You are falling for that trap that terrorism is a result of poverty and lack of education. A dangerous trap indeed. Osama Bin Laden had a civil engineering degree, Ayman al-Zawahiri was a surgeon, and Nidal Malik Hasan was a psychiatrist for the US army. Additionally, we have thousands of imams and clerics worldwide who dedicated their life to studying the sunnah, and who advocate all the restrictions on liberty that Wilders warns us about: wife beating, paedophilia, Jew hatred, religious intolerance, acts of terror and Sharia Law.

May I also suggest that the differences in the "hate speech" in the Bible are pretty obvious. These passages somewhere at the back in the Old Testament are not prescribed for Christians as the perfect morality to follow. Quite the contrary, as the Bible is in chronological order, any intolerant verses were contradicted and abrogated by the gospel verses. The Qur'an, by contrast, is not usually in chronological order, yet later, more intolerant verses are expected to abrogate the more tolerant verses of Muhammad's earlier life. There is no debate about this. The Qur'an, being a rather unchronological, incoherent mess, is supposed to be interpreted in conjunction with the Hadith and Muhammad's biography. This is why Muhammad's character deserves special attention.

Many of your comments can be targeted at Jews and Christians?

Maybe if we hadn't been "kicking the crap" out of these people over the centuries, they may have liked to stay in their own lands?

We are on the verge of voting in a "right-wing Catholic" who meets weekly with Cardinal George Pell who has been a "denier of sexual abuse of children...and the cover-up of cases"?

The fall of the Roman Empire and the amalgamation 394 AD with the Christian Movement....The Holy Roman Catholic Church...the history of this organisation over 1600 years in full of "horror" and criminal activity...

Britain/France and the early 1900's agreement with the "Zionists" formed a coalition against rising forces in Europe (all)...support Jews with a "homeland agreement"...Palestinians haven't stopped suffering ever since?

Yes, All religions are problematic and should be slowing given "Double Speak" back to humanity!

You are probably not aware that the Koran says Muhammed married a 6 year old, but didn't have sex with her until she was mature enough, at 9 years of age.

Provide the verse number in the Koran where it says so (Mohammed married a 6 year or 9 year old girl) OR JUST STOP YOUR VILE ISLAMOPHOBIC PROPAGANDA

I'm sure the original Australians would agree with you Greg

Oh it happened 200 years ago...quick lets forget it. Off topic yes, irrelevant no.

No Miles, It's simply a fact that we cant change the past only use it to inform our actions for the present and the future.

Well, Australia stopped before it got as out of hand as it did in Holland. When Howard reoriented our immigration policy towards skilled foreigners, he turned off the Keating ALP branch-stacking tap of '[extended] family reunions' of illiterate peasants from Lebanon's Bekka Valley.

I see Kim that the facade of "independent thinker" has now been dropped completely. Just a common garden variety racist happy to repeat right wing talking points.

Australia's most famous descendant of immigrants from Lebanon's Bekka Valley is Steve Bracks, former Premier of Victoria.

Er, Steve Bracks was born in the western district of Victoria, baptised a Roman Catholic in that hotbed of Islamism - BALLARAT - where he was educated at St. Patrick's College.

I had already guessed that like the bigot you are, "illiterate peasants" was actually code for Muslim.

"Steve Bracks was born in Ballarat, where his family owns a fashion business. He is a Lebanese Australian; his paternal grandfather, whose family name was Barakat, came to Australia as a child from Zahlé in the Beqaa Valley of Lebanon"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Bracks

So, Mike demonstrates unequivocally that you are talking out your arse, Kim, and all you can do is distract and insult.

Are you actually able to recognise a fact when it's put in front of you or do you merely conside rfacts to be irrelevant to your arguments?

This is NOT a rare event in many islamic societies Ben.

And nor was it a rare event in dark ages european christian societies.

Western society has overwhelmingly moved on from such collective behaviour with the progress of science and education.

Many islamic societies have NOT yet overwhelmingly moved on from this sort of thing and oppose education and science.

Therefore please expalin why you think that the west should NOT exercise sensible (not irrational) caution about islamic immigration.

Greg, the 2011 Census shows that only 2.2% of the population are Muslim (and it's unlikely all of them are demanding Sharia law either), so worrying about Islamic immigration's threat to Australia IS irrational.

Excuse me, but it is something to worry about when we have a Labor party that's encouraging more boat people to arrive, that has increased the humanitarian visa quota, and that's more concerned with how appeased Muslims are in this nation rather than how well they are assimilating.

The fact that we have less than half the Muslim figures than the UK is a good thing. Let's keep it that way!

Wilders is warning us that our way of life is under threat from Islamic immigration. Can you explain HOW that is the case when our Islamic population is tiny and rates of Islamic immigration are LOWER than other groups?

In case you've forgotten, Australia's a democracy, so introduction of Sharia law would require a referendum. For it to pass would at a minimum require a 50% (probably more) majority. Please explain how you think that's going to happen when only 2.2% of the population are Islamic (even if you assume that ALL of them want Sharia law)?

Or maybe you think they're all hiding away in Lakemba, plotting a coup?

Your fears are completely irrational.

n case you've forgotten, Australia's a democracy, so introduction of Sharia law would require a referendum. For it to pass would at a minimum require a 50% (probably more) majority. Please explain how you think that's going to happen when only 2.2% of the population are Islamic (even if you assume that ALL of them want Sharia law)?

That is a very pertinent statement. I have not seen or thought of that before. I believe it requires at least a 2/3 if not a 3/4 majority vote in a referendum.

It's quite simple, really. As the Muslim population increases, the incentive to assimilate decreases. The UK has twice the percentage of Muslims, and already we're seeing a two-tier justice system in the development, Sharia vigilante zones, hate speech in mosques and Islamic schools, poppy burning and vocal extremists like Anjem Choudary, who'd otherwise never be accepted in Australian society.

We'd also see pressure to restrict freedom of expression. It's worrisome because there is no expressed constitutional protection of political speech in this nation like there is in the US, it's only implied. Statistics from a few years back show that 78% of British Muslims want blasphemy laws reintroduced. I am not making this up! Historically, Muslims will always vote for the most left-leaning party. In other words, they'll always vote for the most opportunistic, power-hungry scumbags of the Greens and the Labor party. They'll have no hesitation in curbing free speech if it means more power.

Birth rates of the middle/upper class is low & dropping.

But they r rising rapidly among the Muslim communities according to official reports.

Yup, they'll breed us out!

Don't forget that aside from having a significant number of muslims - England also has a significant number of racists ...

Remember the old skinheads with their union jack T shirts, doc martens and braces... that's the welcome these folks got. England didn't want them - not ever. And then they complain becuase the children of those migrants feel like they don't belong. Folks like Mr Boyle here made damn sure they didn't belong.

And they are doing the same thing here. Because they are pig ignerrant and never learn nuffin... no way!

We're good at accepting New Australians. We've done it for yonks and we don't have the hatred and fear that permeates the fragile English identity.

When will these displaced bovver boys try and fit into Australian culture? Maybe it's cause they know we don't want them.

Incidentally the National Front is where that Oi Oi Oi snorting came from. Ugly innit?

First things first ... "Ormonde".

I've just had a shower - don't like to waste them so I'll get back to you after I've worked up a sweat.

So, what is your point. Mike? You have failed to answer ANY of the issues surrounding Islam, sharia and changing demographics raised by Wilders (or Greg) so one can only conclude that their arguments are based in reality and fact.

So what is your point John.

You have failed to talk about child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. Are you saying we should not allow Catholics to immigrate to Australia?

Importantly, paedophilia is not condoned by the Catholic Church. Paedophilia in Islam was set in precedent by Muhammad himself.

Don't you get it, yet? It's ideological, not about people.

Context is sometimes everything. Legitimate marriage in several societies equates to child abuse in ours. At what point are 'people' not involved? Ideology springs from the minds of people, I would think.

Because he's attempting to show that the actions of a few individuals is linked to the ideology/religious doctrine. There may be Catholic abortion clinic bombers and there may be Catholic paedophiles, but that doesn't mean Catholicism is about bombing and paedophilia.

Islam IS about terrorism and it IS about paedophilia. Don't believe me? keep an open mind and watch the film Fitna on youtube.

Do you believe everything you see on YouTube? 'Truther' are we? How you make the assertion that "Islam IS about terrorism and IS about paedophilia" is beyond me. Islam is about the same thing that ALL religion is about: Control of the people. Nothing more, nothing less. It is well documented through history that religion (not to be confused with spirtuality) was designed and implemented soley to control a populace with ever increasing intelligence and knowledge, which in turn leads to critical thinking, which in turn leads to questioning of a governement/leadership. Simple really. It was for creating a whole population of uncritical and fearful sheep who did as they were told.

I have read fair chunks of it Matthew, but found it was the same intolerant bullshit you get from the bible. Both works of fiction, and both full of illogical fallacies and hyperbole. The bible also has plenty of paedophilic inferences - I think they called it pederasty back then. Different name, same ignorance.

Not really Miles ... the legal commentaries and discussions surrounding the 6,666 "words of god" contain a curious mix of the usual intolerant bullshit and some very humane and sophisticated analysis and interpretation.

Don't forget that Islamic scholars kept alive the Greeks and other pre-christian intellectual traditions and knowledge while we were off clubbing each other and giving each other the Black Death. They developed an enormous amount of our knowledge of methematics, medicine , medicine and physics... stuff that forms the basis of Enlightenmment thinking.

You're right that both are works of invention - as is all religion - but the importance is not in whether it is True - but rather what it meant at the time - they why it took off and what it did for those who embraced it in the context of 8th century tribal arabia through to those who are adopting it now.

But torn out of its very specific context there can be no understanding - not for Islam, not for the Bible, not for Gulliver's Travels either.

How sad is this, that an engineer would not know where half the tools in his toolbox come from? What do they teach you fellas?

Here... never to late to begin an education...

From an impeccable conservative source (if not academically so) : http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2005-03-28/repaying-the-wests-debt-to-islam

Here's a rather good essay - an overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world

And here's one on scientific method ... not as good but some useful links and references: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_science

If you are actually interested I can give you the names of a few olde worlde actual books that set out specific aspects such as engineering in its historical development.

Have a look at what these fellas did with building and architecture ... where domes come from for example ... pure engineering - and the Muslims wrote the book ... wouldn't have St Pauls without it. Or the vatican.

What a strange world it must be to have no history. No wonder they understand so little.

You couldn't even bother to read a one page wikipedia entry on science in medieval Islam that is specifically on this question.

Even spoon-feeding will not work on the militantly ignorant.

Not punks Kim - skins mate - they were into ska not the sex pistols. And they killed people and terrified little old ladies and girls on the street and they are back with their fat middle aged flag waving parties.

What are you actually trying to say Kim aside from being personaly offensive ... I've been nice to you all day.

How am I "making a fool of myself" exactly?

Geez Chris sorry to have underestimated your enthusiasm for gaining insight - I thought I'd be pushing my luck suggesting a whole page of Wkipedia for you to read.

I'll start sending you far more erudite sources for you to ignore in future.

There are and have been many christian extremists that 'hate' as viciously as islamic extremists do.

I do not accept your arrogant pronouncement about the purity of christianity FOR ONE SECOND.

Wilders is a racist.

You say "on what basis can you think that a religion that oppresses women, homosexuals and infidels is not fundamentally flawed?"

Are you talking about the Catholic Church? Is so you need to point out the cover up of child sexual abuse as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

Foolish liberal! No, the Catholic Church does not oppress these people. Yes, there have been scandals in the Church, just as there have been scandals in other organisations such as the NRL.

And excuse me, o wise one, would you please remind me what race Islam is again? Maybe I'm in the wrong place because I thought we were discussing ideas here, not people.

No you are in the right place. I see you joined The Conversation today specifically to join the debate.

How was Wilders talk? Did you meet all your "One Nation" friends there?

While I agree that most of the people attending this conference would be bigoted wankers, opposing Islam is not racism. There are myriad races that are Islamic, white Anglo-Saxon's being one of them. I don't oppose the people or their choices, but I oppose the ideas that they espouse and the pain that these ideas cause many other people. I cannot condone ignorance and moral grandstanding, hence I oppose ALL religion. That is not racism, just rejecting bigotry.

P.S. Buddhism is not a religion, but a way of life. They do not worship Buddha as a god or higher being, but merely follow in his way of life which teaches a connection to nature, inner peace and a higher conciousness through meditation.

Why not put a hold on youtr church bashing, Mike and THINK for a change. There is a fundamental difference between the ideology framing the church and islam. Stop hiding behind the moral relativistic notion that all culture is equal.

"A socialist group I belonged ...:"

LOL. I should have guessed. You are archetype of the ideologue who having had a brief dalliance with the left immediately departed permanently for the far right.

Piers Akerman, Paul Howes, Brendan O'Neill even Andrew Bolt. The list is endless.

I am an atheist. I am not a fan of any religion. But when people argue for the superiority of Western religion over Islam, or point out the deficiencies of Islam while remaining quiet about mainstream religion in their own country, it is pretty clear that it is a proxy for their racist views.

James, I dislike Islam every bit as much as I dislike Christianity and pretty near every other major religion (I can live with Buddhism and I've known a few sensible pagans too) and I would certainly like to see us grow beyond the nonsense dished out by most of them (most of which seems mainly to come down to a strange obsession with content of other people's underpants and what they choose to do with them) but that is not in any way the same as singling out a minority group for direct attack.

It is precisely because idiots like Wilders make it impossible to engage in calm, reasoned discussion about how we take the sting out of religion and get on with growing up that I utterly reject him.

There are plenty of British religion-haters like yourself, Dawkins being the forefront of it all, who'd love to live in the land of make-believe and just assume that in the UK, Muslim extremists will actually be open to your debate. Criticism of Islam is instead met with death threats, rioting, fatwas and the stupid "islamophobia" label. Dawkins himself has been called an islamophobe, and he's probably the last person you'd call an idiot.

Robert Spencer's JihadWatch blog has been hacked several times. For doing what exactly? For exposing atrocities committed in the name of Islam, in the same way you unhesitantly would expose paedophilia in the Catholic Church?

The reality is that not only does Wilders, who dares to criticise Islam, require 24 hour protection from extremists, but the socialist morons who side with Islamists are also behaving violently in denying his right to open debate. Just calling religion stupid is obviously no achieving anything. Wilders is actually being proactive about extremism, while you sit around and pretend it doesn't exist.

Miller talks about violence. The following gives some perspective.

"...most of the rambling manifesto posted by Breivik before he launched his attacks last July was not spun out of his own unhinged mind, but was drawn from the writings of notorious Islamophobes, such as Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller, the latter a regular on Fox News.

Although no one is charging that Geller had any specific knowledge of Breivik's horrendous plans, a few years earlier, in 2007, she did publish a long rant from a Norwegian (using a pseudonym) -- filled with incendiary language, visions of an Islamic Armagedon, dark threats of impending violence--that one would swear must have come from the deranged mind of Anders Breivik. Geller says no.

Many of her readers at the time, however, gave a rabid thumbs up to the anonymous writer, encouraging his apocalyptic views."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barry-lando/anders-breivik_b_1431679.html

Anonymous writer? Is that supposed to be conclusive and damning evidence? I don't buy it and I have no reason to. The left-wing have always been known to be full of s&^t.

And God, not this Breivik guy again. The same guy who's ideological views were so incoherent that he wrote about an alliance with Hezbollah. The same mass murderer who was deemed insane by several criminal psychiatrists. And guess who else he drew is ideas from? Karl Marx (27 times), Aristotle (25 times), William Shakespeare (20 times), Tony Blair (20 times), Barack Obama (19 times), Thomas Jefferson (18 times)... the list of these evil Islamophobes just goes on!

Interestingly, he mentioned Muhammad and Osama Bin Laden 36 times and 29 times respectively. Who do you think Osama Bin Laden's number one inspiration was?

Was Muhammad a mass murderer? Yes! Did Muhammad inspire many terrorists after him? Yes! Does Muhammad receive the same condemnation as Breivik? NO NO NO!

A Breivik denialist! That figures.

Matthew, anyone who can 'seriously' use the phrase 'British religion-hater' in response to what I said has departed from reality.

Not to mention the joke on legs that is Christoper Monckton. I agree though, if he is forced to leave, should he not show solidarity with his mate Cory and take that sorry excuse for a human away? Loved the comment above about how in a twist Bernardi would be that the man he thought was his ideological cohort supports the rights of homosexuals. D'oh!!!

Anthony, the reason he doesnt condemn Christianity is because, in the netherlands, it is islam that is causing violence, intolerance and social upheaval. A key difference is that Christianity accepts the separation of church and state whereas islam does not.

Oh, really, I think that you'd need to offer me something along the lines of a rational explanation for the 'Netherlander's' presence in the fifth crusade wherein a mixed army of Dutch, Flemish and Frisian soldiers led by William I, Count of Holland, took part before I could accept that the Christian churches were the bearers of enlightenment values.

Anthony, that wasnt either my point or my claim. The issue here is the means by which we, in this country, can avoid the violence and fractious social behaviour driven my those of the muslim faith in Europe. Islam is intolerant of western tolerance. We currently live in a secular society that is distancing itself from the constraints of religious dogma. To invite in an extremely totalitarian religion on the basis of some notion that 'our religions did bad' centuries (or even just years) ago seems to be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

'Our religions did bad'!! What, you haven't heard of the Buggaring Brothers of the Catholic Church? That doesn't count as 'did bad'?

Jorge, what did you guys do in the gap between 'commies' and 'politically correct'?

Felix, er, you do know that 'political correctness, correct line' and so on, were actual Commie ideological concepts, don't you?

Luke - I am afraid analysis based on history and context is wasted on the bigots. Dowling when he is not cheering for Geert Wilders is also a climate science denier - he has developed an immunity to facts.

I am so glad that your erudition has finally been on display.
A trip to Bali would certainly allow one's eyes to be opened to the fact that its predominant religion is more Hindu rather than Islam.
http://www.philtar.ac.uk/encyclopedia/indon/balin.html

Ever heard of Spain? Ever wondered where the word 'algebra' came from? Ever wondered who kept alive the classics that inspired the Renaissance when the church had pretty much shut things down?

Ever actually read the Qu'ran? I have. I don't like it much, but I still couldn't find anything quite as vile as Leviticus.

Oh No I had the shower before the shovelling ... I figgered the best way to approach this topic was smeared in excrement so I didn't notice the stench.

Have had a long look at the Saudis (our great and powerful mates in the world of Islam and oil) and what they are doing with this fundamentalist mission of wahhabism ... particularly in Pakistan where they have ploughed tens of millions into madrassas and backing the most backward and sinister forces in that backward and sinister place.

And what do we (the West) do? We sell them fighters and tanks and train their torturers. We say nothing as they crush the courageous efforts at change in Bahrain. No Arab Spring there boyo. We finance them and we help keep them in power.

Interestingly John, if you google up the term you will find that the overwhelming majority of commentary and analysis of wahhabism and salafism come from within Islam - from people who reject and depise this insidious extremism. Here's a good one: http://www.sunnah.org/articles/Wahhabiarticleedit.htm... and this from a mob of sunnis, not even shia or sufis ... who of course are the "main enemy" of these insane ratbags.

One of the tell tale signs of a closed and ignorant mind is to herd everyone you don't know anything about up into the one paddock - all Muslims think this or that ... utter rubbish. These folks live with these wahhabist fanatics. They don't need any telling from us what salafism and the Saudis mean for them.

And sadly - and correctly - they see the west as an active supporter of these feudal fanatics.

Not really Kim - unless you're suggesting that the Moors oppressed minorities in Moorish Spain ... that would not actually be true. Rather it was the Christians who did the oppression and butchery - first on the Moors, then on the Jews then on the peasantry... nasty lot. Made the moors look most tolerant and sophisticated actually. Takes a fair bit of confidence in one's rightness to set up an Inquisition.

Fortunately when one travels through Spain one is gradually immersed in Moorish culture and architecture ... becasue it was so beautiful and functional and it lives on still. Otherwise it'd all be a bit too French for my liking.

Thanks for the history update Kim... sadly I've lost all my Spanish history books from a few years studying it with the wonderful Graeme Harrison at Sydney Uni but I think you ... one of the nicest folks I've met...

Now look Kim - this goodies and baddies business is fine for CSI and Roy Rodgers but don't you think life and history is a little more complex and nuanced?

Here's a curious little scrap I just found that gives some indication of the complexity of real as opposed to imagined Spain... it's a travel guide to spain's fiestas with a bit of history thrown in ... just enough to give you a taste of the paella. http://www.spanish-fiestas.com/history/moorish-spain/

Wow, 'imperial tentacles' - you don't hear language like that outside Scientology very often! L Ron would be proud of you.

Same with all those places in Africa innit ... backward, dependent... obviously not favoured by The Lord then.

Actually one hears Leviticus and Deuteronomy quoted hatefully by just about any christian frightened by gay marriage or male homosexuality ... the OT and NT are a bit vague about lesbianism ... but we know He meant them too don't we?

Is there a Lordly form guide that tells us punters what bits of the Bible are in at the moment and what bits have been consigned to irrelevance? Is there a committee?

Interesingly there is just such a thing in the Koran and ther legal system built upon it ... some really extraordinary discussions of the notion of Jihad for instance - which of course you'd be right up with... showing how the Koran has been and is applied differently at different times and in different places. But you'd be right on all that wouldn't you Chris?

Got any spare rocks?

Graeme Harrison, Peter! i envy you. he was well regarded as a man & as a teacher. i was one of only three who enrolled for his final course. we were keen to continue, with our minute quorum, but he thought it would be ill advised - we'd have to present four seminars each (which we were keen to exert to) but should one of us be sick, once, he warned, it would he make the whole thing come undone. alas. he was highly recommended to me by his colleagues fulton, b. & dreher, r.e. did you know either of them? -a.v.

As usual, you make a good point, Peter. Unfortunately, it is impossible to distinguish between 'moderate' Islam and 'extemists'. In a western culture, in which non-muslims would be second class infidels, our 'hard won freedoms' (nice cliche, hey) would quickly vapourise. As I said earlier, I have no interest in allowing that to happen. If that means I am considered narrow minded, I dont have a problem with it. (One of the benefits of he push for renewable energy will be the slowing of western funds flowing the Saudis - hopefully we wont be funding the demise of our own culture.)

A wonderful teacher Alfred ... an infectious enthusiasm for his great love Spain and a deep humanity in his history.

I wasn't at all keen on Spanish history at first but Graeme sort of press-ganged me into his class ... a mixture of nagging, flattery and cups of tea. Later discovered he did it to everyone in his class - used to go and recruit his students based on overheard staff room discussions about who was who. Outrageous.

Our two hour seminars always ended far too soon. Quite life changing. Best bit of educating I ever got.

Bob Dreher I had some contact with ... bit hazy now. I know I liked his books.

Good teachers - great teachers - wonderful critters.

Felix, have you got anything other than sanctimonious bullshit to offer?

I'm sorry you find it impossible to distinguish between 'moderate' Islam and 'extemists' John. Getting to know a few will help.

I couldn't tell the difference between Chinese and Japanese until I'd met a few.

We only bunch stuff into homogenous heaps when we can only see the obvious or the things that make them "all" different from "us".

See most of the muslims I know here are here precisely because of what they've experienced at the hands of fanatics back home... Iranian democrats, Iraqi writers, Lebanese academics. And, if you are looking for the folks who will die in a ditch to stop Sharia or extremism it's these folks.

One of the most fatal strategic mistakes one can make in politics is to unite your opponents better than they can do themselves. If we regard all muslims as a threat - all agents of Sharia or Osama - then we put ourselves in an unnecessarily weakened position. We drive away our friends and allies.

If you doubt this John look up the government site dealing with security information and see where the effort is directed at building bridges and co-operation with the Islamic community. That is where the intel comes from.

But perhaps we should just treat them all as enemies and push them away. Just seems a bit silly and suicidal to me.

There's the rub, Peter. When you say that most of the Muslims you know fled their country because of Islamic extremism you tacitly acknowledge the very concerns that people like Wilder are raising. Surely you don’t want to import the vile practices from which they fled? I do agree with the need to build bridges, but simultaneously, I don't want to see us climbing out of the quagmire of our past straight into another system of oppression.

John these guys are Muslims too - just the wrong sort. They are victims of muslim extremists not perpetrators.

Yet this sort of thinking says they are all the same.

If that is true why all the bombs? Why do these fanatics devote most of their energy to killing muslims - overwhelmingly.

Refugees from fundamentalist Islam are an excellent insurance policy I reckon. Refugees from any sort of fundamentalism make excellent Australians - because they want something safe, free and open.

These folks do not bring muslim extremism with them John, they hate the stuff. They have seen it up close. People escaping persecution and fundamentalism of any sort are fine by me no matter how they pray.

Anyway I'm very tired so I'll sign off but have a look at some of the comments on here John. I don't think you'd be feeling too comfortable with the implicit attitudes they are putting. Most of us aren't I'll wager ... not very Australian at all.

An even more scary and really big thing:

" As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

How can anyone sleep safely in their beds knowing that there might be Christians knocking on your door demanding your surrender or forcing you to subscribe to the Watchtower.

Yahweh - my kind of God - vengeful, angry and with an eye for the ladies and other goodies. Or didn't god mean that bit either?

Meh, same dogma, different label. According to the Bible, you shouldn't be eating shellfish either, but I bet you enjoy a little bit of seafood now and then right?

Hypocritical bullshit, all of it.

Yeah right Chris ... sure you don't mean it - sure Yahweh was just kidding a bit - we don't follow that bit ... it's been made sort of redundant ... but it's still in the book innit? So we must believe it - that right? Why is it still there if it is " irrelevant"? Why have an Old Testament at all?

That's what you're actually saying isn't it Chris - that it's in the Koran so they believe it and do it - all of 'em. All the same yer muslims.

What Muslims are you talking about here Chris ... sufis? shia? those smiling faces on Kuta Beach giving folks plaits and massages?

But I do agree with you that BAD THINGS happen when christians fail to follow christ's teachings (at least what we know of them) ... just look at the attitudes here for an instance. Full of fear and hate and ignorance.

By the way ... no more Sunday picnics unless you have a gas barbie:

"While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was discovered gathering wood on the Sabbath day. Those who caught him at it brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly. But they kept him in custody, for there was no clear decision as to what should be done with him. Then the Lord said to Moses, "This man shall be put to death; let the whole community stone him outside the camp." So the whole community led him outside the camp and stoned him to death as the Lord had commanded Moses." Numbers 15:32-36 NAB

When did we give all this sedimentalism away as "irrelevant".

See an ignorant dill who didn't know any christiany types - who was just going on the Good Book - would have some concerns don't you think? Especially if they liked making a cuppa on a Sunday drive.

"Deuteronomy is irrelevant to Christianity" -- so, christian opposition to gay marriage, then, comes from the more enlightned part of the bible? -a.v.

Thanks for that Walter - it is such a sad thing to see this most tolerant and gentle of countries being besmirched by this hate-monger all over the world. He is a very suspicious character.

Also don't be too surprised that some would see Wilders as left - don't forget it was the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei after all - till Hitler cleaned out the lefties as soon as he could.

The appeal to both right and left - this ambiguity and the claimed "transcendence" of old class struggles is a critical - perhaps THE critical - element of fascist thinking and strategy.

I hope the Dutch political leaders have the courage and sense to tackle this fella and what he represents.

He could look like Assange on a dark night - why not fly him to Sweden?

Thanks for this, Peter.

I'm pretty sure that no country in the world would be happy to invite Wilders to come and live with them.

In Dutch politics, he has sadly become a major role. Left and right embrace tough stances on crime and anti-immigration to such extent that it even worries the European Human Rights Council. Yesterday the Labour minister of internal affairs pushed for an integration contract, even for EU citizens. This illustrates how mainstream the politics of mistrust have become. A growing number of people see now the EU as the enemy, which was the prime subject in Wilders' last election campaign. The EU is the next partner in crime that wants to derive us of our freedom and identity. It is impossible to argue in a reasonable manner with people who are inspired by conspiracies.

The economic and financial crisis and social unrest are very beneficial to Wilders and other far right parties in Europe, like Golden Dawn in Greece and Jobbik in Hungary. Luckily, we have not yet seen much violence in the Netherlands as in Greece or Hungary, but this could well change if this crisis continuous. The Dutch economy is shrinking and unemployment and poverty are on the rise and forecasts are extremely pessimistic.

Still, our country is wealthy and we enjoy good education and very reasonable social standards. In the last election Wilders lost 9 out of 24 seats. We have seen populist parties come and go in the last few decades. When it comes to taking responsibility to govern, they all fail. I am optimistic!

No, I have only read some passages. Have you read the Old Testament or the Torah? You will find similar passages in there.

Only religious fanatics will interpret historic writings as instructions for murder. You will find these people in many flavours all over the world. Have you ever watched the movie Jesus Camp?

Did you also know that Islamic fundamentalism was almost absent in the Muslim world until 3, 4 decades ago? But the Americans needed an ally to combat ‘communists’ and murder democratically elected people. So they provided some remote farmers with crazy ideas the toys

Did you also know that since WW2, millions of innocent people have been killed in the so called wars against communism, drugs and terrorism? Did you also know that the west is exporting billions of weapons every year to dictatorial regimes and instable regions?

There you go. World history of the past 50 years in a few sentences.

Aaaw heck Jawahar ... not fair quoting St Paul - everyone knows he was a misogynistic fanatic ... none of him would be "relevant" any more I'd reckon. Everyone just knows that don't we everyone?

St Paul was the founder of Christianity, so much so that some scholars tend to call this religion as "Paulinity" instead of Christianity:

http://www.modernghana.com/news/255492/1/paulinity-not-christianity-1.html

http://thinkndecide.blogspot.com.au/2007/06/paulinity-or-christianity.html

http://www.justgivemethetruth.com/founder_of_christianity.htm

The really smart thing Paul did was political - taking christianity from being at best a minor jewish sect (as envisaged by those who took Christ to be a "Jewish" messiah saving only jews) to a global movement where all sorts of godless pagans could join. Even blokes with intact willies. Shocking!

Helps explain why the Old Testament diminished in "relevance" ... far too Jewish.

Besides, as Jawahar points out, you can still find plenty of bigotry and mysogyny in the new testament to satisfy the nasty boys...

It was the post-enlightenment christian west, Chris - there's aslight difference, mainly caused by science and education and in spite of the dominant christian ethos - indeed, it was science and reason that taught christianity to begin to actually be christian (same way it did with early Islam and will doubtless do so again, given a little time, patience and not starting stupid fights).

I was born in Rome Italy and came here with my parents when just a teenager.While I have totally integrated and am naturalised Australian I have known many people from many different countries and all I have heard are negative and derogative comments about Australia and
australians. Some very offending such as "all Australians are so stupid without migrants they would still eat "bangers and mesh".This people I know keep to their cultural groups and don't want to have a bar of us. Some of this people wanted to convert me to Islam. I was christened in the Catholic church,it wasn't my choice,and therefore I today I have no religion whatsover.I didn't come in this country to change anything I liked as it was. There is a certain typeof migrant that want to change Australia and while publicly not saying so, in private is a different story. I am not a racist ! I am a proud Australian even with the dark stain of our treatment to the aborigine which I find abhorrent and need to work a lot to restore relations with them, Australia is still a great country and people coming here must integrate or go back where they are from,we can't have this kind of division,its creating too much alienation even among Australians old and young! that can't say anything anymore without being branded racist!I love Australia If I wanted to live somewherelse then I would leave.

Daniela a great many accusations of racism are quite simply invalid, a blatant abuse of the term and a naked attempt by the bleeding heart and big business lobbies to sensor any dissent towards their 'open borders' or 'population boosting' agendas.

I would encourage you to IGNORE these accusations and plow on with what ever it is you have to say.

Well spotted Andrew ... what is this argument about other than the White Australia Policy - "our cultural heritage" as someone put it? And quite clearly there's quite a few middle aged white men who would like it back please.

Don't forget we only ditched it in 1973 and it's taken a full 40 years for the consequences to sink in ... swarthy types, funny food and strange human sacrifices in weird buildings. It's not the Australia they signed on for.

Why do you think they spend ten pounds to come here? Ten whole pounds. God's own money.

Your tacit aim to 'dilute' the middle aged white men with hordes of immigrants will not succeed in generating perpetually increasing tolerance Peter.

All you will succeed in doing in the long term is breeding even greater intolerance and quite likely sectarian violence.

You see what you refuse to acknowledge is that xenophobia, fear or mistrust of 'other', is a universal human trait regardless of skin color.

By pushing the boundaries of societal tolerance you will acheive nothing more that ensuring increasing levels of intolerance across ethnic divides in our society.

And this sort of language.......'middle aged white men'.......suggests to me you have a mighty big chip on your shoulder that you seek to punish these 'others' for!

Xenophobia: an irrational fear of the foreign.
That's what the British were guilty of in 1939, weren't they? They were intolerant of Nazism and excluded Nazis from Britain.
They failed to recognise that they could enrich their culture by bringing into their country, people whose values were the opposite of their own. Nazis only wanted to live in peace in a Europe that they totally controlled.
The British were intolerant of Nazis, they feared and mistrusted them as the "other". Shame on them!

The White Australia policy was unjust, because none of us can choose our race. It did have a beneficial side effect for which I am very grateful.
By excluding Muslims, the White Australia Policy ensured that our lawmakers were NOT selected by voters who believed that slavery, or the marriage of prepubescent girls was acceptable. And while there was plenty of domestic violence, it was not approved of, and few voters believed that a man had a god-given obligation to beat a disobedient wife. (Sura4, 35 of the Qur'an)
Our lawmakers were not selected by people who believed that, while rape should be punishable by death, rapists should be immune from prosecution unless four male witnesses were willing to testify against him. Our voters did not believe that a woman who complained of rape should be punished harshly for adultery, unless of course she had four male witnesses to back up her story.
Our lawmakers were not selected by voters who believed that a woman's legal testimony was worth half of a man's.
In Australia, we have one vote each and we are free to believe whatever we want to believe. For this reason, we should be very careful of whom we select to join in our democracy.