Hi Mellisa.
Good on you for getting in and having a go, more power to your arm.
Well done on knowing about the Cuban organoponicos as well, I'm impressed. Really I just wanted to say good luck and if you need any advice, I have heaps of experience and training in organics, horticulture and permaculture so email me if you have any problems need solving or questions answered. I did a blog for a while too but mine is more of an information/inspiration blog rather than my current activities. I wrote a piece a year ago about organoponicos, I hope you will read it sometime. Keep up the great work.

Ian, thanks for posting the links. Whilst Cuba is a great example of what can be done when a food crisis develops, the bleak alternative example is often forgotten. The other country that faced an energy and food crisis following the collapse of the Soviet Union was North Korea. Faced with the same issues, Korea allowed some 500,000 people to die of starvation.

The Spanish have a great saying to illustrate the essential nature of food; "The distance between civilisation and anarchy is seven meals."

Most Australians are oblivious to the fact that in every city and major town there is only two days worth of staples and 5 days worth of all food on the shelves. We are entirely dependent on centralised long chain distribution systems.

Have you observed communal behaviour when milk supply is disturbed? I doubt many homes would last the 5 days you note without chaos erupting. A $10 lettuce would seem cheap in such circumstances. Gardening is not only confidence building it is therapeutic.
I like Monty Don's observation of Cuban gardeninghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRz34Dee7XY

James

Ian Lowe has dealt with the physical attributes relating to food scarcity.

There is a growing and more pervasive problem emerging.

The issue is not scarcity as such, but the impact of market funds seeking a slice of the returns.

In Europe especially, food commodity prices are set by the market. Over recent years, hedge funds are now heavily 'investing' in food commodities to take a portion of the overall profits.

The net effect is that farmers fail to get the return being delivered by the market, and so choose to reinvest in alternate crops that give them a better yield. Often these alternate crops are for non-consumption - eg. biofuels.

This market manipulation is having the effect of diminishing supply and as a consequence forcing up prices for staples. An outcome is that governments are reducing food aid (typically a US phenomena for oversupply of US grain) meaning that poorer nations are not getting as much food.

Another outcome is that as domestic prices increase for staples, some food processors are relocating to 3rd world nations to produce there (esp. Kraft). One outcome is that these multinationals garner water supply at the expense of locals.

I could go on, but the point is made.

Cheers

You make a few really great points Bruce.

I too had some very pricey first specimens! And total no-grow disasters. It makes you appreciate that food growing is an actual skill and that some plants aren't worth the price. Happily, there are substitutions!

I have been wondering lately if we should require a "Licence to Lawn". When you see how much effort, water, pesticides and herbicides are devoted to our suburban love of lawn, an awful waste of resources and source of pollution for something that tastes so terrible!

Yes Tim, these are valid points that you have raised. There will be a need to train people and yes, organic pesticides are powerful chemicals from a natural source but powerful chemicals none the less. (They need to be, otherwise they wouldn't be effective.) A modified version of the Certificate level III or IV in horticulture would be one way to go, another would be to follow the Cuban example and set up shop-front one-stop information, training and supply resource centres for people to access as and when they need to.

Weeds are mostly introduced from overseas but a typical backyard can be a point from which weeds can escape and spread, yes. Once again, good quality training, advice and practical experience will overcome this problem. Once a person has been trained and has had enough practical experience, they could also take on the training role as well with the new apprentices (for lack of a better word) that opt to become an urban food producer.

I am proud to say that I know that we have some of the very best organic system pioneers and developers right here in Australia. David Holmgren and Bill Mollison developed the permaculture system, Esther Dean developed a method of no-dig raised bed organic growing that is the basis of the Cuban system, Murray Hallam has done fantastic work with aquaponics. We have a very good skill base to draw from to develop a workable system for urban agriculture and identify the training needs and even write the training manuals if needs be.

Yes, very true. Nothing worse that having people taking their advice from a TV show or the like, rather than undergo a reputable training program.

I also think that the idea of your own water will be needed, very good point. We were self sufficient on our farm and I think households would need to have their garden water in this form for it to work.

On the recycled waste fertiliser: this would work in the cities if they can remove the heavy metals and create a dry product. The trials that have been done in WA of Biosolids still can't give consistent nutrition (not a big deal in small plots as you over-fertilize in general anyway) and they don't remove heavy metals. The other issue was smell and fly breeding. A lot of work still to be done.

Ian, how about the over-fertilising issue and P runoff? Did the Cubans lay down base materials to stop nutrient runoff, or did they mediate breakdown so that more binding occurred with organic matter?

The irrigation system in the larger organoponicos was a drip line system, so run-off would only be an issue in heavy rain events. Solid organic fertilisers tend to be fairly slow release and nutrient contents are far lower by volume than chemical fertilisers, so it would require some heavy-duty effort to over-fertilise. Of course, concentrated soluble organic fertilizers and liquid organic fertilisers can create this problem but once again, it's a matter of training and experience. Some plants actually have reduced cropping rates from over-fertilising.
I am suprised you are not familiar with Neutrog products. Rapid Raiser is the product that utilises human waste from memory. Here's the breakdown:

Analysis (dry weight basis) %W/W
Nitrogen (N) as Organic 4.0
Phosphorus (P) as Citrate Soluble 2.5
Phosphorus (P) as Citrate Insoluble 0.5
Total Phosphorus (P) 3.0
Potassium (K) as Organic 1.5
Calcium (Ca) as Organic 7.0
Magnesium (Mg) as Organic 0.70
Sulphur (S) as Organic 2.0
Iron (Fe) as Organic 0.2
Zinc (Zn) as Organic 0.04
Copper (Cu) as Organic 0.0006
Manganese (Mn) as Organic 0.05
Water holding capacity 50 - 55%
Humic Acid 2 - 4%
Organic matter 55 - 60%

As you can see, the NPK ratio is 4:3:2 (not perfect but close) and pretty much all of the trace elements are present as well. This a dry pellet fertiliser that has been steam treated to kill any bacteria, pathogens and weed seeds and it has only minimal odour (not entirely unpleasant once you get used to it) and having used this product myself on a number of occasions, I can testify that it is very consistent as well. I'm not sure how they extract the heavy metals, sorry. But the product is certified by BFA (Biological Farmers of Australia) and they are very exacting in their certification process, so I am pretty sure it has been done.
Here's a link to their homepage:
http://www.neutrog.com.au/
Here's a link to BFA page:
http://www.bfa.com.au/

Tim there's actually some rather spiffy things you can do with sewerage at a reasonable scale - biogas being by far the most useful. I've seen dairy farms and feedlots running biogas plants - also piggeries, fishfarms and even schools. Villages work a treat.

After the fermentation process you end up with a rather useful set of fertiliser compounds but they must be composted before use. Probably limuited value in cities because of the diet/heavy metal/virus issues. Too much prozac in the wee.

Even our problems and waste can become an asset if we are thoughtful about it.

Tim, the raised beds can incorporate base materials such as cardboard and newspaper on sandy soils and this is just plain good sense to get the most bang for your buck as well as stopping the problem you speak of. Looking at the Cuban soils, they look pretty heavy in most of the shots so perhaps not but the no-dig raised bed method always did have a base layer because the concept was to turn any flat area, including a lawn or verge, into a weed free organic garden bed without turning a shovelfull of actual soil.
http://ianlowe.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/turn-lawn-into-potato-patch-no-digging.html
On reflection, more permanent beds on sandier soils will need a more lasting base but it still needs to breathe and allow some moisture through. Perhaps a woven mat of a plant fibre such as hemp or coir would be best as they are very slow to break down but allow the movement of (some) water and air, which helps keep the bed from going sour. In reality a raised bed is a large area aerobic composting bin and the last thing you want is for it to turn anaerobic as it smells and attracts insects.
http://ianlowe.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/basic-composting-turning-waste-into.html

Peter, at some point in the future, oil prices and increasing costs of production and transport will have a significant impact upon our food supplies. Also, if you are going to have a low carbon economy and really mean it, urban agriculture will probably be a part of the solution to achieving that.

If we take the Cuban example, the government there made some public spaces available in parks, car-parks, and gardens around public buildings. The work was/is done by volunteer members of co-operatives, who were at first working for a share of the produce but eventually ended up working for more than 5 times the minimum Cuban wage. Also, the Cuban government invested in developing the best organic practices and using neighbourhood shop-fronts to educate volunteers, supply seeds, seedlings, good quality organic fertilizers and most of the other needs of the fledgling organoponicos (organic food co-ops)

As for land values, how much value do you put on land over supplying food for a hungry population? It's a historical fact that our capital cities are built on some of the most fertile and productive land in the country (Perth and Sydney being the exceptions). There's not a lot we can do about that now but if we can utilise some of that land for food production we would really only be returning to our historical roots. Having said that, the method favoured in Cuba is based on a raised bed system that can be placed directly on a paved car-park if necessary. Also, urban agriculture can take many forms and could include architecturally designed buildings with terracing on each level and a sloping profile on the north-facing side where food can be grown by staff or residents to be harvested and utilised by the workers or residents of that particular building. It's not the most efficient use of vertical space as far as getting the most floorspace for your dollar but it can provide an incredible amount of sunny space for growing food. One other example from Cuba was the use of vacant space around factories and other industrial sites, with the food grown going to the works canteen first and excess going to market to help pay running costs.

Aquaponics is another form of organic based food production that produces fruit, vegetables and fish from a relatively small space, with the nutrient supply for the plants coming from the excrement of the fish. I have to take my hat off to Murray Hallam here, he has done some great work on aquaponics and you can find out more at this website:
http://www.ecofilms.com.au/
Here's a link to a piece I wrote about the Cuban Organoponicos as well, in case you missed it in my earlier post:
http://ianlowe.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/coping-with-food-crisis-cuban-style.html

I think the Cuban experience shows that this type of concept can be a big employer and can lift people out of poverty, if the government gets out of the way and facilitates real and positive changes to current policies.

This is only part of the picture. Out in the suburbs, people could start with their nature strip and garden, in much the same way as Costa is doing on the ABC show Gardening Australia and produce a few luxury foods such as fresh herbs, salad greens, tomatoes, chillies, aubergines, strawberries etc. (you get the picture, just think of your favourite but expensive veggie purchases) to supplement their diets, ease their food costs and enhance their lives, although I would personally recommended planting potatoes as the first crop on a nature strip, mainly because their roots will go deep and break up compacted soil (as well as producing a crop of staple vegetables).

As for why poorer people are not doing this already, some are but many don't understand how and that can make it cost prohibitive. Education and training are a part of the requirements to get them growing. Once you learn how to make raised beds, how to make compost and how to propagate plants, costs start to drop rapidly.
A side benefit of urban agriculture is reduced food waste going to landfill and heaps more on-the spot recycling (re-using really) of other materials that go to landfill at the moment.

I hope this has answered some of your questions.

Ian

Is that the same Cuba that the rest of the world knows?

I know the Cuba where the economy is a basket case.
A Cuba where there is no free press and criticising the government lands you in jail.
A Cuba where you cannot access the internet to read The Conversation.
A Cuba where individual initative is squashed by petty government officials and efficiency in any form is frowned apon.
A Cuba where most of the population dream of escaping to bete noire, America.
A Cuba where it's citizens cannot own their own land.

Your comment, "..can be a big employer and lift their people out of poverty" says it all. Cuban people live in poverty caused by their own government's corruption, ineptitude and poor governance.

Why not quote something that works, like England's allotments and spare us Cuba or North Korea or Russia fairy tales.

Thanks

Gerard Dean
Glen Iris

Spent a bit of time there Gerard? Or is this just what "everybody knows"? Know a bit of the history of the place? Why it's like it is?

No no no we have nothing to learn from China - they have nothing for us at all...Not Red China! .... nothing to learn from Chernobyl, or what even not to do.

Sometimes I wonder who really pulled down the Iron Curtain. Some seem to still have one.

Let us not learn from the USof A - where they still have death by jury... where they are about to make illegal immigrants legal!!! Oh no no no not Red America!!!

I'm willing to learn from anyone - ANYONE - who is doing something right ... and some of the things they have done in Cuba regarding urban farming are truly revolutionary. And it will change the politics of the country too I'd reckon. A more independent, productive people with a direct interest in growing food and selling it, will not forever put up with their second class citizenship.

Keep your eye out for a "Cuban Spring".

Mr Ormonde

Back to the old "Cold War" argument instead of arguing with facts. Can you tell the other contributors what I got wrong when describing Cuba. Has Cuba suddenly become a democracy or introduced a free press or disbanded the secret police or introduced fair laws to protect people's property and we didn't know it?

It doesn't matter how Cuba ended up being a hopeless basket case that treats its citizens like crap. Castro overthrew a corrupt, inept, anti-democratic dictator and ended up being a corrupt, inept, anti-democratic dictator.

The net result is that Cuban people, like millions of others in central and south America live in poverty under the dubious protection of the Catholic church and dream of emigrating to the United States with all of its warts.

What do you think a Cuban parent would choose given the chance:

- Stay in Cuba and grow food in the back yard to drag themselves out of poverty caused by their inept government
OR
- Fly to the USA and bring up their kids with plenty of food, the right to vote, the right to speak their mind, their right to education and the right to work hard and do well without a dickhead government official screwing you over.

When push comes to shove, a farmer on a tractor with diesel and inviolable land title to provide collateral for loans to purchase seed and fertilisers will outgrow all of the subsistence farmers and amateur vegetable growers and Cuban homeowners.

You might not like western industrial agriculture, I don't even like all of its aspects but without it, there would be mass starvation on a huge scale. And you know what, Obama would care, Fidel wouldn't give a toss.

Gerard Dean
Glen Iris

That's right Gerry ...how could anyone suffering under a undemocratic, inept, incompmetent etc etc etc tyrant possibly teach us anything about gardening?

Same witnh China innit ... Red China anyway ... all those poor oppressed downtrodden folks - what could they teach us about anything - what have we got to learn fromthem?

Some people Gerald live their entire lives as a rather confused jumble of prejudice and ignorance. Others try and see what's on offer.

Now as for your knowledge of global productivity in agriculture ... how about a source for your assertion that "when push comes to shove, a farmer on a tractor with diesel and inviolable land title to provide collateral for loans to purchase seed and fertilisers will outgrow all of the subsistence farmers and amateur vegetable growers and Cuban homeowners."

I don't know how much produce you manage to squeeze out there in Glen Iris but take away the diesel first up. Then take away the fertiliser. Then see how you get on. That's what happened in Cuba and why it's worth looking at. We might be able to learn something even from socialist cucumbers. undemocratic sprouts, and communist carrots. Silly rabbit.

Mr Ormonde

My name is not Gerry and I don't think that using "innit" to imply my education level is a suitable approach on the Conversation.

Now, back to the facts. And, strangley, we have a lot in common, both being farm boys way back when.

Firstly, I did not include China in my list of countries, because I admire the Chinese people clawing themselves out centuries of inept, corrupt government, be they the unelected emporers or the brutal, murderous and incompetent Mao. The economic miracle we are witnessing is not driven by planting a few carrots on the nature strip, it is a result of hard work and the use of western technologies such as tractors, ploughs, harvesters, fertilisers, chemicals, efficient transport and storage and the introduction of private enterprise and credit availability.

I take my hat off the the hard working Chinese.

There is a simple laboratory that illustrates my passage, "when push comes to shove, a farmer on a tractor with diesel and inviolable land title to provide collateral for loans to purchase seed and fertilisers will outgrow all of the subsistence farmers and amateur vegetable growers and Cuban homeowners."

The laboratory name - Zimbabwe. In 1980 Zimbabwe was the second largest African exporter of food and manufactures. It boasted the best educated black community in Africa as well as a life expecatancy approaching western standards.

Robert Mugabe has destroyed Zimbabwe. His murderous rule has turned Zimbabwe into an economic basket case which relies on foriegn aid to pay its teachers and doctors and nurses. He has destroyed the currency, the economy, rule of law, land title, the water supply system, the electrical supply system, road maintenance, rail maintenance. Zimbabwe's population has fallen 25% through death or emigration and the life expectancy has halved.

The major reason for the collapse was Mugabes defiance of his own laws and high court judgements by encouraging theappropriation of white owned commercial farms, in order to right the wrongs of the racist white past.

The prime farms went to Mugabe's cronies who had no interest in farming, because you know, it is bloody hard work. The poorer farms were divided between the.

The result: Western food production has been replaced by subsistance farming. Hand hoes have replaced tractors, girls carrying buckets have replaced electric pumps, high interest loan sharks have replaced bank credit, ambitious, hard working black farmers fall prey to capricious government extortion or criminals who do not fear the corrupt police force.

The outcome: Food output has collapsed. No food exports mean no foriegn exchange to buy medicine or educational supplies.

Mugabe's Zimbabwe shows what happens when you replace modern western food production with subsistance farming.

The result is mass starvation and reliance on Western charity.

I will repeat, I don't like every aspect of modern, western industrialised food production and I admire people who grow their own food in their back yard.

I do however contend that it is, unfortunately, the only way we are going to feed the world's exploding population.

Thank you, and don't call me a rabbit again. I shot rabbits from aged 7 through 16 for food or to put them out of their myxo hell.

Gerard Dean
Glen Iris

Gerard,

Firstly, I agree with you 150% about Mugabe. I have had a long association with that country and have several old mates who were conscientious objectors and pacifists during Smith's period.

I seriously suspect Mugabe has some sort of brain disorder. It appears he is grinding Zimbabwe back into some sort of pre-European, pre-colonial past ... a slow version of Pol Pot's year Zero. Quite mad and deeply deeply corrupt.

But what I'd be looking at in Zimbabwe is how the people are coping with inflation beyond light speed and a collapsing economy and society. It is not their fault that they live in this place, that they have a bad undemocratic government. But they try and survive. They do clever things to survive.

I must admit I find it curious that you would find things to admire in the hard-working Chinese who are seemingly destined to suffer under endless tyrants and yet you regard the similarly hard working efforts of the Cuban people as unworthy of consideration.

Because they have a bad government?

Strewth Gerald if we are to dismiss any lessons offered by every country that has a "bad government" it will be a pretty empty offering. Some are worse than others but the views you express - the anger and denunciation of obvious ratbags - seem curiously Cold War and antique. Very old coals this stuff Gerald.

When have you ever read an article or comment saying how the North Koreans had never had it so good?

No one here is holding up Cuba a a model society, or Raoul Castro as some sort of political idol... this is about how the people cope with dramatic catastrophic change.... the near total disappearance of fuel, fertiliser and income that occurred with the collapse of the USSR. These "ideological" differences and denunciations have a historical interest but - when one looks at China and its generation of millionaires, or Burma with its recent economic surge - really, seriously, who is not a capitalist?

I do not know how people are surviving in North Korea. I suspect no one does - bit I suspect it is horrific. Nor do I know what people are growing and where to cope with the collapse of a whole host of countries. How do the people of Iraq or Afghanistan actually get enough to eat?

See you do not answer my question - just suppose for an instant that there is no diesel and there are no fertilisers... suddenly the tractor and all the laser levelled irrigation equipment is as useful as an anchor on a surfboard. Now this is what has happened in Cuba. It is what is happening in Zimbabwe and much much worse.

If you think about the future like I do - that the bubble will one day burst - maybe slowly - maybe one bubble at a time... then it is important to understand how to cope with adverse change ... too look at what is necessary rather than what is currently accepted as say "infinite and cheap".

I find myself wondering what would happen in say Glen Iris if suddenly there was no fuel - no worries- we walk to the shops and back - but the shops are empty. Much more significant than no airconditioning or heating.

Just something to think about. They're pretty clever those Cubans. And they've actually improved a swag of national medical and health indicators because of the better diet. Interesting.

David, that wouldn't work.

Disease and pests would flourish under those conditions. Fruit fly is a classic example of infestation in urban landscapes. Weeds are being introduced daily by urban backyards, this is where the majority of agricultural weed species have come from.

Also you are talking about mechanical and chemical control. Farmers do this already. You still need chemicals, even if you want to call acids vinegar, EDTA bug control, etc, etc, then you need to understand that people need training in how to use these correctly. Applying oils and acids to plants isn't the best idea unless you know what they do to the plant and not just the pest. At least farm chemicals have this on the label and can be understood for safety limits.

I disagree with the argument that it is safer to use synthetic poisons to grow urban food. Toxic safety limits are created and defined by a very small group of people with vested interest and influence. I think the the laws and social customs that make it ok to spay toxic chemicals on food need to be changed. There are many environmental and human health related consequences that are not presently being taken into account.

Barry, high density housing, or at least higher density housing is a part of the solution really, not a barrier. This doesn't mean that housing needs to be apartment towers with no open ground except the streets, far from it. Preferably, somewhat smaller house sizes than the current trends, along with clever landscaping incorporating shared gardens and even rooftop gardens, can all become productive zones. Even existing neighbourhoods with some space in each yard could maximise the land use value by agreeing to remove inner boundary fences and incorporating all the back gardens into one large cooperative space. Another idea would be for councils to plant nut trees as street trees, such as almonds or walnuts, instead of purely ornamental species. It's about utilising the maximum possible space, not just horizontally but vertically as well. This requires a bit of application of permaculture principals but it's all do-able.

I have an above-average size block and I'm managing to pack a fair bit of growing in the space available. But there are so many residences with just tiny courtyards or hardly any outdoor space. You can pack them densely and people do some amazing stuff in small spaces but a small courtyard can never make a big impact on your food requirements.

The real point here is that "the solution" - if the problem is "population growth" - appears to be to pack more people in. It's completely pointless and benefits no-one when we should be focusing on policies to do something about population growth in the first place, thus avoiding the pressures on development. And yes, there are solutions.

Gerard, a large proportion of our food is imported from areas of the world with low standards of production and political security for guaranteed supply. These imports tend to be vegetables that could be grown locally. In fact they probably were grown in the spots where houses are now.

In terms of what it will contribute, having the pressure taken off the supply chain for the imported vegetables would help greatly. The real question is about the cost. A farmer would be able to produce the same food at a fraction of the cost and inputs because they are pros at it. So economically it may not make sense, but not everything is about economics.

Hello Tim

Agreed. You make good points, as you always do.

I actually don't like the "realistic" food production scenario I described. It was my way of highlighting how the bulk of our food is produced and the energy and resources it consumes.

It is frustrating to see imported food pushed off our shelves, especially the US oranges that have been picked by low cost, illegal labour.

Growing our own food in the back yard, is a win all the way (excluding heavy chemical use). It cuts out the energy usage, it connects us with where food comes from and it feels good. Although I am not sure that my neighbours would be as keen to hear my father is in town with a sharp knife and an old ewe, intent on using my back yard as a slaughter house.

However, as the earth's population explodes, the only way we will be able to produce enough food is pump more non-renewable energy, chemicals and fertiliser into the soil. I don't like it, but it is what is going to happen unfortunately.

I always read your thoughtful comments.

Gerard Dean
Glen Iris

Peter,
I like your response to this excellent article. In Victorian schools vegetable gardening is promoted by the Stephanie Alexander's Kitchen Garden Foundation http://www.kitchengardenfoundation.org.au/about-the-program
This is not a new idea as schools have had gardening promotions from time to time however it is an important thing to do for the reasons you enumerate.
It just illustrates that each generation has to be introduced to the obvious in novel ways.

Bruce, the Kitchen Garden Foundation (my employer) operates in over 250 schools in all Australian states and territories.

Thank you I'm glad for the kids. Years ago rural kids got similar training with the Young Farmers program. It is not new but it is valuable. It does illustrate that each generation has to be reintroduced to the goodness of growing your own. (I'm sure you must enjoy your work!)

Peter, give me a pack of lettuce seeds (forget it I will buy my own), give me some land and give me some organic "waste" and I will grow you a hundred lettuces for $10. That is just the first crop, let me save the seed (sorry, no F1 hybrids or GM crops allowed) and I will grow you lettuces for as long as I am capable of doing the physical work required, with minimal further input costs. You are going to have to trust me on this, once the required skill-set is learned the costs of production will drop dramatically.

Lettuces aren't a great return anyway. Two fruit trees in a backyard could produce a couple of tonne of food every year once they reach maturity. Are we starting to see the potential now?

I'm locked in a war of wills with a herd of miscreant snails. I'm most loathe to use those awful baits and am relying on wandering about like a loon with a torch crushing hundreds a night. But I'd be reckoning my broccoli would be a totally absurb financial investment - especially if I clipped an hourly wage rate onto it.

But that's not what it is about is it? It's about struggling against adversity and through sheer grit, determination and rat cunning overcoming the slimy shelled foe. I shall have my broccoli and it will be all the sweeter for the struggle.

I often think that with 100 skillful Vietnamese or Thai farmers we could transform the way Sydney eats and buys its vegetables in a few short years. But instead the old established market gardens are being buried under freeways and housing sprawl and we fly our carrots in from the Congo.

Silly isn't it?

Sit down and have a cup of coffee, Peter. Visit your local coffee store with a bucket first for a coffee. Then, ask politely and collect the grounds that normally go to landfill. When you get home spread the grounds around the broccoli. Not as much fun as "crunching the little beggars" but if you have enough coffee you can stay up all night and watch what happens.

Bruce is this just an adaptation of the strategy I described above or is the caffeine in the grounds acting as a poison?

All excellent ideas - several of which I've tried ... they didn't like XXXX for some reason - but I'll try them on some Cooper's Pale Ale and we'll see how we go - actually I think the burying the jar might help a lot.

I've put sawdust paths in around my beds and this has greatly reduced the slimy swarm's predations. But I have just started unleashing the chooks into the vegetable garden and I reckon the Ladies Auxiliary will have these fellas on the back foot. We shall see.

Argh ... started raining - gotta get some wood ... many thanks for the tips. Last resort will be eating them - but I feel I should seeing as I'm feeding the blighters.

Ian,
As you say this is an adaptation of the idea you have suggested but I don't profess to know the science. If this topic is expanded like some others a boffin will add a scientific response next week and six others will dispute it in week 3. Over to the scientists in the room.

Yes - exciting things are happening with small-scale food production in Britain Mark.

Just think what we could achieve with OUR climate!