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23 January 2013, 1.15am EST

Kochie, the boobs and the feminist bait

I’m a vegetarian who’s served as an apologist for KFC. I abhor the elevation of athletes to God-like status, but sure, I’ve defended Warnie. I actually quite like David Koch so writing a defence of him wouldn’t be impossible. And I’ll do a little of that. Along with spotlighting his el cheapo publicity stunts.

First, let’s backtrack a little.

The Kochie/boobgate scandal has been raging for a couple of days now and I’ve consciously resisted getting involved. I blame my fears of the mommy bloggers. Not because I have anything against them, of course, but being childless, my broaching parenting is done with both reluctance and great, great caution. That, and I really hate the feminist vs. feminist / mothers vs non-mothers wars: actively playing into that game bores me and I so hate the catfight frame.

But I did a couple of interviews on the topic today – in essence, I “broke my silence” – so I may as well write the piece.

I am, without question, supportive of those mothers who chose to breastfeed. Hell, I’m quite okay with non-mothers breastfeeding too. “Go for your lives,” as my grandmother would say: suck, be sucked, all good by me; I won’t ever question your right to offer up the nip'.

I happened to be watching Sunrise when Kochie made his comments. He was talking about a woman who had been breastfeeding at a public pool and he used the words classy and modest in a criticism of her act.

Classy and modest are inflammatory words to me – undoubtedly more so to militant mothers – and he was always going to get a rise. A rise I’m thoroughly convinced was orchestrated, but that’s a point I’ll return to later.

I don’t find breasts offensive. I have a set, a great number of us do, and they really should appear in one of those HSBC ads captioned by “food/sex/disease”: they are more value-laden than any other body part and this makes them a perpetually complicated display.

While I may be all good with the boob, some people are much less so. And yet those people – who very well might be criticised as boring or retrograde or fuddy-duddies – have just as much a right to use public space as every nursing mother. In turn, they need to be free from images that they find offensive.

I was talking to a friend about this topic over lunch and she remarked how rare it is to see public breastfeeding. I’m not sure that it actually is all that rare: I’m more sure however, that most mothers during public feedings hold their babies against their bodies without much booby fanfare. I don’t think it’s about them being classy or, God-forbid modest, rather them simply taking into consideration their environment.

And we’re back to Kochie’s point.

Sure, he used some stupid words – deliberately, but I’ll get to that point in a minute – but he was simply trying to contend that one’s surroundings are worth thinking about. Are worth considering.

Isn’t this what I do every time I listen to my music via earphones rather than a boombox?

Is that really such a scandalous idea?

Ahh, but it was so scandalous because Kochie constructed it to be so. I’d argue that he deliberately used words that would inflame. He went on to read aloud text messages from those aggrieved and continued talking about the topic the following day. He kept stirring the pot until the nursing mothers felt compelled to lactate outside his studio.

I should divulge that I don’t actually have a problem with any of the Sunrise tactics: Kochie and Co can do whatever they like to promote their show and viewers can respond accordingly. What I do have a problem with however, is feminists taking the bait.

Last year in this space I wrote about the lingerie football stuff. About how this crap only ever makes papers because feminists naively keep buying into these carefully stage-managed faux-debates. By allowing Kochie’s comments to inflame, protesters are both validating his low-brow techniques and helping deliver him more publicity.

Who wins? Kochie solidifies his fan base: those who love him continue to see him as a host who dares to “go there”; those who hate him never watched the show anyway so he loses nothing.

I didn’t want to touch this topic; I’ve now devoted some 800 words to it: I too have bitten. But I think it’s really, really important that we feminists pick our battles carefully. Mine today centre on encouraging media literacy and familiarisation with the art of PR. Kochie and the Boobs are much less interesting.

22 Comments

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Hope Kearney

Hope Kearney is a Friend of The Conversation.

Self employed

Thank you for this focused article which also puts the misogyny speech into its context. Playing the feminist card is easy, thinking through the consequences requires much deeper thought. I wonder when we women will reach a collective decision to cease regarding being female as a disability?

4 months ago report
Laura Coulter

Practitioner

Lauren, you have put together a thoughtful article which illustrates why so many people still don't "get it". I mean that very respectfully, because it illustrates to public health educators and campaigners where we still need to "do" the education. So for this I thank you. The fact that you are a non-mother is irrelevant: there are many non-parents who actually get it, just as there are many parents who simply never get it (Kochie being a case in point).

One very common argument used is that…
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Lauren, you have put together a thoughtful article which illustrates why so many people still don't "get it". I mean that very respectfully, because it illustrates to public health educators and campaigners where we still need to "do" the education. So for this I thank you. The fact that you are a non-mother is irrelevant: there are many non-parents who actually get it, just as there are many parents who simply never get it (Kochie being a case in point).

One very common argument used is that while people have the "right" to breastfeed (and to be breastfed) in public, others have the "right" not to be offended. However (to my way of thinking) this is a little bit like saying that people who are homosexual have a right to be in a relationship with someone they love, as long as they don't display it in public and offend some people. Or the person with a severe physical disability should not walk down the street because their drooling and grunting "offends me".

The problem with this argument, you see, is that by upholding your "right" not to be offended is actually coming at a cost to the basic health and well-being of another group of people based on a shared characeristic (and, on that note, many councils and public facilities do in fact have laws or rules which prevent you playing your music too loud, because that, too, does impact on the health and well-being of others).

Sorry, but someone's right to "not be offended" by a bit of boob, is not more important than the basic human rights or health needs of entire populations of people - particularly those who are unable to speak for themselves.

The other very difficult issue with breastfeeding is that, women in Australian (and a few other "westernised" societies) have to deal with the most extraordinary array of barriers to breastfeeding: much of it grounded in mythology and this sort of weird "debate" that happens in the media, online and, as you say, in mummy-circles themselves. The problem is that the first year, and particularly the first few months is (psychologcally) a very vulnerable time for many new mothers and fathers, who can feel confused and overwhelmed by the mixed messages they receive. Also, take into account the fact that breastfeeding is actually really, really hard for many women. So, comments that "breastfeeding in public is only OK if it is classy and modest" (as if it is some form of soft porn show for people to watch while they drink their coffee) is really, really dangerous to many women and their babies at a time when things are often really, really hard.

Breastfeeding does make a huge difference for babies. When it is properly supported, it also has a huge positive impact on the health of women too. This does not mean that women should be "made" to feel guilty if they bottle feed (for whatever reason - and there are many, many good reasons why this might be the case). But there is no question in the world that babies and women do better when breastfeeding is enabled and properly supported.

And, the point is this: breastfeeding sometimes looks like a nicely posed photo. But sometimes it is messy, painful, awkward and needed at the most inconvenient times. Sometimes it is darn hard to get that shawl over the shoulder, the baby latched on, and to manage your two-year old toddler all at the same time, under the haze of sleep deprivation. Most women want to breastfeed, but often make the so-called "choice" not to or to stop sooner than they want because they get neither the physical support, the specialist education nor the cultural welcoming that they need to do this practice. This is why Kochie's comments have provoked such a (much-needed) reaction.

Militant? Maybe. Call me whatever names you like. But for the record, I am a mother, and I both breastfed and bottlefed my babies. One thing I can guarantee you is that, no matter what you do, you can't win: someone, somewhere will judge you for what you do and none of it is actually helpful to mothers, fathers and least of all their babies.

4 months ago report
1. Colleen Elso
  
  Postdoctoral Fellow
  
  In reply to Laura Coulter
  
  I was going to write a comment here but Laura I couldn't have said it better myself!
  
  4 months ago report
2. Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Senior Lecturer at University of Melbourne
  
  In reply to Laura Coulter
  
  Thanks for taking the time to write such a comprehensive reply – you raise some really interesting points; I was actually thinking about the whole offense/public homosexuality topic while I was writing. That all said, I’d take really strong objection to your point on education: as though with more education we’ll all come around to your way of thinking. This kind of position – in any context – is really problematic. Nonetheless I am really grateful for your food-for-thought response. Cheers.
  
  4 months ago report
3. Laura Coulter
  
  Practitioner
  
  In reply to Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Fair enough, I can see that is how it might be read - and I apologise as it was not intended to suggest that everyone should be "educated" around to thinking in only one way. What I was referring to was the notion of public health education at the social level - in the same vein that vaccination education and non-smoking education is thought about. In the context of breastfeeding, your argument highlights to me that we still have a lot of work to do in communicating that a gainfully employed bosom is completely acceptable...even if you can't be "modest" and "classy" about it.
  
  4 months ago report
4. Kim Darcy
  
  Analyst
  
  In reply to Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Laura
  
  As soothing as your post was, I would be remiss to respond in any other way, than straight up. Laura, you're doing it wrong. This story has nothing to do with Richard Koch. The story is these growing hoardes of women hating their bodies, forming gangs, unable to leave Twitter 24/7 in case they miss being "offended", or even for somebody else. Why doesn't it surprise me thst Mia Freeman is the ringleader. These mill-expression boobs, and their mass boob-ins are just copy cats of those English…
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  Laura
  
  As soothing as your post was, I would be remiss to respond in any other way, than straight up. Laura, you're doing it wrong. This story has nothing to do with Richard Koch. The story is these growing hoardes of women hating their bodies, forming gangs, unable to leave Twitter 24/7 in case they miss being "offended", or even for somebody else. Why doesn't it surprise me thst Mia Freeman is the ringleader. These mill-expression boobs, and their mass boob-ins are just copy cats of those English TrannieTwitterTroll's leading their lefty feminist Guardian pals down to The Guardian people to screech how offended they were by Julie Burchill and Suzanne Moore.
  
  It is a story about a woman, who breal the cardinal rule - never go to a public pool, which unfortunately, we''ll never get wise to what happened.. All we know is what Murphy Brown, the Courier Mail type typed.,And even that just folds contradiction on contradiction.
  
  Our Murphy Brown has spoken to only one party who did witness the events - Lianna Webster - and one party who did not - A Moreton Bay Regional Council spokesperson. But as Murph clearly never spoke to them ether (which would explain, why Murphy didn't get their name, fish around for some more clarity), the most powerful protagonist in this whole shadowy ghost family, whom Regional Council Spokesperson reckons, "A Moreton Bay Regional Council spokesperson reckons a fourth party - "staff" the Bribie Island Aquatic Leisure Centre - had "received a 'complaint' from this other family about the breastfeeding.
  
  Given Murph hasn't given us any reason to think otherwise (and don't worry if he did, he would), isn't it just as likeley that one of this ;family' would have been a woman and mother herself? While that does not necessarily mean anything - after all, she could have been Vinegar Tits or the Freak, in 2013, it makes me suss.
  
  Again, we are never told the first staff member's name., we just knows she's a woman, and she bowls up to Laura. But we don't know what prompted her to act. We can presume that as part of her pool training, and her experiences living in the modern, public breastfeeding, especially in such a large, outdoor, public area like a pool. is cool, and very uncool, and unlegal to get snotty over. So, something has over-ridden the staff member's natural inclinating to let sucking baby's suckle.
  
  Here's my theory:
  
  1. While never even suggesting mom that pool patrons do not have the right to feed their kids, there are signs - some stick diagrmas, which patrons see the moment they walk int the pool, and definitely, the ladies dressing room. Those messages would be helpful suggestions a young mother might want to consider should her baby get hungry, and that those instructions were designed to do no more and secure the comfort of mum and bub, should things go tits-up/.
  
  2. Could the 'complaining' family actually been communicating something else to the statf: :can somebody please give that woman a hand over there, she;s all on her onw, with her little kids 6 & 5in the pool unattended, as she answered little Rori for some A-grade boob there and then? Perhaps, the family suggested staff members might want to give Liana a hand?
  
  The way the scenario's been painted by our journo, Murphy, I was instantly concerned whether or not the kids' floaties had enough air in them. Perhaps the staff member was also concerned, and rather than say bluntly, "you're not allowed to feed there, you have to refrain from feeding out in the open," was really trying to reassure the concerned 'other family', save Kylan and Jadan from borrowing, while at the same time nudging Lianna's mother's brains to recall the white fluffy towels and creche advertised when she first entered the pool. Perhaps reasonably, Lianna was in no mood for such convoluted goodwill and care for her comfort, that she turned straight into Harry;s Law, and yr "discrimination" befre "adios.
  
  Our Murphy Brown meets Carl Bernsten from the Courier Mail needs to track down this 'other family', and the chick who allegedly gave Lianna her marching orders.
  
  But you know what the cruellest part of this whole saga is. There's actually a family whose name are Lianna, Kylan, and Jadan.
  
  4 months ago report
Lorna Jarrett

PhD candidate, science education; Physics teacher

I think Laura Coulter has hit the nail on the head with her explanation of why the rights of breast - or bottle - feeding parents must come before those of the "offended'. Which brings me to another recent piece of news.

Has anyone else noticed the parallels between this incident and Twnety10 being asked to remove their banner at the Parramatta River festival because it contained "offensive language"? For those who don't know, Twenty10 provide support services for young people outside the gender…
Read more

I think Laura Coulter has hit the nail on the head with her explanation of why the rights of breast - or bottle - feeding parents must come before those of the "offended'. Which brings me to another recent piece of news.

Has anyone else noticed the parallels between this incident and Twnety10 being asked to remove their banner at the Parramatta River festival because it contained "offensive language"? For those who don't know, Twenty10 provide support services for young people outside the gender / sexuality mainstream, and their families. The local paper reported it here:

http://www.parramattasun.com.au/story/1247764/gay-group-defends-right-to-display-banner-at-parramatta-river-festival/?cs=1245

I read the banner closely and couldn't see any offense language (the article has a photo - if anyone can see the offending word, maybe they can point it out). So I'm guessing that the complaints weren't about the words on the banner but their meaning, ie: that the complainers were bigots and homophobes. And rather than explain to these people that the point of Twenty10 is to protect young people from exactly that kind of bigotry, Council defended the bigots' right to avoid being offended.

Of course, this meant further disempowering and condemning the people Twenty10 advocates for; protecting the rights of the social in-group and further marginalising the already-marginalised.

4 months ago report
Mark Amey

logged in via Facebook

Lauren Rosewarne just admitted to watching 'Sunrise'!

Seriously, though, as I pointed out to some poster who was upset about women (well, it's usually women) breast feeding in public, you've probably been within a couple of meters of a breast feeding mother hundreds of times during your life, and not realised it.

By the way, Kochy really is a dick.

4 months ago report
1. Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Senior Lecturer at University of Melbourne
  
  In reply to Mark Amey
  
  Fortunately I've never been very worried about public confessions which exhibit my complete lack of cool ;)
  
  4 months ago report
2. Mark Amey
  
  logged in via Facebook
  
  In reply to Lauren Rosewarne
  
  Lauren, to me you are the embodiment of 'cool'!
  
  4 months ago report
3. Kim Darcy
  
  Analyst
  
  In reply to Mark Amey
  
  Oh, I picked Lauren out one of Kochie's girls pretty quickly. She's certainly no Karl Stefanovic fan girl!!
  
  4 months ago report
Stephen Prowse

CEO at Wound CRC

While correctly pointing out that David Koch's comment are nothing more than a publicity stunt, maybe the author misses the real issue. I think the real issue is, does the stunt discourage breast feeding, particularly among people who are influenced by David Koch and Sunrise? Are people less likely to breast feed due to his views? I do not know the answer but if it is yes, he deserves all the criticisms he gets and more. There are enough real issues to discuss without generating false controversies for the sake of publicity where there may be some detrimental outcomes.

4 months ago report
Joe Gartner

Tilter

I made the mistake of commenting in the pro-modesty camp on the other Theconversation page.....
It is possible to be pro-modesty and pro-breastfeeding. It is also possible to be mindful of offending other's sensibilities without setting up a false dichotomy of 'people don't have a right to be not-offended'.
This discussion is not about 'rights', mothers have a right, that is legally sanctioned, to breastfeed, people do not have a right to be non-offended I don't see why these issues are even…
Read more

I made the mistake of commenting in the pro-modesty camp on the other Theconversation page.....
It is possible to be pro-modesty and pro-breastfeeding. It is also possible to be mindful of offending other's sensibilities without setting up a false dichotomy of 'people don't have a right to be not-offended'.
This discussion is not about 'rights', mothers have a right, that is legally sanctioned, to breastfeed, people do not have a right to be non-offended I don't see why these issues are even pertinent to the debate..

I don't have a right to object, prevent, complain harrass or offer any other objection to a woman breastfeeding in a cafe in front of me. I get that, I also don't want to stop women breastfeeding.
If a mother wants to breastfeed I'd just prefer they did it in the most modest way possible; which, by the way, most women seem to achieve. I fail to see why there is a problem with this... after all I'd expect these women would want similar consideration from me, I guess they'd prefer for me not to leer at them, prefer me to wear a shirt, not fart etc. they have no right to expect me to not do any of these things, yet by social convention I do. Why is the reverse such a problem to discuss?

4 months ago report
1. Laura Coulter
  
  Practitioner
  
  In reply to Joe Gartner
  
  Joe - might I say, I reckon you have expressed your thoughts really well. I really do get that some people are upset by seeing someone breastfeed or - as you gently say "I'd just prefer they did it in the most modest way possible". Can't take issue with that.
  
  However, men do take their shirts off all the time (at the swimming pool/ beach), people do fart in public all time time (the frail aged, children)...and people do leer all the time (in "adult" establishments")..in fact there are many situations…
  Read more
  
  Joe - might I say, I reckon you have expressed your thoughts really well. I really do get that some people are upset by seeing someone breastfeed or - as you gently say "I'd just prefer they did it in the most modest way possible". Can't take issue with that.
  
  However, men do take their shirts off all the time (at the swimming pool/ beach), people do fart in public all time time (the frail aged, children)...and people do leer all the time (in "adult" establishments")..in fact there are many situations in which doing something that is normally "inappropriate" (such as exposing a fleshy breast) is culturally sanctioned for special groups or in special situations (such as a nursing mother who is feeding a hungry baby or comforting a distressed one).
  
  I just don't know if "most women manage it modestly". Don't know if any research has been done on this, or how you would define or measure "modest:".
  
  I can only speak of my own experience and from within my own circles, that most of us, manage to "do it" in ways that we think is "modest" most days when we are in public..despite the extra work, effort and sometimes even discomfort and distress that it causes us to pander to other people's sensibilities. But there are some days when it just doesn't happen for us that way, and everything is left hanging out (which, by the way, yes, you are right, I would prefer you didn't leer when it happens).
  
  This is why it is such a problem as you say - because comments that "it" should be done "modestly" are neither helpful nor suggest any understanding of what is actually needed by women to sustain breatsfeeding (support - as opposed to judgement).
  
  4 months ago report
2. Joe Gartner
  
  Tilter
  
  In reply to Laura Coulter
  
  Thanks for the reply, Laura. You're absolutely right in stating that:
  "... (such as exposing a fleshy breast) is culturally sanctioned for special groups or in special situations"
  This current discussion is, I believe, happening because we are in the midst of cultural change in respect to breastfeeding. In particular, cultural norms as to where a breast should be exposed and for how long and for what reason.
  I am sure that I am a member of a diminishing group of dinosaurs that is happy for breastfeeding…
  Read more
  
  Thanks for the reply, Laura. You're absolutely right in stating that:
  "... (such as exposing a fleshy breast) is culturally sanctioned for special groups or in special situations"
  This current discussion is, I believe, happening because we are in the midst of cultural change in respect to breastfeeding. In particular, cultural norms as to where a breast should be exposed and for how long and for what reason.
  I am sure that I am a member of a diminishing group of dinosaurs that is happy for breastfeeding to occur, just not particularly excited about breastfeeding as a public display of maternity.
  My reason for writing is not really to express dissatisfaction at public breastfeeding, in fact I am quite sanguine about it, more so an objection to the fact that somehow I am not qualified to have an opinion as to what constitutes modesty in its practice.
  You have an opinion, and the big F feminists have an opinion, about public farting, I have an opinion about public breastfeeding. What constitutes propriety, modesty, politeness is a public negotiation, of which this is part.
  I am glad to have my viewpoint considered, thanks.
  
  4 months ago report
Dale Bloom

Analyst

This could become similar to"I am woman, hear me roar", and it now becomes "I am woman, see me breastfeed in public".

I think the breast is much more significant and symbolic for women than it is to men.

For many women, the breast is used as a symbol of motherhood and being a "Real Woman", although few women will ever use their breasts for beast feeding in our feminist society.

4 months ago report
1. Mark Amey
  
  logged in via Facebook
  
  In reply to Dale Bloom
  
  No, not many use them for beast feeding.
  
  4 months ago report
2. Dale Bloom
  
  Analyst
  
  In reply to Mark Amey
  
  Yes, I would agree. Breastfeeding is one of the least likely things a modern woman is likely to use her breasts for.
  
  I think it is a situation of "As a modern woman, I Demand The Right To Breastfeed In Public, although I think breastfeeding is so primitative and bothersome, I am totally unlikely to breastfeed any where or at any time."
  
  4 months ago report
Lynne Newington

Lynne Newington is a Friend of The Conversation.

Researcher

I can't see why a comment such as suggesting a little discreteness when breast feeding publicly has caused such a hullabulloo!
There's been no suggestion it Shouldn't be done for petes sake!
It's a lot of nonesense, absolutely.

4 months ago report
Peter Sommerville

Scientist & Technologist

Thanks Lauren for an amusing yet insightful article.

Mind you I am getting a little tired of feminism and all this gender stuff. Isn't it time we moved on?

4 months ago report
Mat Hardy

Lecturer in Middle East Studies at Deakin University

"I really hate the feminist vs. feminist / mothers vs non-mothers wars..."

Try teaching Middle East Politics for a living!

4 months ago report
Chloe Adams

writer

"By allowing Kochie’s comments to inflame, protesters are both validating his low-brow techniques and helping deliver him more publicity.

Who wins? Kochie solidifies his fan base: those who love him continue to see him as a host who dares to “go there”; those who hate him never watched the show anyway so he loses nothing."

You're absolutely right.

Frankly, I'm surprised how Koch went from being a financial reporter to a host on a morning television show, and now recently, some idiot spokesperson on women's issues.
This is why morning television is a joke in Australia and why networks go for cheap stunts (like this one involving Koch) to drum up attention.
Initially I was hopping mad, thought Koch an idiot (and still do),but then I thought he can try all he likes, I won't be watching his show and never did watch it.
If he was my father, I'd be embarrassed for him and I'd probably give him the silent treatment for a year. If I was his wife, I'd be uber embarrassed.

4 months ago report

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Kochie, the boobs and the feminist bait

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22 Comments sorted by

Hope Kearney

Hope Kearney is a Friend of The Conversation.

Laura Coulter

Colleen Elso

Lauren Rosewarne

Laura Coulter

Kim Darcy

Lorna Jarrett

Mark Amey

Lauren Rosewarne

Mark Amey

Kim Darcy

Stephen Prowse

Joe Gartner

Laura Coulter

Joe Gartner

Dale Bloom

Mark Amey

Dale Bloom

Lynne Newington

Lynne Newington is a Friend of The Conversation.

Peter Sommerville

Mat Hardy

Chloe Adams

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