The attraction of political apathy

Late January spells hot and hideous weather, the TV full of rubbish and the saddest of legacies left behind by Little Johnny Howard: stores full of flag crap and bastions of hypocrisy like Dick Smith vying to control definitions of “Australian”. (For the record it involves making a fortune from selling imported electronics and later becoming a bitter patriot flogging counterfeit Vegemite).

January also means it’s slow news time. Really slow news time. And slow news means that craptastic nonsense like boobgate gets traction and a story about the most desirable traits in men and women piques my interest.

Firstly, given that roughly 72% of my income gets spent on shampoo and conditioner, obviously “presentation” exists as permanent whitenoise for me. There have however, been occasions when that niggle has become a cacophony. I’ll recount three.

One. I was 24, writing my PhD, and stumbled across some research that reported that 24 was apparently the age that women were most attractive. That stat of course, was far less devastating than the 24-year-old woman quoted in it: she realised that she looked as good as she ever would and yet she still hated herself.

Two. Just before Christmas last year the Fairfax Beauty Beat blog ran a post that included the line “any woman over 30 worth her hard-earned disposable income has had it done.” It being Botox.

Three. Last night a female friend and some bloke I’d never met shared a table. We were talking about age and he asked me mine. I answered, and chirpily he volunteered that I “looked really good for 32”.

So last night’s failed compliment and waking to this morning’s Dick Smith horror movie meant that reading the RSVP.com.au research on desirability could have proven my downfall.

On the list of attributes that men are apparently looking for in a lady friend, I don’t have any. Not a one:

No strong political beliefs
Blonde hair
Green eyes
Social/occasional drinker
170cm tall
Works in advertising/PR/media
Non-smoker

Okay, so I don’t really smoke: but reading that list and I desperately wanted to start.

I could lie and write that it was my copious quantities of self-love that ended up rendering that whole piece of research laughable. Alas, I’m as insecure and self-loathing as the next academic. Rather, it was the list of traits most desirable in men that truly neutralised the nightmare:

Swinging voter
Grey hair
Green eyes
Social/occasional drinker
190cm tall
Works in real estate
Non-smoker

Once upon a time I was 29. I had just slept with him – that exact “most desirable” man, right down to him being nearly a foot taller than me – and I remember watching him reattach his cuff-links and realising that I bloody hate swing-voting real estate agents; if I’m ever to sleep with another then I damn well want to be paid. That way I’d at least feel less politically compromised.

I’m never visually seduced so grey hair and green eyes are irrelevant to me: I’m stuck on the voting business. Men want women who are politically apathetic and women want men who are politically fickle.

WTF?

And that’s the nugget of gold that’s keeping me buoyant.

Who the hell are these people?

What kind of man wants his partner not to have any strong political beliefs?

What kind of woman is happy for her bloke to be so void of values that he’ll vote for just about anyone?

Who would have thought that such questionable-quality research could make me so happy?

Sure, the social scientist in me could highlight all kinds of sociological explanations for the findings – if not also spotlight the obvious methodological flaws – but I’m only interested in the takeaway: that men who I don’t like don’t like me. Yeah, I think I’ll live.

70 Comments

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Stephen John Ralph

carer

I suggest you take up apiary - cos beauty is in the "I" of a bee holder. (boom boom)

One of my favourites (unlike the last one not mine)..............she had beauty that was skin deep - scrape away the veneer - more veneer.

4 months ago report
Theo Pertsinidis

Theo Pertsinidis is a Friend of The Conversation.

ALP voter

Look at a persons profile and take an educated punt :-)

Anger is like fuel. If you spray it around and somebody lights a match, you've got an inferno. But if we can put our anger inside an engine, it can drive us forward.

If democracy is to be built… it is necessary not just for the public to trust their politicians, but for the politicians to trust the public.

4 months ago report
1. Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Senior Lecturer at University of Melbourne
  
  In reply to Theo Pertsinidis
  
  I'm not sure if I fully grasp your point, but I'd argue that you can have very strong political beliefs - I do "politics" as my full-time work - but I rarely bother getting angry about it any of it. I'd argue that the two can exist very, very separately.
  
  4 months ago report
Russell Hamilton

Librarian

"What kind of man wants his partner not to have any strong political beliefs?"

I think the word 'strong' is the giveaway.

4 months ago report
1. Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Senior Lecturer at University of Melbourne
  
  In reply to Russell Hamilton
  
  Which only makes it all the abhorrent.
  
  4 months ago report
2. Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Senior Lecturer at University of Melbourne
  
  In reply to Lauren Rosewarne
  
  All the *more abhorrent. (Teach me for replying after 1am) ;)
  
  4 months ago report
Erin Stark

PhD student, sessional academic, writer

I have no idea who the hell these people are, because I'm sure not one of them.

I mean, I've got some of the traits that men apparently find most desirable: green eyes. Social/occasional drinker. 170cm tall (actually 175; I might be considered a giant by Most Men). The rest though? Nuh uh.

As for the men, I can't really think of anything worse. And apparently, that explains the fact that I'm single.

I find strong political views - or at least the ability to strongly debate politics…
Read more

I have no idea who the hell these people are, because I'm sure not one of them.

I mean, I've got some of the traits that men apparently find most desirable: green eyes. Social/occasional drinker. 170cm tall (actually 175; I might be considered a giant by Most Men). The rest though? Nuh uh.

As for the men, I can't really think of anything worse. And apparently, that explains the fact that I'm single.

I find strong political views - or at least the ability to strongly debate politics - incredibly attractive. I don't care if they're not the same views as mine; I just want to be able to have a good, intelligent argument about Shit That Matters.

I will concede that this has proved to be a little unattractive to men. I'm usually okay until I start talking about something other than vapid, surface-level bar talk. It pretty much happens the second I say "PhD"; the eyes glaze over, and they automatically assume that I am either a] boring or b] an insane nerd (and perhaps I am both. That's okay with me!).

I think some (note the SOME) men find women with strong opinions and intellect to be daunting. In many ways our base human instinct kicks in, and many men don't want to be challenged by women. At the same time, many women just want a man who can Do Things: a man who sells houses (people will always want to sell houses, and real estate suggests that they are smooth talkers, and lots of ladies like that); a man with grey hair (better that he goes grey before he goes bald, right?); a man who makes up his mind as he goes along when it comes to politics, suggesting that he's open to convincing.

I guess we insecure and self loathing academics tend to gravitate towards each other for a reason - partly because we're often as boring and stubborn as each other, I suspect. All I know is that I'm okay with the fact that I don't fit the status quo, especially when that's the kind of man I'm expected to want to attract.

4 months ago report
Peter Ormonde

Peter Ormonde is a Friend of The Conversation.

Farmer

There's been a bit of talk in the dark hours on radio about multiple or parallel universes of late - perhaps part of the January global hiatus. Conceptually difficult and a tad mindboggling ... suitable fare for the festive season apparently.

So prompted I was looking about the property looking for evidence of ten dimensional multiverses when it dawned on me.. polling - conclusive evidence of a world just beyond our ken.

It's the only logical explanation - have you ever been surveyed? know…
Read more

There's been a bit of talk in the dark hours on radio about multiple or parallel universes of late - perhaps part of the January global hiatus. Conceptually difficult and a tad mindboggling ... suitable fare for the festive season apparently.

So prompted I was looking about the property looking for evidence of ten dimensional multiverses when it dawned on me.. polling - conclusive evidence of a world just beyond our ken.

It's the only logical explanation - have you ever been surveyed? know anyone who has? Where do these "normal" people who feed such science actually come from? Do you actually know anyone at all who thinks like that? Who has even bothered to have that thought occur to them? Who would have even conceived the question let alone the answer?

Where are these women who find Tony Abbott sexy? Who think global warming will be good for their tan? These folks who have taken shallow to new depths?

Obviously not from my universe Ms Rosewarne - yours either by the look of it.

Ipso facto. the proof is in the polling.

All I can do is take comfort that as I grow older and more settled in my ruts I am becoming less and less "normal" with every passing poll.

4 months ago report
1. Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Senior Lecturer at University of Melbourne
  
  In reply to Peter Ormonde
  
  Yep, for years I've been making this point to my students about polling: up until last year I'd never, ever been part of a political phone poll.
  
  I must have said that a few too many times though: last year I got three calls in one week about my voting intentions. From the same bloody person, it's worth noting.
  
  4 months ago report
2. Peter Ormonde
  
  Peter Ormonde is a Friend of The Conversation.
  
  Farmer
  
  In reply to Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Face it Ms R ... you had him hooked this pollster - with your "Tony who?", your encyclopedic knowledge of cosmetics and conditioners, your flawless identification of the labels adorning Julie Bishop in Question Time.
  
  My money is on some hapless lovelorn student ... trying to make you feel included, a little more "normal".... more "one of us". At least normal for the 7th dimension. It'd be "them" rather than "us" though wouldn't it?
  
  Did you find yourself becoming shallower after each phone call? Did you catch yourself slyly checking out the rear view of real estate agents strutting their stuff? Did you start watching ACA? Did you feel the tidal tug of the herd?
  
  Cut the wires Ms R - before it's too late.
  
  4 months ago report
3. Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Senior Lecturer at University of Melbourne
  
  In reply to Peter Ormonde
  
  Forget *watching* ACA - the uni's media office knows that the 2013 Big Dream for me is me actually *on* ACA or Today Tonight.
  
  4 months ago report
Dale Bloom

Analyst

""Firstly, given that roughly 72% of my income gets spent on shampoo and conditioner, obviously “presentation” exists as permanent whitenoise for me.

This appears to be a major problem for many women in our feminist society: Trying to obtain the unobtainable, and wasting their income in the process.

It reminds me of so many rich men's wives, who so often appear tight lipped and grim faced.

One would think they were totally oppressed, but so often they live in McMansions, and drive shiny new 4 wheel drives to the shopping centre to get the latest fashions, or fill their houses with whatever is being advertised in the lattest edition of "House and Garden".

It only shows money does not buy happiness, and the modern woman is not necessarily satisfied with what is advertised to them, or anything else for that matter.

4 months ago report
Stephen John Ralph

carer

Dale - I resent that........you didn't mention a hairdresser once.

May I also add that I am sick to death of those pouty females on ads for shampoo,cosmetics, clothes etc etc etc etc.

If I see another long and languorous look from Jennifer Hawkens et al, I will throw up.

4 months ago report
Mark O'Connor

Author

Lauren, you're an amusing blogger, and sometimes illuminating, but a living national treasure like Dick Smith you are not. The enormous generosity he has shown over the years, and to a huge range of good causes, puts most of the rest of Australia's rich (many of them far richer than him) to shame. It's not just the amount he has contributed but the genuine generosity of heart with which he has thrown himself into so many good causes that makes him one of Australia's most popular.

I'm not sure if it was some kind of jealousy of his popularity that motivated your oddly-toned sneer at him this morning, but I suspect that I am not the only reader who was unimpressed.

4 months ago report
1. Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Senior Lecturer at University of Melbourne
  
  In reply to Mark O'Connor
  
  The only way I can cope with your comments is by operating under the assumption that you're being sarcastic.
  
  For the record, I did wake at 2am and changed the bit where I originally called him a moron to a "bastion of hypocrisy" because I thought it best play it safe and not taunt the Dick Cult followers.
  
  But no, not jealous. Just harbouring a good deal of contempt for the hideous hypocrisy of the likes of him and Gerry Bloody Harvey. I'm resisting elaborating else sounding too angry. And we know the gents so don't like an angry woman ;)
  
  4 months ago report
2. Mark Amey
  
  logged in via Facebook
  
  In reply to Mark O'Connor
  
  I tend to agree with Lauren's comment re: Dick Smith. He became a multi-millionaire importing cheap electronics from Taiwan, then China. He then had the gall to have a go at the rest of Australia for not 'Buying Australian.'
  
  4 months ago report
3. Mark O'Connor
  
  Author
  
  In reply to Mark Amey
  
  Mark Amey, That's a more coherent accusation than Lauren's, but is it in fact true? It is an accusation that has begun to appear in the Murdoch Press since Dick Smith had the courage to accuse Murdoch of distorting the news, but should we be repeating it simply because it might feel good to feel superior to a noted philanthropist?
  
  The only time I have heard this criticism referred to Dick Smith he replied that he began as a manufacturer of electronic goods and do-it-yourself kits, and as a retailer…
  Read more
  
  Mark Amey, That's a more coherent accusation than Lauren's, but is it in fact true? It is an accusation that has begun to appear in the Murdoch Press since Dick Smith had the courage to accuse Murdoch of distorting the news, but should we be repeating it simply because it might feel good to feel superior to a noted philanthropist?
  
  The only time I have heard this criticism referred to Dick Smith he replied that he began as a manufacturer of electronic goods and do-it-yourself kits, and as a retailer for preference of goods from other Australian electronic manufacturers. However after the tariffs on imported goods were abruptly removed, Australian manufacturers of electronic goods were rapidly wiped out and all electronic shops, not just his, came to be primarily purveyors of imported electronics from countries where wages were much lower. It seems he believes that Australia cannot compete as an electronics manufacturer, but does believe that many of its food industries can and should be kept competitive with imported products; and has donated his own money to help keep some of them alive.
  
  I can't claim to know the ins and outs of this argument, but then I would guess from Lauren's impatient and impetuous blogiste style ("the hideous hypocrisy of the likes of him and Gerry Bloody Harvey", indeed!) that she doesn't either.
  
  Accusations of hypocrisy are surely unfair, granted that there is no necessary contradiction in what he is arguing; and there is abundant and long-standing evidence of his generosity of spirit.
  
  The other reason I found Lauren's sneer at Dick Smith amusing and a little offensive is that her own techniques of self-advertisement are very similar to some of Dick's media stunts, including the tweaking of sexual taboos. Let us hope that there turns out to be a similar generosity at work,
  
  4 months ago report
4. Mark Amey
  
  logged in via Facebook
  
  In reply to Mark O'Connor
  
  'The only time I have heard this criticism referred to Dick Smith he replied that he began as a manufacturer of electronic goods and do-it-yourself kits, and as a retailer for preference of goods from other Australian electronic manufacturers.'
  
  As a teenager in the 70s, I purchased these kits, which were stamped 'Made in Taiwan'. I would suggest that the Australian made phase of the Dick Smith kits was very short.
  
  Likewise, when he founded his 'Dick Smith' brand of groceries to be nothing more than 'Greens' brand (yes, an Australian brand) repackaged as his own, but priced at 15 to 20 % more. I see this as nothing more than ripping off the Australian consumer, under the guise of Dick Smith's brand of patriotism.
  
  Likewise, I can't give you the ins and outs of the argument, but, as a consumer who is old enough to have lived through all of this, I find Dick Smith's call to patriotism through 'buying Australian' to be rather disingenuous.
  
  4 months ago report
5. Mark O'Connor
  
  Author
  
  In reply to Mark Amey
  
  "[Dick Smith's groceries...priced at 15 to 20 % more. I see this as nothing more than ripping off the Australian consumer,"
  
  You can't have it both ways Mark Amey! If patriotism required that Dick Smith as a young entrepreneur should have gone broke by selling Australian manufactured electronics at twice the price (granted the huge difference in wages at that time between Australia and Taiwan), then you should admire him now for trying to persuade Australians that it's worth paying a few cents more to keep local growers in business.
  
  Of course you have to be realistic to stay in business, but it's clear that Dick Smith has a social conscience and has always tried to do good with his money. Ask David Hicks, or the chap he helped ransom in Africa recently, or . . . the list goes on. There is no reason to doubt he took up the Australian Foods campaign in his retirement and out of altruism, or to doubt his statement that any profits he makes from it go to charity.
  
  4 months ago report
6. Mark Amey
  
  logged in via Facebook
  
  In reply to Mark O'Connor
  
  'You can't have it both ways Mark Amey!'
  
  How am I having it both ways? The bloke became a multimillionaire selling cheap Asian products in Australia, then his Dick Smith company rips us off by repackaging food, that's sitting right next to Green's brand, at a profit. If he was genuinely altruistic he would have mounted an advertising campaign to support Green's foods!
  
  4 months ago report
7. Neville Mattick
  
  Grazier: Biodiversity is the key.
  
  In reply to Mark Amey
  
  Just jealousy in this thread !
  
  Walk a mile in my shoes, selling 60 Tonnes of near organic produce per year, family sustainable operation since 1880, now looking for work and still operating the farm as a loss operation (debt free I might add too) - walk a mile in my shoes.
  
  All power to Dick Smith and I am glad he made you jealous !
  
  Sting in the tail, all profits to charity, 4.8 Million Dollars so far the ad' said, lighten up you lot.
  
  I hope you don't go hungry, Dick's campaign is much more about what is not going to be left to feed Australia in a era of Global Freight and Climate Change.
  
  Adjust to the concept of South American Beef landing cheaper in a Boeing than Aussie product as we all melt down to the lowest common denominator.
  
  Bear in mind also that food is now costing 12.5% of average income compared to 50% in 1960 and my produce auction prices (selling) have not significantly moved since 1995 - walk a mile in my shoes.
  
  4 months ago report
8. alfred venison
  
  records manager (public sector)
  
  In reply to Neville Mattick
  
  good points, well made, Neville Mattick. like you said, its about "what is not going to be left to feed australia in the era of global freight & climate change". that & the charity thing got me to try out his range. don't care for the peanut butter, nor for the vegemite alternative. but i've been coming back to the jams for a couple of years now.
  
  so i buy dick smith jams for the charity factor. and the local production factor you mention, too. two good upfront reasons.
  
  but i also buy…
  Read more
  
  good points, well made, Neville Mattick. like you said, its about "what is not going to be left to feed australia in the era of global freight & climate change". that & the charity thing got me to try out his range. don't care for the peanut butter, nor for the vegemite alternative. but i've been coming back to the jams for a couple of years now.
  
  so i buy dick smith jams for the charity factor. and the local production factor you mention, too. two good upfront reasons.
  
  but i also buy this range of jams because i remember the business back in 2009 when dick smith, together with then greens leader, now commadore, bob brown, came up between them with the money necessary to free an australian hostage from kidnappers in somalia; something neither has made public relations capital on since.
  
  and i also support this initiative with my modest purchasing power because i remember how dick smith once forked out some of his own money so that legal bills from the gunn's action wouldn't bankrupt bob brown & cause him lose his senate seat. dick smith is more than a me generation public relations environmentalist, first solo helicopter over the antarctic, or whatever. in supporting bob brown, and the greens, in the way that he did, dick smith was putting his millionaire's money where his wilderness conservationist mouth is.
  
  would there were more millionaires like him, putting their money to work endowing their country with enduring social legacies, instead of the lowbrows we have who shame their country, always striving to beat down their taxes, or lobbying to get someone else - ie the taxpayer - to fork out for losses consequent to their 21st century business model backwardness - yes, i'm thinking of you gerry harvey. and gina & clive, who could endow a chair of poetry or two somewhere, at least one of them could, in addition to beating back their taxes.
  
  and, for goodness sake, they should have run dick smith's australia day ads - they can broadcast "pulp fiction" on free-to-air, but they get all antsy, and concerned for public mores, over a few innuendos in an innocuous ad. what a world. -a.v.
  
  4 months ago report
Stephen John Ralph

carer

Absobloominglutely - lay off the Dickster.

He may not be the biggest Dick in the world - but he's our Dick.

When it comes to taking Dick to task, expect the worst.......so now the balls are in your court.

4 months ago report
Michael Shand

Michael Shand is a Friend of The Conversation.

Software Tester

To be fair I think almost everyone falls short of what is found attractive both men and women

When I read the list of what traits women find desirable in men - I didnt tick one box, ehhh, what can you do

4 months ago report
Stephen John Ralph

carer

Michael - one word - CHANGE

to be shallow is be desirable

4 months ago report
1. Michael Shand
  
  Michael Shand is a Friend of The Conversation.
  
  Software Tester
  
  In reply to Stephen John Ralph
  
  Lol, yeah good advice but I think I'd rather be single
  
  4 months ago report
Mat Hardy

Lecturer in Middle East Studies at Deakin University

I get the lists of desireable traits...except the professions. Real estate? PR? Some of the most vacuous, self-important and dishonest ways to earn a living that exist!

4 months ago report
1. Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Senior Lecturer at University of Melbourne
  
  In reply to Mat Hardy
  
  I think it might be the car. Real-estate agents often drive what some people would consider nice cars.
  
  I'm sure if there are people who select partners based on ludicrous factors like height and the extent to which they don't care about politics, then there'll be folks who pick based on automobile.
  
  Oh the humanity.
  
  4 months ago report
2. Peter Ormonde
  
  Peter Ormonde is a Friend of The Conversation.
  
  Farmer
  
  In reply to Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Ouch Ms Lauren... You have triggered the memory of an woman I knew at the height of the flashy eighties. She was rather partial to a fella who was a very nice bloke as far as I could see. But - tearfully - she dumped him because his car - an old second-hand BMW - was too down-market and suggested a willingness to settle for second best. And she felt second rate in the car park where her friends could see. I kid you not.
  
  Worse, she explained all this too him in detail over a final date- like a management report on a failed job applicant... she thought he deserved some feedback.
  
  Those other dimensions and universes are looking better moment by moment.
  
  4 months ago report
3. Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Senior Lecturer at University of Melbourne
  
  In reply to Peter Ormonde
  
  Mind you, variations of the comment "wow, do TVs that old still work?" is made by nearly every man who has ever visited my place - even the politically decent ones! ;)
  
  4 months ago report
4. Dianna Arthur
  
  Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
  
  Environmentalist
  
  In reply to Lauren Rosewarne
  
  If you get a really young one they'll think you are 'oh so retro'.
  
  :P
  
  4 months ago report
5. Tim Niven
  
  Tim Niven is a Friend of The Conversation.
  
  IT Manager at KJ Risk Group Pty Ltd
  
  In reply to Lauren Rosewarne
  
  I haven't owned a TV in years. I quite enjoy telling people that, the surprise never seems to get old. The funniest question I get, and continually get, is: how do you know what's going on in the world? Which is a question I continually ask TV watchers myself...
  
  4 months ago report
6. Tim Niven
  
  Tim Niven is a Friend of The Conversation.
  
  IT Manager at KJ Risk Group Pty Ltd
  
  In reply to Peter Ormonde
  
  I met someone recently, one of the first things she said to me was "I couldn't stay with my ex-boyfriend because he drives a mini." I tried to explain that he was probably a corvette man at heart. Alas to no avail - I couldn't get rid of her.
  
  4 months ago report
7. Chris O'Neill
  
  Telecommunications Engineer
  
  In reply to Tim Niven
  
  "The funniest question I get, and continually get, is: how do you know what's going on in the world?"
  
  Funny and frightening/depressing.
  
  4 months ago report
carolyn fisher

life traveller

Great comments people. Got me off to a smiley start for the day here on the sunny west coast.

4 months ago report
Alan Kesby

Retired

We all love these social research surveys. Fills in for news in the no news season.

I don't find such surveys particularly helpful, since they contain the views of people who think the survey is worthwhile.

4 months ago report
Lyn Gain

Social science lecturer

Great fun Lauren. I think I can honestly say that I've never given one to a real estate agent, unless I've forgotten one or two. Certainly it's the silly season, but it has its moments. Did you see the article in yesterday's SMH about the goat who was arrested for eating flowers at the Museum of Contemporary Art. I ask because my friend Caroly Barkell was the magistrate who said that he might have been there for an icecream when she overturned the fine.

4 months ago report
1. Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Senior Lecturer at University of Melbourne
  
  In reply to Lyn Gain
  
  I must have missed it but I am a sucker for dog stories. There was a labrador on one of the news earlier in the week - shown helping a puppy learn how to use the stairs in a house. If we're going to have Summer-fill then I'm very happy to watch dogs! And pandas. I do love pandas.
  
  4 months ago report
Dianna Arthur

Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.

Environmentalist

Lauren

I think "no strong political beliefs" is code for "not a feminist".

As for the rest of the male preferences; I'm a couple of centimetres too short, have blue/green eyes, don't drink, yet I still attract men who should know better.

Advice to men, just because I smiled at you doesn't mean I want to have hot steamy passionate sex with you - ever.

Noted for its absence on either wishful list: INTELLIGENCE, both intellectual and emotional.

And whatever happened to GSOH?

As for the female preferences - who did they ask - clearly not me!

4 months ago report
1. Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Senior Lecturer at University of Melbourne
  
  In reply to Dianna Arthur
  
  Yep, like you, I read the men wanting women without strong political convictions as being a request for no mouthy feminists. But the women? Surely they're smarter to want a bloke they can talk to!
  
  It wasn't actually a survey though. My understanding is that the Perfect Man/Woman has been constructed from the most common list of attributes sought by people using the dating website RSVP.com.au. Hence the skewed results.
  
  4 months ago report
2. Dianna Arthur
  
  Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
  
  Environmentalist
  
  In reply to Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Both sexes require GSOH & communication skills the morning after... don't they?
  
  4 months ago report
3. Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Senior Lecturer at University of Melbourne
  
  In reply to Dianna Arthur
  
  I'd say during as well. But maybe that's just me...
  
  4 months ago report
4. Dianna Arthur
  
  Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
  
  Environmentalist
  
  In reply to Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Possibly Lauren, I can think of a few relevant words that could be said during.... but... don't ever laugh.
  
  Never good.
  
  4 months ago report
5. Lyn Gain
  
  Social science lecturer
  
  In reply to Lauren Rosewarne
  
  A dating website! Well that explains everything.
  
  4 months ago report
6. Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Senior Lecturer at University of Melbourne
  
  In reply to Dianna Arthur
  
  I laugh at everything. *Everything*. A risk they all must take, I'm afraid!
  
  4 months ago report
7. Dianna Arthur
  
  Dianna Arthur is a Friend of The Conversation.
  
  Environmentalist
  
  In reply to Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Humour or lack thereof, is definitely the deal breaker.
  
  Colour of hair or no hair: Irrelevant
  Type of car: Irrelevant
  Occupation: Irrelevant as GSOH has already screened out anyone in the finance sector (and most geologists).
  
  4 months ago report
8. Dale Bloom
  
  Analyst
  
  In reply to Dianna Arthur
  
  Yes I would agree that "no strong political beliefs" is code for "not a feminist"."
  
  Only the most masocistic, limp wristed, jelly for brains male would want to go on a date with a feminist, but it is now extremely difficult to find a female who does not have a favourite word, which is the word Ï", and they do not want to talk about themselves. And then talk about themselves. And then talk about themselves. And then talk about themselves. And then talk about themselves. And then talk about themselves.
  
  As if they were so important or interesting.
  
  And listening to their talk about themselves, one realises that most of what they have done in their lives has occurred inside four walls, and rarely have they ever done anything outside of four walls.
  
  In fact, they were totally self-centered, mundane, dull things who spent far too much time thinking and talking about themselves, and spent far too much time in front of a mirror.
  
  But I digress.
  
  What are your political views.
  
  4 months ago report
Fred Pribac

logged in via email @internode.on.net

Whatever happened to Ken ad Barbie anyway?

4 months ago report
1. Peter Ormonde
  
  Peter Ormonde is a Friend of The Conversation.
  
  Farmer
  
  In reply to Fred Pribac
  
  They do the news on channels 7, 9 and 10 every night Fred.
  
  4 months ago report
Stephen John Ralph

carer

Hi Fred

they both had plastic surgery.

4 months ago report
Dennis Alexander

Australian National University

Yeah, the lists trouble me too. Firstly, green eyes are not common and usually, but not exclusively, go with red hair (from strawberry blonde to chestnut). Second, grey hair on men usually, but not exclusively, signals age around 40+ (I know, some go grey much earlier, but not that many). So, those surveyed don't seem terribly bright to me. Third, both lists leave out that quality which in every other survey I've seen was most important: a sense of humour. For men, this list amounts to GREY (BLAND) with green contacts and it isn't much different for women - BEIGE (BLAND) with green contacts. Probably an apt description on current culture: beige-grey with artificial colouring.

4 months ago report
1. Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Senior Lecturer at University of Melbourne
  
  In reply to Dennis Alexander
  
  Ah, but it's beige *plus* political apathy.
  
  Good lord, what a date that'd be ;)
  
  4 months ago report
2. Russell Hamilton
  
  Librarian
  
  In reply to Dennis Alexander
  
  Perhaps 'grey' means "owns house and car, and doesn't have young children".
  
  4 months ago report
Chloe Adams

writer

The way I see it now, more positively I may add, is that being older has provided me with the freedom to engage in pursuits I choose.
While I'd modify my view on relationships and say that it's never wise to be so 'free' sexually, the exposure to mating rituals can only bring the ridiculous expectations to the fore. Women who opt for the 50 Shades of Grey styled subservience make that choice (despite my frustration for womankind) and they take on that problem, as for the rest of us, we are free…
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The way I see it now, more positively I may add, is that being older has provided me with the freedom to engage in pursuits I choose.
While I'd modify my view on relationships and say that it's never wise to be so 'free' sexually, the exposure to mating rituals can only bring the ridiculous expectations to the fore. Women who opt for the 50 Shades of Grey styled subservience make that choice (despite my frustration for womankind) and they take on that problem, as for the rest of us, we are free from the baggage that is attached to, what essentially is, the insecure male of the species.
Only insecure men desire women with no opinions or intellectual lives and that's okay with me. I've learned that I've better things to do with my time than attempt to condition or educate them.

Two pertinent social observations I've made:

Women are forever conditioned to view their lives with respect to the men in their lives. [so are set up to travel the see saw of cognitive discord: to agonise, second guess, etc]
Men are conditioned to consider their place in the world [a much better idea, no?]

Of the two, I decide to opt for the latter. This insight occurred when I was in my early 30s and I haven't looked back.
The biggest lie that women are told [apart from Edward Bernays' massive deception of 'feminists' into smoking way back in the day as a marketing professional, ie propagandist] is that the sexual revolution somehow freed them. In some ways, yes, but on the whole are we really free?
Ever since sex came to the fore, swaggered into the open, the pressure on women to be uber consumers of all goods and services that aim to make them look 'good' has risen.
Me, I kind of feel sorry for today's young women who try to sell pole dancing lessons as legitimate fitness classes.
So I'd say that not all men want women are certain way, but rather that we want ourselves a certain way because we've been psychologically conditioned by the betrayers (our female peers) to think that we can always improve our sexual/physical selves and how this improvement is the most important improvement.
Women's bodies aren't just sexual objects, but political objects and many women (I'd dare say more women) are responsible for the proliferation of this view than men.

4 months ago report
Peter Sommerville

Scientist & Technologist

An amusing piece Lauren. But personally I would like to see the actual numbers behind the RSVP survey. Boring maybe but a lot of social research is a wank, especially the conclusions drawn.

Personally, I am not a swinging voter, I do have grey hair, I have blue eyes, enjoy more than the occasional social drink, I am 180 cm, I do not and never have worked in real estate, but I am a non-smoker. I suspect very few would actually fit the traits in men profile. Likewise the traits in women.

Even more importantly is the population on which the so-called survey based.

Wanky surveys yield wanky data, and when analysed by wanks, wanky results.

Cheers

4 months ago report
Jason Only

Interested Bystander

Works in real estate !!!
Yeh when I grow up I want to change the world.
Or maybe I'll sell property cause that's what the ladies like.

4 months ago report
Pat Moore

gardener

A lot of tizzy fluff & nonsense concerning the nonsensical lives of media zomby makeovers Ken & Barbies looking for one another on RSVP. Who cares?

Concerning your story tag though re these survey-subject- men's preference that no (strong minded feminists) need apply...one would expect that in qualifying for fake Ken's fake attentions, obviously enough, blonded hair, saline/silicon t&a, fake tan & green contact lenses fit the bill. Compliant living dolls don't often have a feminist outlook…
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A lot of tizzy fluff & nonsense concerning the nonsensical lives of media zomby makeovers Ken & Barbies looking for one another on RSVP. Who cares?

Concerning your story tag though re these survey-subject- men's preference that no (strong minded feminists) need apply...one would expect that in qualifying for fake Ken's fake attentions, obviously enough, blonded hair, saline/silicon t&a, fake tan & green contact lenses fit the bill. Compliant living dolls don't often have a feminist outlook? And 50 Shades is probably their kind of 'literature'. And judging from a doco seen recently on ABC2, some apparently straight men are going for (USAmerican marine-corrupted culture) Thai 'ladyboys' who are doing the hot babe thing more skillfully than females can do it....just add plastic surgery & hormones! Curiouser & curioser? This sounds like your sort of investigative territory Lauren?

However i too, like Mark O'Connor, take umbrage at your aspersions cast against Dick Smith. His efforts towards Australian owned production & products are genuine. So called "free trade" US neoliberal economic rationalism has destroyed independent economies & enlisted them to the enriching benefit of US globalized corporations... "hoovering" them up. Major case in point is US owned Kraft taking over & selling us our vegemite. That is a total anathema to a lot of Australians and that is why they are preferring to buy Dick's vegemite etc. Dick has also played a prominent role, along with Mark O'Connor (thanks Mark) in bringing public awareness to the hazards of the so called "Big Australia", another capitalist politiking exercise to increase the size of their markets to the detriment of our quality of life and environments. So a lot of Australians are actually very thankful for Dick's efforts. In other words Dick Smith is a cultural hero, so don't slag off at him.

Perhaps real politics might be a more useful writing exercise than the next Ken beds Barbi episode?

4 months ago report
1. Dale Bloom
  
  Analyst
  
  In reply to Pat Moore
  
  Pat Moore,
  There is no such thing as a strong minded feminist.
  
  You will also find that the author rarely has one good word to say about any male (Dick Smith included) but of course I wouldn't be hinting at what she is.
  
  4 months ago report
Kim Darcy

Analyst

Don't be sad, Lauren. There are plenty of men out there who like their ladies with a side dish of political ravings. But you are more likely to find them offline attending actual political events, even as members of actual political organisations. Come pre-selection time, you won't find any single Labor boys lurking on adultmatchmaker. They are too busy playing that ALP game - Sex and Preselection. My advice to you would be to join Emily's List.

4 months ago report
1. Craig Minns
  
  Self-employed
  
  In reply to Kim Darcy
  
  "My advice to you would be to join Emily's List."
  
  Yeah, there won't be any men around, but lots of women prepared to pretend...
  
  4 months ago report
Nick Kenny

Recruiter

Sorry? Fickle? How about attuned to the changing political landscape, and able to decide each three years which party represents the best interests of the individual and society? Swing voters are far from mindless. However, blindly supporting a particular party regardless of any changes in leadership, competency, policy, or circumstances is mindless. Stick to supporting a footy team if that's the case.

4 months ago report
1. Peter Ormonde
  
  Peter Ormonde is a Friend of The Conversation.
  
  Farmer
  
  In reply to Nick Kenny
  
  Nick... swinging voters have a quaint and touching faith in the system I reckon - this notion that there is a competitive market in the election - where brands A and B compete for relevance - that the system works and you can trust 'em. That Tony or Julia can and will cut taxes, spend heaps, balance the budget and not cut anything from the budget. The impossible promised to the gullible by the untrustworthy... but no, not this time... this time it'll be different... you reckon?
  
  The other problem I have with swinging voters is the basis on which the decision is made.
  
  See I reckon voting is about what sort of society we want to live in what our government says about us as a country - but the basis of the swinging vote is all too often "what's in it for me?" - as if they believed 'em.
  
  4 months ago report
2. Lyn Gain
  
  Social science lecturer
  
  In reply to Peter Ormonde
  
  I totally agree Peter.
  
  4 months ago report
3. Russell Hamilton
  
  Librarian
  
  In reply to Peter Ormonde
  
  Peter, do you think that governments eventually tend to go bad? That there's a sort of corruption that develops when people have their hands on the levers of power for too long? At which time, even if you traditionally vote for that party, you might think that they needed to be kicked out?
  
  I don't know much about NSW politics, but it seemed to have reached that stage for the ALP at the last state election. In 2008 the ALP was voted out in W.A. probably partly because we seemed to have had too many ministers appearing before the Corruption and Crime Commission. Back in the 80's it was the W.A. Inc. affair.
  
  4 months ago report
4. Peter Ormonde
  
  Peter Ormonde is a Friend of The Conversation.
  
  Farmer
  
  In reply to Russell Hamilton
  
  I think a government can get tired ... or at least the individuals in it get tired. Worse, I know that a lengthy period of incumbency tends to attract a certain type of creep slippering his way into our political life.
  
  I'm actually a big fan of limited terms for politicians whether they're in government or not. Being a politician should never be allowed to become a career.
  
  To be honest I think any democracy isn't just reliant on polling days - but includes the degree of public scrutiny…
  Read more
  
  I think a government can get tired ... or at least the individuals in it get tired. Worse, I know that a lengthy period of incumbency tends to attract a certain type of creep slippering his way into our political life.
  
  I'm actually a big fan of limited terms for politicians whether they're in government or not. Being a politician should never be allowed to become a career.
  
  To be honest I think any democracy isn't just reliant on polling days - but includes the degree of public scrutiny and accountability exercised through preselection. We must get a lot better at doing this - not just to exclude and weed out the Thompsons and Slippers but to ensure there is a continuous turnover of new talent and ideas.
  
  2 contiguous terms for everyone. Max. Maybe come back after a spell back out here. That way we will always have something like an energetic and motivated Cabinet no matter who wins government. And I wouldn't mind seeing minority governments made compulsory... does them the world of good.
  
  4 months ago report
5. Tim Niven
  
  Tim Niven is a Friend of The Conversation.
  
  IT Manager at KJ Risk Group Pty Ltd
  
  In reply to Nick Kenny
  
  Fickle is often how politicians and their strategists view swing voters.
  
  A wonderful book came out of my homeland around New Zealand's 2005 election. The National Party were up to some intriguing stuff. So much so people within the party felt the need to leak emails, reports, meeting diaries, etc - so the public could know. Book's called "The Hollow Men" by Nicky Hager - ABC here did a cracking show based on the themes, by the same name. They also made a docco in NZ. Even though the leader…
  Read more
  
  Fickle is often how politicians and their strategists view swing voters.
  
  A wonderful book came out of my homeland around New Zealand's 2005 election. The National Party were up to some intriguing stuff. So much so people within the party felt the need to leak emails, reports, meeting diaries, etc - so the public could know. Book's called "The Hollow Men" by Nicky Hager - ABC here did a cracking show based on the themes, by the same name. They also made a docco in NZ. Even though the leader of the party Don Brash (who refers to swing voters as "the punters out in punterland") resigned a couple days after the books publication, it remains largely ignored - instructive in itself.
  
  One of Brash's main political strategists was Peter Keenan - a radical right activist, Centre for Independent Studies guy. In the strategy emails he often cited David Horowitz, US Republican strategist (they long ago gave up being a political party, in any sense in which you mean, as indeed National did): 'there is no natural conservative majority. But according to Horowitz, the art of "political war" does not involve changing your policies to those the public agrees with, but sticking to your policies and creating a majority by "political strategy".' A large portion of the leaked material in the book is all about how to they were using PR and "political strategy" to hide ("inoculate" was the word they used) their real policies (tax cuts for the rich, privatisation of health and education systems, allowing US nuclear submarines back into NZ, etc, etc) which, they explicitly knew would only win them about 10-12% of the vote - and instead use "political strategy", such as dog whistling - the same Sydney-based PR men that instructed John Howard in the same tactic were involved.
  
  Boil it down and what you're talking about is manipulation: hide what you really want to do to the country, use "strategy" such as benefits for the retired, dog whistling for the rednecks, middle-class welfare, etc, to win the vote, then stick the country with your real agenda.
  
  4 months ago report
Judith Olney

Ms

Lauren, I enjoyed your take on this very much, thanks.

Its always fascinating reading the comments, although some are entirely predictable, and less interesting because of this.

Peter Ormonde, you never fail to elicit a smile from me, love your work :)

I think the survey is rubbish, but perhaps because most people I know neither trust or like real estate sales people, or PR people for that matter, RSVP has popped in this dodgy survey to give them a boost. If they appear to be what women…
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Lauren, I enjoyed your take on this very much, thanks.

Its always fascinating reading the comments, although some are entirely predictable, and less interesting because of this.

Peter Ormonde, you never fail to elicit a smile from me, love your work :)

I think the survey is rubbish, but perhaps because most people I know neither trust or like real estate sales people, or PR people for that matter, RSVP has popped in this dodgy survey to give them a boost. If they appear to be what women find attractive in the survey they may get more dates.

Apart from the green eyes, (I've got lovely vivid green ones), I'm the exact opposite of the survey results, but have never had a problem with attracting men, of all sorts. I find the most interesting ones, (those worthy of a second date), have always been the ones that challenge me intellectually.

I wonder if people are really that choosy when it comes to who they are attracted to? I have never had any specific set of characteristics, and love a bit of diversity.

4 months ago report
Pat Moore

gardener

Thanks for an interesting post Tim Niven providing an insight into the corrupted bodypolitic of the subjeced provinces/Anglosphere's of the modern US corporate empire in the NZ example. Ms Rosewarne's popculture piece seems to be dialectically taking a serious turn?

Like the wife/husband swapping swingers of the 70's? is swinging voting/party hopping in the interests of a healthy & committed political party/voter relationship? Of a real democracy? Or does it prostitute that primary relationship…
Read more

Thanks for an interesting post Tim Niven providing an insight into the corrupted bodypolitic of the subjeced provinces/Anglosphere's of the modern US corporate empire in the NZ example. Ms Rosewarne's popculture piece seems to be dialectically taking a serious turn?

Like the wife/husband swapping swingers of the 70's? is swinging voting/party hopping in the interests of a healthy & committed political party/voter relationship? Of a real democracy? Or does it prostitute that primary relationship as in taking a halfhearted non-decision, a moral copout? In a MSM mediated infotained sphere all is not as it seems. On the conservative/neoliberal side of politics occulted conglomerates of vested interests, their media & political representatives under the banner of individual freedom, vie for the swinging vote with policy information lite, none at all or dogwhistle tidbits to seduce the 'battler' into swinging. In behaving like consumers making a purchasing choice swinging voters encourage false advertising. They encourage this market-based US-originating culture of political pimping whereby eventually the actual politicians/parties become the manipulated puppets of the power conglomerates who form the actual but shadowed government.

Queensland swung (manipulated) voters delivered the neoliberal bloc a landslide. That they were voting AGAINST Labor government (forced firesale) limited privatisation (after taxpayer finances were screwed by the neoliberal controlled US "GFC", a billion $ IBM Health Dept pay system apparrent fraud now under a Newman government investigation & exhorbitant interest on international debt) demonstrates just how absolutely duped they were....the Labor government itself as well as its former voters. Hijacked, ransomed & ransaked..public wealth being hoovered to the top, not privately created wealth trickling down to the bottom at all. They voted for massive privatisation masquerading under false pretences...such is the corruption of swinging "democracy". The tricky fox gets the silly chooks. The US economic & political system is constructed upon the sucker & the loser. Happy voting!

4 months ago report
alfred venison

records manager (public sector)

are you going to do a piece on julia gillard's new spectacles? the bespectacled woman trope in pop culture & political transgression? -a.v.

4 months ago report
Emma Anderson

Artist and Science Junkie

Sounds like those men want to date models, and those women want to have a home and date their fathers.

I don't know which is more disturbing.

Lauren, you will surely live just fine. Go to your local Centrelink and scout for the fuzzy haired man in the tweed, I hear there's been cut backs lately and the nutty professors, fulfilling all criteria bar political apathy and career, will be looking for some southern comfort *wink wink nudge nudge* Share notes. Submit for Peer Review. Win your Ignobel.

Or not.

(yes I know that it was just an aggregate and that's not a real profile!!!)

4 months ago report

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