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Rudd vs Abbott people’s forum: experts respond

Kevin Rudd and Tony Abbott have met in a “town hall” style leaders' debate at the Broncos Leagues Club in Brisbane. Abbott and Rudd took questions from an audience of 100 undecided voters on issues from…

Kevin Rudd and Tony Abbott have faced off in a second debate - this time, a ‘people’s forum’ in front of 100 undecided voters. AAP/Lukas Coch

Kevin Rudd and Tony Abbott have met in a “town hall” style leaders' debate at the Broncos Leagues Club in Brisbane.

Abbott and Rudd took questions from an audience of 100 undecided voters on issues from public service cuts, industrial relations, the environment and asylum seekers.

In his closing statements, Rudd pointed to Queensland state premier Campbell Newman breaking his promise not to cut public service jobs, as a harbinger of what would face Australia if an Abbott government were elected.

Abbott asked the audience - and watching voters - if they felt Australia could afford another three years of ALP government, claiming to have been a “competent and trustworthy” senior minister in a “competent and trustworthy” Howard government.

It is expected there will be one more encounter between the leaders in a public forum before the September 7 election.

The Conversation had a panel of experts watching and analysing the forum. Their responses follow.


Tom Clark, Senior Lecturer in Communication at Victoria University

Careful what you pray for! After the first encounter ten nights ago, many complained the format produced “no real debate,” too little critical engagement between the speakers, a lack of good old biff and tangle.

Tonight we got the B side of the cassette: tedious bickering about each other’s untrustworthy opinions on side-issues. Forty minutes in, they had only managed to dispute their way through opposed non-answers to six audience questions.

Rudd was much more energetic than last time, though, and Abbott was conspicuously nastier. At one stage he openly slagged: “Does this guy ever shut up?” Not that he forsook his own chance to squeeze a comment in immediately afterwards.

Given the dysfunctionality of the conversation, the vagueness of the arguments exchanged, it is those personality impressions that will stay with people from this debate. So it is a points victory for the incumbent prime minister tonight. He needs more of them, and bigger ones, in the days ahead.


Denis Muller, Senior Research Fellow in the Centre for Advancing Journalism at University of Melbourne

It had a far more genuinely democratic feel that the National Press Club debate, which felt like the old pollies-and-journos club having a boring exchange in a suitably dimly lit room. This debate, in a brightly lit forum with people in hi-vis jackets and jumpers flung over their shoulders, felt real. The absence of lecterns brought the leaders closer to the audience and added to the conversational nature of the exchange. Abbott in particular seemed to open up in this less formal setting.

What was also clear, from watching the on-screen representation of viewers' reactions in the form of the “worm”, was the voters detest negativity. This was evident when Abbott or Rudd bagged the other side. By contrast, when the leaders were civil with each other, their worm line went up. It was also clear that Labor had more credibility on climate change, and the immediate reaction of the worm suggested that this is still a very live issue. However, Rudd really scored with his commitment to marriage equality and his undertaking to bring in legislation early in the life of the new parliament. This too appears to have high salience among voters.

Rudd’s closing remarks also rated consistently well. Abbott’s was also well received but showed little dips every time he went negative.


Sean Rintel, Lecturer in Strategic Communication at University of Queensland

As Kevin Rudd responded to a follow-up during the debate, a frustrated Tony Abbott asked: “does this guy ever shut up?”

The #auspol and #ausvotes Twitter users reacted in interesting manners. At first, in a somewhat unusual fashion, many Twitter users treated this a breach of respect towards Kevin Rudd and “conduct unbecoming” of a potential PM to be. For example:

@es_awesome: “Abbott told the PM to shut up? Does he have any sense of propriety?”

@clare1mb: “The real @TonyAbbottMHR emerges…”

@TheAviator1992: “Abbott "Does this guy never shut up!” WHAT A DISGRACE!!!"

In response, Abbott supporters attempted to turn the reason for Abbott’s comment into a problem for Rudd. For example:

@kaylenegerster: “No I will not shut up folks. I will waffle on with BS as long as I want @KRuddMP”

But then the concept of Abbott telling famous people to shut up began to be the focus of snarky comment. For example:

@peterjhinton: “Abbott meeting Chancellor Angela Merkel "does this sheila ever shut up?! laughs

Other famous figures included the Dalai Lama, Barack Obama, and Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono. Finally, Twitter users started to retweet the ABC’s video moment in which Kevin Rudd retorted to “shut up” that such a response was “standard debating technique”. So, in terms of “duelling memes”, it would appear that Rudd won the day in the first people’s forum.


David Holmes, Senior Lecturer, Communications and Media Studies at Monash University

“It’s not about journalists tonight, but it’s about you the people,” was Sky News Australia political editor and forum presenter David Speers' opener as he pointed out that a people’s forum with both leaders present was a first for an election campaign in Australia.

Some anticipated that this debate might have be risky for either leader without a controlled studio situation. But the 100 invitees solicited by Galaxy Research were very restrained, and it was much more of a Q&A style of exchange, where the audience questions were pre-solicited, wide-ranging and orderly.

There were few pans to the audience to monitor reactions and no spontaneity or political emotion from the audience as the entire room listened attentively. The only flare-up was an intervention by Abbott to Rudd “does this guy ever shut up” at the 30 minute mark, which drew laughter from the audience, after which Rudd retorted: “we are having a discussion, mate”.

Rudd looked uncomfortable in his opening address but less so in critique of Abbott, such as on the question of whether a Coalition government would make cuts to health and other services, where he had command of the figures (this time without notes). Although Abbott was more frequently called to account he had a self-confident style, but Rudd had the arguments on the night. For example, Abbott presented himself as bush-loving conservationist, while Rudd convincingly explained that no environmental progress could be made without addressing climate change.

Rudd’s closing critique of the Queensland Newman government was a clever pitch to turn around polling in Brisbane seats, and suggest that Abbott’s promises were as trustworthy as Newman’s were before he was swept into power. Abbott, ran through his signature policies, and that they would be delivered by a strong “trustworthy government”: a government that “says what it means, and does what it says”.


Fabrizio Carmignani, Associate Professor, Griffith Business School at Griffith University

It was an interesting debate, with a good variety of questions that covered some of the critical dimensions of the policy space. I had the impression that the strategy chosen by the two leaders in this debate reflected their respective position in the polls. Rudd is behind and therefore must attack.

Accordingly, he tried to challenge and put Abbot under pressure quite aggressively, especially at the beginning. Abbot, instead, stuck to his script, knowing that with his current lead in the polls the most important thing is to avoid big mistakes. Nevertheless, I think that Rudd tonight won. In particular, he managed to expose what is probably the main weakness of the Coalition: the lack of clarity on future budgetary decisions. The discussion on how to finance the parental leave plan is a clear example: Abbot was substantially unable or unwilling to provide details on how the full cost of the initiative would be covered.

More generally, Rudd was successful in stressing that the Coalition advances proposals that involve significant budget cuts and/or reallocation of resources, but it does not say exactly what is going to be cut. Given the precedent of the Newman government in Queensland, this is indeed something voters should be worried about.


David Maguire, Associate Professor of Journalism and Media Management at Murdoch University

You can’t fight Mr Rudd on showmanship and Mr Abbott didn’t try to when the PM came out strong, pumped, animated and well in command of his non-verbal behavior. He seemed intent on executing an in-your-face strategy, at one point quite literally.

Abbott looked stilted in comparison as a result. He maintained the cool, calm and collected approach up to when he asked in the early stages of question time: “does this guy ever shut-up?”

But after the initial flourishes, the two settled back into a more measured engagement, with more playing of the policy and strategy ball rather than the man. There was no knockout blow and no surprises in their answers to the wide range of questions. They traded tit-for-tat attacks on the records of previous governments and trotted out policy sound bites.

This was a more relaxed format and more conducive to the leaders displaying a modicum of personality, resulting in better viewing.


Marcus O'Donnell, Lecturer, Program Convenor, Journalism at University of Wollongong

There was nothing surprising in this debate that enlightened us on our electoral choices. So once again it came down to how it felt.

But maybe it’s a game changer, by virtue of not changing the game, and the game being a lot harder to change after this half way point.

Rudd really need this to be a breakthrough moment and it didn’t happen. He got no real traction even though he went hard at Abbott and demanded: What are you going to cut?

The PM had some good moments (“put your hands up if you earn $150,0000?”) where he really connected with the audience, but too often he looked uncomfortable and antsy. Abbott remained calm and looked surprisingly at ease.

Political strategist and former Blair and Gillard adviser John McTernan wrote yesterday that the election was a choice of two futures:

Kevin Rudd has to project a clear picture of Australia’s future with Labor….Parties of the centre-left can only win with a compelling vision based on future and fairness.

This was the hymn Rudd opened with and came back to with a final chorus but for much of the night he was trying desperately to score his points by attacking Abbott’s policies. Abbott didn’t get tripped up.


Joseph Fernandez, Head of Department, Journalism at Curtin University

Rather oddly, the scorecard for the people’s forum with the prime minister Kevin Rudd and opposition leader Tony Abbott dealt a verdict in which a non-party to the debate – journalists – came out losers.

As Mr Abbott put it: “People One, Journos Nil”.

That remark drew this lament on the SMH’s live feed on the debate: “How very hurtful for us reptiles of the press”.

Unlike interrogation by journalists, however, the questions from the audience were predictable, covering planned cuts to public services, handouts to businesses, the paid parental leave scheme, the planned tax on savings deposits, WorkChoices, asylum seeker policy, environmental protection, 457 visas, housing affordability, and same sex marriage.

One question that broke the mould, however, concerned the poor calibre of some of the candidates fielded by the parties. Both leaders conceded this was a valid question.

While this point is not at the forefront of election concerns in this campaign it merits close consideration.

Join the conversation

26 Comments sorted by

  1. Geoff Anderson

    Brain Surgeon

    Rudd won the debate. Abbott reminded us what an aggro guy really he is. Telling people to shut up during a debate is not cool. Reminded me of when he swore at Nicola Roxon in the 2007 Health debate.

    It shows he is a slow thinker. When losing a debate he lashes out. Hitting people is frowned upon these days so swearing has replaced it as the reaction of losers.

    It makes you wonder has he would react in a crisis, be it economic, international, environmental or political. Our country needs a leader who can cope under pressure, not snap.

    John Howard used to wonder if the Opposition Leader had "the ticker" for the top job. It seems Mr Abbott does not.

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    1. David Thompson

      Marketing Research

      In reply to Geoff Anderson

      "Reminded me of when he swore at Nicola Roxon in the 2007 Health debate.?"
      Geoff, unfortunately, your view on the debate - which I missed - has been completely nullified by this tedious lie.
      But if YOU think politicial leaders swearing at women is sign of slow thinking, you won't be voting for Rudd.

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    2. Greg North

      Retired Engineer

      In reply to Geoff Anderson

      First of all Geoff, your own brain could have been elsewhere for Tony askeda question about Rudd's verbosity and did not tell him to shit up and secondly he never swore at Nicola Roxon where the actual transcript was
      Roxon: You were late (obvious )
      Abbott: I had an engagement in Sydney and there were flight delays
      Roxon: You could have made it if you had wanted to.
      Aboott: That's Bullshit.

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    3. David Thompson

      Marketing Research

      In reply to Salem

      Salem, I absolutely do remember, as I watched it live on TV, myself. Firstly, no I do not consider "bullshit" swearing. What sort of Australian would? Secondly, he said it AFTER the debate.

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  2. John Holmes

    logged in via Facebook

    Rudd was by far the best communicator in this debate, I was grateful that he called Abbott out numerous times, asking him to give us answers to the cuts, but once again Abbott refused to actually answer the questions.

    Abbott's ability to repeat the same line several times in one sentence was astounding, good time waster, god forbid if he is our next PM

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  3. Mike Puleston
    Mike Puleston is a Friend of The Conversation.

    Citizen

    The final "debate" should include Christine Milne. Australia does not have a binary political system. Milne would raise issues that the boys' club of Abbott and Rudd are avoiding. On and on they go with this waffle about tax cuts and economic management, when everyone knows that as soon as either is elected he will ignore what he said before the election and do what pragmatism dictates.

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    1. Michael Shand
      Michael Shand is a Friend of The Conversation.

      Software Tester

      In reply to Mike Puleston

      This will never happen, not one article in the conversation has suggested this, not one, they all want to keep the system closed and keep minor parties and independents from speaking

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    2. Sean Rintel

      Lecturer in Strategic Communication at University of Queensland

      In reply to Mike Puleston

      I agree with you, and Messrs Shand, Thacker, and Newton below, that this was an extremely contained binary forum. I would certainly also prefer to see more forums with more representation of the minor parties. In fact, that point was made by many of the other parties on Twitter as the debate began. E.g. The Greens' @SenatorLudlam tweeted: "this #debate would be more fun with @senatormilne wouldn't it #ausvotes".

      He also noted that social media would be a place to watch for those with alternative…

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    3. Michael Shand
      Michael Shand is a Friend of The Conversation.

      Software Tester

      In reply to Sean Rintel

      That's a brilliant Idea, your profile says that you are a lecturer at the University of Queensland - that means you are eligable to write an article for The Conversation.

      I would love to read even a speculative fiction article about how these debates could be improved - granted one was already posted on TC but failed to mention or see any issue with the "binary format" - a great turn of phrase

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    4. john davies
      john davies is a Friend of The Conversation.

      retired engineer

      In reply to Eric Thacker

      Please, don't forget Warren Truss, the leader of the other Party in the forthcoming minority government!

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  4. Emilie Choukry

    artist

    The Debate if one could possibly call it a debate was far more entertaining than the previous yawn.

    I felt it was fair and Tony was only trying to level the playing field with his ungracious comment about Kevin because hasn't Tony's own party already told him to shut-up as best he can in the run up to the election.

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  5. Peter Burges

    logged in via email @gmail.com

    More of a debate than the first interaction, but did not have the flavour of a real town hall bash as the audience was pretty restrained/respectful throughout and the questions were obviously vetted.

    I thought, on the whole, it went to Rudd who substantiated his arguments better and had a few telling scores re paid parental leave, climate change, and cuts by the Queensland Government. Abbott was pretty calm throughout but showed that he must have felt that Rudd was making points against him when…

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  6. Roger Davidson

    Student

    The PM had some good moments (“put your hands up if you earn $150,0000?”)

    Are you kidding? That was a cringe worthy moment. Who is going to put up their hand and disclose their salary?

    A foolish move. He sounded like an inexperienced lecturer asking question in the lecture hall and getting nothing.

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  7. John Newton

    Author Journalist

    There was as before a very small polite elephant in the room. An elephant with a compassionate refugee policy, a real carbon abatement policy and much more to discuss. As usual the Big Boys don't want Christine Milne spoiling their game.

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    1. Michael Shand
      Michael Shand is a Friend of The Conversation.

      Software Tester

      In reply to John Newton

      The Laboural party would never allow this and neither would the academics that write for The Conversation, they have already branded the greens as extremists and the idea that even the political editor of TC would allow such an article or suggestion to be made is silly

      That would be abhorrent to the establishment

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  8. C Allan
    C Allan is a Friend of The Conversation.

    logged in via email @gmail.com

    Abbott's "shut up" comment shows loss of composure. He simply can't think quickly, and has a history of prevaricating or just remaining silent, lost for words for often excrutiating lengths of time when asked an unexpected question. How is he going to react if there is a national crisis?

    The spectre of this man as PM is frightening to me. The measure of a leader is not in good times, rather, a true leader is set apart by how they react in a crisis.

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  9. James Edsall

    Consultant

    As usual - Abbott said nothing. Twice.
    His tedious repetition of blather is no substitute for actual policy. Just as his 'investors will be better off' under a coalition is a dud offer against an actual policy to make them 1.6 billion dollars worse off. as the old saying going, a promise is not money in the bank.

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  10. John Pollard

    Casual Observer

    How Rudd could have been sucked into this debate via Murdoch's Sky channel is a mystery to me. Perhaps the fact that the viewing audience would be minimal was a consideration.Despite his pyrrhic victory, his economic based attack is wafer thin. I am amazed that he doesn't confront Abbott on real issues of difference between them. For example, the Republic wedge would be a serious problem for the Libs. Rudd should announce that he is committed to revisiting the Republic issue during his first term. This is a better tack than " how you gunna pay for it?" There is little other difference between the two parties as they both claim the middle ground. We need real differentiation which will be achieved only when Labor returns to it's roots and argues for social change rather than playing Howard's game of economic rationalism.

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  11. Frank Moore

    Consultant

    The essential problem with these "debates" is the focus on dubious promises and shopping lists aka "policies" vs a straight forward appraisal of the government's performance over the last term. Governments ought be held to account for their actions - not the words of their spin doctors / pr reptiles.
    Whilst this debate flowed - at least 5 people drowned off Christmas Island as a direct result of Rudd's hubris filled decision to dismantle the Pacific Solution.
    That's 5 more bodies added to this…

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  12. Michael Shand
    Michael Shand is a Friend of The Conversation.

    Software Tester

    And not one expert thought it was strange that this debate was closed to everyone except the major party's

    Not one suggested we include a variety of voices

    They all want to sing the praises of the establishment and corrupt corporatocracy that is the 2 party preferred system

    What happened to our media watch dogs

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  13. David Thompson

    Marketing Research

    Um, the very definition of a "people's forum" is that academics are the LEAST "expert". So why print their uninformed opinions?

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