For some time now, all the departments of health in Australia have based their policy on male circumcision on reviews of the scientific literature carried out periodically by the Royal Australasian College of Physicians (RACP). But the lack of a strong basis on evidence means the government should reconsider this reliance.
An RACP policy statement in 2004 argued that the available evidence didn’t justify infant male circumcision being carried out to prevent illness. But when a withering critique of that 2004 policy was published in the Australia and New Zealand Journal of Public Health in 2006, the authors of the 2004 report didn’t even attempt to defend their work. This is generally considered an ominous sign in science.
In 2010, the RACP published its most recent policy Circumcision of infant males. Again, the policy argued that the evidence didn’t justify infant male circumcision being carried out to prevent illness. But the 2010 policy statement was not quite as strongly opposed to infant circumcision as the 2004 policy had been.
We have just published a comprehensive evaluation of the 2010 RACP policy in the College’s Internal Medicine Journal. All nine co-authors of the paper, including ourselves, are public health and public policy experts.
Our critique concludes that the RACP policy is not a fair and balanced representation of the literature on male circumcision because it is not based on research evidence. Instead, the RACP policy ignores, downplays, obfuscates or misrepresents the considerable body of research that shows circumcising males offers strong protection against a number of diseases.
Benefits include reduced childhood urinary tract infections, which are common, painful and often cause permanent kidney damage. Male circumcision also provides some protection against many common, as well as not so common, sexually transmitted infections, including the epidemic of cancer-causing types of human papillomavirus and genital herpes, genital ulcer disease and HIV, among others.
Circumcision also helps protect against penile candidiasis (thrush), inflammatory skin conditions and inferior penile hygiene. It can help those with physical problems, such as a tight foreskin that interferes with passing urine, and an inability to return the foreskin after it is retracted. It virtually eliminates the risk of penile cancer that occurs in one in 1,000 uncircumcised males over their lifetime. And there may also be some reduction in the risk of prostate cancer.
Women with circumcised male partners are protected to varying degrees against cancer-causing human papillomavirus infection, genital herpes, bacterial vaginosis (Gardneralla), and cervical cancer. Although the RACP’s policy statement claims otherwise, complications of infant male circumcision are uncommon and virtually all minor and easily treated.
The RACP policy statement claims that “the foreskin has a functional role” and “is a primary sensory part of the penis”. However, extensive high quality research, including randomised controlled trials, show no adverse effect on sexual function, sensitivity, sensation or satisfaction.
Instead of citing good research, such as large meta-analyses and randomised trials, the RACP policy selectively cites a poor quality study that has been criticised. The RACP’s claim – without support from a literature-based risk-benefit analysis – that the currently available evidence does “not warrant routine infant circumcision in Australia and New Zealand” is misleading.
A risk-benefit analysis by a number of us who also wrote the Internal Medicine Journal article was published recently in the Open Journal of Preventive Medicine. We found that the benefits of male circumcision were considerable and exceeded risks by a large margin; the risks are virtually all minor, while conditions prevented are often serious.
The RACP policy fails to explain that circumcising boys in the neonatal period using local anaesthesia maximises benefits and safety, is convenient and offers cost savings.
Our Internal Medicine Journal article concludes that because the RACP’s policy “is not a fair and balanced representation of the current literature it should not be used to guide policy.” We recommend that an extensive, comprehensive, balanced review of the scientific literature and a risk-benefit analysis should be conducted to formulate policy, in the interests of public health and individual well-being.
Such a review was recently undertaken by the Circumcision Foundation of Australia. Health bodies, governments, doctors and the general public should use this evidence-based policy statement as a reliable guide to decision-making and health policy development.
Facing rising health costs, the federal government has recently increased its emphasis on prevention. Infant male circumcision is a good example of how difficult it can be to implement preventative measures. The process starts with basing policy fairly and squarely on evidence and continues with overcoming obstruction from groups opposed to policy based on evidence. Watch this space.
Comments on this article are now closed.
Seamus Gardiner
Citizen
Many of the diseases that circumcision prevent or reduce are easily treatable, and certainly the foreskin can be removed at any age, so Is the evidence sufficient to recommend that all infants have the procedure routinely? If not, which infants should have a procedure that protects against treatable disease?
If infants should have the procedure undertaken should not all current uncircumcised males have the procedure?
If the risk from the procedure is low compared to the risk of disease do the authors recommend any other excisions routinely be carried on healthy tissue in infants in order to prevent disease?
Do the authors have any bias in this matter? For example, any religious or cultural affiliation?
Brian J. Morris
Professor of Molecular Medical Science at University of Sydney
1. The best time to circumcise is the first few weeks of life. To read the very good reasons for this, and why circumcision later presents barriers, read the article in BMC Pediatrics "A 'snip' in time: what is the best age to circumcise". This and the Circumcision Foundation of Australia's evidence-based policy statement on infant circumcision can be downloaded for free by going to: http://www.circumcisionaustralia.org
2. Neither of us are religious. We are both atheists. Our view of the world is based on scientific evidence. We consider that evidence, and only evidence, is what should be used to formulate health policy. We recommend that the RACP use this approach in the formulation of infant circumcision policy.
Joseph Lewis
logged in via Facebook
1. What happens if the child is not circumcised?
Answer: Absolutely nothing. The child's life continues, as it does for 80% of the rest of the world's men who aren't circumcised. Only 20% of the world's male population, or so, are circumcised, and it's mostly for traditional or religious reasons. Very few men ever need surgery.
I just think it's so brazen of you, Brian Morris, to keep quoting yourself as a resource; the article you mention, is written by none other than yourself. The so-called…
Read moreFranny Intactivist Lactivist Max
logged in via Facebook
The best time to circumcise? NEVER. Not one national medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision. How is it that you, Brian Morris, who is neither pediatrician, urologist, nor any other type of medical practitioner keep advocating the mutilation of baby boys? And why such barbarity best done in the first few weeks of life? So the baby cannot oppose it, of course. Fact is, 10 out of 10 babies oppose circumcision!
Ah, foreskin envy. It was too much for Brian Morris to…
Read moreMark Lyndon
undisclosed
Most pediatricians seem to believe that the best time to circumcise is never.
It's certainly not the first few weeks though:
"Complications including meatal deformities, meatal stenosis, adhesions and infection were more frequent and more significant in the neonatal circumcision group."
•Machmouchi M, Alkhotani A. Is neonatal circumcision judicious? Eur J Pediatr Surg 2007;17:266-9.
Your paper doesn't even mention meatal stenosis btw, and none of your papers seem even to consider the possibility that the foreskin might actually be of value.
John Bennett
logged in via Facebook
"Many of the diseases that circumcision prevent or reduce are easily treatable"
For example UTIs where circumcision gives a vaccination like protection?
As a nurse educator you are presumably aware that parents don't tend to take bub for medical attention until they can identify a definite medical basis for their upset such as becoming febrile and by then there is kidney damage in about 50% of cases. So bub is in agony until he gets febrile and permanent damage but it is okay because it is…
Read moreSeamus Gardiner
Citizen
John,
You raise some interesting points. You state:
'As a nurse educator you are presumably aware ...etc'
as a nurse educator I teach my students 4 ethical principles of healthcare: beneficence, non-maleficence, autonomy and justice, in the absence of strong evidence of public health gain from the procedure (which other contributors have thoroughly demonstrated) it can be argued that circumcision does not meet the test of beneficence and autonomy.
The analogy to vaccination is a strawman argument as vaccination has demonstrable benefits to the individual and to the population.
Circumcision is not a public healthcare issue and it will only become one when it can be demonstrated that the risk outweighs the harms in the australian population. In the interim it remains cosmetic surgery imposed by cultural imperative on a non-consenting individual.
Mark Amey
logged in via Facebook
According to this logical, baby girls should have bilateral mastectomies, because the lifetime risk of breast cancer is around 1 in 11!
Michael Hay
retired
Franny, you write a lot of nonsense. You (and perhaps Brian) are remote from the subject and your thoughts are solely your own. I am male; I am circumcised; my sons were circumcised; the matter of disease prevention or male bonding has nothing to do with circumcision. My father had me circumcised because a circumcised penis is more easily kept clean than an uncircumcised penis. So, I gave my sons the benefit of cleanliness. Perhaps you could indulge in a close study of the penis - find two boys and really try to get some knowledge. Foreskin envy, indeed! You are well away from reality.
Sue Ieraci
Public hospital clinician
There is something fundamentally different between circumcision and other generalised preventative public health measures: its origin was religious/cultural, and the "public health" justification came after.
I can think of no other body part which we remove pre-emptively to prevent disease occurring later (pehaps this was once done for teeth, but no longer).
If there had never been a cohort of people who were religiously/culturally deprived of their foreskins as a matter of course, would we have invented it?
Seamus Gardiner
Citizen
Sue i agree - I admit this is not an issue that I feel deeply attached to (!) but it is puzzling that this has ever become a preventative health question when it is so clearly linked to cultural/religious norms.
It's been some years since the enlightenment must we still hold on to stone age cultural practices?
James Walker
logged in via Facebook
where to begin?
- bronze age, not stone age.
- one of a whole raft of health measures to deal with the rampant diseases that swept the fertile crescent.
- Do you refuse to wash your hands because that has a religious history?
Refusing to do something because it has proven worthwhile for thousands of years is crazy.
Sue Ieraci
Public hospital clinician
The Fertile Crescent was rampant with sexually-transmitted diseases? I guess "fertile" is a misnomer then...
Seamus Gardiner
Citizen
James,
The point is: is it worthwhile now?
Should we worship the sun because our ancestors did so?
Philip Dowling
IT teacher
Of course, Sean, your much beloved Age of Enlightenment saw the introduction of a novel non-optional form of radical surgery for adults by the French.
Given the choice between this and circumcision I know which i would choose.
Incidentally some statements here seem show lack of awareness of the geographical extent of circumcision.
http://www.rcpe.ac.uk/journal/issue/journal_35_3/doyle_circumcision.pdf
Seamus Gardiner
Citizen
Reductio ad absurdum, Philip, or just absurd? Of course, by association with the guillotine you've made scientific enquiry obsolete. Amazing.
Shondolyn Gibson
logged in via Facebook
No, it's not even fully developed in the first weeks of life. It's possible to cut off too much and the person who owns the penis won't realize this until adolescence. It's not unreasonable for the person who owns it to decide if they wish to be cut. It's not worth it to cut off a part of the body that can be washed in a few seconds.
Philip Dowling
IT teacher
History does not indicate endless progress. Often the baby has been thrown out with the bath water.
Circumcision Resources
logged in via Facebook
Actually, as a parent of four boys with all their body parts, I can attest to the fact that it is easier to keep an intact penis clean, especially when the child is in diapers.
This is exactly what Franny had to say, and what she wrote makes a lot of sense! Circumcised men are the biggest driving force behind circumcision sons! The reason? God forbid that your son should have something "more" than you, especially on his phallic organ...It all boils down to foreskin envy. Nobody wants to have a smaller penis; a circumcised penis is indeed made smaller.
Circumcision Resources
logged in via Facebook
You might be atheists. But nothing changes the fact that you both own mutilated (circumcised) penises, and want to push that mutilation on other victims. That is a conflict of interest! Just like a smoker who encourages a non-smoker to go ahead and "have just one". Brian Morris, you have made some ridiculous announcement that every male should be circumcised!
Circumcision Resources
logged in via Facebook
Actually, that is something that Brian Morris advocates: that all men be circumcised.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdGbXdEo93U&feature=player_embedded
http://www.circleaks.org/index.php?title=Brian_J._Morris#cite_note-sundaynightcirc-5
Brian, we have you covered!
Sue Ieraci
Public hospital clinician
Bath water...water.... that's the solution!
Homeopathic circumcision. Guaranteed to have no side effects!
Hugh Sturgess
Student
"Do the authors have any bias in this matter? For example, any religious or cultural affiliation?"
In May of this year, both authors wrote (separate) opinion pieces on this topic for the Sydney Morning Herald:
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/the-question/should-elective-circumcision-continue-to-be-covered-by-medicare-20120511-1yhqb.html
By Prof. Morris's own admission, he is the "scientific adviser" to the Circumcision Foundation of Australia. That he didn't think to mention that anywhere…
Read moreRodger Kensen
Systems Analyst
I'm with you Michael, had the snip with no religious involvement whatsoever. Will have the same thing done if I have a son. Of course I no longer wander naked with my todger hanging out chasing animals for food - I have underpants which perform the same job as foreskin quite admirably.
I can only imagine that this conversation has been hijacked by a particular activist group with a penchant for the extra bit of pointless skin to be kept.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
Why not let your son decide when he is old enough to make the choice for himself?
Rodger Kensen
Systems Analyst
It's largely because I've never considered this to be a major issue. The effect of not having my foreskin has had no discernible impact on my life, albeit in preventing the conditions as mentioned above and being easier to clean. That said I am happy that it was done.
I rate the impact of circumcision on my life as less than that of having a bad hair cut. In fact my choice of hair cuts in the 80's had a far more long term impact than the trimming of a small piece of skin.
So I guess I am surprised that people feel so strongly on this issue.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
Bad haircut? Er, hair regrows.
Unless there is a medical reason, why shouldn't your son get to choose? He might want to be like his old man or not.
Rodger Kensen
Systems Analyst
Hair doesn't regrow for me any more, at least not since the mid 90's. At least not on my head.
I see circumcision as no different from having my tonsils removed, or for that matter having an appendectomy. They are all removing body parts that have long since proven surplus to requirements and if anything can prove to be a liability.
Chris O'Neill
Telecommunications Engineer
"They are all removing body parts that have long since proven surplus to requirements and if anything can prove to be a liability."
Exactly. Prostate glands become surplus to requirements and become a potential liability. Therefore they should be removed at the appropriate age.
Chris O'Neill
Telecommunications Engineer
"Prostate glands become surplus to requirements and become a potential liability. Therefore they should be removed at the appropriate age."
The obvious choice of appropriate age is when he's produced his last child.
Seamus Gardiner
Citizen
Rodger,
Can't say i feel deeply about the subject either but how you or I feel about it isn't the point. The authors have asserted their case from a medical perspective. The procedure is performed in medical clinics or hospitals and is subject to medical ethics. The subject is highly contentious from an ethical perspective as it breaches the ethical principles of autonomy and beneficence, let alone the ethics of removing healthy tissue without clinical justification.
The argument from social or cultural preference is separate to the clinical ethics argument.
Michael Glass
Teacher
The difference between having tonsils, adenoids, appendix or wisdom teeth out and circumcision is that these body parts are only removed if they give trouble. Otherwise they are left in place. In many countries, foreskins are left in place without ill effect, and when the fashion for circumcision came to Australia and then receded it had no measurable effect on male health. The foreskin mightn't be needed, but neither is its removal, so it might as well be left in place.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
Oh I get it because you are bald, you can justify to yourself, no choice for your son. No doubt you want someone in your image, just wait till he reaches his teens you're in for a bumpy ride.
Back on topic.
I would like to see research on communities where the foreskin is left intact, a daily regime of hygiene followed and the rate of STD's. I believe a clean and available water supply benefits an entire community in far more ways than lopping off the foreskin of healthy babies.
Rodger Kensen
Systems Analyst
You seem to read my posts with a distinct bent, I was merely pointing out that your statement that "hair grows back" is not 100% correct. Baldness however has absolutely no bearing on the decision to circumcise my son, should we be lucky enough to have a second child and in the case that child is male. Let me assure you that your posts have done more to cement my belief that it is a good idea than they have to discourage the thought.
For the record, I have friends who didn't choose circumcision and did have issues because of it. I don't remember the pain, if any, experienced by the procedure. My friends however distinctly remember the screams of pain their child suffered.
Chris O'Neill
Telecommunications Engineer
"should we be lucky enough to have a second child"
You will, of course, be getting your prostate gland removed after having your second child (assuming you decide to have no more). The benefits of this are far greater than circumcision.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
"You seem to read my posts with a distinct bent"
True
You are more concerned with your biases than you are about giving your son, should you have one, a choice.
As for your friends having difficulties and the screams of there child as a result. I have some questions:
1. Reason for circumcision? 2. Was it medically necessary?
and if so,
3. Why was anaesthetic not used?
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
Apologies for typo "screams of there child"
should read: screams of their child.
Rodger Kensen
Systems Analyst
You've mentioned this 3 times, either you are trying to make a point or you own shares in a prostate gland removal service.
It's not very clear which.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
The reason I asked 3 times whether your preference to have your son circumcised is you have thus far not given a straight answer.
You are simply trying to send topic off on a tangent in order to avoid explaining why your as yet unborn son should be circumcised.
Nor have you answered my questions regarding the issues your friends encountered when they had their children circumcised. Why did their children have to suffer at all?
I will take your question regarding shares in prostate gland removal as a deliberate attempt to shift focus on discussion at hand.
Rodger Kensen
Systems Analyst
Dianna, I was replying to Chris O' Neill who has now posted 3 times "You will, of course, be getting your prostate gland removed" which has done nothing but confuse me. At the top of each post are the words, "In reply to..." which indicates who the poster is replying to.
As for "Nor have you answered my questions regarding the issues your friends encountered when they had their children circumcised."
I was going to respond to your earlier thread, where I wrote "I have friends who didn't choose…
Read moreDianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
I have not been following the exchanges between you and Chris. Apologies for this oversight.
Nor have I expressed that I regard "consider... circumcision some sort of mutilation."
I don't.
In fact I have stated repeatedly (you have not read through all my posts either - snap) that there are good reasons for circumcision primarily medical, but also an adult male can choose for himself if he would like his foreskin removed.
Not so babies.
I freely admit my bias regarding people who will not give straight answers to straight forward questions.
Again, why do you not want to give your (future) son the freedom to choose for himself if he wants a circumcision?
A perfectly civil question in light of the topic.
Rodger Kensen
Systems Analyst
My original response still holds true.
"It's largely because I've never considered this to be a major issue. The effect of not having my foreskin has had no discernible impact on my life, albeit in preventing the conditions as mentioned above and being easier to clean."
As someone else has posted, circumcised people tend to get their kids circumcised. While non-circumcised people don't. This indicates to me that personal experience often determines the decision. That holds true in my case.
And If my son asks one day, why I did it. I'll tell him that his chances of receiving oral sex are higher with a circumcised penis. Can't see any male of any sexual persuasion unhappy with that logic.
Whats more I didn't want him to remember the experience like he would if it happened as an adult.
Chris O'Neill
Telecommunications Engineer
Rodger Kensen: "either you are trying to make a point or you own shares in a prostate gland removal service"
I didn't realize you weren't getting the point so I'll try again. Prostate Cancer caused 4.4% of Australian male deaths in 2010. If those men had had their prostate glands removed by an early enough age, about 45-50, then very, very few of them would have been killed by Prostate Cancer.
Applying the logic that you use with the claim that Circumcision is preventative surgery, we should also apply Prostatectomy as preventative surgery. After all, preventative Prostatectomy would be far more successful at lowering death rates than Circumcision.
So if Circumcision is worth doing, then Prostatectomy is much more worth doing.
And no, I don't have any shares in any Prostatectomy service. Prostatectomies are done by surgeons who are usually self-employed and if they do operate within a company then such companies are normally private.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
Now a bit of truth from you.
The chances of your son getting oral sex is in direct proportion to his health and cleanliness - not whether he has a foreskin. Having experienced both uncircumcised and circumcised men, I will pick the healthy clean male any time - would also like to add that a lack of foreskin is a little bit less to play with...
;)
Thank you for your honesty that your reasons for not giving your son a choice about his appearance is all about your ego and not about considering how your son may feel.
If and when you have a son. Controlling much?
Leigh Costin
Consultant
I'm just pleased they don't make the rulings retrospective.
Franny Intactivist Lactivist Max
logged in via Facebook
Maybe that ruling isn't. Hopefully others will be!
Chris van den Bergen
OHS Consultant
"Benefits include reduced childhood urinary tract infections, which are common, painful and often cause permanent kidney damage."
That seems fair enough.
"Male circumcision also provides some protection against many common, as well as not so common, sexually transmitted infections, including the epidemic of cancer-causing types of human papillomavirus and genital herpes, genital ulcer disease and HIV, among others."
Are there a lot of infants having sex? Seems like an issue in itself.
John Coochey
Mr
Is it not strange that the western country with the highest rate of HIV also has the highest rate of male circumcision? I wonder what would be the response if we had an article advocating female circumcision (not to be confused with excision)?
Jude Williams
Retired and still curious
I'm so glad to see this report. So many mothers are treated as though they have a psychiatric illness when they request circumcision for their sons. These decisions should be about choice
John Coochey
Mr
Yes, the patients' choice once they achieve majority!
Joseph Lewis
logged in via Facebook
Judy, without medical or clinical indication, how is it that a doctor can even be performing surgery on healthy, non-consenting children, let alone be giving his parents any kind of a "choice?"
What other procedures should doctors be expected based on parental whim, and not on medical necessity? I'm afraid circumcision is the only exception. In debate terms, this is called "special pleading."
John Coochey
Mr
Do you really expect us to believe that there are 100,000 cases of penile cancer in Australia in any one year?
John Smith
writer
Stop trying to spruik the 'benefits' of mutilation.
Did you know that many clincial studies have shown that people who have both feet amputated at birth never develop athelete's foot?
That's the level of the desperation of your argument.
Joseph Lewis
logged in via Facebook
"For some time now, all the departments of health in Australia have based their policy on male circumcision on reviews of the scientific literature carried out periodically by the Royal Australasian College of Physicians (RACP). But the lack of a strong basis on evidence means the government should reconsider this reliance."
Says who? Who says the basis is "weak?" We'll wait and see...
"An RACP policy statement in 2004 argued that the available evidence didn’t justify infant male circumcision…
Read moreChris Booker
Research scientist
Oh no, Brian Morris on circumcision again. It's particularly displeasing that the editors of The Conversation have allowed this article to go ahead. This kind of article wouldn't be accepted in a medical journal, and it wouldn't be accepted because it presents a distorted, biased view of the medical literature. In the business it's known as 'cherry-picking'.
For example, Brain states:
Read more"An RACP policy statement in 2004 argued that the available evidence didn’t justify infant male circumcision…
Chris Booker
Research scientist
*They are clearly very biased....
Joseph Lewis
logged in via Facebook
Perhaps the Conversation got a little compensation from Brian and his circumcision club?
John Bennett
logged in via Facebook
"Oh no, Brian Morris on circumcision again. It's particularly displeasing that the editors of The Conversation have allowed this article to go ahead. This kind of article wouldn't be accepted in a medical journal"
I thought it was basically a rehash of something they recently did in a medical journal. But I agree that these types of places shouldn't do these types of articles. It is an invitation to a tiny minority of people misguidedly obsessed with ending this area of preventative medicine. They seem to be continually hunting the web for the opportunity to flood these things with comments.
"He is clearly very biased on this issue and not one who should be authoring an 'informed opinion' article on a site like this."
Like those who are very biased in favour of vaccination he is biased based on an evidence based scientific perspective. Nothing wrong with that.
Chris Booker
Research scientist
While we obviously agree that there are dangers in posting articles like this in a public 'news' site, I'll have to respond to your other comments - simply because, I actually work in evidence-based medicine.
One of things that makes this article by Morris and Wodak so outrageous is that it claims to be promoting an 'evidence-based' approach to male circumcision but completely violates the fundamental basis of what evidence-based medicine is. In fact, their use of the term 'evidence-based medicine…
Read moreJohn Nicol
logged in via Facebook
Chris,
I am amazed that you can refer to yourself as if you bwere an "evidence-based" scientist", yet:
1. Your first statements in your comments imply that "this article" should not have been published - in other words you would arbitrarily stifle such discussion on this topic. This is the sign of a very biased attitude indeed, not one ahich depends on evidence.
2. You criticise the article as no being evidence nased, yet the authors quote findings from what are apparently publications in the open literature. For your part you have not presented one single piece of evidence or rewsearch which supports your cliaim.
I am not an advocate one way or another, but I believe there is need for research analysis of this topic, particularly with the much freer sexual exchange of desease which exists in our current promiscuous society.
John Nicol
Seamus Gardiner
Citizen
John,
Read morei can't speak for Chris but I take issue with some of your comments:
In particular point 2 of your reply to chris you state that the article is evidence based. It may be so, but all the article states is that there is some positive health outcomes to circumcision. The article does not give sufficient evidence to state that there is a case to circumcise all boys as a preventative health measure. If there is insufficient evidence to circumcise all boys why is there sufficient evidence to…
John Nicol
logged in via Facebook
Thanks for your response Sean (Parker). However, it is one thing for you and Chris to make criticisms of the article and what approach to circumcision it is promoting, but quite another to suggest it should not have been published!
To argue along these lines is to support the gagging of free speech and opinion, not just circumcision!! BTW I am still searching for any reference to other published work from Chris!.
In an earlier comment Chris made the comment that this would not have been…
Read moreSeamus Gardiner
Citizen
Yeah fair enough,
Read moreI'm happy to be corrected on the free speech issue. I guess the dangers (that i see) of miscontruing this as a valid preventative health statement is balanced by the free and vigorous commentary that follows, everyone is of course free to make up their own mind.
This is an interesting article in that it 'begs the question'; that is, the justification for the procedure that has 'preventative health value' is never actually made. Perhaps the author's argument should go the other…
John Coochey
Mr
So presumably you would justify an anti semitic or article or one denying the Armenian holocaust on free speech grounds? Perhaps some comments are so stupid they should not be dignified with a reply
Chris Booker
Research scientist
John,
Sean has already covered the important points, especially that it's one thing to show a benefit (for example, lower UTIs in circumcised males) and another for that to be sufficient to justify widespread use of circumcision as a preventive medicine. In response to your other comments:
I wasn't trying to suggest that the right to free speech should be gagged, nor to put across some kind of 'academic superiority' spin by saying this should be discussed in medical journals but not in a public…
Read moreJohn Nicol
logged in via Facebook
I am interested to observe, John Coochey, that you are unable to distiquish between a discussion on what may be a public health issue, and one which involves very dramatic moral, racist, and murder issues. which clearly define the holocaust and antesemetic issues.
However, each of these which was being discussed perhaps in terms of how the world might ensure that they never happened again, could well be acceptable issues. The question of being appropriate or otherwise lies entirely in the author's approach.
The recent slaying in Sweden has been discussed here with sensitivity and academic interest previously without crossing any socially accepted boundaries so it is a bit ordinary to suggest that bthese other issues could not be treated here in a similar manner. I am not sure that there have not already been articles on them.
John Nicol
John Nicol
logged in via Facebook
I take your point, Chris. Perhaps others in the appropriate medical field will write a balancing article - which will not be so one sided. I am not qualified to comment at all on this issue, but do feel that from the range of articles of all kinds and prejudices which one finds on this forum, suggestions that one article or another should not have been allowed on, strikes me as a form of censorship.
I did once sit through a paper on the value of circumcision, at a course on "Lasers in Medicine and Surgery" at the Harvard medical School in Boston. I was attending as a laser physicist, not as a medical person!!
John Nicol
John Coochey
Mr
And your point precisely? That circumcision is an assault on the rights of the child be if male of female I would have thought a moral issue.
Joseph Lewis
logged in via Facebook
The standard of care for therapeutic surgery requires the medical benefits of the surgery to far outweigh the medical risks and harms, or for the surgery to correct a congenital abnormality. Unnecessarily invasive procedures should not be used where alternative, less invasive techniques, are equally efficient and available. It is unethical and inappropriate to perform surgery for therapeutic reasons where medical research has shown there to be other techniques to be at least as effective and less invasive.
Joseph Lewis
logged in via Facebook
The trend of opinion on routine male circumcision is overwhelmingly negative in industrialized nations. No respected medical board in the world recommends circumcision for infants, not even in the name of HIV prevention. They must all point to the risks, and they must all state that there is no convincing evidence that the benefits outweigh these risks. To do otherwise would be to take an unfounded position against the best medical authorities of the West. It is remarkable that Brian Morris thinks he and his circumcision club actually think themselves to be above the RACP.
Kerri Worthington
housekeeper
I agree with much of what's already been said against penile mutilation without consent.
In addition, claims that circumcision protects a male from getting or transmitting certain diseases invites irresponsible sexual behaviour. And I just bet their female partners will be blamed when some of the snipped inevitably do get these diseases.
Also, it "helps protect against inferior penile hygiene" ???? How about parents simply teaching their intact sons to gently pull back their foreskins and WASH? It's really not difficult and far superior to snipping off a few centimetres from their penises.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
"How about parents simply teaching their intact sons to gently pull back their foreskins and WASH? It's really not difficult and far superior to snipping off a few centimetres from their penises."
I have repeatedly been making the same point all through this thread - apparently the choice is circumcise all baby boys whether they need it or not. And abuse anyone who suggests otherwise.
Or, not circumcising but ridiculing anyone with the temerity to suggest basic hygiene - go figure.
Are there any studies on whether there is a reduction in STD's if men wash properly?
Mark Lyndon
undisclosed
Since most of the men that made the RACP's policy on male circumcision will be circumcised themselves, why would they be biased against circumcision though?
It's not just the RACP that disagree with Professor Morris anyway:
Canadian Paediatric Society
http://www.cps.ca/english/statements/fn/fn96-01.htm
"Recommendation: Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed."
http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/pregnancy&babies/circumcision.htm
Read more"Circumcision is a 'non-therapeutic' procedure…
Jen Bl
logged in via Facebook
Author: Brian Morris, member of the Gilgal Society. That should tell you all you need to know about this article before even reading this. This professor has no business encouraging this blatant human rights violation and has no business spreading lies. He feeds off of your misperceptions. Be smarter than listening to him- do your own research. You will quickly realize it is not necessary and all the reasons cited by Brian Morris is just wrong. Also be aware of the pro-circ sources you view...watch out for the Gilgal Society because Brian Morris is behind it.
---Mark---
logged in via Twitter
I must admit, I clicked on the authors citation of what was referred to as "high quality research". I quickly realized the irony in doing so. I'm sorry, but seeing a website (belonging to one of the author's, Prof. Brian Morris) which hosts a link for "Circumcision humor" is one, not appropriate, and two, enough for anyone (who is respectful) to discredit the entire article. It's just plain weird.
Regardless of this, any of the "benefits" that are listed cannot justify forcing a permanent, irreversible surgical procedure on a healthy infant or young boy. The real issue lies within the medical community and individuals having respect for medical ethics, autonomy and human rights. Human rights are absolute no one should ever forget that including these author's.
Gil Hardwick
Anthropologist
Brian and Alex, sorry but I don't think you have handled this at all well, especially with your obsessing over government policy rather than on actual risk, here in Australia, to Australian boys.
In your paper, for example, you argue that UTI rates in uncircumcised males are 1-4% compared with 0.1-0.2% in circumcised boys, yet you fail to disclosed which boys, in what demographic cohort or SES status, beyond citing UK and US studies. That's not evidence of cause, merely correlation. By the same…
Read moreDeborah Oberon
Marketing Manager
I have to say I'm really quite astonished this article has been included in The Conversation. How on earth do these arguments have any credibility? What about teaching parents to teach their un-mutilated sons how to keep their penises clean? I wonder what illnesses and diseases can be avoided by female circumcision?
I really thought The Conversation had a higher standard than this.
Riddley Walker
.
I am circumcised, and have been very happy with it.
Circumcision Resources
logged in via Facebook
You are happy with it because you have NO CLUE what you are missing!
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
Simply teach our sons to pull back their foreskins and wash.
Unless there are problems with the foreskin, for example, it cannot be pulled back from the glans affecting urination or erections, there is no need for circumcision.
Jude Williams
Retired and still curious
Pulling back foreskins is not necessary. As a Brisbane paediatric surgeon used to teach, foreskins retract when they're ready. It's like expecting 5 year old females to menstruate. Foreskins are quite able to look after themselves.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
Apologies for not being clearer - of course it is only necessary to clean under the foreskin when it can be comfortably pulled back.
I was not suggesting they be forced. And stand by my opinion supporting cleanliness for the following reasons:
"Without regular cleaning, a build-up of a whitish-yellow substance known as ‘smegma’ can occur under the foreskin."
This is a very nasty substance to wind up in any person's orifices.
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Foreskin_care?open
I am sure, as a responsible paediatric surgeon, you would advise all of the care outlined in the above link.
Cheers
Jude Williams
Retired and still curious
"Smegma is probably the most misunderstood, most unjustifiably maligned substance in nature. Smegma is clean, not dirty, and is beneficial and necessary. It moisturizes the glans and keeps it smooth, soft, and supple. Its antibacterial and antiviral properties keep the penis clean and healthy. All mammals produce smegma. Thomas J. Ritter, MD [co-author of Say No to Circumcision] underscored its importance when he commented, 'The animal kingdom would probably cease to exist without smegma.'" ("Where Is My Foreskin? The Case Against Circumcision," by Paul M. Fleiss, MD, Mothering, Winter 1997)
http://www.foreskin.org/smegma.htm
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
The accumulation of dead skin cells, ejaculate and with the natural secretions of the sebaceous glands make for a rather interesting cocktail. One which is not necessary - I completely disagree with your article on this as it can lead to worse than just a rather unappealing image.
I am not an advocate of over-washing, BTW. However to leave this mix under one's foreskin is not at all considerate towards one's sexual partner - at the very least it can simply make one's penis quite smelly due to lack of aeration. At worst can harbour transmissible infections.
Nor am I an advocate of circumcision of all boys unless medically necessary (if you had bothered to read my original post). Instead you chose to react negatively to what remains an issue of contention between many medical practitioners.
No one is forcing you personally to wash your penis, nor is anyone forcing potential sexual partners to accept your penis in all its natural glory.
Mark Lyndon
undisclosed
Women produce more smegma than men though, and it's harder for them to keep their private parts clean, but we wouldn't cut parts off baby girls to make it easier.
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
There is no excuse for ignorance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulva
Circumcision Resources
logged in via Facebook
Women have a hell of a lot more smegma than men!
Mark Lyndon
logged in via Facebook
You're quite right, but that doesn't change the fact that women produce more smegma than men.
From your link:
"Smegma is a white substance formed from a combination of dead cells, skin oils, moisture and naturally occurring bacteria, that forms in mammalian genitalia. In females it collects around the clitoris and labial folds."
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
For chrissakes!
Parents, please teach your boys to pull back their foreskins (when old enough) and wash and your daughters to properly clean between the labial folds.
Circumcision Resources
logged in via Facebook
Exactly what I said: "Women have a hell of a lot more smegma than men!" Do we go about circumcising girls because of that? No! There is NO REASON to go about circumcising boys either!
As for the foreskin and pulling it back, it should only be the penis owner to ever pull pack the foreskin, nobody else. If he does not pull it back, neither should you! As a matter of fact, hands off his bits!
We do not go around poking our fingers into a girl's vagina to "clean" either. We just clean the outside, between any folds, as best as possible.
Intact; don't retract. Only clean what is seen. If he can pee, leave him be!
Perry Gretton
Perry Gretton is a Friend of The Conversation.
Writer
For what it's worth, my brother had difficulty withdrawing his foreskin and his doctor suggested circumcision as one possible remedy. He opted to have it removed. Ever since he's claimed that he gets nowhere near the level of sensation as before when ejaculating. I presume that was caused by the glans losing some of its sensitivity to compensate for the lack of a foreskin's protection. (The foreskin is there for a reason.)
Hearsay evidence, of course, and others may not be so affected. However, if you were circumcised as an infant, you'd never know.
As for the whole issue of infant circumcision, given the low risk involved, it should be discouraged in the same way as female genital mutilation is. When they reach an appropriate age, boys can choose whether or not to have it. I suspect not many would, except for religious or cultural reasons.
Jodie Lia
Ecologist
"Disclosure Statement
The authors do not work for, consult to, own shares in or receive funding from any company or organisation that would benefit from this article. They also have no relevant affiliations."
According to all of the above comments and evidence, the disclosure statement would be false, right?
Sally Parnis
Visual Artist, "retired" paediatric anaesthetist
Risks increased by having a foreskin: UTI - uncommon in boys, usually due to some malformation of the urinary tract way before the penis/foreskin. Therefore VERY uncommon in anatomically normal boys. Easily treated, and those with anatomical problems cured with surgery.
STI's of all sorts - easily prevented by simple non-invasive means (condoms, education)
Penile hygeine - easily carried out by washing(!) - foreskin or not!
Penile cancer: rare - 1/100,000 in the developed world!
Risks of anaesthesia (local and general) and surgery in the neonate: not insignificant, and include death. Or you can do it without anaesthesia - brutal.
Add to this the economic costs of circumcising all male infants.
Crazy stuff.
I cannot see how a risk benefit analysis can possibly come out on the side of routine neonatal circumcision.
( To declare my affiliations - I was a Paediatric Anaesthetist in my previous career)
James Loewen
logged in via Facebook
There is not one legitimate justification for surgically tampering with the penises of little boys. Not one.
The authors of this pathetic article, in their zeal to promote genital surgery where none is needed or consented to, use excuses that do not justify violating a child's human right to bodily integrity.
Morris and Wodak neglect to reveal that circumcision causes a sickness, a mental sickness they are obviously familiar with; that is, forced circumcision causes some people to fetishize…
Read moreChris O'Neill
Telecommunications Engineer
"And there may also be some reduction in the risk of prostate cancer."
As a bit of a side-issue, but conceptually related, I believe nearly all prostate cancers could be avoided by removing the prostates of all men by the time they turn 45-50. Removing prostates only when men already have prostate cancer is usually too late to make a difference because prostate cancer cells escape into the rest of the body very early. Fortunately, most of those cancers don't kill the host anyway.
I think the…
Read moreEddy Schmid
Retired
Can't understand, why this issue seems to raise so many stupid, uninformed comments. Sure, some commenters have stated they are circumcised and happy with it. BUT, the question needs to be asked, When were they circumcised, (what age) if as a baby, then they wouldn't have the faintest idea of what it's like to not be circumcised, AND they will NEVER know.
Read moreI notice too, many comments are made allegedly by scientifc people, yet not ONE of those comments can speak FROM FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE, and I…
Dianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
Big round of applause for some very rare common sense. Thank you Eddy.
I have been arguing the importance of proper cleaning of the penis and that circumcision is only necessary if there are valid medical reasons with Jude Williams (who claims to be a paediatric surgeon - see posts below).
His/her comments is that a build up of dead skin cells, ejaculate, urine and secretions from the sebaceous glands AKA Smegma is necessary and aids lubrication!
And I was voted down for what is basic hygiene!
Cheers
Carolyn Hastie
logged in via Twitter
This article is a very surprising one for the Conversation being, as it is, misinformed and misleading.
Having not heard of the Gilgal Society, of course I had to investigate. I found this item:
http://circumstitionsnews.blogspot.com.au/2012/04/sydney-brian-morris-fails-to-erase.html
Says it all.
Michael Glass
Teacher
This conversation has followed the usual line about circumcision. People favouring circumcision have praised it; those against circumcision have denounced it. And so it has been for more than two thousand years.
I think it is perhaps better to put aside this sterile fight, and look at what would happen if we either made infant circumcision compulsory or banned it completely. If either thing happened there would be pandemonium.
Therefore it seems to me to be a foregone conclusion that whatever…
Read moreDianna Arthur
Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
Environmentalist
Well said.
Circumcision Resources
logged in via Facebook
Every circumcision is a botch.
Chris O'Neill
Telecommunications Engineer
"A third thing to do is to ensure that circumcisions of adults and older boys is not forced on them. Anyone who circumcises an adult or older child against his will should be prosecuted for sexual assault."
So by implication there is a difference between using force on adults and older boys and using force on younger boys.
Bizarre.
Michael Glass
Teacher
Chris, at the moment there is no specific law against forcibly circumcising an older child against his will. My proposal is to stop this. You are arguing against a limited reform which would be difficult but possibly achievable because you want a more radical reform. So I ask you, what is more bizarre, proposing something that would not stand a chance, or proposing something that just might gain acceptance?
Chris O'Neill
Telecommunications Engineer
"no specific law against forcibly circumcising an older child against his will"
One wonders why your earlier statement was about "adults and older boys" and now it's just about older children. Perhaps you recognized that it is bizarre proposing a law against the forcible circumcision of adults because this is already illegal under the law of assault. So at the very least that was bizarre.
Regarding making a law against forced child circumcision with an arbitrary cut-off age (don't you like…
Read moreMichael Glass
Teacher
The chances of getting a ban on all circumcisions at the present time is about zero. However, something may be done about the forced circumcision of adults and older children. The former is assault at law; what I proposed was that it be treated as sexual assault. With older children the law is less clear, though there is a precedent in a case in Oregon, USA, where the supreme court of that state ruled against the circumcision of a boy in a hard-fought case (Boldt vs Boldt) where the mother was against…
Read moreMichael Glass
Teacher
I understand your feeling about circumcision. However, I wonder what could be done to minimise the harm from circumcisions. I have proposed five changes in the law that would help to reduce the harm that can result from circumcision. Could you tell me if my proposals would be an improvement on the present reality?
1 My first proposal is to ban unqualified operators from circumcising babies. At the moment, the law of England does not cover this situation. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news…
Read moreShondolyn Gibson
logged in via Facebook
I do not understand why you are so eager to circumcise at infancy. Why not wait until the penis is fully developed and the man can get anesthesia and pain medicine?
It doesn't help that for millions of years men AND women have had foreskins. It's a functioning part of the body. There is no reason to cut it off, especially in a world of water and condoms.
It does not help that girls are more likely to get UTIs than boys. So perhaps we should cut off their prepuces too? Ridiculous. There really is not a good reason to subject a baby to this surgery.
Russell Cunningham
Trainer
Where is the research on the EMOTIONAL effect of circumcision?
Any therapist who works with the unconscious mind will tell you that the earlier the "event" the more profound the emotional effect.
For example a hundred years ago, babies in US orphanages were kept in sterile rooms without contact to prevent disease almost all died before they were seven months old. More recent research shows a much higher rate of childhood abuse in Caesarean born children. Children born during war time show effect too.
I've seen videos of the circumcision operations and those tiny little boys were screaming and looked terrified.
Any unnecessary operation is insanity. Don't doctors have enough to do?
James Mac
logged in via Facebook
I'm quite certain that history with harshly judge those who have abused their positions in society along with the honerable traditions of science in an attempt to justify the brutal violation of children's bodies and human rights.
It is patently obvious to anyone who cares to look, that circumcision benefits exist only in the minds of circumcision advocates and the papers they relentlessly publish.
What health benefit has the U.S. realised from the circumcision of around 100 million boys…
Read moreJason Maas
logged in via Facebook
There are no provable benefits to circumcision. If there were, we would have seen them at some point during the last century of circumcision research. We would have seen them in the US, with the highest rate of circumcision in the developed world. And we'd certainly see some benefits in Africa. We see none.
Instead, we see the highest rates of HIV and STDs of any developed nation in the US despite (or *because of) the near universal circumcision there for years. Then there are *three* unfinished…
Read morerory robertson
rory robertson is a Friend of The Conversation.
former fattie
Wow! Professor Morris, that's a pretty strong series of comments. I was surprised yesterday to discover that my mother and sister - with seven-decades worth of nursing experience in remote and regional Australia between them - also have a strong opinion on this matter. But strong opinions are one thing and published peer-reviewed research quite another. The scientific record is supposed to contain only independently verified results in which we can have confidence. I noticed recently in a "Comments…
Read moreJohn Dalton
logged in via Twitter
Circumcision occupies a privileged position.
One could postulate many benefits that might arise from cutting off a normal part of the body. Who knows what benefits might arise from removig one kidney. Breast cancer might be prevented by ablating breast tissue at birth.
But of course we don't advocate removing normal body parts (except the foreskin) to prevent disease as it fails the test of proportionality. Any proposal to remove normal body parts to research the benefits would be laughed…
Read moreSeamus Gardiner
Citizen
Well said, John.
jack adams
Economist, accountant, grandfather
After reading this article, I have come to believe that the best way to avoid breast cancer in women is to have them removed when they start to develop or earlier. Even better than the relatively rare complications with keeping a foreskin, breast removal of women will result in a 100% reduction in breast cancer, which has killed millions of women worldwide.
And moving on, testicular cancer is something that kills thousands of young men every year, so off with their eggs!!
Now brain tumors are a problem so....
and the list goes on..
Chris O'Neill
Telecommunications Engineer
"and the list goes on.."
As I mentioned earlier, one of the highest success rates could be achieved with Prostatectomy for all men at age 45-50. This could reduce the Australian male death rate by more than 4%, far more than anything circumcision could achieve.
Perry Gretton
Perry Gretton is a Friend of The Conversation.
Writer
I strongly suspect that all those males who have their baby boys circumcised are themselves circumcised. I suspect also that advocates of mandatory circumcision at birth are circumcised too. Yet I doubt there are many uncircumcised males choosing to have their male infants circumcised without a medical reason.
All this leads me to conclude that there's an interesting psychology at play here. Perhaps it should be called Foreskin Deprivation Syndrome.