In one respect, science and religion have been largely reconciled since the 19th century, when geologists such as Charles Lyell recognised the evidence for a very old Earth. Within a few decades, most mainstream religious denominations accepted this view as well.
But, much to the consternation of scientists, young-Earth creationism, which holds Earth is only about 6,000 years old, continues to be promoted in some quarters, and remains very popular with the public, especially in the United States.
A 2010 Gallup poll found 40% of Americans believe that “God created humans in their present form within the last 10,000 years”.
A 2009 poll found 39% agreed that “God created the universe, the earth, the sun, moon, stars, plants, animals and the first two people within the past 10,000 years".
(By contrast, and more representative of OECD countries, only about half as many Canadians espouse such beliefs.)
Such notions, of course, differ vastly to the findings of modern science, which pegs the age of the earth at 4.56 billion years, and the age of the universe at 13.75 billion years.
While there are numerous experimental methods used to determine geologic ages, the most frequently employed technique is radiometric dating, based on measurements of various radioactive isotopes in rocks.
The phenomenon of radioactivity is rooted in the fundamental laws of physics and follows simple mathematical formulae, taught to all calculus students.
Dating schemes based on rates of radioactivity have been refined and scrutinised over several decades, and the latest high-tech equipment permits reliable results to be obtained even with microscopic rock samples.
Radiometric dating is self-checking, because the data (after certain preliminary calculations are made) are fitted to a straight line (called an isochron) by means of standard linear regression methods of statistics.
The slope of the line determines the age of the rock, and the closeness of fit is a measure of the statistical reliability of this conclusion. The graphic below gives the general idea, and more technical detail can be found here.

Reliability of radiometric dating
So are radiometric methods foolproof? As with any experimental procedure in any field of science, measurements are subject to certain “glitches” and “anomalies”, as noted in the literature.
The overall reliability of radiometric dating was addressed in some detail in a recent book by Brent Dalrymple, an expert in the field.
He argues the few instances in which radiometric dating has produced anomalous results “may be due to laboratory errors (mistakes happen), unrecognised geologic factors (nature sometimes fools us), or misapplication of the techniques (no-one’s perfect)”.
Dalrymple also notes scientists do not rely solely on the self-checking nature of radiometric dating to confirm their results. They repeat their measurements to eliminate laboratory error, and wherever possible they apply multiple dating procedures to the same rock sample.
As he notes: “if two or more radiometric clocks based on different elements and running at different rates give the same age, that’s powerful evidence that the ages are probably correct.”
Along this line, the physicist Roger Wiens asks those who are sceptical of radiometric dating to consider that “all of the different dating methods agree … a great majority of the time” that Earth is billions of years old.
The scientific disagreements highlighted by sceptics are “usually close to the margin of error … a few percent, not orders of magnitude!”
Radioactive isotopes and the age of Earth
Until recently, only large scientific laboratories could afford mass spectrometers, the principal tool used to measure dates of rock samples.
But recently the prices of these devices have dropped to levels that even amateur meteorite hunters and others can afford. Used mass spectrometers are currently available at eBay for as little as US$99.
Some people have suggested the most hardcore flat-Earth believers did not give up their fight until they could hold a GPS receiver in their hand that gave their latitude-longitude position.
Will sceptics of old-Earth geology wait until mass spectrometers are in every home before finally conceding that the earth is more than 6,000 years old?
The burden of proof
Radiometric dating, as with any other experimental discipline, is subject to a variety of errors, ranging from human error to rare anomalies resulting from highly unusual natural circumstances. But while errors and anomalies can occur, the burden of proof is not on scientists to fully account for each and every error.
The burden is on sceptics to explain why tens of thousands of other carefully measured ages are all internally and externally consistent. Indeed, there is no known physical phenomenon that can yield consistent results in many thousands of measurements, year after year, except one: the isotopic decay in these geological specimens, measured by radiometric dating.
As biologist Kenneth Miller observed: “The consistency of [radiometric] data … is nothing short of stunning.”
A version of this article first appeared on Math Drudge.
Peter Ormonde
Peter Ormonde is a Friend of The Conversation.
Farmer
"So are radiometric methods foolproof?"
Nothing - no science whatsoever - is proof against the calibre of fools produced by the US edjerkashun system and the prevailing theocracy.
Interesting piece.
Dave McRae
logged in via Twitter
Nice writeup
I loved the stories in Bill Bryson's "A short history of nearly everything"
The story of on Clair Patterson's measurements of the Earth's age is rivetting - and still stands today.
Also how Lord Kelvin tried so hard, and his methods sound. But without knowledge of nuclear processes he was always doomed.
Ian Musgrave
Senior lecturer in Pharmacology at University of Adelaide
Even Lord Kelvins dates were way, way older than 10,000 years.
Colin MacGillivray
Retired architect
Pretty sure that anyone who believes the earth is 10,000 years old wouldn't bother to read this essay. They think a set of books written two thousand years ago must be better source of the truth than modern science.
Is there any research on how many Aussies believe in the 10,000 year old planet?
Peter Ormonde
Peter Ormonde is a Friend of The Conversation.
Farmer
Colin...
Here you go:
A 2009 poll showed that almost a quarter of Australians believe "the biblical account of human origins" over the Darwinian account. 42 percent of Australians believe in a "wholly scientific" explanation for the origins of life, while 32 percent believe in an evolutionary process "guided by God".
A 2010 survey conducted by Auspoll and the Australian Academy of Science found that 79% of Australians believe in evolution (71% believe it is currently occurring, 8% believe in evolution but do not think it is currently occurring), 11% were not sure and 10% stated they do not believe in evolution.
Still we're far more rational than the yanks I guess. Is that an adequate benchmark? Probably not. Fundamentalists don't read much at all I suspect.
AhmadC
logged in via Twitter
No good scientist should believe in the Darwinian evolutionary theory, its not religion its science, they should better word their questions in the Australian census. I support the Darwinian evolutionary theory. The amount of evidence is overwhelming.
Byron Smith
PhD candidate in Christian Ethics at University of Edinburgh
"Belief" is a word with multiple uses, including the holding of an opinion based on reasonable evidence. Judges and juries "believe" certain truths on the balance of evidence. I don't think it is inherently problematic to speak of "believing" mainstream scientific positions, even if we acknowledge that in some contexts the term is used to describe holding opinions in the absence of evidence (or even in the face of strong opposing evidence).
Colin MacGillivray
Retired architect
Peter
Thanks for the info, good to know Aussies aren't as thick as yanks. It's hard to believe the only super power in the world has a such a large minority of idiots.
stib
logged in via Twitter
As an argument against the idea that god made the world as described in Genesis it is unfortunately doomed to fail. Because the counter argument is that god is infallible, so obviously when he put the fossils in the ground, and created cosmic background radiation he likewise calibrated the radioactivity of the isotopes in the rocks so they all would give these consistent results.
Why? Just to fuck with us, I guess.
There's no point trying to argue reasonably or logically with religion.
Byron Smith
PhD candidate in Christian Ethics at University of Edinburgh
The reading of Genesis you describe is a minority position amongst Christians. It doesn't particularly help discussion to lump all of "religion" into a single box.
Byron Smith
PhD candidate in Christian Ethics at University of Edinburgh
"But, much to the consternation of scientists, young-Earth creationism, which holds Earth is only about 6,000 years old, continues to be promoted"
Much to the consternation of plenty of theologians too! Thanks for this article.
Ian Musgrave
Senior lecturer in Pharmacology at University of Adelaide
Minority amongst Australian and British Chrsitain, not amongst American Christians, who outnumber the UK+Aus Christians
Byron Smith
PhD candidate in Christian Ethics at University of Edinburgh
Granted, though this is an Australian site, so I had that context in mind. Even in the US, given a sizeable minority who embrace a scientific age for the Earth, lumping all of religion into the same box anti-intellectual box is too simplistic.
Byron Smith
PhD candidate in Christian Ethics at University of Edinburgh
"same box anti-intellectual box" --> "same anti-intellectual box"
When will we be able to edit comments?
Ian Musgrave
Senior lecturer in Pharmacology at University of Adelaide
You have never had the joy of having Australian creationist John McKay visit your university, or had to try and teach science to the fundamentalist majority in the outer suburbs.
Byron Smith
PhD candidate in Christian Ethics at University of Edinburgh
No, I have not had that joy, and admit I do not relish the prospect. But John McKay is also a cause of significant frustration amongst many Christians, who do not wish for us to all be tarred with his brush. My point is not that anti-intellectual Christians do not exist, but that the use of sweeping generalisations is unhelpful.
Ian Musgrave
Senior lecturer in Pharmacology at University of Adelaide
It would be good on occasion for theologians to speak out about Mr. McKay, we scientists have to do all the heavy lifting when he is around. In fact generally, when anti-evolutionists start using bad Biblical exegesis, in general (with the occasional exception) the silence from theologians is profound.
Paul Regis
Business Analyst
You're right. I suppose science is unified by an underlying discipline, which increases the likelihood of its proponents at least following some unifying rules in its practice & debate. Quack scientists are fairly easily discredited by their peers. But with theology, it sometimes seems anyone can practice it. There's usually $ around to help those people continue their message, even if they talk rubbish or are unwilling to listen to the arguments. Like someone else said, its important not to tar everyone with the same brush. Perhaps the debate has to continue on 2 levels?
Byron Smith
PhD candidate in Christian Ethics at University of Edinburgh
You're right. More open rejection of anti-science by theologians and exegetes would be a healthy thing. It does happen, just not often enough or publicly enough. There are plenty of Christians who are embarrassed by young earthers but who don't want to start a fight.
Dave Caves
Programmer/Analyst
I think that everyone would agree with the age of the earth. The defense is that though the earth is 10,000 years old everything was "created with age" so by our calculations it is showing with what age it was created. One better way to calculate the earths age is to examin the moon not by dating the moon with the same method here because you have the same problem yes the moon was made old but measure it by both the distance the moon travels away from earth and the amount of dust settled on the moon and you'll find a much younger moon and a much younger earth than what measurements can be taken on decay.
Dave Caves
Programmer/Analyst
Also measurements on the rotational decline of earth and also of earths magnetic field would also suggest a younger earth. I find all of this very interesting.
Ian Musgrave
Senior lecturer in Pharmacology at University of Adelaide
Age of the Moon from Moon dust/magnetic fileds, it's still old
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/magfields.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-youngearth.html (scroll down for this one)
Natalie Bennett
Lecturer
The claim that "The consistency of [radiometric] data … is nothing short of stunning" is curious in light of recent research which shows that radioactive decay rates may be influenced by variable solar neutrino emissions.
Ian Musgrave
Senior lecturer in Pharmacology at University of Adelaide
Even if the alleged variation due to solar neutrinos is confirmed, this is a very small effect (on the order of 10^-3), and completely compatible with different decay systems being consistent with each other
Ian Musgrave
Senior lecturer in Pharmacology at University of Adelaide
..or maybe not
http://arxiv.org/abs/1202.3662
Roger Powell
Engineer (Retired)
So we have two competing theories: (a) that the entire Universe is less than 10,000 years old; and (b) that the Earth is 4.56 billion years old and the universe is 13.75 billion years old.
The difference between the two is that one has been evaluated by the scientific peer review process and the other has been plucked from a book of fairy tales.
If a team of the world's leading 'young Earth' theologians spent a decade or two writing a serious scientific paper proposing their biblical hypothesis and published it for evaluation and peer review, their paper would be dismissed as the weakest theory of all time.
As Prof. Dawkins once asked, "“What has 'theology' ever said that is of the smallest use to anybody? When has 'theology' ever said anything that is demonstrably true and is not obvious? What makes you think that 'theology' is a subject at all?”
Byron Smith
PhD candidate in Christian Ethics at University of Edinburgh
"Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology"
- Terry Eagleton, 2006.
Paul Regis
Business Analyst
Prof. Dawkins comments from his frame of reference, but that does not make him an expert on theology, nor put him in a trusted position to discredit it. Yet it's reasonably easy to discredit his wisdom. Much of it breaks the fundamental laws of physics and pays very subjective glances to mathematics. If it cannot stand on its own legs I suspect it stands on very little at all.
Chris O'Neill
Telecommunications Engineer
What does theology have to do with physics?
Jeremy Garnett
Citizen of Terra
We all believe in something, even if in a lack of something. Science is the search for answers, the search for truth, and encourages the belief that there are answers to find. If many religions, the belief is in a set of answers already found and the search is for the correct interpretation or matrix of those answers.
It is my opinion that the study of science is as much a belief structure as the religious the search for a deity. Each engenders belief. Thus it follows that if theology is one method of defining of the rules of religion, physics is, in parallel, one method of defining the rules of science.
Paul Regis
Business Analyst
I said that Dawkins breaks the laws of physics. But you ask for more detail... so examine the laws of entropy and discover that "processes reduce the state of order of the initial systems, and therefore entropy is an expression of disorder or randomness" (Wikipedia has much more info). Entropy is a fundamental principle in physics. So, we have a universe that *must* naturally tend towards randomness, yet life exists. There is order, when there should be chaos. I'm not talking about evolution here…
Read moreIan Musgrave
Senior lecturer in Pharmacology at University of Adelaide
Life doesn't disobey the laws of thermodynamics (otherwise planst would not grow, for one thing). See these articles explaining why the thermodynamics argument is wrong
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html#thermo
In general, I recommend the talk Origins Archive for all your general evolution questions
http://www.talkorigins.org/
Ian Musgrave
Senior lecturer in Pharmacology at University of Adelaide
So says someone who has not actually read Dawkinsl.
Byron Smith
PhD candidate in Christian Ethics at University of Edinburgh
Untrue. I respect his writings on evolutionary biology, but unfortunately he is no expert on theology, as is painfully clear from his recent forays into a field in which he has little background.
Byron Smith
PhD candidate in Christian Ethics at University of Edinburgh
Dr Musgrave, can I respectfully ask if you have any background in academic theology in order to be able to evaluate the relative merits of the insights of Prof Dawkins in the field?
Ian Musgrave
Senior lecturer in Pharmacology at University of Adelaide
While no academic theologian myself (one of my best friends and coauthours is a philosopher and trained theologian, and my mother-in-law a trained academic theologian), I do have the benefit of actually reading what Dawkins writes, and he makes it very clear that he is not critiquing the sophisticated theology, but the kinds of theology most ordinary people, not academic theologians, hold.
These folks hold on truck with the kind of modern theology as described in the award winning "Catching Water In a Net".
Having debated evangelical and fundamentalist anti-evolutionists, I can tell you he his pretty spot on.
Byron Smith
PhD candidate in Christian Ethics at University of Edinburgh
Fair enough. He does occasionally admit that. But when he says (and is widely quoted as saying) “What has 'theology' ever said that is of the smallest use to anybody? When has 'theology' ever said anything that is demonstrably true and is not obvious? What makes you think that 'theology' is a subject at all?”, then a misleading meme is being perpetuated. I could offer a sizeable list of historical developments and achievements in which theology has played a significant or even critical role.
Paul Regis
Business Analyst
Theists agree that God is beyond time. God is seen as an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent being. He dwells within and beyond space time. How can our time be the same as His? Perhaps the world was created 10000 God-years ago? And perhaps that duration is billions of years in my time?
I can’t imagine that a Being who can create worlds would confine Himself to a human notion of time. That is oversimplifying God for the wrong purpose. The biblical account of creation served to set a framework, but I doubt it is absolute. That’s why I think the earth is more than 10000 years old, though that hardly compromises my belief in God.
Roger Powell
Engineer (Retired)
If god "dwells within and beyond space time" that would make him pretty much undetectable.
Now that is consistent with scientific research.
Paul Regis
Business Analyst
Good thought, but undetectability does not guarantee non-existence.
Roger Powell
Engineer (Retired)
True in theory. However, in day-to-day life, the absence of any credible evidence whatsoever is an extremely powerful argument in favour of non-existence. There is no reason not to also apply that to extraordinary religious claims.
Your other argument, that the author did not provide a definition of the meaning of 'year' in his book, is true. So a 'god-year' seems to equal to 456,000 Earth years
That's solved everything then, the bible is proved right after all! We just have to delve "deep" enough into it's hidden meaning (or make it up as we go).
By the way, by your reckoning, Methusela didn't just live to 900 years but 410 million years.
Paul Regis
Business Analyst
I was simply talking about time before humans were around to perceive its actual passing. I never claimed I solved anything. I suspect it is you who is making up your rebuttal as you go. The fact that we didn't see the Higgs Boson in 1901 doesn't mean it didn't exist back then, if it even exists now. The evidence may point to it, but we haven't seen it. Yet many believe and will try and detect it using the right equipment (they hope) in the right context (they hope).
Read moreSo, using scientific means…
Peter Ormonde
Peter Ormonde is a Friend of The Conversation.
Farmer
G'day, again ...don't mean to dominate the discussion but I suspect that arguing the toss about this or that creation myth - let alone theology as a whole - is perhaps a rather unproductive path to follow. For starters it assumes that those holding a fundamentalist/literalist view would be open to rational argument, facts, evidence or reasonable explanation. That will not shift them.
For mine the critical issue is why such a large proportion would choose a faith based explanation of reality…
Read moreJohn Holmes
Agronomist - semi retired consultant
I often challenge Young Earth types with the question that "As all Christians believe that God created, the debate amongst Christians should be How was it done?" As created beings, can we see his/her fingerprints when we come across them? The ID people suggest that they can, but their work is subject to the this problem as is any other intelligent created being It also should be subject to peer review.
Joel Mayes
Bicycle Mechanic
Skeptics is the wrong word to use here, Skeptics look at empirical evidence and form opinions, and the empirical evidence is not in favour of young earth creationism.
Denialist is probably the word you are after.
Karl Kunker
Science Instructor @ Mekeel Christian Academy
There are two grossly under reported assumptions in the use of all half-life measurements.
The first being there is no way of knowing any kind of original ratio of the various parent isotopes and daughter isotopes that should be expected from the various types of mixtures of magma from various locations across the planet or across time.
For the earth to be as old as claimed one must basically assume that very low amounts of stable lead were in an origional sample but all kinds of other radioisotpes…
Read morePaul Willis
Director, RiAus
Actually it was James Hutton who realisd the earth was very old, a full half century before Lyell.
Tas Walker
Scientist and Writer
Yes, Lyell built on the assumptions of Hutton. But Hutton overlooked one crucial fact when he visited Hadrians Wall, Siccar Point and mused about the age of the earth. http://biblicalgeology.net/blog/james-hutton-hadrians-wall-siccar-point/
Tas Walker
Scientist and Writer
We need to realise that there is no scientific intrument that can measure age. All ages are based on measurements of a physical property (not time) as it exists in the present (e.g. an isotopic ratio). The calculated age requires assumptions to be made about the value of the property in the past and about the history of the sample. All quoted ages need to be interpreted, which is a standard part of the geological method. It's a formal way of changing assumptions to make wildly differing 'ages' agree. For examples of how this works go to creation.com and search for "Radioactive dating anomalies". For a detailed response to Roger Weins article quoted above go to the same site and search for "Christian response to radiometric dating".
Peter Ormonde
Peter Ormonde is a Friend of The Conversation.
Farmer
G'day Tas,
Had a look at your site...It was Noye's flood you reckon that explains why Hadrian's wall hadn't weathered like one might expect. How big's a cubit actually?
First things first ... which version of the bible you using? I like the Greek one myself - the one used by the Orthodoxers ... nice old and direct translation and not quite as many kings doing the final subedit. What sort of scientist might you be then? Just so we can establish the ground on which we'll have a discussion... we can begin by looking at some other creation myths (all purportedly direct quotes from god) and why you find this particular set so believable.
Ian Musgrave
Senior lecturer in Pharmacology at University of Adelaide
"search for "Christian response to radiometric dating"."
Paging Byron Smith, Byron Smith to the white courtesy phone please.
Byron Smith
PhD candidate in Christian Ethics at University of Edinburgh
*Sigh.* Yes, I know.
Such pieces (which, as I'm sure you're all too aware, pop up faster than they can be adequately answered) require both scientific and theological/exegetical responses. They are bad science and bad exegesis.
For instance, "The problem is that the Bible plainly says that the world was created by God in six days."
Read moreThe problem is that "plainly" in this sentence obscures the interpretive process that occurs in reading all texts, especially ones that are distant from us in culture…
Tas Walker
Scientist and Writer
It's not just Genesis 1. That has to be read in context with the rest of Genesis and the rest of the Bible. http://creation.com/god-science-reading-bible
Most of Genesis has the form of history, not poetry.
Luke in ch 3 provides a genealogy all the way back to Adam, indicating he took it as history. The same can be said for other NT writers.
Discussion on the Church Fathers is here: http://creation.com/john-dickson-vs-genesis There is a long tradition of accepting a young earth.
The pioneer geologist Nicolas Steno accepted a young earth.
The secular-atheistic worldview requires an earth that is billions of years old if it is to sound half plausible that everything made itself by natural processes.
The Bible reveals a God who acts in history and provides documentary evidence of a young earth.
Peter Ormonde
Peter Ormonde is a Friend of The Conversation.
Farmer
"The Bible reveals a God who acts in history and provides documentary evidence of a young earth."
Evidence? No, it is a story Tas, an explanation, a document written by men, re-written by emperors, popes and kings ...but not, of itself, evidence. All the actual evidence - the observed, examined and forensic facts - the science - runs against this story. OK for shepherds, for peasants, for the illiterate and the ignorant. A fairy tale, a myth, a collection of campfire anecdotes told by folks…
Read moreTas Walker
Scientist and Writer
Interesting admission: "He argues the few instances in which radiometric dating has produced anomalous results “may be due to laboratory errors (mistakes happen), unrecognised geologic factors (nature sometimes fools us), or misapplication of the techniques (no-one’s perfect)”."
So, how do we know the date is anomalous? What do we calibrate the technique against?
The impression is given that geological age is measured objectively by radioactive dating. The above admission demonstrates this is not so. If the date is wrong the result is discarded and a different sample or a different method is used until a number is obtained that is acceptable. See http://creation.com/how-dating-methods-work
Peter Ormonde
Peter Ormonde is a Friend of The Conversation.
Farmer
Tas,
Please answer my questions above so I can couch a suitable argument in the most appropriate theological or scientific terms.
I'm not sure what you are arguing here - that because radiometric dating is imprecise we should seek guidance from the Lord and the Great Fludde ...throw this rubbish science away and return to faith?
Come on out where we can see you.