gmail.com

    I wonder why all these political hard heads were so scared of Rudd? Back in my student days I was a cab driver and I soon learnt that the scariest passengers were the mad. You'd spend your whole time agreeing with every crazy thing they said and just longing for the journey to end and to get away safely. The problem for Shorten and the ALP is that the mad guy is still sitting in the back seat.

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    1. Yuri Pannikin

      Director

      In reply to Michael Field

      . . . "And loving it." (To quote a notorious member of the intelligence community.)

      Waiting, watching. On the other foot.

      Actually, I'm working on a stage production. It's just called: "Rudd!"

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    2. Michael Field

      logged in via email @gmail.com

      In reply to Yuri Pannikin

      Is there a straight jacket in it? Or doesn't it have a happy ending?

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    3. Yuri Pannikin

      Director

      In reply to Michael Field

      It has elements of Cats and Jesus Christ, Superstar, the KRudd winning out in the end -- and it ends with an ABBA song: 'Lay All Your Love on Me.'

      Any agents out there interested? A book deal? Mini-series? Radio serial? Plastic figures? Collectible breakfast cereal cards?

      Message to all market investors: Short Shorten! Long the KRudd!

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    4. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Yuri Pannikin

      Yuri,
      I will have to see your stage production... politics aside I hope it goes well.

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    5. karen griffiths
      karen griffiths is a Friend of The Conversation.

      retired teacher

      In reply to Michael Field

      Great comment John Holt! This is a very interesting thread, but like most here I'll never understand why labor MP's didn't confront Rudd. Also, like many others here, I fear NR has handed the LNP a mountain of ammunition, so in the new parliament the ALP begins behind the 8 ball, yet again.

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    6. Beams Mlb

      logged in via Twitter

      In reply to Yuri Pannikin

      You'll be rubbing your hands in glee Yuri. More and more material to sift through. Lucky You!!

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    7. Decortes Fleur

      Writer Researcher Producer at creative industry

      In reply to Yuri Pannikin

      You have got a product placement in - without much trouble

      Is there a website Yuri?
      Pretty sure you'll have thousands of 'hits' to start off with, and to grow your sponsorship pitch.

      My advice is to workshop it at local level with what you have and keep working on it - while placing further advertisements.
      Best of Luck....sounds super.

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  21. Stephen H

    In a contemplative fashion...

    So Kevin Rudd is typical of government ministers - that's no surprise. Can't organise? Expects miracles of underlings? Demands information that isn't used? It's all par for the course. We don't elect managers, we elect personalities.

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    1. Decortes Fleur

      Writer Researcher Producer at creative industry

      In reply to Ian Kidd

      Grandiose self worth, antagonising manipulation, lack of emotion, above average intelligence, sophistry and charm - are these not the best law firms putting their finest QC's to work each day ?

      Or is the 'clinical psychopath' defined on your excellent LINK the Holy Trinity of Politician, political staffer and Campaign Director all rolled into one?

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    2. Ian Kidd

      logged in via Facebook

      In reply to Decortes Fleur

      Not just law firms DF. Many organisations and institutions see such traits as desirable with person specs/ selection criteria and job descriptions written to attract such people. ...dynamic, energetic, do what it takes, take no prisoners, high achieving etc. Unfortunately, you can not win against these people and the result is high staff turnover, low moral, wrecked lives and careers.
      Is any of this sounding familiar to the Labor party?

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    3. Robert Molyneux

      Citizen

      In reply to Ian Kidd

      Ian, google "Working with psychopaths" for support for your argument.
      Rudd was known for his ruthlessness during his time with Wayne Goss. Do you have to "have a bit of the mongrel" to cut through / "crash through or crash" (Gough Whitlam)?
      I can imagine Rudd treating Crean, one of the ALP's hereditary princes, with some disdain - well justified if you follow Crean's lamentable recent history.

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  22. Rene Oldenburger

    Haven't got one

    And these are the types of politicians Kevin Rudd had to work with. It's such a wonderful political party and true believers still don't get it

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  23. Decortes Fleur

    Writer Researcher Producer at creative industry

    Heard it said in national media commentary earlier today:
    Nicola Roxon did not manage her relationship with Kevin Rudd very well.

    NICOLA:
    “I remember one meeting only days before Christmas in 2009 when a total rewrite of health policy was demanded before Christmas. Despite many hours of work into the night, I do not believe that paper was ever to this day read by the PM, let alone over a Christmas holiday he had already ruined for others.”

    CLEARLY AS HEALTH MINISTER NICOLA ROXON could HAVE…

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  24. Decortes Fleur

    Writer Researcher Producer at creative industry

    Is Kristina Keneally getting Bob Carr's Senate Spot?

    The strategy so far from 25 June 2013 - 17 October 2013 - a Julia Gillard/John McTernan EXTENDED REMIX RE-BRANDING of THE LOSER AS THE WINNER strategy was to
    Put Gillard and Keneally into the spotlight again on 9/11 to twin up with
    **US Ambassador's 9/11 Valedictory speech in Canberra (Keneally in Canberra releases a statement)
    ** President Obama's speech to the nation on Syria (Gillard announces Professor of Politics)

    Just as the PUBLIC have forgotten all about the Rudd/gillard saga and have moved on embracing Bill Shorten and his wife as the new 'people' Nicola Roxon makes a 'retrospective speech' in praise of Kristina Keneally.

    Will Kristina Keneally take the Senate?

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  25. Comment removed by moderator.

  26. John Clark

    Manager

    Not allowed in or to leave? Was their not one ounce of integrity or self respect within the group? KR was quite justified in responding to the treachery by his Ministry, of whom Ms Roxon was one.

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    1. Yuri Pannikin

      Director

      In reply to John Clark

      We all know the old maxim about "not suffering fools gladly".

      In the KRudd's case he was overwhelmed in his suffering such was the choice of fools.

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  27. Rosemary O'Grady

    Lawyer

    The key word in the headline is: Former.
    The John Button Lecture was a chance (opporchewniddy?) for significance in the teeth of a new Parliament. Instead- more of the same.
    I wonder why the Caucus made KR leader. Didn't they know his character? If not- why not? and if not - why make that choice of Leader? Irresponsible.If they were directors of a company they's have been liable...
    I wonder why KR was never hauled into line - if he was so appalling.
    I wonder why MPs spent a whole weekend afternoon…

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    1. Rosemary O'Grady

      Lawyer

      In reply to Rosemary O'Grady

      ... and , in conclusion , - Ms Roxon was for a time Attorney General. She ought to know that the seat of Griffith is occupied in the House of Representatives by the person elected by the people of Griffith.
      It is no part of Roxon's business to say that KRudd should vacate that seat - he is under a duty to sit.
      But Roxon's little talk is wholly illustrative of ALP dysfunction. In this order Labor politicians see Parliament as their private fiat - it's about them - their careers (sic) their perqs, their egos, and it's about Labor (sic - a misnomer these days) - and finally, if ever, - hardy ver - it's about Representation and Government.
      These people make me sick.

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    2. Decortes Fleur

      Writer Researcher Producer at creative industry

      In reply to Rosemary O'Grady

      I too wondered why there wasn't an impromptu barbecue held with families invited to 'join the team' rather than play handball.

      Perhaps it would have been better for Nicola Pr had she said:
      "we knifed him and got on with it…..pushed him aside for a government of high heels pearls and girls – justice equity and intellect in a push up bra –
      These were the best years of my life
      He was a bastard…..we served him like a Prince.
      Then we knifed him – much as we would do to a real Prince if we got the chance.

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    3. Sean Arundell

      Uncommon Common Sense

      In reply to Rosemary O'Grady

      @ Rosemary the Lawyer re: ex-Attorney General & "It is no part of Roxon's business to say that KRudd should vacate that seat - he is under a duty to sit." Thank you for noting that here Rosemary.

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  28. Mike Brisco

    Scientist at Flinders University of South Australia

    In fact, Rudd should be arrested in a midnight raid, and put in a solitary cell. The Party should remove his books and articles from its libraries - photoshop out his image from group photos.

    This will allow Mr Rudd time in solitary, to consider the error of his ways, and how he has been out of step with the laws of historical necessity. This process can be aided by giving him pen and paper, and eventually permitting him outside exercise, as a reward for compliance. If that does not work - sleeplessness and midnight interrogations in a brightly lit room, will do the trick.

    Rudd will write a confession, which the Party can broadcast. They will then put him on trial (he will agree with it, for the greater good of the Party), where he will confess his errors. This will be broadcast on radio, and reported in detail in the papers. Everyone will read it.

    I

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    1. Sean Arundell

      Uncommon Common Sense

      In reply to Mike Brisco

      @ Mike, have you considered applying for a job at the Chaser? smiling - sadly, your eruddite humour (excuse the pun) is a hairs breath away from almost being exactly what some Labor folks would like to do and possibly might see it as not only justified but perfectly sane and rational under the circumstances. with a deep deep sigh.

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  29. Steven Rudolphy

    GP & Part Time Senior Lecturer in General Practice (Cairns Campus) at James Cook University

    Nicola Roxon oversaw the introduction of GP superclinics subsidised by the tax payer. She does not seem beyond not listening to her department or experts and was subject to the same hubris as her PM.

    "The secretary of the Health Department, Jane Halton, made it clear at a Senate estimates committee hearing that the criteria selecting sites was a matter for the government, not her department."

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/super-clinic-sites-not-chosen-by-department-20101020-16u89.html#ixzz2hw5JXkfo

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  30. Ken Alderton

    PhD student, former CEO

    If you talked to anyone who knew/worked with Kevin Rudd when he was Chief of Staff to Wayne Goss and DG of the Office of Cabinet then Ms Roxon’s comments come as no surprise. Kevin’s behaviour and organisation defects have been no secret.
    Knowing all this, why did 50% +1 of the Labor caucus vote for him as their leader – twice, once in Opposition and once in government?

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    1. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Ken Alderton

      It's kind of like asking ain't it Ken " what was that plane doing up there? ".

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  31. Decortes Fleur

    Writer Researcher Producer at creative industry

    Its all been said and done - drags on a little.
    But when Kevin Rudd was knifed in the back in 2010
    many close to 'it' religiously blamed the Kevin Rudd suite of environmental policies spear headed by the carbon tax as the reason he had to go.

    Nicola Roxon has 'deviated' somewhat painting Kevin Rudd's chaos onto a new canvas.
    It appears to have been an absolute drudge, for her and others in the parliament under Kevin Rudd and a delight to work in Gillard's government.
    Thats very very clear…

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  32. Robert Molyneux

    Citizen

    So Rudd always treated Roxon politely and with respect, but she noticed him being nasty to others, and he sometimes required people to work overtime and during their holidays. And sometimes his flying visits came unstuck.
    Yet she never said anything to him about these failings, and she thinks that before shafting him they should have explained why they were doing it. Meanwhile, Crean thinks it makes sense to publicly ridicule him, and then call a leadership spill without checking whether Rudd will turn up.
    I think there is a book waiting to look at all these people and try to understand why NONE of them did anything to alert Rudd to these issues. How could a Cabinet of adults and supposedly competent politicians allow this to happen?

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  33. susie brown

    retired social worker and manager

    I have just read the full text of N. Roxon's speech. What a disappointment to once again see a respected member of the press corps ignore the excellent critique of the labor government almost in total to only concentrate on the strong criticism of Rudd and to add to the lazy mantra 'they are still at each others throats' All the quotes I have already heard and read this past 24 hours, no value adding here! The media seems simply to 'cut and paste' and follow the leader, everybody writes what everybody else writes. The sad thing is that this abrogates the very important function of a free press in a functioning democracy. But Michelle why do you need to continue with is poor practice now you are free of the mainstream demands (I assume)?

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    1. Robert Molyneux

      Citizen

      In reply to susie brown

      Susie,
      "Roxon warned that the “bitter truth” was that as long as Rudd remained in parliament, “irrespective of how he behaves, pollsters will run comparisons with him and any other leader.
      “For the good of the federal parliamentary Labor party and the movement as a whole, Kevin Rudd should leave the parliament, otherwise the actions of any Labor leader will always be viewed through the prism of popularity compared to him.”"
      So a statesman should quit because the Murdoch Press will continue to run nonsensical polls? Surely now that the COAL_ition is in, the Press should start comparing Abbott and Turnbull as voters start to "repent" of putting an arrogant god botherer into power. And then Turnbull should resign?

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    2. Decortes Fleur

      Writer Researcher Producer at creative industry

      In reply to Robert Molyneux

      Malcolm Turnbull does share Rupert Murdoch's vision of a republic and a brand new constitution for Australia.....but at what cost/?
      But Tony Abbott's unified party have discourse and have identified so many 'other' policies worthy of Murdoch's 'clutch bag'....the 'play' between Malcolm and Tony may never surface.
      Leadership speculation is a million miles off centre, just as it was during John Howard's time.
      When the new parliament opens we'll see the standard of debate.

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    3. Allan Gardiner

      Dr

      In reply to susie brown

      But Susie, it's quite evident that you've not written exactly that which everybody else has freely done so_lecistically, all of those except me that is d_en'cumbered here trying to defiantly dodge huge swings from a huge stick whilst jabbing at the odd letter here and there on the keyb_ouch..err..keyboard.

      I can tell you right here and now that I was never cut ouch..err..out to cop the pasting I get in here every day. I to_ouch..err..too live for that decidely distant day when I'm completely free of the painstre..err..mainstream demands.

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  34. Dave Satterthwaite

    logged in via Facebook

    On behalf of News Corporation, I'd like to thank Ms Roxon for providing an entire box of ammunition to continue promoting the mantra that the Labor party are a bunch of vicious, infighting losers.

    While this may indeed be true, I'd suggest that the energies of Labor members be better spent dealing with this issue internally and permanently, rather than simply blurting it out so the conservative media can trumpet it to the already disgruntled populace.

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  35. Comment removed by moderator.

  36. Garry Bickley
    Garry Bickley is a Friend of The Conversation.

    Retired teacher

    "a bitter outburst from former speaker Anna Burke"...Typical Grattan overstatement. Always the journo hyperventilating and exaggerating.
    "Angry" yes, but not "bitter"? Burke will pull in with the party line and presumably, hopefully not do a Rudd, sulking, leaking and subverting and taking Labor out of the running for at least two terms!
    As for the right of Roxon to speak out, why not? We live in a democracy and she is no longer in government or parliament.
    Had she spoken out to Rudd before the Gillard move, as she says, things may have been different.
    Open discussion shouldn't be stopped. Subterfuge, leaking, feeding the press monkeys, undermining for one's own selfish interests and not the interests of the party and its goals, must. Rudd's methods need to end. Rudd must be thrown out before the party can heal.
    The cancer must be excised.
    Roxon's speech is a gem.

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    1. Carol Chenco
      Carol Chenco is a Friend of The Conversation.

      Research Officer

      In reply to Garry Bickley

      After reading all these posts - very time consuming, I must say to you Garry Bickley 'my thoughts exactly'. For the record I think Nicola Roxon has always been very impressive and I don't think anyone mentioned the way she dealt it up to the tobacco industry - she can certainly handle the heat so if she or her team couldn't deal with Rudd, then I think that says a lot about how unapproachable he was.

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    2. Allan Gardiner

      Dr

      In reply to Garry Bickley

      It'd be a lot better if the party was seen to heal first then throw a huge party where they could all kick up their heel's butt for one...who could then be kickev..err..kicked out.

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  37. Anthony Irven Scott

    Primary School Teacher

    Nicola Roxon should be congratulated on making this speech. As an insider, she has set the record straight about the calumny of the Rudd forces in bringing down a policy driven Prime Minister! Roxon wants to put on the record the reasons why caucus changed leaders in 2010 and why Gillard should have been left in place to face the 2013 election.

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  38. Greg North

    Retired Engineer

    Yuri the would be musical producer says
    " In that case, one has to assume that he was 'used' to get them elected in 2007. "
    And any good musical should have a punchy start.
    Like it is not as if Labor had been blessed with leadership success in the Howard era and Kevin started promoting himself in foreign affairs, according to Craig Emerson by some nifty undermining of the then Labor shadow bloke Laurie Ferguson and then at some stage he got himself a regular gig on Sunrise, and so with the lights…

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    1. Yuri Pannikin

      Director

      In reply to Greg North

      Greg, I can just see them all streaming onto the stage in the final act, arms linked, smiles all round, high kicks, singing 'Always Look on the Bright Side of Life'. (Shorten is on the phone to Murdoch while attempting high kicks, which is not a good look.) Be still my beating heart.

      Then the KRudd abuses Roxon (the poor dear flower) for getting the timing wrong and she embarrasses herself on stage.

      Meanwhile, Marr and Cassidy are beside themselves in the front row, furiously taking notes on their phablets.

      "Rudd said a bad word to her . . . yes I heard it," says Marr.

      Cassidy smirks -- in that cruel and unusual way -- indicative of brain damage caused by a parasitic worm. "Yeah, I heard it all right. And if I didn't, duzzn't matter. It was the F and C words wasn't it though . . . fancy a drink after?"

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    2. Decortes Fleur

      Writer Researcher Producer at creative industry

      In reply to Yuri Pannikin

      Sound of Music revisited.... a common foe: who would it be?
      PNG & Indonesia? Or India and China tearing Ms Gillard heart, apart in a pivot.

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  39. Ken Alderton

    PhD student, former CEO

    Why is so much ink and electronic space being devoted to this matter? What difference will it make to the next three year term? Kevin Rudd’s colleagues fully understand what he is like or if they didn’t know before they know now. This is pure indulgence on the part of the Labor party and pure distraction by the Coalition. It distracts attention from their U turns on asylum seeker policy, their gaffes in foreign policy and the chaos in their emission control policy. It has all the hallmarks of a good story in New Idea

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    1. Philip Impey

      Architect+Urban Designer

      In reply to Ken Alderton

      Why is so much ink and electronic space being devoted to this matter?
      To remind everyone that what certain insiders said of Rudd before he was elected PM (first time) turned out to be true, despite the spinning of the popular press leading up to the 2007 election. If only we'd listened to these people then, wouldn't Australia be far better off and $$$ Billions less in debt?
      I know that wisdom in hindsight is easy, but those who knew the "modus operandi" of Rudd when he was Goss's departmental head warned us. He wasn't known as Dr Death for nothing. And what is it that said about who won't learn form history?
      Maybe next time we'll all see through the hype- but with certain journalists, I doubt it.

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    2. Ken Alderton

      PhD student, former CEO

      In reply to Philip Impey

      Firstly, this is not history it's gossip. Was the fall of the Labor government and "$$$ Billions" in debt all due to Rudd? Did the other Ministers including Roxton and the caucus have no role?
      They had the collective power to control him. This looks too much like scapegoating.
      Secondly, don't blame the journalists. It's the reader's job to exercise the approriate amount of scepticism and check accuracy. It's amazing how easy it is these days.

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    3. Allan Gardiner

      Dr

      In reply to Philip Impey

      Philip, being deeply indebted to fiendly..err..friendly people/nations is not always a bad thing because they'll then donate..err.. do everything they can to ensure that you don't meet with an early demi$e.

      There's a distinct difference beneficially between those who learn from history and those who just prefer to earn from it.

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    4. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Ken Alderton

      " Kevin Rudd’s colleagues fully understand what he is like or if they didn’t know before they know now. "
      If Kevin stays the distance, there're many people who need constant reminding and even then it may not work for look at what has happened just three months back!
      Everybody knew and still they went to him and Kevin and his cardinals will likely be considering this as a passing irritant as they plan for his future revival.
      Kevin btw cause the greatest chaos ever for dealing with the people smuggling and he and Julia have a lot to answer for re the numbers that have been taken to their deaths.
      No gaffes in foreign policy as yet though what about Kwvin and what he referred to the Chinese as? and then there a few other insensitivities in the middle east.
      Not too surprising actually seeing as he was basically his own agent, doing his thing without any consultation with Gillard.

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    5. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Ken Alderton

      And Ken, it's a bit like that new tele show The Blacklist.
      The catchy phrase being " that was fun, lets do it again " , Labor's woes all over.

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  40. Sean Arundell

    Uncommon Common Sense

    Some topic related background information regarding the Labor's EIGHT Leaders in 17 years 1996 to 2013 :
    Gillard was first elected to the House of Representatives at the 1998 federal election representing Lalor, a safe Labor seat near Melbourne, replacing Barry Jones who retired. She made her maiden speech to the House on 11 November 1998.
    Kim Beazley (1st time) 5y 8m 3d (19 March 1996 – 22 November 2001) Loses Political Coup by Crean & Co, Gillard backs Crean
    Simon Crean 2y 10d (22 November 2001…

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  41. Comment removed by moderator.

  42. Dale Bloom

    Analyst

    Apart from playing the man and not the ball, I was shocked by the language used by Nicola Roxon.

    As an ex Attorney-General, one would expect far more decorum and self-control.

    Instead there was an outpouring of abusive and aggressive language from Nicola Roxon, more suitable for a gossip columnist in a cheap rag, instead of a speaker at the John Button lectures.

    But as a man, perhaps I’m too sensitive and caring.

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    1. Yuri Pannikin

      Director

      In reply to Dale Bloom

      You are indeed a caring, sharing man, Dale, as is the KRudd. I've noticed. We are indeed rare in this age of self aggrandisement. Ms Roxon seems not to be from our school, seeking only to disparage and discredit the truly worthy.

      But that's a scorned woman for you . . ;-)

      (Delete me, I dare you!)

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    2. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Dale Bloom

      Dale, whilst I am starting to see and worry about the personal attack and the affect it may have .
      There were good points in the speech in relation to policy development, why good policy did not get air, how to introduce new policy, how to include the voting public so that new policy is understood and accepted.
      If Labor is to get their act together they need to pay heed to the lessons of the past and that a code of silence about important issues ...is not the best policy.

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    3. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Dale Bloom

      I've seen reports that Julia, her beaus, Shorty, Nic and the crowd were all rather chummy around Trades Hall and local bars in Melbourne a few decades back Dale and the language in plenty of bars can be rather broad based you could say.
      And what is it that is said about taking someone from somewhere but there's always a bit of that somewhere in the someone?
      Might even apply to Nicola and the Union background.
      Even in parliament, she was no shrinking flower when it came to using or abusing the opposition, one such case involving a promotional box of a couple of golf balls, apparently having been left over from some sort of a health department promotion on sport under the previous government.
      She wanted to slide the box across to the opposition claiming they needed some balls.

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    4. Dale Bloom

      Analyst

      In reply to Ella Miller

      I match Nicola Roxon’s abusive and aggressive language with her previous statement that Tony Abbot was “fair game”.

      http://www.smh.com.au/national/abbott-is-still-fair-game-says-roxon-20121007-276wk.html

      That was the most officious statement I have ever heard from an Attorney-General, and it seems that she was interested in using her position to attack an individual who was not breaking the law.

      But I have a good idea for Nicola Roxon. There is a job coming up with a bricklaying gang in a suburb of Sydney in a few weeks.

      She could apply, and although it is hard work, it would diversify her experience, and add a new dimension to her understanding about how the public actually lives and works.

      If they would have her.

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    5. Yuri Pannikin

      Director

      In reply to Greg North

      Dear, dear me, Greg, should this be true -- and I remain shocked -- is there no end to such salacious and lascivious behaviour by our revered retired flower, Roxon?

      What overcame her? Was she but under the influence of the strange and mythical essences that from time to time imbue certain members of parliament?

      The KRudd would never lower himself to that level of inflammatory imputation, even in the zenith of the morn.

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    6. Dale Bloom

      Analyst

      In reply to Yuri Pannikin

      You don't have to dare ME.

      Delete yourself.

      Are you a sook?

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    7. Yuri Pannikin

      Director

      In reply to Dale Bloom

      Ahh, yes, Dale. That was a sarcastic note to the moderator regarding a previous post removal. (See reply to Alice above.)

      I can see that you would have seen it as a response to you. My apologies.

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    8. Dale Bloom

      Analyst

      In reply to Yuri Pannikin

      Yes, other comments from Nicola Rixon in the past may have been Freudian slips, but it appears that her recent comments were purposely written into her speech.

      It becomes difficult to accept the rest of her speech when most of it appears to be written as a part of a character assassination.

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  43. john davies
    john davies is a Friend of The Conversation.

    retired engineer

    Just came back to this thread to see where it went. What a ridiculous turn (or turns) it took. I wonder how many of the most profound commentators read the actual Roxon speech? In its entirety?

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    1. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to john davies

      " In its entirety? "
      Of course john I do not need to inform you what this article is about in its entirety.
      Just in case you missed the header
      " Former minister tells “bastard” Rudd to go now "
      Hence the straight line path of comments rather than a turn or turns.

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  44. James Hill

    Industrial Designer

    A man chosen by the ,of which he was no member, because he presented as John Howard-Lite, complete with glasses and high profile conversion to the Anglican church.
    So without any factional support and chosen so as not to scare the voters, how long was he going to last?
    He tried to leave them trailing in his wake but ultimately left his deputy in command of the country, for too long, as he payed Foreign Minister PM.
    So the factions made this John Howard-Lite their leader and then they un-made him.
    He was a dispensible "tool" of the factions chosen to win government, and the factions cannot then blame their tool for their failures, just as a bad tradesman blames his tools.
    The same can be said of the conservatives and their "tool" Tony Abbott, "John Howard Sh-te" rather than John Howard Lite?
    Unless they are all just tools of Murdoch.

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  45. Patricia Buoncristiani

    Educator at Thinking and Learning In Concert

    What fascinates me is Rudd's refusal to respond or rebut any of the appalling personal attacks that have been visited on him. Regardless of they how felt about the man, he was a member of Caucus, Foreign Minister or Prime Minister throughout the time when his colleagues back stabbed and maligned him. This was shameful behavior.

    The character assassination and public airing of dirty linen by the likes of Swan, Emmerson and now Roxon bring more shame on their heads than on Rudd's. I think Bowen's…

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    1. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Patricia Buoncristiani

      " Throughout all of this, Rudd has exercised enormous self control by refusing to comment. Hardly the behavior of a narcissistic pathological personality, I would have thought. "
      It could however Patricia be the behaviour of a person with a split personality make up, on one hand, I was the PM and I am above all these allegations hence remaining aloof and then when he was the PM or working on becoming the same again, the street fighter would come out.
      Sure, there are always two sides to a story…

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    2. Philip Impey

      Architect+Urban Designer

      In reply to Greg North

      At the end of the day, Labor knew that Rudd was a flawed individual before they elected him leader- he said so of himself.
      "Can I just say anyone in this business who’s honest about it knows that they are flawed and failed human beings, and I’m one of them."
      ( ABC's Compass interview with Doogue, G 8/5/05)
      And his reputation as Dr Death is not based on mere rumour but on research by academics (Fitzgerald, R and Prasser, S). Again i say, we were warned, but Labor and their spinners convinced Australia otherwise.
      "To know what a Rudd Labor government might look like, take a peek at what happened in Queensland when Rudd held sway in the Goss government.Every picture tells a story, and Queensland's not one to admire." (Prasser,S in the Australian 11/1/07)

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    1. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Greg North

      Not for Mr. North
      Woww, a moment ago on AM
      The staff of TA complaining;
      all work to be vetted by PM
      longer hours
      less pay for staff despite politicians getting a rise .....
      Sound familiar... ?
      Who was it on this conversation that Ta and K Rudd have similar personalities. Well done !
      So are we going to condemn those staff members who spoke out like we have N.R.?

      I can't believe it but am delighted...
      how long before the rest of the house of cards start falling down.
      Come on Mr. Shorten do your job ... I heard nothing from you..YET..good opportunity missed?

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    2. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Ella Miller

      " Who was it on this conversation that Ta and K Rudd have similar personalities. Well done ! "
      Probably someone disillusioned that Rudd hasn't gone and making up stories as usual so I'd be careful as to what is to be believed.
      For instance, Tony Abbott definitely believes ministers are to be responsible and accountable without him interfering unless there is a just reasoning for it.
      As for vetting, could it be that the PM wishes to have knowledge of what staff are working on for as PM he'll be driving the agenda and it is definitely never a good look if someone goes off and does something off their own bat and it is not in full accordance with government policies.
      Never a good look that and as for what might be on AM, devil always in the detail.

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    3. Philip Impey

      Architect+Urban Designer

      In reply to Ella Miller

      The major complaint seems to be the work ethic of Abbott's chief of staff Peta Credlin and the power she's wielding. What's that?- a woman with too much power- noooo!
      Can't have it both ways, either Abbott's a misogynist and doesn't respect women or he's giving them too much power.
      Poor TA- typical male, damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

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    4. Robert Molyneux

      Citizen

      In reply to Greg North

      Greg, I thought your previous post was very amusing. Is there an emoticon for dribbling over the keyboard?
      Make up your mind(s). Does Rear Admiral Abbott believe Ministers are responsible and accountable, or does he wish to have knowledge of what staff are working on?
      Fair enough, as your recent post so cogently argued, policy is being developed as we (and the Ministers) wait with bated breath - the trouble with hiding your policies from the voters is that you must also hide it from your shadow ministers in case of leakage, so there is a sharp learning curve. As Barnyard Joys mentioned, "government dropped into (their) lap" so some zig-zagging is to be expected.

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    5. Ken Alderton

      PhD student, former CEO

      In reply to Greg North

      Listen to the report again. The staff were complaining about "Peta Credlin" and the "PM's office". It sounds more like we have another Dr Death in the form of Peta Credlin.
      This would be more in line with events both in the campaign when it was obvious that Mr Abbott was working to a tight script and afterwards when Ms Credlin sat directly on the PM's left in his meeting with Chinese President Xi Jinping.
      Remember no one elected Ms Credlin but it looks very much like she might be running the bloke who's running the country.

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    6. Ken Alderton

      PhD student, former CEO

      In reply to Ken Alderton

      Sorry this answer should be directed to Ms Ella. I'm so used to hitting the gnome's button I goofed

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    7. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Philip Impey

      Aha!, that's quite a possibility to have a COS with quite a bit of drive and no doubt she has that to have held the position for a number of years now from what would have been a quite youthful age.
      All COSs doing their job well will have reasonable clout for they will play a huge role in organising things for the PM, re his itinerary, what he neesds to be briefed on etc.
      It's not the West Wing but that does give some idea of how a good leader has reliance on competent and organised support staff.
      I can believe how you would have been delighted Ella but now with some disillusionment, do not be too sad or hard on yourself.

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    8. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Philip Impey

      Phillip. sorry but Peta is putting into action what Ta instructs.
      Three word slogans will no longer do.
      But let's keep to the topic are we going to condemn staffer like we did NR?

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    9. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Ken Alderton

      KEN
      I doubt it ,
      the bloke who is running the country..
      who is known for his cone of silence since the election
      is running what Peta is doing!!!
      wait and see as we saw with the NR situation the cat will eventually get out of the bag.!

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    10. Ken Alderton

      PhD student, former CEO

      In reply to Ella Miller

      You only have to rerun the LeeSayles/BHP interview to see what happens when Mr Abbott has to sail on his own. That's why he has been silent except in controlled, scripted situations. .
      Watch the number of stories, reports etc in the future that contain the words "the PM's office..."

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    11. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Robert Molyneux

      " Make up your mind(s). Does Rear Admiral Abbott believe Ministers are responsible and accountable, or does he wish to have knowledge of what staff are working on? "
      Robert, this is likely a case of you having that endless serve of cake
      Yes, TA is on record as clearly stating how he sees ministers holding responsibility and without his interference.
      The staffer issue is it seems related to the dynamics of TAs COS who TA has full confidence in.
      Re the cogently, policy development is something…

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    12. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Ken Alderton

      The assumptions are running on high octane again it seems Ken and could it have been an interpreter that was in the PMs meeting with the Chinese President.
      I did see some footage of their meeting and though there was a long haired woman at the table, I would not swear it was the PMs COS and even if she was there, it would have been no cause for concern and to the contrary, in having someone keeping relevant notes, that could only help on follow ups.

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    13. Decortes Fleur

      Writer Researcher Producer at creative industry

      In reply to Ken Alderton

      Precisely! Better looking than Chris Pyne ( in a feminine way) and selling off university places in Australia without a PORTFOLIO.
      The only difficulty with GLAMAZON Peta Credlin is that Peta Credlin is not an elected official, but has been acting place of - in fact replacing democratically - elected officials like:
      Michaela Cash - minister assisting the prime Minister on Women
      Marise Payne
      Susan Ley - assistant Education Minister
      and as an unelected official the impressive Peta Credlin is not ACCOUNTABLE.

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    14. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Ella Miller

      I doubt a lot too Ella and especially that a cat will get out of the bag when there is no cat nor bag.
      As you would appreciate bagging of Labor over their many problems also does not mean they or anyone else is pulling bags over them as much as it could help them.
      You do have a strange idea of the roles of COSs and comparing a person like Rudd with someone else's COS also has strangeness about it or is it just that Lefty trait coming to the fore with desperation!

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    15. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Ken Alderton

      " You only have to rerun the LeeSayles/BHP interview "
      Aha!, the great video library, what a hooten good time video party nights must be.

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    16. Ken Alderton

      PhD student, former CEO

      In reply to Greg North

      Make up you mind. Was it an interpreter or a "long haired woman"
      Look at the footage again. The interpreter is Chinese and sitting next to President Xi Jinping. While you're at it, watch the part where the Australian party is coming in to sit down. There is a full face view of the very tall "long haired woman"
      Secretaries and PAs take notes, not Chiefs of Staff .

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    17. Robert Molyneux

      Citizen

      In reply to Greg North

      Greg,
      ..." there having been a reference made to 2012 statements, that being some time ago."...
      I think it was a reference made to 3 word slogans and how they have morphed into "I said that?" followed by slap to forehead!
      I hate to say it, but I agree with you that moving beyond 3WS into sensible fleshing out of thin policies is a good thing. And I hate to say it, but Julia's reign was characterised by atrocious COSs who seem never to have assisted her to sell her story properly. Policial tin ears.
      BTW I think your claim that KR dissed AA ("will this guy ever stop talking?") was very funny, but I suspect you were just stirring.

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    18. Ken Alderton

      PhD student, former CEO

      In reply to Greg North

      Shoe starting to pinch? But it was all Lee Sayles' fault, she deviated from the script.
      The ABC (and others) keep the video library for me. It's useful for making before and after comparisons. All in the Dear Leader and associates' own words,

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    19. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Ken Alderton

      Aha!, interpreters do not have long hair!
      Unlike you, I feel no need for keeping footage clips and some COSs may well just record info be it in note form or however and that would certainly save dragging a secretaries/pa team on tour, a COS

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    20. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Robert Molyneux

      " BTW I think your claim that KR dissed AA "
      I didn't know he was dissatisfied with the help on his drinking problems!
      Is that why the Lodge reno is going to take the best part of a year?
      Too many bar room parties whilst Nic and the teamsters had to tread carefully on the grass!

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    21. Chris Saunders

      retired

      In reply to Philip Impey

      You’re missing the subtleties Philip. Here we have a mother figure, bossy and on demand meeting the every need of the favoured son, not an equal.

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    22. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Ken Alderton

      I can understand Ken that you would always be looking for any perceived faults no matter how minor or irrelevant they may be in the greater picture, many politicians having various moments, especially when it is someone like a Leigh Sales doing a forceful interview, something she is quite good at and no fault attributed to her.
      You could even have a look at interviews she has done with Thought Bubble Rudd on the Thought Bubbles and then there are a few with Julia, one in particular where if Julia could have come out of the screen she would have to want to devour some of Leigh.
      As I posted about a week back, I do wonder whether Labrusties understand their own ways to the extent of having any idea what they do for themselves.

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    23. Robert Molyneux

      Citizen

      In reply to Greg North

      Greg,
      Tall Chinese woman, long black hair - are you sure it wasn't Wendy Deng, making sure Rupert's agenda was being properly implemented?

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    24. Robert Molyneux

      Citizen

      In reply to Greg North

      No, I am just following one of your directives to treat Rear Admiral Anthony Abbot with due respect. "Tony" is much too informal, I feel. RAAA is much more cheery leader than RATA, which makes him sound like the Chief Rodent.

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    25. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Robert Molyneux

      " Tall Chinese woman, long black hair - are you sure it wasn't Wendy Deng, making sure Rupert's agenda was being properly implemented?
      With the US woes Maybe Rupert has put his faith in Chinese technology and misread (ageing eyesight issues) that Kim Suozzi was a Chinese person and he knew he would not have any difficulty coming up with $70G
      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2268011/Kim-Suozzi-23-head-cryogenically-frozen-reborn-cure-brain-cancer-found.html

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    26. Ken Alderton

      PhD student, former CEO

      In reply to Greg North

      I'll let you tell Peta Credlin that she is a a PA of sorts

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    27. Ken Alderton

      PhD student, former CEO

      In reply to Greg North

      No they are the Chinese one's doingthe talking.
      Now why am I not surprised you don'y want the evidence of things past to be preserved.
      I'll also let you tell Ms Credlin she was only along to take notes.

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    28. Ken Alderton

      PhD student, former CEO

      In reply to Greg North

      Either you don't know what this conversation has been about or you are being deliberately obtuse because it's getting a bit hot for the Dear Leader.
      It is about the inordinate amount of power and influence being wielded by someone who goy as many votes in the last election as I did - exactly zero.
      Now where do Thought Bubbles or devouring Leigh come into this?
      If this is minor or irrelevant, then don't waste any more of your time on it, please!!!

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    29. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Ken Alderton

      " Either you don't know what this conversation has been about or you are being deliberately obtuse because it's getting a bit hot for the Dear Leader.
      It is about the inordinate amount of power and influence being wielded by someone who goy as many votes in the last election as I did - exactly zero. "
      That's a classically aircrafted Ken comment, especially when you look at what the article is about:
      " former-minister-tells-bastard-rudd-to-go-now- "
      As for " Now where do Thought Bubbles or devouring Leigh come into this? "
      There is just the one Thought Bubbles bloke and neither Bubbles nor bloke is abbreviated for the other B reference.
      You did introduce a Lee Sayles yourself along with another B!
      I would not want you considering your input to be minor or irrelevant but seeing as it is, just forget you have seen this comment.

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    30. Ken Alderton

      PhD student, former CEO

      In reply to Greg North

      So you have no comment.
      I will have no trouble forgetting.

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  46. Anna Ross

    Healthcare professional

    The ALP is now mightily embarrassed by 2 former leaders they once tried to tell us were the best people to lead Australia: Latham and Rudd. Will the ALP pay for the by-election?

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  47. Michael Shand
    Michael Shand is a Friend of The Conversation.

    Software Tester

    How complicit were the media in the destablisation campaign run by rudd?

    how complicit is The Conversation?

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    1. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Michael Shand

      Ken... now that AM is on line and I have had a chance to read it all....and reconsider
      I no longer feel so "delighted",
      in fact I feel sorry and sad for staffers and MPs.
      It must be hard...just as it was hard for the KR staffers and MPs...
      Good on NR for saying as it was... wish it was not so personal.
      With regards to AM;
      MP's work have to be vetted by PM's office
      The appointment of staff have to be vetted by PM's office.
      Let the light shine into the corners!
      An example of how to turn an "adult government "
      into a kindergarten class.

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    2. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Michael Shand

      " How complicit were the media in the destablisation campaign run by rudd? "
      Michael, I suppose you could say they were very complicit in an open reporting kind of way.
      Without the media delving into what was going on, perhaps Julia would not have even had much of an idea unless Obama would have had the CIA briefing her.
      Given that there was always a lot of denial going on and the media was even accused of making things up, it is to the credit of those that did investigate some things and report on them that they stuck to their stories for the public to be kept appraised.

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    3. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Ella Miller

      Seems as though some people might have been getting a tad greedy!
      http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2013/s3871692.htm
      " TIM PALMER: Senior advisors in the Abbott Government are furious after being told by the Prime Minister's Chief of Staff they won't be getting a pay rise.

      That's despite their bosses receiving much larger salaries that come with moving from opposition into the ministry.

      Several Coalition staff members have told AM that it's another example of the power wielded from Tony Abbott's…

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    4. Michael Shand
      Michael Shand is a Friend of The Conversation.

      Software Tester

      In reply to Greg North

      We are talking about a destablisation campaign here

      so I think you completely missed the point, if rudd had been huffing and puffing and no one had listened to him.........it wouldn't have worked, ie. he wouldn't of destabilised anything

      However continuous reporting of how unstable the government is without identifying Rudd as the destabilising force is definitely being complicit - it is delivery exactly the message rudd wanted without blaming rudd

      Why is it that they are only reporting on how much of a bastard rudd was now? why is it that only now we are hearing that the whole force behind the destabilisation of labour was rudd?

      because the media were largely complicit in reporting rumours and heresay without doing investigating the source of this hearsay

      if you don't get it, you don't get it "But dey reported on it uhdurr"

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    5. Ella Miller

      retired

      In reply to Michael Shand

      Michael,
      how complicit were the media?

      They and the vested interest they represented hijacked the agenda .....

      so they have a lot to answer for. Or not as they have a friend in our PM.
      They along with the shocks mislead the voting public.
      As for the Conversation... I can't comment I was not aware of the Conversation at the time.
      cheers

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    6. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Michael Shand

      " and no one had listened to him.........it wouldn't have worked, ie. he wouldn't of destabilised anything "
      Michael, we all know that is not how the media work, they being like a cross between vultures and shark, likely to feed on oneanother if they think they can get a scoop.
      And of course we all know how there are leanings within the media and favorites.
      " Why is it that they are only reporting on how much of a bastard rudd was now? why is it that only now we are hearing that the whole force…

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    7. Robert Molyneux

      Citizen

      In reply to Michael Shand

      Michael,
      1. <Someone in power> says or does <something stupid>.
      2. <Someone not in power> says that <someone in power> said or did <something stupid>
      3. <Someone in the press corps> says that <someone not in power> says that <someone in power> said or did <something stupid>".
      You fill in the "<>".
      I agree that the press corps seems to be incapable of (a) asking politicians meaningful questions or (b) refusing to give them air space when they talk BS, but ultimately <someone in power> was responsible. Why not report Admiral Abbott as "Tony Abbott donned a high vis jacket today and visited another place"?.
      I agree that telling people about an opponent's secret statements and beliefs could be betraying a confidence. I agree that Julia might have been unsettled by KR muttering about some of the stupid things she did, but she was hardly a youngster at the time. How did all this "secret undermining" actually get out to the public?

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    8. Michael Shand
      Michael Shand is a Friend of The Conversation.

      Software Tester

      In reply to Greg North

      "they being like a cross between vultures and shark, likely to feed on oneanother " - except of course when its the complete opposite of this - if you don't understand this I would recomend reading Noam Chomsky's "Manufactured Consent"

      I think we have both made our case clear and we both disagree

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    9. Robert Molyneux

      Citizen

      In reply to Michael Shand

      Michael, I have noticed before that Ms Grattan did seem to dislike Julia.
      Personally, I noticed Julia's weird statement that "Now you are going to see the real Julia" which raised all sorts of trust issues about who she really was. The famous broken promise about carbon pricing did not phase me at all (and if you look at the full quote, even less) as it was / is very good policy.
      I blame the American billionaire lizard.

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    10. Michael Shand
      Michael Shand is a Friend of The Conversation.

      Software Tester

      In reply to Robert Molyneux

      that quote is a source of endless frustration isn't it

      The myth has grown so strong I fear it will never be acknowledged

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    11. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Robert Molyneux

      " I agree that telling people about an opponent's secret statements and beliefs could be betraying a confidence. "
      Robert, secrets!, secrets in politics!
      As soon as something is known which it will be as soon as you tell just one person, there'll be no secret!

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    12. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Michael Shand

      " "How did all this "secret undermining" actually get out to the public?"

      Michelle Grattan for a start "
      Oh come on Michael, Michelle is just one person in the media reporting events as they unfolded or what someone might have been saying about the less than secret undermining.
      How did Christopher Pyne have the inside info for instance/
      It could only have come from someone on the Rudd support team.
      And then of course if we go back far enough, it would have been someone in the ALP with the intent to harm that woulkd have been leaking to someone, there having been some names mentioned in despatches, not surprisingly, not to much heard of one particular commentator of late.

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    13. Robert Molyneux

      Citizen

      In reply to Michael Shand

      Michael,
      Do you have a link?
      The other quote to be remembered for ever comes from the Children Overboard nonsense, of a refugee man holding his child over his head, saying in excellent English "Please do not shoot at us, we have children onboard". Amazing that TV stations did not show this at the time.
      The Conversation should maintain a page of historical quotes.

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    14. Robert Molyneux

      Citizen

      In reply to Greg North

      Greg,
      See "Breaking News - Sex, Lies and the Murdoch Succession" by Paul Barry. There have been some very strange leaks of telephone conversations in the last few months where it would seem neither side would have released them.
      Has the American billionaire lizard made any comments about winning the election?

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    15. Michael Shand
      Michael Shand is a Friend of The Conversation.

      Software Tester

      In reply to Greg North

      Greg we have already agreed that we disagree, all this is going to be is us argueing back and forth.

      Lets end it on a good note

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    16. Michael Shand
      Michael Shand is a Friend of The Conversation.

      Software Tester

      In reply to Robert Molyneux

      From Greg "As soon as something is known which it will be as soon as you tell just one person, there'll be no secret!"

      And that's why the government going back to the howard era failed to keep the Five Eyes and NSA program secret......or wait? they did keep it secret, for almost a decade

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  48. Robert Molyneux

    Citizen

    For the record, this is the full speech by Nicola Roxon.
    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/nicola-roxons-john-button-memorial-lecture-2013-20131016-2vmyo.html
    This article by Michelle Grattan focuses on a very small part of Roxon's speech where she gave her personal opinion (easily dealt with as per my comment here about Rudd's staying in his elected position).
    It does Roxon a serious injustice by ignoring the ten serious points she made, in line with Senator John Button's honesty and depth.
    It smacks of serious mischief making by Grattan, trying to stir up trouble within the ALP, which must move ahead - including, taking account of Roxon's reasoned advice.

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    1. john davies
      john davies is a Friend of The Conversation.

      retired engineer

      In reply to Robert Molyneux

      A point I touched on in an earlier comment Robert, but you've provided substance!
      Yes indeed, mischief making from Michelle. Just like the Rudd- inspired and fed mischief making all through the Gillard period. The fact is many (most?) political journalists are players in the game, with their own favourites, hidden agenda and selective use of information to promote that agenda.

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  49. Alex Njoo

    Architect/academic (ret.)

    Notwithstanding the fact that those on the Left of politics are proned to public blood-letting, the kind of self-indulgent outbursts by Roxon et al are making Abbott look like the country's saviour. What is wrong with Laborites? Are they oblivious of their own political history?
    Our home-grown neo-cons are so much better at keeping their intra-party grievances under wraps. They're not only devious but politically smart. Any party that can win an election, aided and abbetted by a global media baron…

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