Dr Seuss’ book Green Eggs and Ham is built around the urgings of a weird creature, Sam I Am, who insists the narrator eat the food of its title. When the narrator refuses, Sam issues an ever-widening range of appeals – Would you eat them in a box? Would you eat them with a fox? But Sam’s insistence fails to convince an increasingly vehement narrator.
The story provides a light-hearted analogy to the plight of anyone who has tried to persuade another person to abandon an entrenched position – especially a parent’s decision to not vaccinate their child. In fact, psychologists have found that too much urging can result in a backfire effect, with the person becoming more committed to their beliefs.
When herd immunity hangs by a narrow margin, the decisions taken by a small group of parents matter. With too few children vaccinated, a disease such as measles can easily spread. This impacts on the whole community, including those too young to be vaccinated and those who can’t have a vaccine for medical reasons.
While a measles epidemic cannot be solely blamed on people who actively forgo vaccination – waning immunity in adults also contributes – it can be an important factor. We saw this play out in the United Kingdom in the late 2000s, when the now-debunked theory that the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine caused autism drove immunisation rates down to 80%.
Avoiding a disease tragedy
The most important strategy to prevent the avoidable spread of infectious diseases lies on the supply side, with governments maintaining well-oiled systems. Free, easily accessible, safe and effective vaccines need to get to those who actually want them. It’s a tragedy when parents who want to vaccinate their children can’t do so because of external impediments.
The second strategy is to target those who are hesitant about vaccination. People in this group usually vaccinate but might delay or decline a stigmatised vaccine such as MMR or human papillomavirus (HPV).
Australia could do more to meet the needs of these active information seekers. Just this week, the Academy of Science released a high-end publication The Science of Immunisation: Questions and Answers. It sets out to explain the current situation in immunisation science, including where there is consensus in the scientific community and where uncertainties exist.
The third approach to preventing a disease outbreak is to minimise the proportion of people who refuse vaccines. Even though they represent about 2% of Australian parents, they cluster in certain regions where up to 35% may be unvaccinated. An outbreak of whooping cough or measles in those communities would result in a much more sustained spread.
Talking with vaccine refusers
One of the most important times to address this problem is when parents are forming or solidifying their views on vaccination – usually during pregnancy or in the child’s first year. At this time, their family doctor or child health nurse has a crucial role in discussing concerns.
These discussions can be challenging for health professionals. With this in mind, I worked with an international group of clinicians and communication scientists to develop a framework for health professionals in communicating about vaccination. We recognised these health professionals posess a good deal of training, experience and skill in communicating – that they already had a collection of communication tools. The trick is often knowing which tools to use and when.
The framework involves a tailored approach and is informed by evidence in the areas of communication science and motivational interviewing. It begins with a spectrum of parental positions: unquestioning acceptance, cautious acceptance, hesitance, delay/selective vaccination, and refusal. The goals and strategies will differ across these positions.
The common theme is listening and acknowledgement, and, as even Dr Seuss himself inferred, this approach is far more likely to produce a positive result than talking at cross-purposes.
When mum “Kate”, for example, declares her intention to her doctor to give her baby homoeopathic preparations instead of vaccination, he may immediately try to put her right, knowing homeopathy won’t protect the baby at all. This “righting reflex” is the natural response of health professionals to instinctively leap in and “put right” health-care problems.
With parents such as Kate who are often fixed in their views, the discussion can descend into a game of scientific ping-pong, arguing back and forth about the evidence. These discussions are usually time consuming and are likely to further entrench Kate who, feeling cornered, will defensively rehearse and reinforce her arguments.
In this situation, a better goal would be to build a rapport that may have gains further down the track, including further discussion, partial vaccination and, perhaps eventually, full vaccination. This would be done by acknowledging her concerns, asking permission to discuss, encouraging her to explore the pros and cons of her decision, and eliciting her own possible motivations to protect her baby from diseases such as whooping cough, particularly since her decision to use homeopathy has already demonstrated some desire for active protection.
This approach draws from motivational interviewing that uses a guiding style, rather than a directing style, for discussions where there is ambivalence and resistance to change. The method has shown to be effective for a range of health behaviours.
Our framework also sets out strategies for parents who want to delay or select-out some vaccines, are hesitant, or generally accepting of vaccination. Across all such scenarios, it is more effective if professionals build rapport, accept questions and concerns, and facilitate valid consent by discussing both benefits and risks of vaccination.
In Green Eggs and Ham, it’s not until Sam I Am finally acknowledges, “You do not like them, so you say. Try them try them and you may” that the winds of refusal change. The narrator tries the strange dish and, by book’s end, happily declares his love for it, and his gratitude to Sam.
Seuss showed us that a simple acknowledgement and a more respectful plea is part of the art of gentle persuasion.
Comments on this article are now closed.
May Stevenson
Horticulturalist
When did it become a doctor's job to convince people to take drugs, or treat their children with them? I personally choose to vaccinate my children and myself but that's my right as an autonomous human being and a parent. Other people have made different risk assessments about vaccines for their children. Vaccines are not risk free. Deal with it, that's a consequence of living in a democracy, people make choices you wouldn't and using manipulation techniques to convince people to do what you think is right is unethical.
Belal H
logged in via Twitter
It's like anything to do with preventative health. It becomes a doctors job because it prevents public money being wasted later on. In any case a doctor cannot force you to take a vaccination, they recommend it because it usually provides the best outcome. Your question is similar to asking "When did it become a doctor's job to convince people not to smoke?", or to eat healthy diets, or anything else along those lines.
Jamie Peck
logged in via Twitter
May, the problem is that when anti-vaxxers say that "I know what's best for my child" they are confusing emotion with knowledge, and the only person that suffers is the child. The only "risk" the parent is taking is with the future wellbeing of their children.
Francesca Cathie
Policy and Planning
read the article! it is suggesting that doctors invite their patients to explore the pros and cons of not vaccinating - ie to inform themselves! if encouraging people to educate themselves is "manipulative" I'm all for it.
Colin Bishop
Manager
@Francesca -- unfortunately the doctors are provided with "the spiel" to down play any side effects, downplay the adverse reaction reports and only promote the "this is safe, good for your child, and provides protection from the horrible actions of those parents that will not have their kids vaccinated".
Piffle, not one of my mates died from the measles, chicken pox, mumps etc - why? Because God made us with an immune system that took care of things - now we are over disinfected, vaccinated and drugged to the eyeballs and our immune system has been stuffed up.
One only has to look at the huge increase in diseases despite all of the new drugs and vaccinations - look at how quickly we have a new drug or vaccine for any new virus that has probably been grown in a government or chemical companies lab!
Mark Amey
logged in via Facebook
'Piffle, not one of my mates died from the measles, chicken pox, mumps etc - why?'
No, true, not many kids die from these diseases in Australia, but, unvaccinated children still die from measles pneumonia: t http://www.cdc.gov/ncird/progbriefs/downloads/global-measles-elim.pdf. Accessed April 14, 2009.
Jamie Peck
logged in via Twitter
Colin, if "God made us with an immune system that took care of things", why have millions died in the past of diseases like polio, smallpox, malaria, tuberculosis, even measles? (750,000 deaths worldwide in 2000 - WHO).
In which year did you graduate with your immunology degree from Google Unirversity?
Stuart Purvis-Smith
Clinical Cytogeneticist (retired)
Colin Bishop, so "not one of your mates has died from the measles" ... etc. Nor did I, but we are the survivors - why don't you ask how many children contracting these diseases die or suffer severe adverse consequences? Have you ever heard of SSPE (subacute sclerosing pan encephalitis), a rare but fatal outcome of measles infection? "Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE) is a progressive, debilitating, and deadly brain disorder related to measles (rubeola) infection".
About 10 cases of SSPE occur in the US each year compared with about 20 cases per million in India where vaccination is less common. Did their immune system protect these children or did God just decide to let these ones go?
Laurie Willberg
Journalist
The author receives funding from a pharma company and has produced the usual pro-vaccine spiel.
Read moreAn Italian court recently ruled that MMR vaccine WAS the cause of autism. A multitude of parents have applied for and received compensation for the same and other adverse vaccine reactions from other world courts. "Debunked" my ***. Why in the world would any parent take the chance that vaccinating their child against what are mostly benign childhood illnesses will result in a lifetime of highly taxing…
Mat Hardy
Lecturer in Middle East Studies at Deakin University
Excellent! I will now get all my medical and scientific advice from the Italian court system.
Sean Lamb
Science Denier
A wise choice, Dr Hardy, you might consider getting your seismological advice from the same source.
BTW, and completely off topic, someone filed an American version of the FOI with the defence department for material relating to Osama bin Laden's demise and guess what?
No pre-raid planning what to do in event of his fatality
No record of any DNA genotyping
No photos.
How utterly surprising.
Ken Harvey
Adjunct Associate Professor of Public Health at La Trobe University
First, infectious diseases such as polio, measles and whooping cough are NOT mostly benign; I'm old enough to remember children with polio in iron lungs at the old Fairfield Infectious Diseases hospital in Melbourne.
Second, homeoprophylaxis has not been "highly successful in preventing childhood diseases for decades". The one published paper on the prevention of Leptospirosis by homeoprophylaxis has not withstood critical appraisal nor has the work of Dr. Isaac Golden.
See: http://whitecoatunderground.com/2010/08/11/homeoprophylaxis-an-idea-whose-time-has-come-and-gone/
http://luckylosing.com/2012/05/28/isaacs-golden-moment/
Colin Bishop
Manager
Respectful plea? Gentle persuasion? I think that many have gone past trusting doctors now.
I think that the writer needs to consider the vast amount of "things" that we are now expected to "believe" - forced fluoridation for the good of our teeth for instance! The writer also needs to get up to date with the information on the facts of the MMR vaccine adverse reactions. The writer also needs to start counting the number of vaccines that we now expose our kids to. The writer also needs to research the number and quantity of drugs that are dispensed willy nilly with out a thought to the interactions between these drugs. The writer must also consider the plight of our "health workers" who are threatened with dismissal if they don't accept the various needles that they don't need, and the medical students that are denied their degrees for the same reason!
The medical profession is becoming a front for the drug cartels and as far as I am concerned the "profession" has been corrupted.
Mike Mayfield
Avid Science Nut
"The writer also needs to research the number and quantity of drugs that are dispensed willy nilly with out a thought to the interactions between these drugs."
Based on that statement I'll go right out on a limb here and suggest that you've never actually done any medical training nor do you know anyone who has - am I right Colin?
Elizabeth Hart
Independent Vaccine Investigator
More and more vaccines are being added to the vaccination schedule with little or no consultation with the community. Are all these vaccines really necessary? It's my opinion that that there is a great deal of lucrative over-vaccination being pushed upon citizens/children.
An article in New Scientist in late 2011 reported: "While the rest of the pharmaceutical sector struggles to keep afloat as expiring patents send profits plummeting, the vaccine industry has become remarkably buoyant."(1) A…
Read moreElizabeth Hart
Independent Vaccine Investigator
Further to my previous comment regarding over-vaccination, detailed and fully-referenced letters I have written on this subject are pertinent, e.g.
- Is universal HPV vaccination necessary?http://users.on.net/~peter.hart/Is_universal_HPV_vaccination_necessary.pdf
- Questions re the Ethics of Australian Government Mandated Vaccination (re the questionable second dose of the Measles/Mumps/Rubella live vaccine): http://users.on.net/~peter.hart/Letter_to_Minister_Plibersek_re_MMR_vaccine.pdf
- An open letter to the NSABB re the political and ethical implications of lethal virus development (re the influenza industry): http://users.on.net/~peter.hart/Open_Letter_to_Paul_Keim_NSABB_31_Jan_2012.pdf
Again, it's about time the media (including the CSIRO and university funded The Conversation) applied some critical analysis to the vaccine industry...
Colin Bishop
Manager
Well said Elizabeth Hart and you confirm what I have just said -- our medical professionals have been corrupted and mislead by the drug cartels who are there for the money and not the health and welfare of the people.
Colin Bishop
Manager
New Studies: Flu Shots May Cause Autism
November 25, 2012 By Mr. Augie
Can the flu cause autism? Or is it the flu shot?
Why is it we are told that flu shots are not safe for infants under six months—but are safe and necessary for the tiny fetuses?
Vaccinations have triggered autism and learning disabilities in children (several studies are given below). My headline Can Flu Shots Cause Autism? is a counter-punch to the dangerous and misleading news last week implying that flu shots for…
Read moreColin Bishop
Manager
AUTHOR
Julie Leask
Senior Lecturer at University of Sydney
DISCLOSURE STATEMENT
Julie Leask participated in an ARC Linkage grant that received partial funding from Sanofi Pasteur. She contributed to the Science of Immunisation booklet.
Say no more, nod nod wink wink!
Mike Mayfield
Avid Science Nut
So Colin, is it your contention that to trust an opinion anyone has on a particular subject, we should ensure that they have no expertise in that subject, and have never been paid any money by any company involved in that line of work?
Like, an electrician who was once paid money by an electrical company has an inherently corrupted view on all matters electrical, right? So you'll get the most reliable result and opinion if you hire a gardener to inspect your meter box, I imagine.
Colin Bishop
Manager
Mike - when the opinion is paid for by an organisation with a vested interest in promoting their product - yes I don't trust it! I don't trust the government either.
I'll give you an example:
Queensland Health tell us that water fluoridation is perfectly safe and will cause no harm -- well the silicofluoride that we are forced to ingest has NEVER been tested for ingested safety!
QH also tell us that all fluorides are the same - well you have to see a doctor to get a drug that contains fluoride, you have to see the doc to get an anti depressant that contains fluoride etc etc - but fluoride is distributed through our water with out meeting each individual who consumes it -- one dose suits all consumers.
So we inject our population without any considerations of how each person may react - take the HPV vaccine - it was not made to "cure" anything - it was made to make a diagnosis easier and now they want to force it on boys - BS
Mike Mayfield
Avid Science Nut
Right, Colin, I think I see your logic.
We cannot trust airline pilots on their opinion whether or not a plane is safe to fly, nor the engineers who maintain them, because they are being paid by the airline which owns the plane. They have a vested financial interest in just telling us they're safe, when they're really not.
Thus airline pilots (and engineers) are all inherently untrustworthy, and people who fly on planes are mad.
Yes, you're making much more sense now Colin.
Colin Bishop
Manager
Jabs for babies: Pig virus-contaminated vaccine for stomach virus to be administered to small infants in UK
Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/038097_vaccines_infants_contamination.html#ixzz2DMwB3WNv
Tim Scanlon
Debunker
I'd just like to say that any link to Natural News should immediately be deleted and have the poster banned from the internet. Mike Adams is human detritus. He recently made claims about the Aurora shootings and all sorts of BS that were flagrantly insensitive and flat out lies. The worst part was his own egotistic posing ("I've had training and could have disarmed the shooter") whilst criticising everyone who died.
As for his "health" advice, Mike brings the same brand of BS and lunacy to his health claims as he does to his conspiracy claims.
Colin Bishop
Manager
Homeopathy dramatically more effective at preventing and treating whooping cough than allopathic medicine
Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/038096_homeopathy_whooping_cough_vaccines.html#ixzz2DMwRBPhD
Jamie Peck
logged in via Twitter
Surely this is a Poe? First you state unequivocally that "God gave us an immune system" (any proof of this?), then you flood the comments with links to Mike Adams of Natural News, quite possible the biggest anti-science crank on the internet.
Have you anything of substance to add Colin, rather than more examples of your ignorance?
Cat Mack
logged in via Facebook
I think a little honesty might be called for here, Mr Bishop. You clearly have a particular agenda to push. - first out of the blocks and then ramp up the response with many additional posts. Have you considered a conversation? Certainly there does not seem to be ANY nuance in your responses. Should we give up vaccinating for small pox too? I see below that others have had the same thought. Less propaganda and more discussion
Colin Bishop
Manager
Mike - the limb that you went out on just broke!
What do you know about Group B Streptococcus (group B strep, GBS)?
Group B Strep is caused by the Streptococcus agalactiae bacteria. This bacteria is most often found in the vagina, intestine, and rectal areas of the human body, and is very common. As the human immune system can usually keep the bacteria in check, few will suffer any symptoms of infection unless the body is weakened due to other circumstances such as illness or in some cases, pregnancy.
A Weakened Immune System
• An outbreak occurs most commonly when the immune system has been compromised and cannot keep the bacteria in check. Poor diet, stress and diseases may weaken an immune system.
Cure? Lifelong ingestion of an antibiotic! Well this is what was prescribed by a specialist!
Mike Mayfield
Avid Science Nut
You didn't answer the question at all, Colin.
You allege that (presumably all or most) doctors prescribe medicines with no consideration for drug interactions. I suggest that in order to actually believe that, you must have never completed any medical training whatsoever, nor do you know of anyone who has. Otherwise you would understand the nonsensical nature of such a broad allegation and wouldn't make it in the first place.
But you obviously don't understand it. And you did make the allegation. Thus my question still lingers there unanswered whilst you dance around it.
Colin Bishop
Manager
Mike, I have worked with patients that are on multiples of drugs - 10 or twelve would not be uncommon.
One lady in particular was on eleven different drugs including Lipitor. Her doctor would not even consider reducing the drugs and because this woman was in extreme pain in her joints he prescribed yet another drug.
I advised her to go to a local private hospital and to tell the doctor there that she had suffered from polio as a child (she had told her own doctor). The youngster there did some…
Read moreSue Ieraci
Public hospital clinician
Colin - you have it mixed up again.
Group B strep is generally only an issue at the time of childbirth - when the newborn (the classic case of an un-developed immune system) passes through the birth canal. The issue is not that the mother carries it in her bowel or vagina, but that it can cause life-threatening infection in the newborn. For that reason, pregnant women are screened and treated if they are colonised.
I don't know what you are the "Manager" of, but it's clearly not a health service.
charlie hewitt
engineer
I am but a humble and confused parent - which of you vacc'ers or anti-vacc'ers wants my soul?
First, some simple observations...
* There are many horrifying stories of individuals who have terrible reactions to vaccines.
* There are many peer-reviewed long-term longitudinal epidemiological studies which show that vaccines are safe and effective.
* Life is a numbers game. Risk is inherant.
So, when it comes health decisions should I look to stories about individuals or the results of peer…
Read moreMike Marriott
Library Manager
Charlie, you make all good points: think of the scale of the "conspiracy" and that nearly every doctor in the world, WHO, industry, governments, hospitals etc,. must be all part of a vast conspiracy.
What is more probable: such a conspiracy exists, or that some people are driven to conspiracy theories to explain a complex world and feel in control of events?
Colin Bishop
Manager
Ken Harvey - explain or identify the cause of MS?
wilma western
logged in via email @bigpond.com
The article provides a thoughtful and sensitive approach to the problem . It's also good that an updated and authoritative Q & A paper is now available.
Helayne Short
irrelevant
I get the gist of the writer’s article, written mostly for GP’s obviously. The Senior Research Fellow at the National Centre for Immunisation Research & Surveillance assumes people who decide not to immunise have not researched this issue so as to inform themselves of the risks etc. Every person I have met who decided not to immunise, or partly to, have been well informed about the issues. The writer assumes just because someone does not agree with her position of blanket immunization that they are…
Read moreColin Bishop
Manager
Aspartame-Cancer Link Exposed: Increasing Your Cancer Risk
http://naturalsociety.com/aspartame-cancer-link-exposed-increasing-cancer-risk/?utm_source=Natural+Society&utm_campaign=fbd9b39594-Email+39%3A+11%2F26%2F2012&utm_medium=email
For how many years was this poison withheld from the market because of the danger - then a politician (with a financial interest) replaced the head of the authority, put his own man in and now the market is saturated with it - read Pub Med!
This is just one example of the corruption, this is one example of the lies told by drug companies (and others) to make a profit - look how many drug companies are now being sued for withholding the truth of the adverse effects, the claims of their research results.
We have the right to know the truth and the right to make our own decisions. Recently my partner made her choice and her doctor is now treating her like a "silly child" -- "please take the medicine - just for me" - the doctors own words!
Tim Scanlon
Debunker
Aspartame has been widely studied and been shown to be safe. http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4127
Mike Marriott
Library Manager
In 2010 there where 139,000 deaths from measles according to WHO:
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/
Vaccination resulted in 74% drop in death between 2000-2010, a radically short time frame and testimony to the effectiveness of vaccines.
However I appreciate these statistics will not convince those committed to their world views, and that in reality a persons values and beliefs drive their acceptance and rejection of science.
The primary tactic of any anti-science…
Read moreColin Bishop
Manager
Jamie Peck - how many deaths are cause by the medical profession each year? How many adverse reactions are there to drugs and vaccinations every year? How many drugs are now used "for other purposes" by doctors? How many research grants are bestowed by the manufacturers to universities that are strapped for cash?
And Mike - how many deaths were there from measles in 1949? And who tells you that there has been a reduction in deaths as a result of vaccination? And how many children (especially) are now left disabled or crippled in some way as a result of the number and mixture of vaccines -- and what is in those vaccines for God's sake!
Mike Marriott
Library Manager
Motiovated reasoning.
Colin Bishop
Manager
Mike - and drug companies are now being caught out in their lies and deceit -- look at the law courts filling up, look what it is costing the drug companies -- look at the stuffed up lives that they have caused - not a conspiracy theory at all just greed.
Look at Monsanto - not conspiracy - just greed.
Just two examples where greed and corruption are being exposed in the courts.
Colin Bishop
Manager
And Thalidomide -- how many years did it take before the manufacturer admitted to being at fault and admitted that they knew but still don't admit liability for negligence!
I might be considered a bit (or very) stupid by some on this forum - may be I am but I am not naive.
Tweeting Technology
logged in via Twitter
Colin, it's not naive to distrust Big Pharma. But to assume that anyone who opposes Big Pharma is necessarily telling the truth - THAT'S naive. Often the snake oil peddlers are only selling snake oil, just like Big Pharma used to do before we had effective drugs.
Patrick Boyle
Consultant and Visiting Fellow
A nice overview piece concerning the communication/advocacy challenge re this issue. Suggest that comments by Charlie, Mike M. and Ken H are particularly valuable.
Mike Marriott
Library Manager
Graph showing incidence of measles before and after immunisation in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Measles_US_1944-2007_inset.png
Note that in the 1940s and 1950s the numbers infected frequently surpassed 500,000. Note the complete and rapid collapse in cases in the mid 1960s to almost non-existent following the widespread use of vaccines.
Measles outbreaks are now on the rise, mostly in those areas where people refuse to vaccinate.
Colin Bishop
Manager
Stuart - why don't immune systems work very well now? It is well known that antibiotics have an adverse effect on the gut flora and therefore on the immune system and look at what is happening as a result of over or incorrect prescribing - deadly antibiotic resistant diseases/germs.
Colin Bishop
Manager
Sorry - the problem is that our immune systems are not given a chance to work as we have become dependent of doctors and drugs - my partner had a cough when she was hospitalised recently, the doctor bet $100 that it was whooping cough, took a swab and immediately started a drug treatment. Look up the protocol - first the patient had been coughing for about six weeks (she had also been on massive doses of different antibiotics over six weeks, second the doctor didn't wait for the lab result before commencing treatment. The result came back negative for whooping cough - as my daughter told me they would - she only has a Masters Degree in Medical Science and she wouldn't know would she?
When my partner saw her doctor about this cough last week her doctor didn't take a look, didn't take any specimens for culturing - she just wrote a prescription for Ventolin! One week later on something that I recommended and it is nearly gone - just a simple herb!
Jamie Peck
logged in via Twitter
Shorter Colin Bishop - Who needs evidence when I have ANECDOTES!!
Colin Bishop
Manager
Mike - and a recent Queensland outbreak of whooping cough showed quite clearly that it was those who had been vaccinated were the ones that were catching it! Recent medical science shows that most vaccines are not as effective as what you (or the drug companies) would have us believe.
Mike Marriott
Library Manager
Cite references please, unsubstantiated claims.
Mike Marriott
Library Manager
It appears the issue is a new strain of whooping cough:
https://theconversation.edu.au/vaccine-resistant-whooping-cough-takes-epidemic-to-new-level-5959
You've provided a half fact. Which again is a technique frequently employed by anti-science movements: make an unsubstantiated claim that excludes key information.
I think it is well understood that individual viruses and diseases will continue to evolve and new strains will emerge. The evolutionary arms race will continue, of that there is no doubt.
The best response is research and develop effective counter-measures.
Sue Ieraci
Public hospital clinician
"those who had been vaccinated were the ones that were catching it! "
Colin Bishop gets it wrong again.
Yes, most of the cases were in vaccinated people, but the PROPORTION of cases was five times greater in the non-vaccinated.
Every numerator needs a denominator, Colin.
Colin Bishop
Manager
"Right, Colin, I think I see your logic. We cannot trust airline pilots on their opinion whether or not a plane is safe to fly, nor the engineers who maintain them, because they are being paid by the airline which owns the plane. They have a vested financial interest in just telling us they're safe, when they're really not. Thus airline pilots (and engineers) are all inherently untrustworthy, and people who fly on planes are mad. Yes, you're making much more sense now Colin."
Mike - diversionary bull crap - if a plane falls out of the sky and kills a couple of hundred people it's a disaster. Try filling the Wembly Stadium (UK) to maximum capacity EACH YEAR and then blowing them up - disaster or murder? Well that's how many die each year through medical mistakes.
Philip Dowling
IT teacher
I would recommend that Colin Bishop walk through an older cemetery and look at the ages of the children on the headstones. Then reflect that his ideas and recommendations would send many children of these ages to join them in the cemetery.
Tim Scanlon
Debunker
For once I agree with you Phil.
Colin Bishop
Manager
Tweeting Technology - what are the "new" drugs achieving? Go to a previous comment -
Merck Accused of Lying about Vaccine Effectiveness http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/07/10/merck-lying-about-vaccine-effectiveness.aspx
Merck Sued By Former Employees Claiming Vaccine Effectiveness Fraud
http://www.vaccineinjuryhelpcenter.com/merck-is-sued-by-former-employees-claiming-they-intentionally-lie-about-vaccine-effectiveness/
Merck is sued by former virologist employees…
Read moreTweeting Technology
logged in via Twitter
Colin - snake oil merchant sources again. Also, I referred to 'effective' drugs, not necessarily new. And no matter what your personal feelings towards them might be, I take it you don't claim that antibiotics didn't have a dramatic effect on the lethality of bacterial infections. Mind you, I might be biased. I owe my life to antibiotics. Call me a Big Pharma shill ...
Jamie Peck
logged in via Twitter
Colin, if you're going to decry "Big Pharma" and their "shills" in the medical profession, you might want to use more reputable sources than Joseph Mercola, a multimillionaire who badmouths the medical profession to sell his overpriced supplements and quack potions.
Colin Bishop
Manager
Phillip - look at the ages of those getting cancer - look at the numbers and ages of children that die of this disease. Why have we the largest growth industry in the world, why have we got no cure after mega buck is donated to research each and every year. Why do we still have any disease when we are told that vaccinations cured the problem - more lies!
And when you look at the reason for death consider the effect of good sanitation, something that they might not have had in the old days!
Sue Ieraci
Public hospital clinician
"consider the effect of good sanitation"
Colin Bishop - congenital rubella has been vaccinated into oblivion since the 1970's in Australia, and Haemophilus influenzae Type B since the 1980's.
How has our "sanitation" changed?
Colin Bishop
Manager
Mike: And the drug manufacturer stands accused by their own employees of "overstating" the effectiveness of the vaccine that they were selling!
Is this the other "half of the fact" Mike?
Hitler said - tell the people a lie and keep telling it, eventually they will believe the lie.
BTW - I am not anti science - I just object to science telling us that we have to believe them, even when they are caught out by their lies and the bigger they are, the more money they need to make and they are running out of ideas and so they find it necessary to keep telling lies - sorry not lies - not telling the truth!
Mike Marriott
Library Manager
Ding - godwins law.
Tweeting Technology
logged in via Twitter
Actually, it was Goebbels. Get your Godwin right.
Mike Marriott
Library Manager
There is no doubt the argument between Colin and others will Ping-Pong back and forth, like many of these conversations are wont to do.
I think it is worth noting how much a persons world view and values are going to shape their acceptance or rejection of evidence or facts. There is a large and burgeoning literature on this issue coming from the fields of psychology and other social sciences.
Increasingly we understand it is not a lack of information (the so called information deficient theory…
Read morePatrick Stokes
Lecturer in Philosophy at Deakin University
One of the things that is being discussed in psychology (not my field so I'm not qualified to comment on this work with any authority) is the correlation between conspiracy beliefs, and a combination of two personality traits: strong emphasis on individualism and liberty, and 'external locus of control' i.e. the belief that some external force(s) largely determines the subject's life.
In a way there's something almost comforting about conspiracies: they imply that at least someone, somewhere is in charge. Easier to think there's some shadowy cabal pulling the strings than to think that there are no strings to begin with. It's easier to think there's some massive Big Pharma conspiracy to keep us all sick and drug-dependent than to face up to the random nature of disease and our relative powerlessness.
Mike Marriott
Library Manager
@ Patrick,
I tend to agree - conspiracy theories have been flourishing for centuries, as individuals and sections of communities struggle with a changing world, a loss of personal control and the need to impose order.
During and after the French Revolution conspiracies about the Illumanti and secret societies flourished. During the middle to late 19th century theories about bankers seeking to control the world and manipulate currencies abounded in both Europe and the United States; during much…
Read moreColin Bishop
Manager
Vaccine Companies Investigated For Manslaughter and other Vaccine Court Cases
http://www.vaccineriskawareness.com/Vaccine-Companies-Investigated-For-Manslaughter-and-other-Vaccine-Court-Cases
No Pharma Liability? No Vaccine Mandates.
http://www.nvic.org/nvic-vaccine-news/march-2011/no-pharma-liability--no-vaccine-mandates-.aspx
Why do the manufacturers get protected? Because they threatened to pull of of vaccine manufacturing if the government give them immunity for making dangerous drugs!
Tweeting Technology
logged in via Twitter
But if vaccines aren't efficacious, why would governments care if they were no longer produced?
Elizabeth Hart
Independent Vaccine Investigator
Mike, in an earlier comment, you say "In 2010 there where 139,000 deaths from measles according to WHO: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/ “
Looking at that WHO fact sheet, the Key facts state: “In 2010, there were 139 300 measles deaths globally – nearly 380 deaths every day or 15 deaths every hour.”
These are quite eye-catching statistics. Yet reading the WHO fact sheet further we read the following statement: “An estimated 139 300 people died from measles in 2010 – mostly…
Read moreGrendelus Malleolus
Senior Nerd
I’m very suspicious of the way you approach the proper use of qualifying terms such as ‘estimates’ as a way to undermine science. I’m also becoming increasingly suspicious whatever else it may be that I can imagine you might conspire about.
I'm not actually suggesting that you are, and in fact I am not even remotely suspicious that you are - my point is that why walzing in and casting aspersions with no evidence you are creating an intentional climate of uncertainty that is based on your own belief system rather than rational thought.
You should probably stop doing that.
Colin Bishop
Manager
So my opinion is wrong?
Tough.
The art of gentle persuasion -- so you are taking the big stick to the back of my head to prove that you are right!
Huuuuuum! Motivated reasoning, the more you hit me the more inclined I will be to believe you?
It didn't work - I am more inclined to believe what I read in medical publications than I am in believing the government or the drug manufacturers after reading the BS that is being transmitted in this forum.
And I see that I missed a couple of words in the mail below - the drug manufacturers blackmailed the government into giving them immunity from producing ineffective and dangerous drugs and drugs that had not been sufficiently tested (all proven facts)
First, thou shalt do not harm and second - if you are not sure apply the precautionary principle.
Jamie Peck
logged in via Twitter
Colin, you mention that you "believe what you read in medical publications" but so far you have no linked to a single reputable, peer reviewed study. Your "experts" so far have been:
NVIC - the single most vehement, rabid anti-science, anti-vaccination group in America,
Vaccine Risk Awareness group (whose motto is He who lives medically, lives miserably!)
Joseph Mercola - an anti vaccination crank who peddles magical, mystical woo on his website and once stated that cancer is a fungus that can be cured with baking powder, and
Mike Adams (Natural News), a conspiracy nut who has never seen an anti vax story he didn't believe.
These are your experts. Please, give us one reputable, peer reviewed study that we can discuss and dissect. Just one.
Grendelus Malleolus
Senior Nerd
"First, thou shalt do not harm and second - if you are not sure apply the precautionary principle"
Hmmmm
There are times when "do nothing" is equal to "do harm" and the precautionary principle often requires action rather than inaction.
How to know when is the key and for this we rely on appropriate analysis of risk. This can be determined best through the study of many people rather than from individual cases. This is called epidemiology and it remains the most effective way to determine…
Read moreColin Bishop
Manager
Goebbels or Hitler - does it really matter? The fact is that they expect us to believe their lies even when they are caught out! And then they blackmail the government into giving them immunity for their wrong doings.
Elizabeth - yes indeed - estimates! Look how many died from pig flu or bird flu in the last few years, how could they actually know when most "victims" were not tested, their diagnoses was nothing less than a guess. But did you see the line up for the free vaccines, line ups of terrified…
Read moreTweeting Technology
logged in via Twitter
Yes, it does matter. You expect us to believe you know what you're talking about. Elementary mistakes don't bolster your plausibility.
Colin Bishop
Manager
Mike - so in your opinion: It is no surprise we live in age when conspiracy theories abound and have gone mainstream. Indeed, the internet has proven to be the great facilitator of conspiracy theories and culture. "
Is this why the government want to get control of the Internet? Do they want to stop us from being exposed to the "untruths" or do they want to protect themselves from us learning the truth?
If only 10% of information on the Net can be believed then I believe that we have reason…
Read moreMike Marriott
Library Manager
I think my point has been proven.
Typically conspiracy culture and conspiracy theorists make bold claims about the power and reach of those behind the conspiracy - in order for the conspiracy to be true, those behind it need to be:
a) hyper-effective in their ability to control events
b) their intent is always, without exception, malicious - indeed they are the personification of cartoon villainy.
A deep distrust of authority or traditional gate keepers of knowledge (scientists, doctors…
Read morePatrick Stokes
Lecturer in Philosophy at Deakin University
@ Mike: Very nicely said!
Sue Ieraci
Public hospital clinician
The world news is controlled by just "a handful of people"? The government wants to get control of the internet?
Lucky we have Packer and Fairfax!
Colin Bishop
Manager
Jamie - so chemotherapy cures cancer? Cutting off body parts cures cancer?
Wake up - how can you cure anything if you don't even bother looking for the cause!
I have helped several people get rid of "cancer" -- I look at what they are eating, drinking, breathing and how they live - drinking polluted water, breathing polluted air, eating scientifically modified foods that contain all sorts of chemicals and synthetic vitamins - look at the fear!
Over 1700 new chemicals were release into our…
Read moreTweeting Technology
logged in via Twitter
If you've achieved that, you owe it to the world to publish your methods. Oops, sorry ...
Colin Bishop
Manager
Doctors care about their patients, so why aren't they more critical of vaccination? Is it lack of awareness, an inability or unwillingness to connect the dots, years of indoctrination or fear of possible professional repercussions if they speak out...? Dr. Bernice Eddy, (see Politics of Power and Contol;) Dr. Robert Simpson, Dr. Rebecca Carley, Dr. Jane Donegan and Dr. Andrew Wakefield are but a few examples of doctors who've been professionally penalized for not towing the party line
"Since vaccine…
Read morePatrick Stokes
Lecturer in Philosophy at Deakin University
I believe the 'teeth into' comment was in reference to peer-reviewed sources. Funny you neglected to mention which peer-reviewed journals the above quotes appear in.
Jamie Peck
logged in via Twitter
I asked for peer reviewed studies, you provide quotes and personal opinions.
Then you went and jumped the shark by referring to Andrew Wakefield as someone who was treated unfairly by the medical establishment. THE Andrew Wakefield, widely recognised as the perpetrator of the biggest scientific fraud of the 20th century.
Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
Colin Bishop
Manager
Well said Mike - you calling all the writers below "nutters"?
Mike Marriott
Library Manager
Not at all - as stated, belief systems and values inform a persons acceptance/rejection of scientific theories.
I don't think calling people "nutters" is appropriate. Indeed, it is a very human trait to a) deny evidence that contradicts values and b) seek and impose meaning and patterns in the world.
The trick is to be aware of when you are failing for those individual biases.
Colin Bishop
Manager
"I do believe that there is a problem in reporting the effects of vaccination on children... And one of the reasons that I believe there is, is that there is a great, great pressure put upon the medical hierarchy, by the drug companies to suppress an enormous amount of important information."
Dr. Evan Lallemand, Osteopath specializing in vaccine damage rehabilitation, Austria, 1992
"Many physicians and medical students have told me that if this vaccine is recommended and mandated by government…
Read moreColin Bishop
Manager
Patrick you are an idiot - these are statements made by medical professionals - will you "peer review them"?
Patrick Stokes
Lecturer in Philosophy at Deakin University
They can make all the statements they like. Without peer-reviewed research to back it up, it's worthless.
Colin Bishop
Manager
Grendelus Malleolus - that's fine but how many are injured by the vaccination? Science would have us believe 0 and it helps when the medical directors closed down the adverse effect reporting system in the UK and they don't encourage doctors to report adverse effects in Australia or the USA - they do in many other countries!
Look at what the experts say in my mail under!
Grendelus Malleolus
Senior Nerd
"that's fine but how many are injured by the vaccination?"
So you accept my point that vaccinating carries a lower risk of death than not vaccinating and wish to discuss injury rather than mortality?
Good. We can work with the epidemiological data here too because encephalitis is the key.
The main sources of death or injury following measles are anaphylaxis (allergic reaction to the vaccine - and dealt with by proper practice in giving the vaccine then observing for reaction which follows rapidly) and encephalities that may include high fever, convulsions, coma and death or permenant injury to the central nervous system. When you reduce the rate of encephalities you reduce both deaths and injuries together.
The course of action with the lowest risk is still vaccination by a country mile.
The links you provided are not to experts, and certainly not evidence.
Colin Bishop
Manager
"They say openly in the (medical) legal system that if you advise against vaccination, the AMA will push to de-register you."
Robyn Cosford MD, Australia
"As a result of Dr. Erdem Cantekin's efforts his data tapes were erased, he was taken off the department's grants, fired as Director of the Ear Research Clinic and forbidden by the Chairman to publish the paper..."
Read moreLendon Smith MD speaking on the price paid by Dr. Cantekins (Prof. of Otalarynygology, Internationally recognized authority on…
Colin Bishop
Manager
Mike, you sound like an "x spurt"!
Colin Bishop
Manager
Patrick - don't you understand that there will never be any peer reviewed research against vaccinations - why - follow the money.
Patrick Stokes
Lecturer in Philosophy at Deakin University
So to summarise: vaccine risks outweight the benefits, but by definition we can never actually have any valid evidence that this is the case because a vast conspiracy involving hundreds of thousands of individuals is actively suppressing it, principally by corrupting the volunteer-labour-run peer-review system.
I hope Occam brought some spare strops with him.
Colin Bishop
Manager
Jamie - do some reading! Ignore who wrote the story - look at what the other doctors found -
The smoking-gun evidence
Professor Walker-Smith's 1996 presentation at the Royal Free Hospital Medical School was entitled, "Entero-colitis and Disintegrative Disorder Following MMR - A Review of the First Seven Cases."
His presentation notes began with the following text: "“I wish today, to present some preliminary details concerning seven children, all boys, who appear to have entero-colitis and…
Read moreChris Aitchison
logged in via Twitter
Circumstantial evidence is not 'smoking gun'.
I am sure these poor children also drank tap water before they were diagnosed with Autism, so why would that be less likely a suspected cause? It is not like this 'smoking gun' evidence is a controlled study.
Michaela Patel
Primary & Secondary Teacher
I think it would be really valuable at this point to read an explanation of immunisation and vaccination from a scientific expert in the field.
I remember studying immunology at Uni and it was one of the more difficult subjects I took. From the discussions here, it seems that perhaps different people have different understandings of how the immune system works. I would really like a refresher (in simple language, with pictures please!) of the scientific theory behind vaccines and immunisations and types of immune responses to different pathogens. No statistics - just current scientific understandings of how it works.
Perhaps there could also be an explanation from a naturopath (or similar non-standard medical person) of how they understand the immune response and the theory underlying their approach to different pathogens.
While people have such differing understandings of the science, it is very hard to see any common ground.
Michaela Patel
Primary & Secondary Teacher
BINGO! I just found the article I was looking for. Perhaps we could all read it, then comment from an informed perspective rather than talking through some other orifice! The document is here: http://www.science.org.au/policy/documents/AAS_Immunisation_FINAL_LR_v3.pdf
(Strangely, this is the very document that was discussed in the original article above!)
It would still be good to hear a naturopath's view of immunity and the immune system.
Edward John Fearn
Edward John Fearn is a Friend of The Conversation.
Hypnotherapist and Naturopath
Thank Michaela
Read moreThere shouldn’t really be any difference how Naturopaths see the immune system and the conventional medical understanding. Vaccinations are generally safe and effective and serious adverse reactions are exceedingly rare. If you compare this to the fact that in whooping cough: for example the mortality rate is 1 in 200 in infants under six months, vaccination seems the obvious choice.
While adverse reactions are exceedingly rare, there is a small body of evidence that nutritional…
Laurie Willberg
Journalist
Here is a very cogent explanation of how the innate immune system operates and how artificial vaccination compares with it. http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/07/05/herd-immunity-the-flawed-science-and-failures-of-mass-vaccination-suzanne-humphries-md-3/
Colin Bishop
Manager
Grendelus Malleolus I think you might be getting a uriniary tract infection.
Science estimated that millions of people would die of bird flu, the same people estimated the same with the pig flu - were they right? Did they sell a lot of vaccines and untested Tamiflu tablets?
Millions of people would have died if they didn't have their vaccines - is this the truth? How many are getting sick despite having had their vaccinations which should have provided immunity?
How many people have gone…
Read moreGrendelus Malleolus
Senior Nerd
"Grendelus Malleolus I think you might be getting a uriniary tract infection"
I am guessing you meant "urinary", but no.
Tamiflu - I agree totally. Governments may have been hoodwinked into buying an expensive drug that is largely useless. That is unrelated to vaccines however.
Because I am a number geek I am pontificating and part of a conspiracy theory. Well excuse me for learning to think!
Colin Bishop
Manager
Grendelus Malleolus, no I do not accept your point at all. Why, because the evidence that is coming out is that vaccines contain very dangerous chemicals and ingredients that have been banned for many years - formaldehyde, mercury, to name but two! Is it not reasonable to suggest that the manufacturers use ingredients that are known to cause health problems? Is this not attempted murder?
I will repeat an earlier statement - hundreds of thousands are killed world wide as a result of misdiagnoses…
Read moreMark Amey
logged in via Facebook
'Why, because the evidence that is coming out is that vaccines contain very dangerous chemicals and ingredients that have been banned for many years - formaldehyde, mercury, to name but two'
Vaccines haven't contained mercury for decades, and the human body has very robust enzymatic systems for detoxifying the formaldehyde that we all ingest, either as contaminants, or from our gut flora. We also produce small amounts of it as a by product of the synthesis of certain amino acids.
Grendelus Malleolus
Senior Nerd
Oh dear.
So evidence from statistics is not evidence in your view?
You have formaldehyde and mercury in your body right this moment. Your body actually made the formaldehyde - it it attempting to murder you?
I direct you to Paracelsus first, and then refer you back to the statistics - most of the population is vaccinated and yet life exptancy is increasing - hardly the outcome if vaccines were deadly as you seem to suggest.
How far does your conspiracy spread, how deep does it go. Is…
Read moreDan Smith
Network Engineer
I have everything but "contrails" marked on my Conspiracy Bingo sheet. Can someone oblige ... ?
Patrick Stokes
Lecturer in Philosophy at Deakin University
I'd discuss chemtrails, but my reptilian overlords would never forgive me for divulging the terrible secret.
Tweeting Technology
logged in via Twitter
No Morgellons yet. Terrible oversight.
Grendelus Malleolus
Senior Nerd
I think the Kennedy Assassination has not been covered and AIDS and the real story behind the death of Twinkies are yet to be raised.
Did see a great XKCD recently where the chemicals used for chemtrails on board flights 11 and 175 were used to explain the high temperatures required to brind down the World Trade Centre...
Colin Bishop
Manager
Michaela Patel - I can't really answer you in this forum but I can put up a discussion point:
Group B Streptococcus (group B strep, GBS)?
Group B Strep is caused by the Streptococcus agalactiae bacteria. This bacteria is most often found in the vagina, intestine, and rectal areas of the human body, and is very common. As the human immune system can usually keep the bacteria in check, few will suffer any symptoms of infection unless the body is weakened due to other circumstances such as illness…
Read moreMichaela Patel
Primary & Secondary Teacher
Sorry to hear about your patient Colin.
By the way, what is your job? If you are a naturopath, can you give a simple explanation (without anti-doctor vitriol) of how you understand the body to develop immunity to things such as whooping cough, tetanus, and measles.
Is colloidal silver really safe? I saw something about it turning people slightly grey with long term use, and building up in their livers and kidneys.
Kate Rowan-Robinson
Kate Rowan-Robinson is a Friend of The Conversation.
Registered Nurse/Sexology Student
Thank you for an informative and useful article.
Having recently moved into practice nursing much of my day is taken with immunisations. I am yet to contend with a "conscientious objector", but this article has provided some useful strategies I can utilise. Just this morning I was thinking about those who are anti-vax often seem to become reiterated in their beliefs the more evidence you provide to them. I also find that those who are anti-vax tend to conduct their own "research", but find their information from less than credible sources.
I hope I won't have to utilise this strategy often, but now I feel better prepared.
Colin Bishop
Manager
Guys - when real medical people tell you that they have "concerns" - should we all listen?
What is Thimerasol Mark?
This was certainly in great use up to about 1999/2000 and is still believe to be in vaccines despite the denials of the drug companies - who also deny some of the other ingredients!
Also Mark - drugs, many drugs, and fluorides are known to stuff up the gut flora - take the proliferation of drugs into your considerations on what the body can do - if the immune system is working 100% and it has been allowed to do its work:
"Whenever the immune system successfully deals with an infection, it emerges from the experience stronger and better able to confront similar threats in the future. Our immune system develops in combat. If at the first sign of infection, you always jump in with antibiotics, you do not give the immune system a chance to grow stronger" - Andrew Weil, MD
Sue Ieraci
Public hospital clinician
"What is Thimerasol Mark"?
Well, I'm not Mark, but it's Thiomersal in Oz.
And what is it? A compound that contains mercury. ANd has not been shown to be associated with adverse events.
The key here is to understand the difference between an element and a compound. Water contains hydrogen and oxygen ions, but it is neither hydrogen nor oxygen. Similarly, thiomersal is not mercury.
Colin Bishop
Manager
Has it Tim? Why did the American Drugs people keep it off the selves for at least seven years because of its know danger? What part did Donald Rumsfeld have in its introduction - did he happen to have a financial interest in this poison? Did he put "his own man in charge" to get it released onto the market?
How many reports have you read that "slam dunks" the safety of this chemical? Do you know that the manufacturer and the government have never ever conducted a health and safety assessment…
Read moreTim Scanlon
Debunker
Ahh, so it is a conspiracy. How did I miss that.
Your tin foil hat is available from Dorey.
You really should read the link I provided, Dunning runs through and debunks all the BS you just spouted with actual evidence. http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4127
Colin Bishop
Manager
Michael - those that change color (and I have only heard of two such people) are overdosing hugely.
I will not try to explain how the body works - just do a bit of reading on what stops the body from healing itself!
Colin Bishop
Manager
This is how it works:
Royal Society’s Chief Called to Resign over Fluoridation
Tuesday, 16 October 2012, 4:59 pm
Press Release: NZ Fluoridation Information Service
Royal Society’s Chief Called to Resign over Fluoridation Review Debacle
NZFIS
Wellington
11 October 2012
Contrary to the claims that the Royal Society’s call for scientific information on fluoridation “did not elicit any new information indicating that a further review would be of value at present” the Society received…
Read moreGrendelus Malleolus
Senior Nerd
The whole "vaccines are a conspiracy" issue is just a smokescreen to distract attention from the greater plot of water fluoridation because the Dark Brotherhood know that toxic fluoride prevents independant thought.
Or something...
Colin Bishop
Manager
Michaela - when I was a kid i was sent to school while I was "infectious" - no symptoms - if a kid was known to be infectious we would all attend school, we all got it to a degree and we all built a natural immunity because in those days we didn't have a drug or a needle against everything so our immune systems worked well. We were not "disinfected" either - you know all that stuff that kills 99.9% of all known germs and leaves the.1% to kill you or what about the germs that they don't know about…
Read moreSue Ieraci
Public hospital clinician
Colin Bishop - you confuse pathogens with environmental micro-organisms, you misunderstand the concept of "natural" immunity (the immune response to vaccines is also "natural" - it's the antigen that isn't). With such misunderstanding, can you really form an informed opinion?
Colin Bishop
Manager
Grendelus Malleolus dictated water fluoridation is as bad as dictated vaccination -- I have never suggested a conspiracy theory or the "Dark Brotherhood" (so childish). Most obviously this is either a move to world communism or someone is making lots of money? As far as I am aware there is no government that has run on a platform of compulsory medication, therefor there can be no mandate.
Now I have had enough of you people going on about conspiracies, chem trails, tin foil hats and "Dark Brotherhoods" - but then if that's the only argument or discussion point that you can make then it shows how shallow you are!
Grendelus Malleolus
Senior Nerd
I was having a little fun with the apparent slant to your comments that forced vaccination is some kind of plot. I am surprised that you think world communism is possibly at the heart of it. It has been in decline somewhat of late.
Colin Bishop
Manager
BTW -- didn't science tell us that smoking wasn't harmful? Didn't doctors get paid to appear in the cigarette adverts? Didn't science tell us that they could get rid of a bug in Australia - now we have cane toads? Didn't science say that asbestos wasn't harmful, DDT! Even now the government tell us that fluoridation is not medication, they also tell us that it is natural fluoride that they use, they say that all fluorides are the same - well there are many drugs that contain fluoride and one needs…
Read moreSue Ieraci
Public hospital clinician
Yet another trope of the anti-scientists. Yes, Colin, people in the past turned out to be wrong, and revised their views. That's how knowledge accumulates over milennia.
Once, ancient Greeks were wrong about "humours". Doctors no longer use that model. Hahnemann was wrong about "law of similars" and dilutions.
"I don't care whether I am right or wrong in any discussion or argument". Yes, that is evident.
"Let them put their safety studies up for examination." Yes, they're all out there - examine away.
Colin Bishop
Manager
Sue - nit picking - the response by the immune system is to stop doing its job if "something" else is put there that prevents it from doing its job -- the immune system was there first and it did a damn fine job until vaccinations cause "superbugs", our immune system can not fix the bug because it has never experienced it before. The first antibiotics worked but the overuse has created superior "bugs" and now we are in danger of those bugs because medical science can not come up with any new antibiotics…
Read moreTweeting Technology
logged in via Twitter
As I recall, the immune system did a 'damn fine job' with the black plague.
Sue Ieraci
Public hospital clinician
Colin - not nit picking - just stating things correctly.
What type of "something" are you thinking would prevent the immune system "doing its job"? Not vaccine constituents - they help the immune system respond to the antigens. That's what adjuvants are for - so a lower does of the antigen can be presented.
You are confusing vaccinations with antibiotic resistance. Vaccines do not cause organisms to mutate - how could they possibly do so? Organisms mutate spontaneously, and certain conditions…
Read moreColin Bishop
Manager
Grendelus Malleolus : not in Queensland it hasn't!
As our previous premier said (Blight) "you will have it whether you want it or not" (water fluoridation)
Recently in Bundaberg 89% of respondents to a survey said NO to water fluoridation. A survey conducted by the Nudgee Member (LNP) 97% said no to water fluoridation (against the Party Policy). Every public survey with the simple question - do you want water fluoridation - has come back with a resounding NO.
Now the current government cannot afford thousands of public servants but they can afford to pour millions of dollars straight down the drain - for what purpose because it can't possibly help teeth - can it?
So why do it - they purchase the stuff from China and they don't allow it in their water supplies!
Dennis Alexander
logged in via LinkedIn
I think the discussion so far demonstrates the author's point. We have someone who believes that sticking a poison up someone's bum is therapeutic - silver is a heavy metal and a poison (it kills cells, including gut cells) - arguing that pretty much all of modern immunology is a vast conspiracy theory and that against many people providing evidence to the contrary or asking for some actual scientifically credible evidence for that person's point. However, frankly, I'm not sure that even an extensive course of motivational interviewing would have much effect.
Colin Bishop
Manager
Thank you Edward John Fearn -- seriously thank you because this really does support my previous points on living healthy and with the absence of untested toxins and chemicals. Now in the UK as a result of CODEX one has to go to the doctor and get a prescription for a therapeutic dose of Vitamin C and even then the therapeutic dose is stipulated by the medical profession - why? Well their Vitamin C is synthetic and would be poisonous to our systems at the "real" therapeutic dose. Most of our "natural…
Read moreSue Ieraci
Public hospital clinician
Colin Bishop - to save you continuing to talk to yourself in this thread, I'll come in here.
The evidence is plain that being eating well, exercising and having a healthy immune system, no matter how many vitamins you take, is not enough to make you resistant to all bacterial and viral infections. Most of them won't kill you, and most of us won't catch them all, but we live in a society where we are able to prevent our children from suffering.
Measles was survived by the majority of older adults…
Read moreColin Bishop
Manager
Vitamin D - what is the best source? So why are we encouraged to "slop" on sunscreen that contains some dangerous chemicals - why not exposure in the early morning and later in the afternoon and then keep covered up and wear a a broad brimmed hat during the rest of the day?
Colin Bishop
Manager
Dennis - even water in high doses will have an ill effect! Silver, like most other organic metals, is only taken in minute doses - as are naturally derived minerals - it is also only taken when needed and not constantly "just in case". As far as my training goes silver will kill "infected" or "bad" cells and not healthy cells. You might have noticed that I also supplement with herbs that strengthen the immune system/the gut.
Colin Bishop
Manager
Tim, oh Tim get a life will you! Mike Adams is your only source of information and the target of your tiraid?
You poor man, I feel so sorry for you.
And Tweeting - what caused the Black Plague?
Tim Scanlon
Debunker
Colin, you referenced Mike Adams and his site Natural News in several posts. My response is to point out that Mike and his site are nothing more than the worst that the internet has to offer and to link to them shows there is absolutely no value in any claims made in association with the link.
If you somehow feel that this is an overstatement then you must read some truly awful parts of the internet that sane people dare not venture.
Tweeting Technology
logged in via Twitter
Yertsinia pestis. Carried by fleas which were in turn carried by rats. Believe me, it wasn't a 'vaccine-caused' illness. No immune systems were 'compromised' to cause this superbug.
Colin Bishop
Manager
The man with the nickname "Dr Flu", Professor Albert Osterhaus, of the Erasmus University in Rotterdam Holland has been named by Dutch media researchers as the person at the center of the worldwide Swine Flu H1N1 Influenza A 2009 pandemic hysteria. Not only is Osterhaus the connecting person in an international network that has been described as the Pharma Mafia, he is THE key advisor to WHO on influenza and is intimately positioned to personally profit from the billions of euros in vaccines allegedly…
Read moreColin Bishop
Manager
Albert Osterhaus is no small fish. He stands at the global nexus of every major virus panic of the past decade from the mysterious SARS deaths in HongKong, where current WHO Director Margaret Chan got her start in her career as a local health official. According to his official bio at the European Commission, Osterhaus was engaged in April 2003, at the height of the panic over SARS (Severe Acquired Respiratory Syndrome) in investigation of the Hong Kong outbreak of respiratory illnesses. The EU report…
Read moreColin Bishop
Manager
When no mass wave of human deaths from Avian Flu materialized and after Roche, maker of Tamiflu and GlaxoSmithKline had banked billions of dollars in profits from worldwide government stockpiling of their dangerous and reportedly ineffective antiviral drugs, Tamiflu by Roche, and Relenza by GlaxoSmithKline, Osterhaus and other WHO advisers turned to other greener pastures.
Read moreBy April 2009 their search seemed rewarded as La Gloria, a small Mexican village in Veracruz, reported a case of a small…
Colin Bishop
Manager
So these people and organisations (and possibly the government) are "ethical"?
Colin Bishop
Manager
Then on September 28, 2009 the same Salisbury stated, "There is a very clear view in the scientific community that there is no risk from the inclusion of Thiomersal." The vaccine being used for H1N1 in Britain is primarily produced by GlaxoSmithKlilne. It contains the mercury preservative Thiomersol. Because of growing evidence that Thiomersol in vaccines might be related to autism in children in the United States, in 1999 the American Academy of Pediatrics and the US Public Health Service called for it to be removed from vaccines.
Colin Bishop
Manager
In an interview with Der Spiegel magazine in Germany, epidemiologist Dr. Tom Jefferson of the Cochrane Collaboration, an organization of independent scientists evaluating all flu related studies, noted the implications of the privatization of WHO and the commercialization of health:
Read more"one of the extraordinary features of this influenza -- and the whole influenza saga -- is that there are some people who make predictions year after year, and they get worse and worse. None of them so far have come…
Laurie Willberg
Journalist
Revelations from an actual research immunologist on the politics underlying vaccine product development and the needs of researchers to acquire funding -- really, the fear of losing it.
http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/07/05/an-interview-with-research-immunologist-tetyana-obukhanych-phd-part-3-of-3-catherine-frompovich/
Any impartial observer of this blog can readily see the degree of hostility, condescension, and malicious mockery that anyone questionning the status quo is subjected to.
Tim Scanlon
Debunker
Wow, an anti-vax site as a reference, that must be legitimate!
Immunology is science, thus let us see what Tetyana has published in the peer reviewed literature. Google Scholar shows 9 journal articles, one copy of her thesis, and all of these are on the survival of antigens in the body. So it appears her research doesn't show anything that would make you stop vaccinating, in fact, if anything, the opposite is true. Her other complaints are the same that Ben Goldacre makes, funny that he is respected for his claims as he sticks to facts.
But let's just rebut a website with a website, shall we: http://biologyfiles.fieldofscience.com/2012/01/what-makes-expert-dangerous.html
Mine uses science, it's better!
Laurie Willberg
Journalist
Well, Tim I guess you're going to try to convince us that you know more than someone with a PhD in immunology and distract people from the facts with your silly monikers eg. "anti-vax site". And contrary to your bogus opinion that it "doesn't show anything that would make you stop vaccinating" -- you obviously are going to go along with getting jabbed with whatever gets trotted out no matter how dubious the "science" is.
Read moreI think you should stick with your "skeptology" (schleptology) as the quirky…
Tim Scanlon
Debunker
An ad hominem and strawman all in one reply Laurie, for shame, I'm sure you could use more logical fallacies than that.
I never claimed to know more than Tetyana, I just stated that according to the published science records, she has never done any study that shows vaccines to be unsafe or to not work. In fact her research has shown the opposite. But then her claims are made in a self-published book which tries to sideline all the great achievements of vaccines, whilst ignoring vast reams of science…
Read moreElizabeth Hart
Independent Vaccine Investigator
Re Tim’s reference to flu vaccines and their “success in lowering incidence and severity in a virus that mutates quickly”.
This article from the New York Times (5 Nov 2012) is pertinent: “Reassessing Flu Shots as the Season Draws Near”: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/11/05/reassessing-flu-shots-as-the-season-draws-near/
Here’s a quote: “Last month,, in a step tantamount to heresy in the public health world, scientists at the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University…
Read moreElizabeth Hart
Independent Vaccine Investigator
Tim, here’s another article re flu vaccines: “Cochrane review of flu vaccine not as definitive as health officer suggests” Opinion: Taking issue with Dr Perry Kendall’s letter by Tom Jefferson, Special to The Vancouver Sun, 15 November 2012: http://www.vancouversun.com/health/Cochrane+review+vaccine+definitive+health+officer+suggests/7543272/story.html
Here’s a quote from Tom Jefferson: “For the past two decades, I have been involved in the writing and periodic updating of Cochrane reviews on…
Read moreTim Scanlon
Debunker
Elizabeth, either in this article or the other on the same topic I listed several science papers that show the efficacy and safety of flu shot in the scientific literature. It is quite well understood that the risks of flu are lowered by ~30% and the severe cases (the ones that kill) are reduced 30-40%. Please don't cite newspapers and opinion blogs, especially when they are not looking at the data correctly. I mean, who honestly is surprised that people who are coming to hospital with the flu aren…
Read moreElizabeth Hart
Independent Vaccine Investigator
Tim, there may be other people reading this thread who might appreciate the links to recent articles I have provided regarding Tom Jefferson of the Cochrane Vaccines Field and Michael Osterholm of CIDRAP. I can only hope so anyway…
On the subject of the influenza industry, my open letter to the NSABB re the political and ethical implications of lethal virus development (dated 31 January 2012) also includes some useful references: http://users.on.net/~peter.hart/Open_Letter_to_Paul_Keim_NSABB_31_Jan_2012.pdf
Grant Jacobs
Computational biologist (research scientist / consultant)
I agree with the approach you describe.
I've tried on occasion to do what little I can within local ‘vaccine concern’ groups.* One problem I find is that those that organise these groups have a habit of tossing out people, no matter how polite, etc., you are.
This isn't a problem with the parents you are writing to - they’re open to discussion. It’s a problem with the organisers of these groups.
So while I agree with you, on-line at least there’s also this road block in the form of these organisers.
Anecdotally, I'm finding the organisers react particularly strongly if you point parents to a open discussion forum run by people with appropriate background, such as the one NZ’s IMAC have set up.
My impression is that while you can engage with the parents usefully, the organisers of these groups seek to ‘spoil’ what they can’t cope with.
Michael Glass
Teacher
How can you gently persuade people that vaccination is better than the traditional childhood infectious diseases?
For older people, this is a no-brainer. We know the fear of polio, the horror stories of children who died or nearly died from diphtheria, the disabilities that flowed from rubella, the misery of whooping cough and chicken pox and the nasty complication of mumps orchitis. Compared with these horrors, a course of immunisations is a worthwhile preventative.
However, people of childbearing…
Read moreVacunas Autismo
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Try them try them and you may
Trade measles for Guillain-Barré
Sue Ieraci
Public hospital clinician
Keep measles and you will see
The real incidence of SSPE